I was curious about something. Can anyone explain it for me?
In Olenna's last scene interacting with Jamie, she said that she had done terrible things to protect her family like being responsible for King Joffrey's death. But why though?? What did she have to gain by killing Joffrey? Her grand daughter never married Joffrey anyway.
Because he was an evil little shit and she knew what he had done to Sansa and she didn't want that fate for her niece.
shareI guess you could describe her as delightfully evil. Lol
I agree about Joffrey. Hewas an awful evil little maniac. No doubt due to him being a product of incest. He was bound to be murdered regardless because he was a terribly cruel king.
I don't see Olenna as evil though, Jamie Lannister is probably a worse person than she is.
share@Barclays (350) lol! His being a product of incest had nothing to do with him being an evil little twerp. It was largely because of the way he was brought up by his crazy evil mother and probably himself. This was was specifically alluded to by Kevan Lannister. Tommen and Marceyla were fine so the silly "evil because of incest" idea is erroneous.
shareIt's possible that at least one child of incest is a bad apple that spilled the bunch.
shareDiscussing "possibilities" is one thing but asserting this idea of "Incest = Why Joffrey is evil" as if it's based on anything more than wild speculation is disingenuous
shareI don't know why you disagree because you can't rule out the bloodline factor. It's often the cause in lots of movies. Deliverance started the trend.
shareSorry but your rationale for coming to these conclusions are quite arbitrary & just don't make a whole lot of sense.
shareSorry for the confusion. What I meant by making a correlation between incest= evil, is based on how incest has been portrayed in some movies.
Granted, in those movies, the depiction of evil inbred are typically backwoods hillbillies but whose to say that George R.R Martin didn't have that idea in mind when he created the Lannisters? Joffrey isn't the only evil Lannister. Cersei most definitely is and Jamie used to be before his experience as a prisoner and losing his hand changed his perspective on life. This is a fiction-fantasy genre TV series, so bending the rules of reality is to be expected. Right?
In real life, inbreeding might not cause evil children but in fiction it often is depicted as such. So try to think about it along those lines. Thanks.
Good Correction. Now your point has been validated. Incest has existed for some time yet there is no evidence that children born from it are evil.
shareSJW, I don't understand why this is such a big freaking deal to you people? It's just a fantasy TV series with fictional characters. Get over what I said. It's not as if we are talking about real life so sorry that you were a product of incest and now you feel compelled to correct any stigmas whether real or in a imagined TV series.
shareWell Joffery and his family were always taunted with incest jokes by those who hated them. If anything, that's where his bitterness comes from. I can see where you're coming from.
shareSJW? lol! Not sure what that could possibly have to do with anything. Not it's not a big deal but a simple matter of challenging the fairly bold assertion of "Joffrey being a product of incest = evil" that just wasn't really supported by anything. You have evolved your position into a more generalized & reasonable theory of incest depicted in fiction but the critique of your original statement is still valid.
shareLol! Valid to whom? A SJW like you?
shareOkay now I'm back to my initial gut feeling that I'm either dealing with someone hopelessly confused or trolling. Perhaps a little of both. Do you even know what a SJW is? If you did you would see that it's usage here makes even less sense than your Joffrey theory.
shareYeah I know what SJW means. It means Social Justice Warrior. That's what you're doing when you defend Joffrey's evilness not being part of his incestuous background. In fiction, incest makes you evil. Everyone knows that. The fact that you're arguing against that makes you a Social Justice Warrior because why else would you be arguing with me?
shareLooks like you're back to square one again. You've already been given examples of why your Joffrey theory just isn't supported. Like I said confused and/or trolling as you're just repeating the same thing at this point along with trying to divert/muddle the conversation with this nonsense about SJW, void of context that actually makes sense, however it's a free internet so by all means do as you will.
shareYou're right. I shouldn't have to repeat myself. If you don't get it it is your problem. Every fictional movie or tv show depicts incest as evil. Not my fault you never paid attention. I'm through with this conversation. You're wasting my time and muddling up an otherwise nice thread.
shareIt was a nickpick but a legitimate one that you couldn't really justify in the end and you're right it isn't worth going around in circles about.
shareIt's commonly believed in Westeros that the incestuous marriages of the Targaryens are the cause of that family's periodic insanity.
"Every time a new Targaryen is born, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."
It was indeed suggested that the Targaryans carry some sort of "crazy gene" implied to be at least somewhat due to generations of inbreeding. "Crazy" but not necessarily evil though Aerys was certainly both. The situation with the Lannisters is quite different for two reasons. 1. Lannisters don't have a history of inbreeding. It was a one off thing. 2. Joffrey was an evil moron but "mad/crazy" doesn't accurately describe him.
There is also an unusually high number of characters who are products of incest in this series and nearly all of them are interestingly among the most well adjusted/normal.
Joffrey was an unreliable, untrustworthy, vicious little monster. As a person, Olenna didn't want her granddaughter Margaery being chained to him for life and suffering the abuse that Sansa had. And as a politician, she preferred Tommen as the more compliant, mild and reliable king, who would not only be more receptive to Tyrell influence but would preside over greater stability than the unpredictable Joffrey.
shareI don't think Margaery would have suffered as Sansa did. She was actually doing pretty well gently manipulating Joffrey.
But Joffrey needed killing all the same.
She was doing well at the time, but if I were Olenna, I wouldn't bet on that working forever. She hadn't been around him long yet. With the way Joffrey was, eventually things might have gone bad.
Besides which, stability would be a concern; a leader like Joffrey would only provoke more rebellions as time went by (which would become a pain for House Tyrell as allies of the crown), and if Joffrey were overthrown, Margaery would be overthrown with him and could expect some horrible fate for being his queen.
She was as good with Joffrey as anyone could be, but sooner or he would have started abusing her (probably sooner, Cercei would have encouraged it).
So Olenna thought she was doing he right thing for both her grandchild and all Westeros, and she was almost right. If she'd given Cersei a dose as well, everything would have been fine.
Margaery did marry Joffrey in the purple wedding. But he was poisoned before the marriage was consummated.
Oleanna could see that Joffrey could be overthrown by disgruntled subjects-- just as the "mad King" had been. And she could not keep Margaery safe. Once Margaery had given birth to an heir, her usefulness would have plummeted in his opinion. Joffrey was incapable of love.
He was capable of love, he wasn't a psychopath like Ramsey. Even though he was a terrible person he likely wasn't born that way. Cersei is why he was a jerk as well as Roberts lack of parenting. He was worse because he was given power and because of his lack of structure he was did what he wanted. His treatment of Sansa stemmed from the incident that occured with Arya and the butcher boy. He was shown to be a coward and weak and after that their relationship was doomed. Also, the fact Sansa father rebelled against him and labled him a bastard, he does not believe that Jamie is his father so his anger towards Ned was justified from his point of view. He was capable of love as he did love Robert and Cersei, he was just disrespectful towards her.
shareAre we talking about the same person here? The same boy who ordered the murders of innocent children because they just happened to be the bastards of his horny, irresponsible lout of a "father," delighted in killing and torturing prostitutes, and got off on showing Sansa her father's head on a spike after viciously humiliating and executing him?
This little bastard you claim is "capable of love"? NO. Joffrey wasn't as bad as Ramsey. But, that does NOT mean he wasn't a vicious bastard, psychopath, and a hideous monster all the same.
Joffrey was a sociopath not a psychopath, there are big differences.You are choosing to extremes and act as if i said he was a good boy. It is clear in. The show and the book has the character loving his father. The book Joffrey loves, respects and somewhat fears his mother. Show Joffrey an ass to everyone except Robert. Nowhere did I deny his cruelty or his overall evilness. Take a few minutes to think before engaging me.
sharePoint one, you're getting offtopic by talking about book Joffrey. Whereas most (if not all these posts) are referring to Show Joffrey.
Two: while there is a difference between sociopath and psychopath, it's minuscule at best, not "big."
Three: I didn't need to take anymore time to think about what I was going to post to you. I stand by what I said before. There is evidence that (Show) Joffrey is very much a psychopath in the sense:
1. He loves no one, but himself. Even the person he arguably has the strongest relationship with, his mother, he isn't above looking down on or threatening her without batting an eyelash. Whereas if he was a sociopath, he might've at least hesitated or shown some feeling for her now and then- which never did.
2. While not terribly bright, he can be very devious when he needs to be. Such as misleading the crowd into thinking he was going to grant mercy to Ned Stark, when he never had any such intention. Or secretly ordering the killing of his bastard half siblings and making it look as if his mother may been responsible.
Wow, you can write a lot while managing to say absolutely nothing.
I mention the book character as the show Joffrey is based off the book, not irrelevant.
1. Yes there is a big difference between a sociopath and a psychopath. So, I will also add that you do some research or at the very least a quick google search before trying to challenge my post. He was clearly genuinely distressed when Robert was dying and he was clutching his hand until he was told to leave. With Cersei he threatened her because he thinks or knows that she wont do anything. He is a coward and only threatens those he knows will not be able to do anything and most of the time they are empty threats. Had Cersei not looked fearful after slapping him he likely would not have made the empty threat. So I wil reiterate, he does have the capacity to love.
2. Speaking of irrelevancy, what the hell does his method of presenting his order the execution of Ned relevant? We know he is cruel and he was aiming his cruelty at a man he believed was trying to take away his throne and deem him a bastard child of Cersei and Jaimie. The extremes of his cruelty suggests nothing about his emotional abilities towards those he liked.
3. How exactly did he make it look like Cersei killed the bastards? All we hear is Tyrion accuse her of it as hee merely assumed it was her.
Wow, you can write a lot while managing to say absolutely nothing.
I mention the book character as the show Joffrey is based off the book, not irrelevant.
1. Yes there is a big difference between a sociopath and a psychopath. So, I will also add that you do some research or at the very least a quick google search before trying to challenge my post. He was clearly genuinely distressed when Robert was dying and he was clutching his hand until he was told to leave. With Cersei he threatened her because he thinks or knows that she wont do anything. He is a coward and only threatens those he knows will not be able to do anything and most of the time they are empty threats. Had Cersei not looked fearful after slapping him he likely would not have made the empty threat. So I wil reiterate, he does have the capacity to love.
2. Speaking of irrelevancy, what the hell does his method of presenting his order the execution of Ned relevant? We know he is cruel and he was aiming his cruelty at a man he believed was trying to take away his throne and deem him a bastard child of Cersei and Jaimie. The extremes of his cruelty suggests nothing about his emotional abilities towards those he liked.
3. How exactly did he make it look like Cersei killed the bastards? All we hear is Tyrion accuse her of it as hee merely assumed it was her.
Wow, you can write a lot while managing to say absolutely nothing.
Yeah, rejected. I have backed my up my argument thoroughly with facts and you have done....what? An arrogant prick am I? Maybe, but I rather be an arrogant prick than an overly confident dumbass who is four days late to once again write words while saying absolutely nothing. So I will once again tell you to prepare before trying(poorly) to challenge me..
shareOleanna found out from Sansa how much of a sadist Joffrey was. It was too late to back out of the engagement. After she had him killed, Oleanna said she wouldn't have her granddaughter stay with such a monster.
BTW, her granddaughter did marry Joffrey.
Okay thanks. Now I think I remember the meeting between Olenna, Margery and Sansa where Olenna and Margery were trying to get more info about King Joffrey from Sansa.
shareHere's another question about her last confession... Why did she take full credit for killing Joffrey? Littlefinger was her co-conspirator, doesn't he deserve some of the credit?
Well, maybe she wanted to give him room to have a go at toppling Cersei. You gotta love the old gal, she was scheming and misdirecting with her last breath!
It was probably Oleanna's idea, but she needed Little Finger to carry it out. At least, she didn't throw him under the bus.
I keep wondering if Jaime really put poison in that drink or was it a trick. If not Little Finger and Oleanna are messed up since Cersei will torture the complete truth out of her.
Well, Olenna knew her time was up. If Cersei was going to be the person most responsible for her death, I suppose it makes sense that she would want Cersei to know that she was the person most responsible for her son's death. No need to throw someone else under the bus if she wants to take full credit for the sting of that information.
What's a curiosity to me is if Jaime will relay that information. I'm sure that Cersei's hatred for Tyrion will never die, but she would then know that her anger and focus over Joffrey's death was misplaced on the wrong people (Tyrion and Sansa). She'd probably feel (even more so) justified in getting Margaery and Loras killed, but I'd imagine that this information will definitely mess with her. Her assumption ( or desire) for Tyrion to be the culprit is what got Oberyn killed, which turned into the primary motivation that got Marcella killed. Cersei will have been the primary factor in at least two of her children's deaths, although I have doubts that she'd ever see it that way. She'd probably be supremely pissed that she didn't get to kill Olenna the way that she wanted to.
I have a weird feeling that Jaime is going to keep that information to himself for fear that it will drive Cersei even further off the deep end. Tyrion is still responsible for their father's death, and is aligned with their enemy, so a hatred is still justified; and Sansa isn't a primary or immediate focus for them (yet). The more I think about it the more I think that information was meant to narratively and solely affect Jaime going forward rather than what it would have done to affect Cersei.
I don't think Olenna's confession will affect Cersei much. I won't budge her conviction that Tyrion was behind Joffrey's death, if she believes the report at all she'll believe that Lady Tyrell was part of Tyrion and Sansa's conspiracy, not that Tyrion and Sansa were innocent. If it affects her at all on a personal level, it'll be to forgive herself for killing her daughter-in-law the Tyrell, even if doing so drove her last son to suicide.
No, I think the real effect will be on Jamie. He'll realize he was at least partly wrong about Tyrion, and that Cersei's fixation on their little brother is totally irrational. It's going to drive a wedge between them, which was undoubtedly Olenna's intention.
Well said. Cersei is too far gone and this information won't change her mind. Jamie is another matter.
shareLike others have said because Joffrey was a sadistic evil bastard and she knew he would likely torture or even kill Margaery.
share