'They don't have enough men for a siege. All we have to do is wait.' - Game of Thrones (2011) Discussion

[–] CheruthCutestory 8 years ago

They didn't have anything close to 25,000 men. The Vale probably brought about 300 horse. That's it.

They only brought the knights. No foot soldiers. No archers.

No wonder Jesus quit carpentry. It's so much harder than talking on a donkey.

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[–] gabste 8 years ago

^this

"เ ђєคг๔ เt ฬคร ๒єรt t๏ кєєק א๏ยг єภє๓เєร ςl๏รє."
"ฬђ๏єשєг รคเ๔ tђคt ๔เ๔ภ't ђคשє ๓คภא єภє๓เєร."

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[–] khons 8 years ago

The entire Vale has about that size of army. It appeared Baelish took a few thousand of the knights, probably the elite cavalry. Still though, it's enough to take Winterfell.

I imagine support and supplies were nearby to handle that possible outcome of a siege.

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[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Wolf_boi 8 years ago

From what I remember Jon and Sansa had about 5 thousand guys. The knights of the vale would be an extra thousand maybe. Whether they could maintain a siege cordon would depend really on how many guys Ramsay had left inside the castle and whether they were still in the mood to follow him. On the face of it though he didn't seem to have many just a couple of dozen, for instance it appeared he was alone when he rode back to the castle implying he was the sole individual to escape the battle (which as an aside did seem peculiar as you'd think he would have had some bodyguard with him who had horses too - possibly they couldn't get on their horses in time to escape but in the end it was another of those annoying things not properly explained).

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[–] Leo_ofRedKeep 8 years ago

The whole battle is complete tactical nonsense, none of it is realistic.
There is no point trying to understand or discuss it.

Long may she reign http://i.imgur.com/BxJJSJZ.jpg

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[–] Wolf_boi 8 years ago

Actually I thought that after Jon's army had charged forwards Ramsays envelopment strategy was quite smart. If they'd have given Jon's army a chance to retreat it could have taken weeks to hunt down all the remnants, Jon & Sansa could even have retreated to the coast and gotten ship across the narrow sea and with them both still alive somewhere plotting further mischief Ramsay would never be fully secure.

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[–] Leo_ofRedKeep 8 years ago

Watch this to see how ridiculously stupid the whole battle was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl0SFDMSFFY

Long may she reign http://i.imgur.com/BxJJSJZ.jpg

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[–] Wolf_boi 8 years ago

Afraid that's a bit too long for me. And saying that I don't mean I couldn't sit and watch it if I wanted I just mean that I'd probably get bored by it. Also it seems to be discussing the whole battle whereas I was referring to only one specific aspect, therefore most of what he says will probably just be pointing out things I've already noticed as badly done rather than address the part where I thought the tactics made sense.

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[–] Leo_ofRedKeep 8 years ago

Yes, it's too long, of course. The point is that there are so many points to make about illogical or unreallistic things in this battle that yours is just one amongst many.

That stuff never needed to make sense, never was meant to and, as a consequence, is not worth discussing under this point of view.

Long may she reign http://i.imgur.com/BxJJSJZ.jpg

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[–] Wolf_boi 8 years ago

Yes, it's too long, of course. The point is that there are so many points to make about illogical or unreallistic things in this battle that yours is just one amongst many.

But what I said was that I thought his idea was realistic.

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[–] articappleman 8 years ago

agreed the battle was *beep* awful, the vale riding in at the end was cringey as *beep*

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[–] WhenGreyjoysCry 8 years ago

While some of the visuals were awkward, Ramsay's strategy was brilliant. D&D said they based it on the battle of Cannae, and clearly Ramsay played the role of Hannibal of Carthage. The outcome would have been the same as for the real Hannibal had it not been for a deus ex machina that saved Jon from his own boneheadedness.

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[–] Leo_ofRedKeep 8 years ago

That pile of body must have been the most ridiculous thing I saw in a battle.

Long may she reign http://i.imgur.com/BxJJSJZ.jpg

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[–] Wolf_boi 8 years ago

I agree it was totally stupid. Though Ramsay wasting all his cavalry like that in the first place probably runs it a close second.

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[–] CheruthCutestory 8 years ago

No, they meant Jon and Sansa's side was Hannibal with the Vale being the reserved flank. Which is silly because it wasn't planned.

Ramsay's was nothing like Hannibal. He allowed all of his men to be slaughtered before bringing in the other flank.

No wonder Jesus quit carpentry. It's so much harder than talking on a donkey.

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[–] Wolf_boi 8 years ago

No it was Ramsay's army. I don't think they were suggesting Ramsay was like Hannibal in terms of genius they were just saying that the idea for him to encircle Jon's force was based on what happened at Cannae.

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[–] Leo_ofRedKeep 8 years ago

That moment when Jon and the wildlings look in amazement at the Bolton men casually walking around them carrying long planks was the funniest thing.

"Oh look, Tormund, this is the Bolton sigil. I've never seen so many men carrying it at once. I wonder what they are doing. I suppose it's for decoration, like the flaming crosses at the beginning.
- Is this what you southerners do? Decorating the battlefield? Ygritte said you were banging drums too. Will that come in later?
- I don't know. They've got some coming from the other side too. The maesters call that symmetry.
(Tormund stares blankly at the word)
I’ve never seen so many lances either. We should get the horses in case they want to have a tourney.
- How do we get to the horses now? There are planks all around us.
- Oh, sh.t!”

Some people say it's the best episode ever.

Long may she reign http://i.imgur.com/BxJJSJZ.jpg

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[–] Wolf_boi 8 years ago

I agree that part was pretty dumb.

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[–] WhenGreyjoysCry 8 years ago

No. Ramsay goaded John's army into a foolish frontal assault and then flanked and encircled them, just like Hannibal did to the Romans at the Battle of Cannae. Only tangible difference is the Romans didn't have a division of heavy cavalry appear out of thin air to break through the Carthagian lines and bail them out.

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[–] Haktima14 8 years ago

👆

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[–] CheruthCutestory 8 years ago

I'll find it but there is a thing on reddit that analyzed the scene right before Jon was surrounded (and then the Vale comes). It shows that almost all the men standing are Stark men. Jon basically slaughtered all the Bolton men. With help from Ramsay who was firing arrows at them indiscriminately and his men were closer to them. But then there was the Karstark reinforcements who surroundes them.

So, almost all Ramsay's original force was killed and only about 1/4 of Jon's men.

And there were only a few hundred knights. They were valuable because they are cavalry. And because they could sweep in and surround/mow down the Boltons. But they never offered great numbers.

No wonder Jesus quit carpentry. It's so much harder than talking on a donkey.

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