I've been thinking about how Austen emphasized contrasts in Sense and Sensibility. She drew these contrasts to create her themes of satire in her novel. The stark differences between characters, the extremes of their situations, all serve to emphasize the other. She intended to show her readers concentrated distillations, in order to drive home her points.
In recently watching the 2008 adaptation of S&S, and during recent discussion here, and on the S&S 95 board, I've noticed that contrasts were softened in S&S 2008.
I truly enjoy the 2008 mini-series, though I prefer S&S 95. I even own it along with a copy of S&S 95, but I do notice some inherent differences in how each adaptation interpreted Austen's original characters and situations. Here are some examples of what I've noticed. Please, bear with me, this will be a long post.
Marianne's character - In Austen's eyes, she's a hopeless romantic. Head in the clouds, with no real understanding of what is truly important in life. She is guided by emotion, and is unconcerned with consequences. She finds propriety and convention dull. She has a good heart, but her immaturity makes her selfish for the most part, and she's harsh in her judgements of others that don't share her free-spirited sensibilities. She's very certain that her way of seeing things is the only right way.
IMO Wakefield's Marianne is a softer version of Austen's extreme. She's so sweet, and almost childlike with her slight build, and large eyes, she's also adorably pretty. I almost couldn't blame her for being so naive. It seemed as if she were making the standard mistakes that most young persons might. So her behavior didn't stand out at me as willfully foolish as I think Austen intended. We almost understand that she's not ready to grow up, when Austen intended us to realize that Marianne is completely in the wrong.
Winslet's Marianne was more towards the extreme that Austen intended. She's also very pretty, but she has a bit of maturity to her face and figure - that shows the woman within. She looks more young adult than childlike, so her immature behavior clashes with her more grown appearance - which is the contrast that I think Austen finds important. She judges Elinor, Brandon, and even Edward's reserve with a heavily critical eye - and openly speaks it out. "I don't understand her Mama!" She says with frustration about Elinor. She's convinced her way of giving into her emotions, is the "right" way to be. IMO Winslet gives her Marianne a streak of willfullness that puts her closer to the extreme version "sensibility" we're supposed to see. We are supposed to notice how wrong Marianne is, and want her to realize it too.
Marianne's heartbreak and illness - Austen intended Marianne's abandonment by Willoughby, and resulting deathly illness to be a shattering life-altering experience. In many ways, it's supposed to be a near death experience.
In the 2008 adaptation, her heartbreak in being abandoned by Willoughby doesn't seem to be as intense as Austen had written it. She's very disappointed, hurt, and angry, but I don't see her being completely devastated. Physically, she appears the same. Even when she's shown as being ill - her color is normal - she's not bathed in sweat. Wakefield's illness is given very little screen time, and is not shown with the grave severity that it is in the novel. I didn't get the feeling it was to the extreme of being at the brink of death.
In contrast, Winslet's Marianne in the 95 adaptation is completely desolate with the pain of Willoughby's abandonment, and beyond comfort. The depths of her despair are heart-wrenching to see. Physically, she's even pale and weakened by her heartbreak alone - and this is BEFORE she becomes ill. Edward notices it, and remarks upon it too. And the attention paid to Marianne's illness in the 95 adaptation is spot on IMO. The film creates the sense of dread that they could very well lose her. It's made clear to us that her heartbreak was so severe, she's all but lost the will to live. And this is heavily foreshadowed in her earlier conversation with her Mother. She's speaking of her admiration for the tragic Juliet, etc. and she says "To die for love? What could be more glorious!". We feel the real fear that she may die. Marianne is delirious, pale, drenched in sweat, and tossing fitfully in the throes of intense fever. The doctor is very grave in his prognosis. Elinor is clearly nursing her to the point of exhaustion, and her terror at the thought of losing her sister is very dramatic. She begs Marianne to "try", to fight, to live. At one point, Marianne literally looks like a corpse. She's deathly still, and pale to the point of waxiness. Elinor has a very moving scene in which she shows her fear in losing her sister. I like seeing this contrasted to Elinor's wave of relief when she realizes that Marianne's fever has blessedly broken. Again, so much contrast here - from the depth of despair of losing her sister to intense relief. Marianne being the picture of health, to being at deaths door. Contrasts that Austen intended, and which create more interest and impact. Brandon's character - Austen wrote him as a quiet, unassuming, gentleman. Who is much older than Marianne. He appears average on the surface. He's not unattractive, but he's not attractive either. He's not lively, he doesn't stand out. He's pleasant, polite, but not charming or dashing. He's pensive, and melancholy, which we discover is very understandable considering his tragic past. He's presented in a very plain brown wrapper, but Elinor notices quickly, and we are supposed to as well, that inside his deceptively boring exterior, there is a rare, priceless, jewel of a man. It's supposed to be clear to everyone, except Marianne, early on. There's the contrast of Brandon's inner character to his outer appearance. Also, the contrast of Elinor having the important ability of discernment to see his value, and Marianne lacking discernment. There's also the contrast between his subdued manner, and Willougby's dashing charm.
Morrissey's Brandon in S&S 2008, is more assertive than Austen's Brandon. He is not quiet and unassuming at all. He stands out from the start. He is shown to be intrigued by Marianne, and he acts upon it quickly. He has conversation with her that shows his deep understanding of music, and gives her a gift of music when they are in the first stages of acquaintance. He seems to rush over for a visit immediately after making the acquaintance of the Dashwoods. His Brandon displays a decided interest in Marianne, and he seems eager to pursue her company. He also confronts Willoughby regarding his intentions towards Marianne. This is very assertive behavior, though it's intent is noble. He's outwardly confident, and actually pretty dashing. In short, rather than Morrissey's Brandon being presented in a plain brown wrapper, he's packaged with more vitality than Austen's Brandon. He outer appearance and exhibited behavior is not deceptively boring as it should be - he's interesting from the get go. There isn't much contrast between his outer appearance and his inner character, which is supposed to be hidden beneath the surface. And there isn't much discernment needed by Elinor or the audience to see his who the inner Brandon is. His assurance, strength, and deeply felt emotion (that creates the impulsiveness at times), is practically advertised on a billboard in every scene Morissey has. It's almost funny that Marianne doesn't see it. Instead of lacking discernment, she seems to have a illogical prejudice against his age alone, or a blind spot for billboards. Also the virility, and impulsivity of 2008's Brandon does not allow him to contrast against Willoughby as he should. Dominic Cooper is very cute, I like him very much, but his Willoughby compared to Morrissey's Brandon appears boyish. Brandon and Willougby both show impulsiveness - so there's not the stark contrast of restraint vs. acting on emotion. Cooper's Willoughby also doesn't overshadow Brandon like Austen intended. He's nearly overshadowed by Brandon. There isn't the extreme contrast between plain vs. dashing that was at the crux of Austen's Brandon vs. Willoughby. Austen intended us, and Marianne, to learn the important life lesson of "don't judge a book by it's cover", but the impact of that lesson is vastly lessened in 2008, IMO. David Morrissey is a talented actor, and I don't dislike his Brandon - but it's very different from the Brandon that Austen wrote.
I could go on, but this post is like a copy of War and Peace as it is! Thse are only a few examples of things that stood out in regards to which adaptation stays more faithful to the contrasts that Austen intended.
S&S 2008 seems to lessen the impact of those comparisons. It's still an enjoyable, and well-done adaptation IMO, but it's fails to deliver the strength of satirical impact that Austen was so fond of.
IMO, S&S 95 is the superior choice if you truly appreciate the dramatic interest, and wonderful dynamics, that her contrasts of extreme differences effectuate.
Sass, To clarify, the character description of Marianne that I'm basing my thoughts on in my original post, and this post, is the Marianne before Willoughby's heartbreak, and her resulting illness.
Wakefield was actually several years older in 2007, when the S&S miniseries was filmed, than Winslet was in 1995. Wakefield does look quite young, though, and I think she easily passes for a teenager in S&S 2008. Winslet, of course, WAS a teenager, so it makes sense that she would appear very young in the film.
I realize that technically Wakefield was older than Winslet at the time they portrayed their roles, but IMO Wakefield's Marianne appears younger than Winslet's Marianne.
I do take exception to your comments about Wakefield's and Winslet's physical appearance:
When I said Wakefield had a slight build, I was speaking of her frame. She seems to be smaller framed than Winslet in the 2008 production. I was not referring to endowment. I hope you realize that my comments on their physical appearance is in no way a poke at either Wakefield or Winslet. I clearly stated that I find both of them very pretty. Both are slender, and BOTH did a wonderful job with their parts. I was merely attempting to illustrate the impressions of age and maturity that each production gave her character, and the resulting expectations I had regarding their character's behaviors and actions.
I was simply stating that Wakefield's more childlike appearance softened the effect I think Austen wanted us to feel regarding her immature thinking and behavior. It was easier for me to excuse her manner, because she looked so sweet, naive, and young to my eyes...and I think that Austen wanted us to be affected by Marianne's error of judgement more strongly. IMO, Austen wanted to excite our dismay at Marianne's lack of caution, and her inability to see beyond the outer appearances of Brandon and Willoughby.
I was also stating that I felt more frustration with Winslet's Marianne - as I think Austen wanted us to. I expected her to have a bit more understanding because she appeared more as a young adult, rather than more childlike, to my eyes. You mentioned Winslet's Marianne always seemed "put together" regarding her wardrobe, and you're exactly right. That added to my impression that she was a bit older, and in turn that impression made me expect her to behave a little more maturely. So when she was so incredibly foolish in her choices, I felt a stark contrast there.
You went into detail regarding Marianne's wardrobe for both productions. And I agree with your assessment. Wakefield's wardrobe greatly added to her appearance of youth. And yes, when she wore her hair down it resembled her younger sister, Margaret's style - which again added to her appearance of youth.
Winslet's wardrobe, and hair style were a bit more mature looking IMO, more "put together". {as you stated) I also agree with this statement of your's "Most of her outfits DO tend to emphasize her curves a bit more..." All of which added to my impression of her being more of a young adult.
Actually, we seem to agree on my observations regarding the appearance of their respective characters.
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In Winslett's last scene apart from the wedding scene her hair is covered by the bonnet that was worn in the reed cutting scene and her gown is the one worn in the journey from Norland scene. Her hairstyle stays the same, top knot of curls with two side curls falling over her shoulders. And those curls are clearly visible under her bonnet. Sassy her hairstyle and clothes are clearly visible in all her scenes. What movie did you watch?
_____________ I am the Queen of Snark, TStopped said so.
Webrowser, what a wonderful. cogent analysis. Brilliant, in fact. This, it is clear to me (now it is, thank you) that this is a big part of what I meant when I posted that the 2008 lacks salt and tang, compared with the 1995.
The contrasts blur, the parallels are out of alignment, it's a bit flat, a bit fuzzy of focus, comparatively. Not that it hasn't its very good points.
About Marianne, I see voluble exception has been taken to your using the term "slight" about Miss Wakefield. That may be debatable, but she is definitely of small stature (I don't find a height for her, but she is quite noticeably shorter by inches than Hattie Morahan who is 5'8", and in the scene at Allenham, standing opposite Dominic Cooper's 5'9 1/2" inches, she is at least 6" shorter; Winselt is 5'6 1/2"), which absolutely creates an appearance of youth (I'm 5'2", I played a 10 year old in my 30s, and a good number of teenage characters when I was 10 to 20 years older than they).
Another contributory factor is Wakefield's voice. It's certainly pretty, but it is not well-produced, nor fully supported from the diaphragm (listen, you can hear this, compare with Morahan, who possesses an absolutely gorgeous natural vocal instrument, and produces it well, with full diaphragmatic support - "open throat" is sort of a short-hand for what I mean). Wakefield, in essence is speaking in "head-tone," which raises the pitch and almost eliminates resonance; her voice is high and light, a little pinched off, and therefore, childish-sounding, while Winslet's is deeper, richer, more resonant, because she is producing and supporting her voice properly. I don't think Winslet's instrument is necessarily better, by nature, than Wakefield's - it's the skill in the production and use of it that is the difference here. And full vocal production adds weight, and authority, to any performance. One reason I will re-watch the mini-series again (well, I may have to fast-forward some) will be for the pleasure of listening to Hattie Morahan and Janet McTeer speak.
Years of vocal training, speech, voice production, singing, folk to Broadway to (a little) opera. You hear things.
Technical acting rant over.
Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.
Webrowser, what a wonderful. cogent analysis. Brilliant, in fact. This, it is clear to me (now it is, thank you) that this is a big part of what I meant when I posted that the 2008 lacks salt and tang, compared with the 1995.
Thank you locus! What a lovely compliment. You are too kind. Salt and tang, I love that! The dramatic contrasts add quite a bit of flavor don't they? Austen had a gift for it. I think it's one of the things that set her novels apart. And one of my favorite things about S&S 95.
About Marianne, I see voluble exception has been taken to your using the term "slight" about Miss Wakefield.
Yes, goodness. I had no way thought that was offensive by any means. I was referring to her frame. They are both slender, but Wakefield seems to have a smaller frame than Winslet. Sass commented that both are well endowed, which had nothing to do with my meaning. I was referring to the differences in their overall build, or frame.
Now that you mention it, I agree in the differences in their voices. I don't have the finely trained ear that you do, but Wakefield's voice is higher pitched than Winslet's. Having a higher toned voice gives a younger impression, whereas a deeper tone can give the appearance of being older. Very nice observation. Thank you!
I find it fascinating that you're able to enjoy, not only the dialogue, but the delivery of it as keenly as you do. How wonderful to have that ability.
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Hi guys, I did a little research about Wakefield's height. She is 5ft 4 compared to Winslett's 5ft 6. Cooper is 5ft 8 compared to Morrisey's 6ft 3. Wow, Morrisey was nearly 12 inches taller than Wakefield. No wonder she looked like a child next to him as and so did Cooper for that matter.
The points about contrasts are very good. Of course the strongest contrasts in the books is Marianne's Sensibility to Elinor's Sense. I looked up the definition of Sensibility. It means the quality of being able to appreciate and respond to complex emotional or aesthetic influences; sensitivity. Now the question I would like answered is is that what Austen meant? Marianne is openness itself, and she doesn't believe in hiding her emotions, her responsiveness and her appreciation of the natural world. This would make her a 'Romantic', as opposed to being romantic. This difference is clearly seen in the novel, but is it made that clear in the two productions? Does either of the productions show Marianne's journey from her excess of sensibility to the sensible wife and presumably mother, who is the Patroness of a village. With all that would entail. Is Elinor's journey from the sensible sister who budgets and counts pennies, to the girl who marries a poor(ish) man and counts the world well lost for love? What do you think? Do you thinkg either of these two productions concentrates enough on the most important love in the the books, the love each sister has for the other? And what part do you think the men in either production shows repect for their relationship?
_____________ I am the Queen of Snark, TStopped said so.
Now this is an interesting question. Yes, I think Austen's Marianne is quite definitely a "Romantic." I also think it is hard for an adaptation NOT to at least suggest this.
Marianne in the novel often speaks in heightened language, and in both the 1995 and I believe the 2008, we hear her exclaim, "Is there any felicity in the world superior to this?" as she drags Margaret behind her on the long walk. The 1995 film gives us Marianne's correction of Edward's poetry reading with such fervour as to wake the sleeping Margaret (nice, funny bit, that). It isn't stressed; I don't think many in today's audience have much grasp of the difference between being romantically-oriented and being a real "Romantic." I think the suggestion clearer in the 1995, but I also think there is at least a hint in the 2008.
I would say this illustrates the difference - Emma Woodhouse is very romantic, though she thinks she isn't. She daydreams about romance - even if it's always about other people. But she is not at all a "Romantic," as Marianne certainly is. Emma doesn't swoon over picturesque ruins, she looks out over Donwell's neat, useful farms with satisfaction - "English verdure, English culture, sweet to the eye and to the mind."
Certainly the reversal of the two sisters' fates - I've commented on this - is deliberate. Elinor, who has suffered only as a result of others' misjudgments and errors, gets the happy marriage with her first and only love, which Marianne assumed was the only fate possible for her. Elinor, though, has never really wanted "the world," so her modest dreams are fully answered - after she, with great practicality, persuades Edward to "make nice" to Mamma Ferrars.
Marianne marries a man for whom she feels the sentiments she mocked Elinor for expressing about Edward - she thinks very highly of, greatly esteems, and likes Colonel Brandon when they marry. Her romantic dreams have turned to ash; but she has found a genuine, if quieter, happiness in reality, with a man she knows she may truly trust and rely on, and whose love for her cannot but be, in the end, answered with her own.
I don't know if one could really make a filmed adaptation which kept the sister's relationship quite as much the center as it is in the novel - our audiences want the romance, and the men, to be more present. We know that Ang Lee considered the sister's "love story" the central one in the 1995 film, and I think this is clear; equally clearly, this relationship gives place to Marianne and Colonel Action Figure in the 2008.
Well, we see Edward in the 1995 so genuinely concerned at Marianne's appearance, in the midst of his horrible embarrassment in the company of both Lucy and Elinor; both Edwards seem aware of, and respectful toward, the Dashwood ladies' mutual bonds of affection.
Rickman's Brandon is quite friendly with Elinor, as well as Margaret; Mrs. Dashwood thinks highly of him, and we know he has great delicacy - I love his refusal to be the one to offer the Delaford living to Edward, not wishing to ruffle or prick Edward's pride. I do not believe this Brandon will be anything but accommodating to all the family relationships he is marrying himself into the middle of.
The "wild horse" element in the 2008 Brandon-Marianne arc invites speculation as to whether he is "cutting her out of the herd."
Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.
Hi guys, I did a little research about Wakefield's height. She is 5ft 4 compared to Winslett's 5ft 6. Cooper is 5ft 8 compared to Morrisey's 6ft 3. Wow, Morrisey was nearly 12 inches taller than Wakefield. No wonder she looked like a child next to him as and so did Cooper for that matter.
Thank you for the information Summer, I was wondering if my impression Wakefield's overall frame being a bit smaller than Winslet's was merely due to her costumes, the way she was filmed, or if she were actually petite - which your information indicates. She is within the range of petite (which is commonly considered 5'5" tall and below). A couple inches of height can make a difference, especially if juxtaposed against taller persons. Morrisey is quite tall, a couple of inches taller than my own husband, as a matter of fact. And Cooper's lesser height certainly adds to his boyish appearance next to Morrissey - he's actually about my height. That explains another part of my impressions of how their characters appeared compared to one another.
The points about contrasts are very good.
Thank you. I'm glad you found them of interest.
Of course the strongest contrasts in the books is Marianne's Sensibility to Elinor's Sense.
I completely agree. They could also be referred to as Practicality vs. Paroxysm. Their extreme differences make the dynamics of their relationship so interesting. And I think that the main purpose of Austen's story is to highlight how two sisters with vast differences, go on a "coming of age" journey and along the way gain a deep understanding, and appreciation of the other. Marianne learns to apply "sense" to temper "sensibility", and Elinor in turn learns to season her "sense" with a taste of "sensibility". Very nice point Summer. ETA: I didn't make it clear that I understand that Austen approved of Elinor's sense - I do too. I think Austen wanted to show her as "the rock" of those around her. I also felt like Elinor learned to show a little more emotion - to trust her family/friends a little more with her feelings. Marianne was meant to learn much more from Elinor. I when I say "taste" I do mean a small amount. Elinor moved a few feet closer to sensibility, whereas Marianne had to move a mile towards sense.
Does either of the productions show Marianne's journey from her excess of sensibility to the sensible wife and presumably mother, who is the Patroness of a village.
IMO, I see S&S 95 doing a better job of illustrating Marianne's growth from head-strong, very foolish, and willful young adult who sees romance in EVERYTHING (she even refers to dying for love as being glorious, which mirrors Austen's Marianne finding dead leaves romantic) - to a wiser, cognizant, and temperate woman. There's more contrast between the "before" and "after" Marianne. IMO the 2008 production shows the transformation of a girlish, fanciful Marianne to a more reasonable young adult. There's still personal growth, but it's not as dramatic as the journey that is shown in S&S 95.
Elinor's journey from the sensible sister who budgets and counts pennies, to the girl who marries a poor(ish) man and counts the world well lost for love?
Both productions show Elinor's journey well, IMO. They are both the touchstone of their families. They are both often the "stick in the mud" voice of reason - very necessary, but those realistic insights weren't always welcome to the recipient that would rather have their more optimistic comfort of delusion. And both learned that love was worth a little less practicality. I personally found the transformation of Thompson's Elinor more dramatic. She was, as Austen wrote her, the extreme of restrain. Thompson seemed to take great pains to discipline her facial expressions to conceal more of her emotions. Her restraint in showing emotion is clearly a deliberate choice. She's very facially expressive in everything else I've ever seen her in. She doesn't show a single outburst frustration until her very dramatic, and emotional confession of unhappiness, in her scene with Marianne. It was meant to have a huge impact on us, and Marianne, and I think it effectively did. Her Elinor at the end also had a extreme outburst of emotion when Edward revealed he was unmarried - so great was her emotion - she sobbed uncontrollably, and that's the keyword, uncontrolled. I loved that she could no longer hold in all that emotion. At the wedding, when she and Edward walk out of the church, hand in hand...that sweet moment he kisses her hand. She is so radiant with happiness and joy, as she leans her face closely to his. It was as if the melting of Elinor's impenetrable paragon of discipline was totally complete. So again, the "before" Elinor contrasted sharply with the "after" Elinor, as I think Austen intended. ETA: IMO in the 95 film, I never thought of Elinor as "cold". I understood that Elinor always had very deep feelings, but because of her situation, she feels it necessary to keep tight rein on them. She doesn't display her feelings out of a desire to keep people from worrying about her, or to help them stay calmer in a distressing situation. I enjoyed the build up of all that controlled restraint, and then the release of all the pent up emotion that Thompson's Elinor displayed. I felt immense relief for her when she allowed herself to "let it out". And I enjoyed seeing Elinor finally be able to relax her super-human discipline of emotional restraint and be able to freely show her love and happiness with Edward - what I referred to as "melting". That may not be what Austen intended, but I personally enjoyed the very dramatic dynamics of that in the 95 film.
Morahan did a wonderful job with Elinor, and I like her very much, but she did have a break in her restraint early on when she took out her frustrations with Fanny on the carpet. IMO that lessened the dramatic effect of her later emotional confession to Marianne. We'd already had a peek at the strong emotion she held within - so it's not the sudden reveal that we get in S&S 95. I think that Morahan's portrayal of Elinor was a little more open than Thompson's, she has a very expressive face - which is wonderful - but it gave much more away about what she was feeling. She also has a radiant final shot, where she's happily watching Edward chase chickens, while lovely (her laughing is delightful IMO), it not a contrast to any real lack of expression before. So her "after" Elinor is not as stark of a contrast to her "before" Elinor.
Do you thinkg either of these two productions concentrates enough on the most important love in the the books, the love each sister has for the other?
I think both productions show the love between the two sisters very well. The 2008 production showed more affection between Elinor and Marianne. They seem to understand each other better than the sisters in S&S 95. It's a lovely relationship, but the relationship "before" is almost as close as the "after". Some important lessons are learned between them on their journey, but they give the impression they are already very close before all of that. So the contrast of their relationship "after" isn't as dramatic of a difference as the relationship between them in S&S 95.
In S&S 95, during the "before" sisterly relationship, it's clear that Elinor and Marianne love each other, but they don't understand each other at all. They are extremely different in how they see the world, and how they handle the situations - and I think there is more disapproval shown by each to the other. That bit of friction added "salt and tang" as Locus says. They struck sparks off of each other, and that added interest. S&S 95 does a very good job of showing the vast chasm between them - and the vast chasm between "sense and sensibility" at the same time - again I think this was Austen's original intent. Two extremes, at opposite ends of the spectrum, take a journey towards middle ground, that eventually closes this gaping chasm with an incredible depth of understanding. I think this is beautifully illustrated in S&S 95's Mariannne/Elinor arc. From the moment that Elinor makes her emotional confession to Marianne, they close that gap rapidly. They become closer than ever, and develop a deep appreciation and understanding of the other to go along with the love that they already shared as sisters. Their "after" relationship is dramatically different from their "before" relationship. They truly become sisters joined at the soul. ETA: I wasn't clear when I said that Elinor and Marianne take a journey towards middle ground. I don't mean at all that they each had equal amounts to travel to close the chasm between them. Marianne had to do a vast deal more learning, and maturing. And she had a great distance to move towards Elinor's much better example applying sense over emotion. Elinor's journey was much shorter, in that, IMO she learned trust her family/friends a little more with her feelings - she no longer was in a position to have to be "the rock". And she no longer had to employ the terrific restraint of holding in her feelings for Edward. She was able to fully express her love and happiness with him. That is the way that I felt she moved slightly towards sensibility.
I hope my answers, and opinions are of interest, Summer. Thank you for the thought provoking questions!
what part do you think the men in either production shows repect for their relationship?
I need some clarification to address this point, Summer. Do you mean the men's respect for their relationship with their love interest? or the respect the men feel for the relationship between the two sisters?
One of the main reasons I dislike entering into discussion with you is the lack of courtesy, and lack of balance, and fairness you show in your replies. Your reply here, is a perfect example of what I mean.
You've taken a very long post, where I answered specific questions asked of ME by SUMMER. I clearly explained my personal observations, with a BALANCE of what I saw in each production. I praised the good points of both productions, and noted differences between them, along with MY OPINION in how I FEEL they relate to Austen's original intention. I did not say anything HARSH about either production - I ONLY pointed out differences that I perceived.
I'm really curious as to a couple of things...
1. Why do you pick out ONLY the things you disagree with? Why can't you balance your reply with some acknowledgement that you find some positive insight SOMEWHERE in that entire post? You can't even acknowledge that I'm attempting to be fair in my observations - which would be FAIR of you. The lack of balance and fairness in your response creates an atmosphere of ARGUMENT and DEBATE. Something I've clearly stated that I'm not interested doing with you repeatedly. I'm interested in DISCUSSION - which is an EXCHANGE OF IDEAS (agreement and disagreement) in a balanced and fair manner.
2. Why do you keep trying to tell me my OPINIONS ARE WRONG? My opinions are not WRONG. STOP SPEAKING TO ME AS IF THEY ARE. My opinions are DIFFERENT from yours, nothing more. Do you really find this courteous?
This, IMO, is one of the commonest misreadings of the novel and one of the biggest failures of the 1995 film. Elinor does NOT need to gain "sensibility"
You're telling me, in your opinion, I've MISREAD the novel - and you've used the very negative word "failures" to throw in yet another bash of the 95 version - which you damn well know I adore. Both parts of your statement are incredibly rude. Not once in my post did I say anyone who disagreed with me MISREAD the novel. Not once did I say your preferred version of 2008 FAILED at anything. I'm not trying to provoke you, as you seem to enjoy provoking me. You need to learn to sheath your claws, you seem to always be spoiling for a fight - even when there is no reason to act in such an atrocious way. I'm not a damn nail, and you're not a hammer.
Then, to add insult to injury, you go even further, and tell me condescendingly that "Elinor does NOT need to gain "sensiblitity". DO NOT tell me what I should gather from Austen's meaning regarding Elinor. My interpretation is MY INTERPRETATION. Not yours, and it's incredibly rude to deem to TELL me what I'm supposed to think.
3. Why do you speak to me as if I'm an idiot? I'm quite intelligent, and from my posts - surely you realize I'm fairly well-read and well-spoken. Why in the world are you so snide? I've tried to be fair, and courteous to you, though you've certainly strained my patience. Yet you do not show me the same courtesy. I'm extremely offended by the condescending way you've spoken to me here, when there's no reason to bring that tone into your reply at all!
You do realize that gentlemen kissed ladies' hands for a multitude of reasons, right?
NO $HIT. Really? Get off your high horse Sass. Do you want to make me angry? Because let me tell you, you've succeed, and succeeded grandly. Congratulations. If that was your intention, then you've won. Enjoy, as I'm sure you will. I'm one of the very few people here, that has gone out of my way to try to be friendly with you - even though I don't agree with you. THIS completely unprovoked snide response is the way you've treated me in return. You exhibit a very ugly attitude, and overly rude mannerisms in your posts. Your behavior is very close to troll-like. I don't actually think you're a troll, and that makes your behavior that much more illogical and inexcusable. Why would anyone be so rudely adversarial to someone trying to be nice, unless they wanted to start arguments? I never thought I'd see anyone behave as you do on what should be the most civilized boards of IMDb. Repeated discourtesy, bashing, condescension, etc. towards myself and others on the boards of two wonderful Austen adaptations. Such an incredible shame.
What's really funny about your snide question, is that you completely missed my point. I was leading up to Edward's kissing Elinor's hand as being the IMPETUS for Thompson's expression of happiness and joy. But did you even notice that? Of course not. You decided that I must be ignorant, and decided you must EDUCATE me on why he might have kissed her hand. News flash - I'm not ignorant. You really think his kissing of her hand REQUIRES AN EXPLANATION? I'm guessing - and I'm going out on a huge limb here - (that's HEAVY SARCASM btw) that it was based on AFFECTION!!!1!!! Seeing as they just got married. WOW.
So, if you feel inclined...explain why you continually to exhibit these (above) behaviors. Do you want to be placed on my ignore list? Because if you do, you don't have to provoke me, you can just ask. Regardless, until I see a MARKED improvement in how courteously you treat other posters (ESPECIALLY THOSE YOU DISAGREE WITH), AND a MARKED improvement in how you handle disagreement in discussion - I'm not going to participate in conversation with you - despite my love for both of these adaptations.
As much as you've strained my patience in the past, I honestly tried to be friendly with you, whether you realize it or not. Even as angry and offended as I am at the moment, I truly wish you the best.
First off, I appreciate your apology, and that you've acknowledged your post was poorly worded and therefor understandably taken as offensive. Also, you do have well-earned reputation for being quite adversarial on the boards. So it's again understandable that I felt this was another incidence of the same. In return, I apologize for the very sarcastic tone in my initial response. I was extremely angry, and provoked by the condescending tone. Now that you've explained yourself more cordially, and clearly, I'm no longer angry. I've also noted that you went back and edited your post. I wish that it would have been as diplomatic and respectful the first time. And we could have avoided all of this.
I've been reluctant to do this because my posts tend to be overly long as it is, and it can be extremely boring for other people to read paragraph after paragraph after paragraph of "Yes, I agree, you are right," but you do make a good point.
Thank you, I'm glad my point was well taken. I don't find it boring at all personally. I'd rather see well-rounded discussions, rather than post after post filled only with adversarial stances. And as I've told you more than once, I have no desire to participate in those sorts of argumentative exchanges.
I never intended to imply in any way that you misread the novel, so if that is your interpretation of my comment, then I apologize. You were discussing the differences between the 1995 and 2008 adaptations, and what I meant was that, in my opinion, the S&S 1995 filmmakers misread the novel.
Thank you. Yes, that was my impression and that's why I became so angry. I understand now what you meant. Thank you for clarifying.
As for my use of the word "failures," well, just look at the title of your own thread here: "The lessening of Austen's contrasts in S+S 2008." It comes across as rather negative, even if you do throw in positive comments here and there about the 2008 production. I don't have the slightest problem with that, by the way, but I do find it troubling when other people criticize me for things that they have done, themselves.
I disagree with your comparison to my term "lessen" to your term "failure". Mine means "less of", your's means "none". Which shows negative harshness? If I'd have said that 2008 FAILED to show Austen's contrasts, that would be negative and harsh. I even note that the comparisons that Austen created are there, they just aren't emphasized as strongly as they are in the 95 film. And I made it clear that I truly do enjoy the mini-series as it is. How is that negative?
I also did not "throw in positive comments here and there about the 2008 prodution" I praised it repeatedly. I never said I thought it FAILED, or that I disliked any part of it. I was only saying that I, personally, enjoyed the emphasized contrasts in S&S 95 MORE. I made it quite clear that even so, I STILL enjoyed SS 2008. There is nothing negative about that, and there's nothing negative about having a preference for one over the other. Saying that one completely FAILED, was awful, was rubbish, etc. is negative - and I've never done that.
Do you see the difference?
You are correct - I should have made it clear that I was stating MY opinion.
Thank you. I'm perfectly OK with that being your opinion. It initially came across as you dictating what was correct to me, and that made me angry.
It wasn't intended to be snide. I was merely asking a question...The question was very poorly worded, and I apologize for that.
If you put that question in context of how the earlier parts of your reply came across, then you can probably understand how I saw it as snide. And yes, it was very poorly worded in a way that made it have a condescending tone. Thank you for your apology, and I'm glad that your intention behind it was in fact, not snide.
But why is it so horrible for me to mention reasons why gentlemen kissed ladies' hands, using examples from Austen's writing to support my point?
Again, you have to consider the context of how the earlier parts of your reply came across to me. From the beginning I thought you were *telling me I'd misread the book*, *that my favorite 95 film failed* that I was *incorrect in my opinion of Elinor and sensibility* , and that I obviously *must be ignorant of the different reasons for hand kissing*. By this point in your reply, I was royally incensed - and rightly so from the tone your reply inferred. So your "helpful" information came across as another condescending jab. It seemed to come from a place of - "here you go, let me help you out your ignorance". Does that make my adverse reaction clearer to you?
After reading your information regarding hand-kissing, without the previous impression of offending condescension - I still see that the hand-kiss of that particular scene as a display of affection, and I enjoy it that way.
Well, not to criticize your own interpretation of that scene, but it isn't what Emma Thompson had in mind. In her screenplay and diaries book, it is mentioned that Edward and Elinor are supposed to be married already during this scene; it is not supposed to be a double wedding. I agree that it looks very much like one, though.
I've never read the entire screenplay, or her diaries, so I did not know the final scene was not a double wedding. Thank you for that bit of information. As many times as I've seen it, I've always thought it was a double wedding. Not only because it appeared that way, but probably also because P&P 95 ends with a lovely double wedding. Hmmm, I think I still prefer my personal interpretation - a double wedding with sisters is such a sweet idea to me. And regardless if Edward and Elinor had already been married before that point, his hand kiss seems to be clearly a display of his affection for Elinor.
I agree with you 100% that Thompson's Elinor does look a bit too blissful for it NOT to be her wedding. I wonder what that was all about?
Even though I now know that it wasn't Elinor and Edward's wedding, I don't agree that she looks TOO blissful. I've always thought she looked very happy and joyous, but it's also appropriate for her to feel that way at Marianne's wedding. She's not only incredibly happy to be with her beloved Edward, she's very happy for her sister too. Weddings are happy occasions, everyone in that scene looks as if they're enjoying themselves, as they should.
Honestly, webrowser, I have greatly enjoyed the discussions here and would prefer that they continue. To that end, I will make a stronger effort not to be offensive or upsetting to you.
I've enjoyed some of our discussions, those in which you've not been adversarial. I do not enjoy argumentative back-and-forth at all, with you or anyone for that matter. If you make an honest effort to keep your tone respectful, cordial, fair, and balanced, I'd be glad to continue our discussions under those conditions - and I'll continue to try to show you the same respect and courtesy.
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I notice that you went back and edited your original reply (the one that offended me). The way you've edited your original reply is EXACTLY the way you should handle discussions and it is PERFECTLY cordial even in disagreement. If you'd responded like this to me - and with other posters - from the beginning, you'd be happily included in discussions. And would even likely be asked much more often for input.
Now that I see that you do have the ability to express yourself so diplomatically, I have another question.
WHY haven't you used this personable manner in your interactions on this board, and the S&S 95 board to begin with?
Elinor does NOT need to gain "sensibility" - she already has it, but, unlike Marianne, she knows better than to let it control her life.
I agree that Elinor always has sensibility, and she knows not to let it cloud her judgement. When I say that I feel she moved a bit towards sensibility, I meant that she finally arrived at a place where she didn't have to keep such a tight rein on her feelings. She's had to exercise more control than normal because of the situations she was in - firstly she had to be strong for her family, secondly she was pressed into keeping Lucy's situation a secret. In the S&S 95 film, this tight control gives Marianne the impression that Elinor has shallow feelings i.e. "lacks sensibility". I had commented somewhere that Elinor is "the rock" of her family. She has to be the "voice of reason" many times. She has to make the hard decisions, and she's the most capable of being practical. This is also shown in the 2008 adaptation, but it's not as dramatic as I feel it is in S&S 95. I think that in the film the strict emotional discipline that Thompson gives her Elinor creates an interesting contrast to Marianne's open emotional behavior. And I personally enjoy the contrast between controlled Elinor and the Elinor at the end of the film that is no longer in situations that require such strict emotional control.
The fact that S&S 1995 shows Elinor changing in equal measure to Marianne is, IMO, one of its biggest failures.
I don't see it that way. As I tried to clarify, I don't see Elinor changing in equal measure to Marianne at all in S&S 95. Marianne does nearly all the actual changing. I see Elinor being in situations that create a need for her to have tight control over her emotions. I never saw Elinor as "cold", she feels emotion deeply, but doesn't let them control her. She doesn't want to distress her family. So she keeps a level head, even when every one else is falling apart. She's not able to share her heartache about Lucy and Edward, because she's pressed to keep it a secret. She also doesn't want to worry or upset her family, because they are all struggling with their own problems. What I see in S&S 95 is a woman who feels deeply, but has the maturity to temper her emotions with sense. Her normal, appropriate balance of sense and sensibility is disrupted because she finds herself in unfortunate situations that require her to "be strong" and be the anchor for her family. She has to draw heavily on her qualities of "sense" during this time. I imagine that the role of family anchor was held by her father until he died, and then she had to step up. What a huge burden! She handled it well, but not without cost to herself. That is a big reason why I enjoy the moments when Elinor's situations change to where she no longer has to keep everything tightly controlled and hidden. I feel a relief for her! And I find the contrast of before and after dramatic and interesting.
I'll try to address your other points, as I get time.
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IMO, that scene in S&S 1995 misses the entire point of Elinor's character. In the novel, Elinor DOES burst into tears, but that is only AFTER she leaves the room to spare her family the embarrassment (and, I would imagine, to retain her dignity).
I understand what you're saying. It did not bother me that the 95 film had Elinor burst into tears in front of her family. I'm able to understand, and sympathize with her emotional outburst even if it differs from how it was handled in the book.
Yes, I agree with you that this is what that scene in S&S 1995 shows, but, IMO, it is not exactly what happens in the novel. As I mentioned earlier, Elinor is not perfect, but she does not need to learn a "lesson" in the same way that Marianne does. Austen approved of her restraint and discipline.
I understand that Austen approved of her restraint - I do too. I clarified in another post what I meant about Elinor's transformation not being a "lesson" learned but more of a change of situation that no longer required her to be emotionally controlled "rock" of her family. She shows more emotion towards the end, because it's again "safe" for her to do so. That was the small taste of sensibility I was referring to.
I'm not fond of the relationship between Winslet's Marianne and Thompson's Elinor; I think they are almost always practically at each other's throats. In the novel, Elinor and Marianne have disagreements, but I think S&S 1995 grossly exaggerates this "friction."
I understand completely. The friction may have been exaggerated in the film, but I liked the dynamics of it. I didn't see it as being at each other's throats, it didn't strike me as negatively. I saw two sisters who loved each other deeply, but did not understand one another. I enjoyed seeing their journey from that point to understanding, and appreciating each other deeply. It was a very satisfying process for me because I have a deep fondness for "before" and "after" contrasts where there's marked improvement between the two points.
Morahan's Elinor and Wakefield's Marianne have a lovely relationship that is developed with great care over the course of the miniseries. They start off as very affectionate, loving sisters, of course, but their understanding and appreciation of each other deepens as they learn more from each other. Mostly it is Wakefield's Marianne who must learn from Morahan's Elinor.
I completely agree. It's a lovely depiction of the close relationship between the two sisters. It reminds me of Lizzie and Jane in P&P 95, which is not surprising since Davies wrote that screenplay too.
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Wow such long replies. Let me explore a few points.
I didn't make it clear that I understand that Austen approved of Elinor's sense - I do too. I think Austen wanted to show her as "the rock" of those around her. I also felt like Elinor learned to show a little more emotion - to trust her family/friends a little more with her feelings. Marianne was meant to learn much more from Elinor. I when I say "taste" I do mean a small amount. Elinor moved a few feet closer to sensibility, whereas Marianne had to move a mile towards sense.
Yes, Marianne had to make the larger journey, that's clear enough. And like you I think Austen did prefer Elinor I don't think she wanted Marianne to be seen as simply a 'drama queen' though. Marianne's excesses are not character faults as such, simply something she has to learn to control. I think it a pity that both productions don't show much of this journey. We get a glimpse of it in the poetry reading scene and in her conversation with Elinor on the hill top, but it's a pity there was not enough time to show her metamorphosis into loving wife and mother. I wish I could feel that the 2008 production showed some of it. I think I feel that 2008 showed a surface difference but it never really goes into a bone deep maturity. She says she is going to go on a course of study at Delaford and that seems to be it. The Delaford scenes seem to show her more catering to Brandon than anything else. The 2008 does show Elinor laughing at Edward being foolish, so her journey into happiness is more clearly shown than Marianne's. And her willingness to cast off the burden of being the sensible one and keeping her mother and sisters on the prudent path.
And speaking of the 2008 production, did anyone else notice how similar the scene between Marianne and Elinor in the bedroom when Marianne tells Elinor she is marrying the Colonel was to the scene in P&P 1995 when Jane and Lizzie are walking into the house and Jane talks about how she wished that Lizzie could be happy as well. The dialogue is practically the same in both cases.
From Webrowser
In S&S 95, during the "before" sisterly relationship, it's clear that Elinor and Marianne love each other, but they don't understand each other at all. They are extremely different in how they see the world, and how they handle the situations - and I think there is more disapproval shown by each to the other. That bit of friction added "salt and tang" as Locus says. They struck sparks off of each other, and that added interest. S&S 95 does a very good job of showing the vast chasm between them - and the vast chasm between "sense and sensibility" at the same time - again I think this was Austen's original intent. Two extremes, at opposite ends of the spectrum, take a journey towards middle ground, that eventually closes this gaping chasm with an incredible depth of understanding. I think this is beautifully illustrated in S&S 95's Mariannne/Elinor arc. From the moment that Elinor makes her emotional confession to Marianne, they close that gap rapidly. They become closer than ever, and develop a deep appreciation and understanding of the other to go along with the love that they already shared as sisters. Their "after" relationship is dramatically different from their "before" relationship. They truly become sisters joined at the soul.
It does seem that all the arguments and reconciliation happen between the sisters. I don't think we see one argment between them and the men. And that includes Willoughby. I think ebrowser you hve stated this very nicely.
And now for something completely different.
Sassy has put up quite a lot of posts stating that she thinks Marianne in the film marries Brandon for mercenary reasons. On re-reading the last chapter of the novel I came across this passage that for some reason didn't impinge on me before.
Elinor's marriage divided her as little from her family as could well be contrived, without rendering the cottage at Barton entirely useless, for her mother and sisters spent much more than half their time with her. Mrs. Dashwood was acting on motives of policy as well as pleasure in the frequency of her visits at Delaford; for her wish of bringing Marianne and Colonel Brandon together was hardly less earnest, though rather more liberal than what John had expressed. It was now her darling object. Precious as was the company of her daughter to her, she desired nothing so much as to give up its constant enjoyment to her valued friend; and to see Marianne settled at the mansion-house was equally the wish of Edward and Elinor. They each felt his sorrows, and their own obligations, and Marianne, by general consent, was to be the reward of all.
With such a confederacy against her--with a knowledge so intimate of his goodness--with a conviction of his fond attachment to herself, which at last, though long after it was observable to everybody else--burst on her--what could she do?
Jane Austen, S&S Ch.50
I don't know why this didn't pop out at me before. It seems from this passage that Austen intended it to be clear that Marianne married to oblige her family. It does make the ending of the 2008 production out to be even more of a departure from the novel than it already is. And it clears up Marianne's motive for marrying Brandon. It was family pressure and her own respect for him that led to her acceptance.
_____________ I am the Queen of Snark, TStopped said so.
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summeriris, Sass has asked me, politely, to respond, to this - I hope I do not offend you by doing so?
1) Sass, summeriris said "family pressure" and Marianne's own respect for Brandon, which would certainly indicate more reasons than the former, since she herself provides one.
2) Sure, the 2008 spends a lot more time spelling out explicitly that the Dashwoods adore Brandon. But then, this adaptation spends a good bit of time on and spells out explicitly just about everything to do with Brandon.
The 1995 film shows the pleasure and satisfaction in the faces of Mrs. Dashwood and Elinor as they look out the window, at Brandon and Marianne together over Spenser. That is enough - it is there, it needs to be, and it is. It isn't dwelt on, no. But it is certainly there.
Elinor, in the 1995 film as well, calls Marianne's attention to her duties of courtesy toward the Colonel, on more than one occasion.
I do agree that Austen's manner of describing the united family wish was ironical, but I think she was quite serious about the matter she describes. Of course they aren't against Marianne, they are for her happiness. And, when she realizes how profoundly Brandon loves her, and given how greatly she has come to esteem and like him, and how secure she knows she can be in his goodness, she makes her own choice, I have no doubt, guided a little, perhaps, by her trust in especially Elinor's judgement.
Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.
The 2008 shows, indeed, rather too much (IMO) general promotion, more than the novel does, and much more explicitly, of the Marianne-Brandon match. The 1995 film gives us this with more economy - again, it is, for me, a terrifically handled distillation.
I don't like the introduction of Marianne's potential motherhood - Mrs. Jennings is not a delicate woman, but I can't see why it was introduced. Unless, it being Andrew Davies, whom I am more and more feeling, now that I have watched "Northanger Abbey," positively requires the right producers and directors to provide some counter to his prurience (ETA: a fig leaf, if you like), he wanted to call up the image of Brandon coupling with Marianne.
Most of the incidents of the 1995 Elinor calling Marianne's attention to her want of duty are non-verbal. I wonder if your animus toward the film gets in the way of your taking note of the fine details - this can be difficult with a production one finds severely irritating.
We agree that, whatever the family wishes are, no-one forces Marianne, at all, into a choice, nor pressures her unduly. She does come to value the judgement of those she loves and respects - especially Elinor's, as we've already agreed.
I disagree that Willoughby and Marianne are one the the 1995 love stories. While Brandon and Marianne are not a romance, theirs is a story of love, and I do think the 1995 film, while it does, in the poetry scene, give us Marianne's growing appreciation for Brandon, her enjoyment, her reliance, on his company sooner than the novel, this is necessary dramatically as a precursor to the wedding, and does provide most of us with the emotional assurance that Marianne will love him as he her, in fairly short order. Again, there is a lot of subtext, much more is conveyed with tone and look, and subtlety of direction, than by the words alone.
I also think the 1995 film does a better job with the Elinor-Marianne love story, precisely because we see both love and real disharmony between them, and also because Elinor is tightly controlled from her father's death until her outburst at Marianne when Edward's engagement to Lucy is revealed (no carpet-beating to let the air out). While you are right about the tenor of Elinor's outburst being more emotional than in the novel, it is notable that, in the book, Elinor specifically contrasts her beloved's honor, and the fact that this gives her no reason to despise him, with Willoughby's behavior. While true, this is a nasty, barbed thing to say to a sister she knows is suffering greatly. So Austen's Elinor does display negative emotion toward Marianne; the 1995 film gives us the emotion up-front, not passive-aggressively.
Sure, Austen is perfectly funny and right about the incomes. And Elinor has enough that, with her now-habitual frugality, Marianne is more likely to overdraw her pin-money than Elinor to exceed her household budget.
Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.
We agree about a number of things; we differ on others.
One note - It is a real dig for Elinor to speak of Edward's superiority to Willoughby (rubbing it in - "I love a better man than you"), and noting that she hasn't this benefit of anything to lower her beloved in her own esteem ("and I've been behaving myself, why the heck aren't you; my excuses for grief are much bigger than yours"). Total passive-aggressive move. I excuse her completely, she's had way too much to bear for way too long, she's entitled not to watch her tongue, and vent for once, but I will call it what it is.
Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.
I, personally, have never said Brandon and Marianne is not a love story. I believe summeriris has, but I have not. It is NOT, as Austen wrote it, the romance it is in the 2008, nor does the 1995 film portray it as such. But love story - yes. Brandon loves Marianne profoundly, he exerts himself in her service, he is faithful to her, in effect, without hope of return. She, very late in the novel, in paragraphs so condensed they are almost as off as the endings of some of Shakespeare's comedies, comes to appreciate that love (she already appreciates the man), and, eventually, after their marriage, return it with all her heart.
I am not going to engage with you further on the 1995 Brandon-Marianne take. I have posted, at length, in detail, what I think, and why, and where and how I believe the film itself supports my position.
Well, many scholars and readers, including Margaret Drabble, feel that Austen made the exact mistake with Willoughby, and Willoughby and Marianne, that you find in the 1995 film. I think the film toes the line very well, and, while I find Willoughby pitiable, and not unsympathetic, I take Austen's view, he made his bed and can lie in it. Sorry, but there it is.
And, if you cannot refrain from inserting digs at a performance you know I greatly admire, I will cease to engage with you altogether. You might do well to consider that, given my decades of acting experience and training, I have perhaps a better-informed appreciation than many. I do not say you aren't entitled to your opinion - of course you are. But, if you want to engage with me, stop bashing this characterization.
Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.
I thought each of you had said that, at different times on the S&S 1995 and S&S 2008 boards. My apologies.
What I have said is that Marianne and Brandon in the novel and in the 1995 film are not romantic in a Harlequin/Mills & Boons/bodice ripper fashion. I stand by that. I have also stated many times that their love story happens after their marriage. I put it like this once, Marianne slides gently into love with her husband. And I stand by that. The 1995 film ends with their marriage and with the subtle implication that this has already started to happen.
_____________ I am the Queen of Snark, TStopped said so.
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And Marianne and Brandon in S&S 2008 are not romantic in a Harlequin/Mills & Boon/bodice ripper fashion, either. Not in any way, shape, or form.
That is exactly what they are, in every way shape or form. Including that last nauseating shot of Brandon striding to the front door of his mansion carrying his dewy eyed child-bride.
No, it doesn't. And besides, you said earlier that the feelings Winslet's Marianne has for Brandon in S&S 1995 are basically like the feelings she would have for a grandparent. Well, Rickman is technically old enough to be Winslet's grandfather, so I think I see what you mean by that.
Sassy you fail at making the most basic of deductions. Alan Rickman did not marry Kate Winslett. David Morrisey did not marry Charity Wakefield. who was young enough to be his daughter actually. Col Brandon married Marianne.
I am sick and tired of your venom. You are now going on ignore. _____________ I am the Queen of Snark, TStopped said so.
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I have said, repeatedly, the Brandon-Marianne is not a romance, and it is possible that, from my frequently general agreement with summeriris' posts, you could, if not careful in your reading, have made that error.
I have elsewhere indicated that, at least for dramatic purposes, Austen's men need fleshing out. So does Brandon-Marianne. All adaptations have to write dialogue for Edward and Brandon that Austen did not, and scenes do need to be invented, particularly to show the latter relation develop.
The 2008 makes Brandon and Marianne a romance in a number of ways. First, they make Brandon the perfect image of a romantic hero from the start, and keep him front and center throughout the entirety of this version, completely overshadowing for the audience any appeal Willoughby might have, which is utterly out of keeping with Austen's story and characters. Second, the earlier invented scenes between Brandon and Marianne look like the beginning of accepted courtship, however Marianne may react afterward. They are posed, lit, and scored, romantically. Everything to do with Brandon is overtly romantic. There is no subtlety, we are time and again bashed over the head with the heavy-handedness, everything is like the "8 by 10 color glossy photos, with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one, explaining what each one was" Arlo Guthrie sings of in "Alice's Restaurant."
Marianne must point out, in so many words, that Brandon is "the true romantic." Properly handled, this should not be needed; we should see, subtly, that Brandon is romantic. The whole horse and falcon show is juvenile romance in its appeal, not an illustration of maturity on both sides.
You have noted elsewhere that Brandon is as responsible for Marianne's happiness as she for his. That is, at least in the narrow sense, contrary to what Austen explicitly writes, which is that Marianne's presence in Brandon's life, as his wife, makes him as happy as all know him to deserve, and that Brandon's happiness. at her hand, generates Marianne's own happiness. Marianne, therefore, is the generator of the happiness of life at Delaford, although we cannot doubt that Brandon cherishes and cares for Marianne, and will make every effort to ensure her continuing happiness. But he is principally responsible for the safety, security, and prosperity of their life together, she for the happy tenor of it.
I have heretofore detailed my evaluation of most of the invented scenes in the 1995 film you mention. I will not repeat myself, and, again, I will not engage with you on Brandon, nor Brandon and Marianne, in the 1995 film.
Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.
I didn't state an opinion on Marianne or Brandon being responsible for the other's happiness. I quoted Jane Austen, elucidated her take, and noted that Brandon cannot be doubted to step up in his efforts to maintain Marianne's happiness. Precisely what in this can you possibly find to take issue with? You make no sense whatever.
I really do not know how many times you expect me to repeat that the Brandon-Marianne emotional timeline is moved up in the film to create an emotionally satisfactory resolution, so that the audience can see it. How is this not clear to you? I have answered this for the last time. DO NOT ASK AGAIN.
Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.
By my own admission? By my assertion, rather, if you please. It is the same emotional arc as Austen's though, just speeded up in time, not the vastly different bodice-ripping adolescent-romantic version presented in the 2008.
Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.
when she realizes how profoundly Brandon loves her, and given how greatly she has come to esteem and like him, and how secure she knows she can be in his goodness, she makes her own choice, I have no doubt, guided a little, perhaps, by her trust in especially Elinor's judgement.
I agree locus. As you've said, Marianne married Brandon because she'd grown to feel the very things for him that she'd mocked Elinor for feeling for Edward. She thought very highly of him, greatly esteemed him, and liked him. It was lovely to have the confirmation of her family on her choice, and their (no doubt) enthusiastic support for the match. Then on this wonderful, solid foundation of esteem and friendship, she married him, and she grew to love Brandon with her whole heart. So lovely!
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Of course you haven't offended me. The discussion is simply moving along. The passage interests me on several levels and I am puzzled as to why Andrew Davies simply ignored the passage in his adaptation. But he ignored so much, why am I surprised would be a better question.
I think the film echoes this passage in many ways. When Elinor and Mrs Brandon are inside looking out of the open window they are discussing Brandon. Mrs Dashwood comments on Brandon's looks, or rather his expression and how she didn't like the expression in Willoughby's eyes sometimes. This scene is almost word for word what Mrs Dashwood says to Elinor. Marianne's and Elinor's conversation when Marianne is at last strong enough to go for a walk is also very close to what is in the book. She acknowledges how badly she has behaved and her regret at this behaviour. This is where we can see for really the first time thast Marianne is starting to grow up. All of this speaks to ma about the care that Thomson took in her adaptation, and the care Lee took in transferring that adaptation to the screen. Of course this will simply never be enough for some, but it's more than enough for me. I don't need to see Marianne 'falling in love', mainly because I don't think she ever does. It's more like Marianne slides softly into love in the novel, and in the film it is set up so well that we can foresee that happening with no trouble.
Of course her family's approval will mean a lot to Marianne, all through the novel we see how the various families work. It is a book about families and how the various families intermingle, influence and support/not support each other.
_____________ I am the Queen of Snark, TStopped said so.
The passage interests me on several levels and I am puzzled as to why Andrew Davies simply ignored the passage in his adaptation. But he ignored so much, why am I surprised would be a better question.
I do think it is likely, as I've said before, that Andrew Davies fell too much in love with his Brandon - understandably, the character is so purely his own. It seems to me that everything seriously wrong with the adaptation, every major departure from the novel, every aspect Davies ignored, centers on Brandon, or on Marianne in a Brandon-related way.
I think the film echoes this passage in many ways. When Elinor and Mrs Brandon are inside looking out of the open window they are discussing Brandon. Mrs Dashwood comments on Brandon's looks, or rather his expression and how she didn't like the expression in Willoughby's eyes sometimes. This scene is almost word for word what Mrs Dashwood says to Elinor.
Yes, indeed, you are right - and it's funny as all get out, Mrs. Dashwood editing out in retrospect her former enthusiasm for Willoughby, but sweet, too. And right out of the novel.
And also about Marianne's maturing, owning to Elinor her less than admirable behavior, and the pain and regret this knowledge gives her - yes, again, the dialogues is very close to Austen's, and Winslet's acting indeed conveys how sobered she is, how largely this figures in her consciousness. I do think the poetry scene foretells this, in Winslet's pensive face as she listens to Brandon. Winslet, in fact, shows us Marianne thinking several times in the film - let me tell you, that isn't a task for faint-hearted actors; not all can do it, and it isn't easy. This film has a number of actors who can, and do, and it's marvelous.
ETA: I should say, not even every actor of great talent and skill can think, effectively, on camera. It's a gift, like a good ear for accents - something that can be developed, but not created where it does not innately exist.
It does show the care Thompson and Lee took; more than that, it is evident that the care paid off - the result is a fine adaptation and a great film.
I don't need to see Marianne 'falling in love', mainly because I don't think she ever does. It's more like Marianne slides softly into love in the novel, and in the film it is set up so well that we can foresee that happening with no trouble.
Well put, very, very well put, summeriris. I also think Marianne, pre-heartbreak, focused on her own happiness, or unhappiness - that is, on her own feelings; marrying Brandon, she begins to discover the pleasure of making another happy. And, being Marianne, who is after all a young woman of dimension, of spiritual stature, this pleasure will make her good heart happy; her love of the happiness in Brandon she creates will blossom to embrace the entirety of the man.
I agree the film does set this up - beautifully - it assures us, wordlessly, of the eventual, inevitable outcome. To do so, it must begin a little before Austen does, to be sure, in showing Marianne's growing regard for Brandon, and the rejuvenating effect this begins to have on him. But we do have to see a little, and the film is both judicious and delicate about it.
If Marianne falls wholly, romantically in love with Brandon, and in advance of their marriage, her dimension of heart and character is not suggested, nor her unselfish desire to make Colonel Brandon as happy as she knows he deserves to be, which also undercuts her maturation in our eyes. And, of course, it is a wholesale departure from Austen.
Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.
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If Marianne falls wholly, romantically in love with Brandon, and in advance of their marriage, her dimension of heart and character is not suggested, nor her unselfish desire to make Colonel Brandon as happy as she knows he deserves to be, which also undercuts her maturation in our eyes. And, of course, it is a wholesale departure from Austen.
That is the part of the 2008 adaptation that I detest the most. It's entirely Davies work. He created a cliche of a romance. There is not one original part in what he wrote. It all seems to have been lifted wholesale from a 1970's bodice ripper. It's all there, the heroine who didn't like the hero at first, then when he rescues her from her folly and sees how great he looks in his wet shirt, it's all... "Oh my beating heart, you are so wonderful. Let me fall on my back for you." Yuch, it's enough to make you throw up.
I can understand why Davies did it this way, it was just so much easier than spending time as Thomson did working and reworking the screenplay. It was easier to have Edward shown chopping wood than to create a scenario where his manliness doesn't depend on his muscles. The same with Brandon. It was easier to make him Col Regency Action Man that it was to find a way to make his qualities shine through. Thomson and Lee were lucky in their choice of Rickman, he simply conveyed so much of Brandon's inner qualities without needing a line of dialogue. The sad thing is that Morissey is more than capable of doing this. If you have seen him in various roles as I have, then you know the man can act. He wasn't really given anything to do in this production but look good. Such a waste of a fine actor. Such a waste of a production, it needed a better screenplay and better direction, that was all. Austen doesn't hide her contrasts, she didn't write difficult to follow books. Yes the men in S&S are not very well fleshed oout but they have good bones as the saying goes. Give them some flesh, but you don't have to blow up that flesh with a lot of hot air.
_____________ I am the Queen of Snark, TStopped said so.
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I think we do have to understand, and appreciate, that for Emma Thompson, the screenplay was largely a labor of love. She spent years on it, as you note. Lee, too, seems to have had so deeply sensitive a feel for the material that "love" does not seem too strong a word there, either.
Yes, Rickman is an astonishing actor. His ability, with a single look, to convey what pages of narrative would be needed to tell us, is invaluable in the film. And, too, as Thompson noted in her diaries, the depth of sweetness in his Brandon is so moving. This is a man whose emotional wound is not a scar - it has never even scabbed over, really, it is still raw. So he suppresses his emotions, he does not touch them, they hurt. When he relates to Elinor the history of Eliza and Beth, he is so acutely uncomfortable he can't stand still.
His first seeing Marianne, hearing her song, pierces him again - a parallel wound, but sweet as well as painful, and irresistible.
The lending of his knife is a parallel with his bringing Mrs. Dashwood to Cleveland - he provides what Marianne needs, and is ready to bow out without so much as a word from her. But this latter time, she does not let him go un-thanked, though it takes all her strength to do so. This, then, is the real first step for Marianne toward the lovely, the fine, adult woman she will become.
More on your other points later . . .
Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.
Thank you for posting that bit from the ending of the book showing Marianne's motive for marrying Brandon. How wonderful for her to know that her family heartily approved of Brandon, and esteemed him so highly. I can see how the combination of encouragement from her beloved family, along with her own high opinion of him, the friendship they'd developed, and her secure knowledge of his fondness for her induced her to accept him. And a wise choice it was indeed!
I do think Winslet appears a little bigger boned than Wakefield. So many qualities make Wakefield appear younger - the build, the stature, the style of loveliness, as you've noted, the voice. But it's appropriate to the mini-series take. Not quite so much Austen's. Summeriris has reminded us that "teenager" is a modern concept - a girl raised as Marianne was expected to be a young woman by the age of 17 or so, not a child, and there wasn't the in-between we invented later.
I find it fascinating that you're able to enjoy, not only the dialogue, but the delivery of it
What do you think first caught me about Alan Rickman? I am quite certain you enjoy his delivery, no? I knew of him, of course, but I first saw him in a film called, I think, "The January Man." Not a very good film, though it had its points - great cast, and Rickman played a neighbor of the hero, played by Kevin Kline. Rickman's character was an extremely self-regarding penniless artist. Kline, a policeman, offers him a temporary job working with him on an investigation. Pause. "For money?" As if weighing for the first time the concept of such a thing. I goggled, I think my jaw may have dropped, and I'm a fan since those two words hit my ear.
Rickman also did exquisite, excruciating work in "An Awfully Big Adventure," he plays the only decent human in the film, whom fate betrays into a terrible action.
Hugh Grant is in that film, also, and deliciously evil.
Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.
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My age is really none of your business, suffice it to say I am young in heart.
I don't hate the 2008 production, I simply hate aspects of it. I make no secret of that. I simply don't spill venom on the actors. They all did the best they could.
2008 did not show any family pressure on the Dashwood girls to do anything. The only family pressure we see is Mrs Ferrers on Edward. We don't eve see much on Willoughby.
One of the main purpose in upper class and aristocratic families has always been to produce an heir and a spare. There is nothing new in that.
Elinor wants Marianne to be polit in general. Brandon is nothing special there.
I know the training aspect of the production doesn't bother you. Actually I don't really know if that's the case, I only know you prefer to downplay it and you don't like it being a subject of discussion.
_____________ I am the Queen of Snark, TStopped said so.
I'm going to this really quickly because today I have things to do and places to go.
This thread is about the 2008 production, not the film. And in this production there is no sign of any kind of pressure on Marianne or Elinor to marry.
Mrs Jennings is not a member of the Dashwood family. Her opinions are just that to them, her opinions.
Mrs Dashwood does come to value Brandon in the book and in the film, but again this is neither the film or the novel, so that doesn't count. And one passin comment about Brandon is hardly pressure.
And I would hope that the pressure on Margaret was a lot harder than simply learning to recite the names of the Kings and Queens of England.
See above point about Mrs Jennings.
_____________ I am the Queen of Snark, TStopped said so.
In S&S 1995, where exactly do we see the "family pressure" on Marianne that Austen talks about?
I don't see any. What I said was that Davies ignored that point in Austen's novel and as he had time to explore it I wondered why he didn't. Then I realised that was a silly question, it's not Austen's S&S, it's his S&S. And he has completely ignored Austen's plot in favour of his version.
And in S&S 2008, there IS pressure on Elinor and Marianne to marry. For one thing, it is made clear that they will have very small dowries, so it hardly needs to be said that they will need to marry well in order to survive.
They are getting by without being married. It might be tough but they are not reduced to begging in the streets. And yes Mrs Dashwood would like to see her daughters happily married, what mother wouldn't want her daughters happy and comfortable. But she is hardly selling them off to prospective husbands.
Actually, I mentioned TWO "passing comment[s] about Brandon" from Mrs. Dashwood in S&S 2008. I didn't say that it was coercion.
Seriously, do you think that Andrew Davies would let an opportunity pass to have his "creation" (as you and locusnola put it) praised and supported by most of the characters in the adaptation?
Actually I think Davies never gave that a thought. I think he thought that his Brandon didn't need any promoting, what woman could resist him?
For goodness' sake, it was a joke! I specifically stated in my previous post that it was not to be taken too seriously. But, yes, I do think that Margaret would have had more pressure than that.
Not it seems in history lessons.
_____________ I am the Queen of Snark, TStopped said so.
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I have to agree with vangellv that your post is very enjoyable to read. I agree with most (though not all) of what you state. The 2008 Sense & Sensibility is pretty solid, with mostly good performances, moody settings, striking costumes, and a script that includes more of the plot than the much shorter 1995 film could, but despite all that, I’ve never fully warmed to it. Actually, one of the biggest issues I had the first time I watched it was that I had been expecting it to be much more faithful to the novel than it was, and I wound up disappointed at the number of plot and character elements that were basically rehashed from the earlier film. I think Andrew Davies’s Pride and Prejudice adaptation stayed very faithful to its source material -- despite the famous/infamous scenes of Darcy jumping into a pond 😉😀 -- and I guess I was expecting a similar treatment for S&S. Unfortunately, that wasn’t what happened.
In general, I actually find Brandon’s behavior in the 2008 miniseries to be a bit odd and awkward in spite of his obvious passion and humaneness. (Granted, this may have been intentional.) My opinion about him has changed since the first time I saw the miniseries, when I thought he was simply overconfident, and therefore not much like the novel’s Brandon. Now that I’ve watched this miniseries a few more times, I no longer see this Brandon as particularly confident. Instead, I notice how deeply insecure he comes across in several scenes, such as when he confronts Willoughby at the Barton party to question him about his “intentions.” No man who is truly confident in himself would do something like that. Another example occurs during his first visit to Barton Park, when he is prompted by Elinor to tell Marianne how much he enjoyed her piano playing. He is obviously taken with Marianne but finds it difficult to express himself.
I do like Morahan’s Elinor rather well, but despite how appropriate Wakefield looks for the role of Marianne, I'm not keen on her performance. To me, she comes across as frivolous, silly, and very sweet, but missing most of the passion and conviction that the character has in the book. She seems even younger than Winslet (who, in actuality, was younger than Wakefield in the role) and isn't really forceful enough. That said, I suppose that much of the blame should be laid on the screenwriter.
By the way, I thought that some readers here might find this of interest: I did something very silly and decided to transcribe all of the lines spoken by the Brandons in the 1995 and 2008 adaptations. I’ve read a fair number of comments and reviews claiming that the 1995 Brandon doesn’t speak nearly as much or have nearly as much screentime as the 2008 Brandon, and I was curious to see how accurate those claims really are. I used the films themselves for the transcription, not the scripts, because there are virtually always considerable discrepancies between movies and their scripts, and I wanted to be as accurate as possible.
Well, as anyone might guess, neither version of Brandon is a great talker. 😉 As it turns out, Rickman’s Brandon speaks a total of only about 795 words (give or take a few -- it’s quite possible that I may have made a mistake or two during the transcription) in the film, which clocks in at about 136 minutes. Morrissey’s Brandon speaks approximately 851 words (again, give or take a few) in the 180-minute miniseries. Now, if we take the running time into consideration, then that means the 1995 Brandon manages to get in about 5.85 words per minute of screentime … if anyone thinks that’s a relevant statistic, of course. 😉 The 2008 Brandon manages about 4.73 words per minute.
I noticed that a considerable portion of Brandon’s lines in the 1995 film come from the scene in which he informs Elinor about Beth and Willoughby. From beginning to end, that scene is around 4 minutes and 33 seconds, more than twice as long as the corresponding scene in the 2008 miniseries, which clocks in at only about 2 minutes. Rickman’s Brandon speaks about 372 words during this entire scene in the film, while Morrissey’s Brandon speaks about 228 words.
If one does not include the “confession” scenes in the total word tallies, then Rickman’s Brandon speaks 423 words and Morrissey’s Brandon speaks 623 words. So that would be 3.48 words per minute for Morrissey’s Brandon, and 3.22 words per minute for Rickman’s Brandon. Not much of a difference, really. 😉 Either way, I’d say that Rickman’s Brandon and Morrissey’s Brandon get roughly equivalent shares of dialogue in their respective films. I didn’t bother trying to determine total screentime for each actor, because I find that sort of thing even more absurdly tedious than word-counting. Beyond that, I do think that the amount spoken by a film character usually (but, of course, not always) gives a pretty good indication of that character's impact on the film as a whole.
On that subject, does it seem that newer movies and TV shows are less likely than older films to have long, slow, wordy scenes? I’ve noticed that in the ancient (well, to me, anyway) 1971 S&S miniseries, Brandon’s speech to Elinor in London is considerably longer than even the scene in the 1995 film.
Update: I have now examined the screentimes of both actors. If my tally is at least close to being accurate (and I think it is), then Morrissey's Brandon actually appears onscreen in the miniseries for a little under 20 minutes. Rickman's Brandon can be seen onscreen in the film for a little under 17 minutes. Considering that the 2008 version is nearly 45 minutes longer than the 1995 version, that difference of approximately 3 minutes is, in my opinion, negligible.
It makes me wonder why on earth the 2008 version was often touted as the version that gives so much more emphasis to the male "leads" -- Brandon in particular. Was it just for publicity? I think it might have been. If I recall correctly, David Morrissey was a bit hesitant at first to take on the role of Brandon, and accepted when he was assured that the male romantic leads in the BBC version would have far more screentime than the ones in the Ang Lee film. In terms of minutes, yes, they do have more screentime. But, surprisingly, the proportion of screentime they have actually appears to be somewhat smaller than in the Ang Lee version.
"Courage is found in unlikely places." ~ The Fellowship of the Ring, J.R.R. Tolkien