My Take on Lake of Fire - Lake of Fire (2007) Discussion

[–] schuey100 17 years ago

LOL. Interesting point about homosexuality :)

I'm really on the fence with this whole issue. On one hand I agree that women should have the right to choose but on the other, it's terrible that they have to and I'd prefer that they didn't.

There are some situations where I think its necessary and completely justified. A 13 year old girl that is raped, a week later she finds out she is pregnant, she can't cope, she's also mentally unstable with no support system. In such a case I don't personally have a problem if the abortion is carried out early.

However the vast majority of cases I don't think are justified and worse still, abortions, in my opinion, are allowed to take place too late.

The trick is legislating for justified cases and against those that are not. However more often than not it comes down to a value judgement, it's subjective depending on who you are and as such we're left in the difficult position of not being able to legislate. Ultimately it's impossible to draw up hard and fast rules so the decision, or better or for worse, needs to be made by the mother.

I'm not interested in religious arguments, they're ridiculous and without any grounding in reality, but there are good humanist arguments against abortion. If I had to come down on a side of the fence I would simply say that unless there is an extreme circumstance, pregnancies after 14 weeks should not be terminated. A woman should justify her decision to a medical panel before a doctor is allowed to perform the procedure.

But here we go again, the more I think about what I just wrote, the more ridiculous it is, what if the panel says no? On what basis do they even come to a decision? Do we MAKE a woman go through with a pregnancy when she doesn't want to?

Crikey it's tough :) I don't think there's an answer. At least I don't have one. Does anyone else? I doubt it.

reply

[–] bliss66 17 years ago

Also, in reference to the second poster, isn't this line of thinking an invasion of the privacy that is actually protected under Roe v. Wade?

reply

[–] bliss66 17 years ago

The answer is obvious. The moment that science can locate and confirm the sexual orientation of a fetus based on genetic material will be the moment the Christian right not only embraces science but also abortion. No question there. The better question is what do we actually think of people who think nothing of holding an entire population not only hostage to their dated, ill-informed views but also welcome their execution? (Answer: Not much.)

reply

[–] guarddog 17 years ago

to bliss66

...and the moment you try to base sexual orientation on genetic makeup is the moment that you try to make humans less than human. From the viewpoint of evolution it just isn't rational to say that Homosexuality could possibly derive from a gene because it would be removed from the gene pool through the process of natual selection (aka. homosexuals don't reproduce), and therefore would become extinct. I myself like to believe homosexuality is a choice, one that can be influenced by genetic makeup, environment, and culture (but not determined by any of them, only by the individual). My genes made my body, but I am not my genes.

reply

[–] bliss66 17 years ago

I'm not going to tackle your whole personal hypothesis there however I would like to point out:

1. Genes are passed on through a complex merging of lineages. If I recall, first year Biology 101 covers reproduction and the creation/composition of genetic make-up quite thoroughly - unless, of course, you're studying to be a geneticist. (You're not, are you?)

2. Who ever said that homosexuals can't/don't reproduce?

Lastly, homosexuals must have a pretty strong survival quotient because, darling, we've been around for simply ages. It's unlikely that even heterosexuals understand the full extent of their evolutionary purpose but to say that it is simply to "reproduce" in an environment full of species that are also capable of reproduction but nonetheless have become or near extinction is a ridiculous - and sadly, all too common - reduction of Darwin's theory.

reply

[–] spanmanmc 17 years ago

Hetero or homosexuality has largely not been shown to be the result of environment, social influence, genetic disposition or other currently understood factors. Too many people beleive they are smarter than they are. Sexual orientation may be determined by some unknown biological factor that is yet to be discovered. Sexuality; and the attendant issue of abortion ethics and legal rights are very complex, and cannot be simply labeled as "a choice". Children who are raised by gay couples display the same ratio of hetero/gay disposition as those raised in a straight home.

reply

[–] CaptSC 17 years ago

"The answer is obvious. The moment that science can locate and confirm the sexual orientation of a fetus based on genetic material will be the moment the Christian right not only embraces science but also abortion. No question there."

I beg to differ.

I am a pro-life Christian, and abortion is wrong, whether aborting because there is a chance the baby will have down syndrome, whether it is the result of rape, or whether the child has an unproven "gay" gene.

Wrong is wrong.

Your flagarant generalities and biased stereotyping is breathtaking, and I sincerely hope the pro-choice movement, by-and-large, doesn't subscribe to those beliefs, as I associate the vaunted "tolerance" virtue with those on the Left.

reply

[–] bliss66 17 years ago

This is a joke, right?

Aside from the faux-outrage, poor grammar and word choice, your belief system would appear to be falling like a house of cards. You wouldn't abort a gay child but you'd gladly torture and oppress it for a lifetime?

Wow. That's some really rarefied air you're breathing on your moral high ground...

reply

[–] Nick55419 17 years ago

I always chuckle when I hear people who are pro life talking about bringing death to the evil abortionists. Could there be any more hypocrisy in such a belief? Watching this movie makes a pacifist like me want to buy a gun to protect myself from christian fundamentalists. Serious business

reply

[–] mr110482 17 years ago

im a Christian, and iv always believed abortion is wrong. . YES its a choice by the mother to do so. . or to keep the child .. we are all here to work out our slavation . .and we do so by our choices in life. but the consiquences im sure is the wrath of God. there are always other alternatives, abortion isnt the only way

ill be the first to say im not perfect . .and ill have to answer for what ive done in this life. but to get back on topic:

Thou shalt not kill, is what God says. the lord says, Vengance is mine, and i shall repay.

so its pointless to kill another for takin a life, let God work the situation out. he knows the conditions of everyones hearts, becasue he created them.

in the NewTestiment the Lord says:

[Luke 17:2] It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

reply

[–] mrbunko2956 17 years ago

What if the child grows up to be an abortion doctor? It would seem than in that case the "Nut Jobs" would have wasted lots of time saving someone they are going to kill eventually anyway! I just came up with a great idea, IF YOU ARE AGAINST ABORTION, DON'T HAVE ONE!

reply

[–] jmj821 17 years ago

The vast majority of Christians do not condone the murder of abortion doctors. I was raised in a conservative Baptist church where most of the people were opposed to abortion; however, I only knew a handful who actually took the time to protest outside of clinics. They did it peacefully, maintaining the mandatory distance outside of the clinic, offering patients alternative options, holding signs, etc. You could make the point that they were hassling patients, but their actions were as legal as the actions of those actually getting an abortion.

Making broad statements about Christians (even "fundamentalist" Christians) wanting abortion doctors to die is like assuming the practicing Muslim who lives around the corner is probably a terrorist. It shows a lack of understanding about normal conservative Christian culture. For the most part, these are the people who give more to charity, to those in need, to their families and friends, than any other sub-culture in the United States. Check out the following:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2006/12/06/who_gives_to_charity

http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2006/12/10/who_gives/

Go ahead and berate Christians for their beliefs, but vitriolic, ad-hominem statements don't contribute to the abortion debate as they misrepresent mainstream Christianity.

reply

[–] woody2k3 17 years ago

I agree with you jmj821. I have never met a Christian that wants to kill a doctor who perform abortions. that's like less than 1% of Christians. But it's great to put on film and as a result, non-Christians assume most Christians are like that b/c that's how we get portrayed. People in my church would befriend that doctor, talk with him and show him love. Christ was always hanging out with the bad people. but consider this:

when a plane crashes and some people live and some die...atheists say that God has no right to choose who lives and die and they even call him immoral and an unjust God, which is why they don't believe in Him. But they also say that when a woman has the choice of a child to live or die...that is considered her moral right. Make sense? not to me.

reply

[–] Zoober 16 years ago

atheists say that God has no right to choose who lives and die and they even call him immoral and an unjust God, which is why they don't believe in Him.

No, we don't call god anything because we don't believe he exists. When a plane crashes and some die and some don't, god doesn't enter into it for an atheist. You have a misunderstanding of atheism if you think we don't believe in god because we disagree with his traits (we would have to believe in something to disagree with it).

reply

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]