Anyone else disappointed by the ending (SPOILERS) - Forbrydelsen (2021) Discussion

[–] bilko-1 14 years ago

It was all nonsense! But extremely enjoyable nonsense.
There is no way that you would have twenty different suspects in twenty days. We know this but go along for the ride. In the meantime, the characters draw you in and make you suspend disbelief.

The scene when Sarah's jumper comes face to face with Vagn's sweatshirt was absolutely incredible. One of the most chilling, I have ever seen.

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[–] Gary-161 14 years ago

He took her to the basement to rape her. He couldn't hang around in the flat because it was used by too many people. My understanding is he was wearing the necklace as a trophy? Nanna tore it off him.

What I couldn't understand is why Vagn tried to get Theis to kill the teacher if he wanted to keep an idealized family unit together. Theis would almost certainly be charged.

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[–] ironjade 14 years ago

Maybe Vagn intended to take Theis' place?
This may be the first time in my life that #i actually figured out who the killer was in a whodunit in the first episode or so; normally I'm totally off target.
In series 2 the killer is much harder to spot.

"Make me a baby!
Make me a star!
Leave my coffin slightly ajar!"
- Lesley Gore

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[–] bilko-1 14 years ago

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I believe that they made the killer so obvious that nobody would have suspected him. Everyone I know had Vagn fingered early on, but they all said "Nah! Too obvious."

It was all manipulative nonsense ....... but brilliant!

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[–] Gary-161 14 years ago

An awful lot of people claim to have known the identity of the killer from the get go. One word. Pinocchio.

I had no clue who was reponsible. Even when we were shown the Sara 84 logo I was sure there was a twist to come. The performance of the actor who played Vagn was brilliant.

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[–] bendipa 14 years ago

An awful lot of people claim to have known the identity of the killer from the get go. One word. Pinocchio.

Absolutely. Vagn was one of a few suspects but it was never that obvious to me until eps 17/18 It could just as easily have been Holck, until they proved he was in the wrong place at the time of the attack in the flat. Once he was dispatched there was really only one main character suspect left, and the police hadn't focused on him yet.

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[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] bendipa 14 years ago

What I couldn't understand is why Vagn tried to get Theis to kill the teacher if he wanted to keep an idealized family unit together. Theis would almost certainly be charged.

Vagn was a serious racist and was happy to goad Theis into assaulting Rama. He didn't want Theis to kill Rama - just beat the hell out of him. If you recall he became nervous when he thought Theis was going too far. Vagn never genuinely cared about the Birk Larsens. It was all an act He saw himself secure as part of the family and business and had Theis been locked up he would take over running the business..

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[–] Gary-161 14 years ago

To a certain extent, I believe he saw them as objects for his own gratification. Hence his ability to strike Theis when he wouldn't do what he wanted. But I can't agree he didn't care for the Larsens. He was (perversely) hurt when they wouldn't give him access to their kids. Killing Nanna was a better option to him than Theis thinking ill of him. If he had no respect for Theis he wouldn't have owed him an explanation and given him the opportunity to exact vengeance. I think he was a split personality. A more giving and normal working class bloke away from his offending behaviour.

Theis encouraged Vagn in violent behaviour. Karma eventually bit him on the ass.

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[–] bendipa 14 years ago

But I can't agree he didn't care for the Larsens. He was (perversely) hurt when they wouldn't give him access to their kids. Killing Nanna was a better option to him than Theis thinking ill of him. If he had no respect for Theis he wouldn't have owed him an explanation and given him the opportunity to exact vengeance. I think he was a split personality. A more giving and normal working class bloke away from his offending behaviour.

Theis encouraged Vagn in violent behaviour. Karma eventually bit him on the ass.

The point about Vagn appearing hurt when the Birk Larsens wouldn't hand over their kids to him was he realised for the first time that Theis and Pernille had become genuinely suspicious of him, and that his time was running out. Giving Theis the chance for vengeance had nothing to do with respect for him. The alternative was life imprisonment or suicide. Rather than commit suicide himself with the gun he goaded Theis into killing him, which of course was of no benefit to Theis as he would have been locked up for manslaughter and therefore deprived of his family. In a way he was like thinking "If I can't be part of your familly, then neither will you"

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[–] Gary-161 14 years ago

It was of benefit to Theis. They were simply two sides to the same coin. It was all about Faustian pacts.

If Vagn didn't really care for the family, he would have killed Nanna. He couldn't do it. So he let the water do it.

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[–] bendipa 14 years ago

It was of benefit to Theis. They were simply two sides to the same coin. It was all about Faustian pacts.

If Vagn didn't really care for the family, he would have killed Nanna. He couldn't do it. So he let the water do it.

How could goading Theis into committing manslaughter (at the very least) possibly be of benefit to him? Theis is now deprived of his family for probably years as well as the charge of GBH on Rama, also largely down to Vagn goading him on, despite knowing that Rama was innocent.

There was no pact, Faustian or otherwise. Vagn knew by giving Theis the gun that he was committing suicide. He just didn't have the balls to shoot himself, and at the same time knowing it would land Theis in even deeper water. Like I suggested he never genuinely cared for Theis. He manipulated him throughout their relationship.

Vagn murdered Nanna. In telling Theis he couldn't kill her was sheer hypocrisy, and a desperate cowardly excuse on his part to try and soften up the blow of his confession. Furthermore in his confession he omitted that he raped Nanna, part and parcel of the same thing.

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[–] Gary-161 14 years ago

It is hard to fathom but the family dynamic was central to the story. Vagn actually believed he was a family member. That family was the one good thing in his life. Theis and Pernille were like his mum and dad and he is the needy and resentful son who feels underappreciated. That is what made the eel story so pathetic. Things got especially complicated with his feelings for his "sister" Nanna. There is no question he cared about the family and especially Theis, who was his close friend for twenty years. He was a troubled man who couldn't take rejection.

Yes, he murdered Nanna by proxy, but the point is if he had killed her in the same way as his first girlfriend fifteen years ago, he would likely not have been caught. But he couldn't do it.

Theis and Vagn did have a pact on two previous occasions. That is, they deal with matters extra-judicially through violence. I suppose this contrasts with the more genteel violence of the middle class characters at the Town Hall, who put each other in hospital without actually laying a glove on each other. It is that family dynamic again, with the father taking the son shooting. Vagn ultimately had to be punished by "dad." I think that scene was the closest he got to actual remorse. And he understood Theis only too well.

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[–] badjuju_00 14 years ago

I don't really buy the part about letting the water do it. He wanted her to suffer and drowning is a more terrifying way to die.

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[–] Gary-161 14 years ago

He was sincere. That is why he got caught.

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[–] freddythreepwood 13 years ago

I guess its all a matter of opinion in the end.. but I got the impression that Vagn was pretty much as good as a family member. He seemed to be always there for them, genuinely attached to the kids, etc etc. I couldn't figure all that to be just an act.

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[–] TheGunde 14 years ago

The worst part about the ending was that it made everything with Troels completely irrelevant, unnecessary and a waste of time.

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[–] Gary-161 14 years ago

It was neither unnecessary or irrelevant, unless you want exactly two suspects in a serial. The corruption story had quite a substantial bearing on the case and nearly scuppered it. It is to the credit of the producers that the town hall story wasn't just fluff, but was a story in itself which also related themetically to the Birk Larsen's story.

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[–] PoppyTransfusion 14 years ago

I think Vagn moved her from the flat because he went there on a whim (this is what he was telling Theis before Theis shot him) to allegedly talk her out of going away with Amir. He did apparently rape her there and I am assuming that after this rape he decided he would have to kill her because it would spoil his life otherwise. So he subdued her and moved her to a place he was familiar with and where he knew he would not be disturbed - the house. The forest was symbolic for him and whatever his fantasy was; it was near to the canal where he dumped Mette's body and may have been where he shot her. At some point early on (was it Bengt?) there is mention that the killer felt confident in the forest and let Nanna run free as it pleased him to torture her so and he knew he could easily recapture her.

Having suggested the above I was dissatisfied from the point where Meyer was shot and I hated the Se7en-like denouement. Bah! Bengt said early on that the killer was controlled and planned everything. So this controlled person planned before Anton found Nanna's passport to take Theis to the forest on the night of Anton's birthday and get Theis to shoot him dead? he planned to shoot Meyer at the warehouse? Even though Meyer would had been momentarily stunned after being bashed with a door when Vagn could make his escape? Both rubbish ideas in my mind and unnecessary. OK I know a lot of it wasn't plausible, but it was tightly written and seemed to hang together. The ending seemed to come unravelled.

rouge silk,
fierce concentrated joy,
fires the blood

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[–] Gary-161 14 years ago

>>The forest was symbolic for him and whatever his fantasy was; it was near to the canal where he dumped Mette's body and may have been where he shot her.

I don't think it was a fantasy as such. He just dealt with his anger issues with women in a certain way. He took Nanna to where he had successfully disposed of his previous victim. I don't think he let her free to chase her sadistically. He was telling the truth when he said she just got away from him and he was unable to kill her.

>>So this controlled person planned before Anton found Nanna's passport to take Theis to the forest on the night of Anton's birthday and get Theis to shoot him dead?

I don't think so. Anton's present was planned several days before. He simply took advantage of the situation when he realised the police were closing in.

>>he planned to shoot Meyer at the warehouse? Even though Meyer would had been momentarily stunned after being bashed with a door when Vagn could make his escape?

No, Vagn wasn't expecting the cops to be there. He could have run but Meyer would have got up quickly and followed him. He also didn't care for Meyer insulting him during his interrogation.

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[–] PoppyTransfusion 14 years ago

This is what I find most unsatisfactory: conflict between the profile/how Sarah was initially investigating vs outcome. Bengt gave Sarah a profile of the killer based on her early developments in kind and it was suggested near the beginning that the killer had let Nanna run as part of a torture plan (I don't think this was suggested by Bengt). The profile said that the killer was a planner who would not act spontaneously. The denouement and last 2 episodes undermined this without any explanation. My questions were more expressions of displeasure than genuine questions. The melodramatic end just didn't fit.

rouge silk,
fierce concentrated joy,
fires the blood

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[–] Gary-161 14 years ago

>>Bengt gave Sarah a profile of the killer based on her early developments in kind and it was suggested near the beginning that the killer had let Nanna run as part of a torture plan (I don't think this was suggested by Bengt).

Early developments being the operative words. Profiles are merely speculation. Nanna's murder was atypical to Vagn's other killings (of women) because it was what is technically known as a "disorganized murder." That is, he didn't go to the flat with the specific intention of killing her. As he said to Theis, "you never know what is going to happen."

>>The profile said that the killer was a planner who would not act spontaneously.

Well, that was accurate. Vagn was a planner and consummate liar. I think the profile was refering to sexually motivated crime. Obviously, you may have to improvise quickly if someone has the goods on you.

>>The melodramatic end just didn't fit.

As I said to a previous poster, I think it did fit psychologically. Obviously, when you lose control of events, you lose the ability to plan comprehensively.

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[–] PoppyTransfusion 14 years ago

Was there any explanation given for Vagn murdering Mette? Was it because she broke up with him?

I guess my dissatisfaction is because I enjoyed the profile that Sarah had been developing and sought Bengt's professional opinion on and this seemed to just disappear from the plot. I would have liked Vagn to have been arrested and seen him interviewed for development of character and criminal psychology.

rouge silk,
fierce concentrated joy,
fires the blood

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[–] bendipa 14 years ago

guess my dissatisfaction is because I enjoyed the profile that Sarah had been developing and sought Bengt's professional opinion on and this seemed to just disappear from the plot. I would have liked Vagn to have been arrested and seen him interviewed for development of character and criminal psychology.

But Vagn was arrested and interviewed - ep 17, and re-arrested just after Leon went on the run - ep 18 Bengt's profile did not disappear from the plot. He suggested to Sarah that Nanna's killer had murdered before. Sarah investigated the earliest case of the missing girls, that of Mette.She was told at the end of ep 20 to drop any more missing girl investigations as part of her deal if she wanted to stay in the job.

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[–] Gary-161 14 years ago

>>Was there any explanation given for Vagn murdering Mette? Was it because she broke up with him?

No explanation, but that was the implication. It was not clear whether he was a serial killer. I believe only two bodies were found. Other cases were not linked for political reasons.

>>I guess my dissatisfaction is because I enjoyed the profile that Sarah had been developing and sought Bengt's professional opinion on and this seemed to just disappear from the plot.

Not disappear exactly but I think the police were trying to understand why the victim had been drowned. So the profile took the available facts and concluded it fitted a ritualized and sadistic sex killer. This turned out to be wide of the mark. That is often what happens in real life. A profile turns out to be right in some respects and wrong in others (the Washington snipers case springs to mind.)

>>I would have liked Vagn to have been arrested and seen him interviewed for development of character and criminal psychology.

He was interviewed and Meyer's profile turned out to be on the money. Especially the "ragheads" comment. So if you combine this with his confession to Theis, we got a fair insight into his personal psychology which seemed to stem from childhood insecurities, never having a mother, etc.

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[–] markskinuk-27-870544 14 years ago

First of all, what a magnificent programme crafted and plotted so brilliantly. My unanswered questions are not so much to do with the actual murder but the shenanigans going on at City Hall and in particular who was spying for who? Did Morten send the initial email about Troels' car to the press or was it Olav, the civil servant? When Morten comes clean he mentions that he intended to grass on Troels after the election and so kept things at the flat pretty much as he found them (possibly the most improbable plot point of the entire series but we'll gloss over that.) So did he email the press about the car as a way of finding out whether Troels was the killer? If it was Olav then who was he working for? As far as I could tell he was just in the pay of Holck for letting him use the flat for his trysts with Nanna - or did he just hate Troels because he wouldn't promote him? When Olav confronts Bremer in the car park he implies that he thought he was working for Bremer through another party (presumably Holck) but this never gets mentioned again.

And am I the only one who wonders why the shadowy powers that be were quite so keen to stifle the investigation? If they were protecting Troels they didn't do a very good job considering he was under arrest for a while - and Brix seemed only too keen to pin it on him. Considering the murderer turned out to be a family friend of the Birk Larsens why did they care so much that the case was swept under the carpet? The perp wasn't somebody 'important' in their eyes.

Plus how did Vagn know where Leon would be when he killed him?

But enough questions. Utterly addictive, roll on series 2!

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[–] bendipa 14 years ago

Plus how did Vagn know where Leon would be when he killed him?

Probably found out from his brother as he was the only one who knew of Leon's whereabouts..

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[–] Gary-161 14 years ago

I think it was just Holck manipulating things because he didn't want his career buggered up. I found it a bit unlikely he would run someone over for the sake of keeping a poorly paid civil servant job. It's not like it's the Whitehouse. But the contention of the series is that petty bureaucrats are so power crazed they would do anything to hold on to some office paper clips.

>>When Olav confronts Bremer in the car park he implies that he thought he was working for Bremer through another party (presumably Holck) but this never gets mentioned again.

Well, he obviously was working for Holck without Bremer's knowledge. What is puzzling is why Bremer didn't use the "incriminating" photo he had of Troels and Nanna. Instead he sat on it while endlessly muttering in meetings that he had the goods on Troel.

>>Considering the murderer turned out to be a family friend of the Birk Larsens why did they care so much that the case was swept under the carpet? The perp wasn't somebody 'important' in their eyes.

Yes, that is puzzling. Maybe because they tried to suppress a connection to other cases when Troels was the chief suspect, they didn't want to draw attention to their cover up by opening those files again.

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] at7000 14 years ago

You're right. Great series, but it needed one, or even two more episodes to clear up all the loose-ends and unresolved sub-plots.

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[–] bendipa 14 years ago

There were only a few unanswered questions. The only major one for me was how did Vagn track down Leon and manage to get aboard and leave the ship without being spotted. This seemed a glaring plot hole. It seemed liked the writer glossed over that problem.

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[–] badjuju_00 14 years ago

Regarding Bremer not showing the picture... as manipulative as Bremer was, he felt that Troels was a good politician - someone not done in by years in politics and he respected that. Bremer was not sure if Troels was the killer, but he wanted the police to investigate and find evidence of Troels' guilt rather than for Troels to be tried in the court of public opinion.

Bremer liked Troels - Troels had fresh ideas, was sensible, and was not the average politician. The irony in all this is after Bremer had given the photo and by the time the investigation had ended, Troels has turned out to be just like any other politician. He won the election, but lost himself.

Even though the murderer was not someone else, it had done a lot of damage. In politics, image is everything and the connections to a 19 year old murdered girl is never a good thing. What the public remembers is you were accused of something, not were exonerated.

Another reason is, in my opinion, the investigation was a mess. They accused anyone and everyone and politicians have to save face for the next election and deals. The police department could have easily been accused of being inept (15+ suspects in 2 weeks, a dead cop, ruined career of a great teacher), so they need to put the matter to bed quickly. Even though the case was solved, the innocents could look guilty.

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[–] bendipa 14 years ago

They accused anyone and everyone and politicians have to save face for the next election and deals. The police department could have easily been accused of being inept (15+ suspects in 2 weeks),

I think you must have been watching a different show to me.There were only 4 real suspects through the series, ie John, Rama, Troels and Vagn, Troels being the only one to be charged with the crime. Leon might be considered a 5th suspect, from the time Lund spotted him at Vagn's flat, but his fate eliminated him.The first suspect, John who panicked when he saw the police was soon ruled out. Rama was about to be charged because he wouldn't come clean about his activity the night of the crime, and the circumstantial evidence against him at the time was compelling. Troels wouldn't come clean either because of his shame over his attempted suicide, and he appeared to be in the right place at the wrong time with a false alibi.. Finally Vagn, the last suspect didn't become obvious to Lund until ep 19. All others were routinely questioned as witnesses because they were associated with or knew the murdered girl or the 2 main suspects, rather than being serious suspects themselves..

No way were the police inept. They simply dealt with the evidence as it presented itself, except they were dealing with a clever criminal who managed to avoid detection until near the end.

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[–] badjuju_00 14 years ago

You're probably right - it just felt like each episode had a new suspect. LOL

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[–] PoppyTransfusion 14 years ago

Weren't Holck and Dessau suspects too?

The world forgetting, by the world forgot
Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind

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[–] bendipa 14 years ago

Holck and Dessau were only suspects questioned in regard to Olav's death rather than NBL's murder. Both were known to drive white estate cars witnessed at the hit and run scene, although at the time when she went to visit Holck, Lund did not yet know that he drove a white estate. Meyer had already found this out. Lund went to see Holck over the payments made to Olav and his trip to Latvia, then discovered his estate car.. .

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[–] Expat_Mark 14 years ago

Like just about everyone else here I absolutely loved the series and watched it just about non-stop. I too was a little frustrated at the ending and I came to IMDB hoping someone had sorted it all out. The fact that we cannot sort it all out is, in some ways, comforting because that is, many times, how life is. I couldn't help but think back to the "Big Sleep" where one murder went unsolved and even the writers admitted they had no idea who did it. I suggest we take it all with a little grain of salt and just enjoy it.

The cast was absolutely superb, top to bottom. While I did not particularly like Nanna's mother as a person, her grief was real and the characterization fantastic. Much as I hated the character of the prosecutor I couldn't fault him for hauling in and charging Sarah, the circumstantial evidence was too much to ignore. As it progressed I began to pay more attention to the smaller details of each character, their facial expressions, mannerisms, etc. A very accomplished group of actors/actresses. In the end I would have given an award to just about everyone involved.

Someone, in another thread on this board, said this was not as good as "The Wire". I have no idea what "The Wire" is but my interest is piqued. Well I am off to watch Forbrydelsen II with the highest of hopes. Chau.

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[–] Gary-161 14 years ago

>>I couldn't help but think back to the "Big Sleep" where one murder went unsolved and even the writers admitted they had no idea who did it.

Ah, yes. The infamous chauffer! I wondered about that at the time. As you say, someone contacted Chandler and he admitted it didn't make sense either.

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[–] rainbird131162 14 years ago

No.

Mai Yamane! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-sYFirfywY&feature=related

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[–] Librartist2 14 years ago

I am watching the 2011 TV version and I'd like to know who plays Vagn in the new show?

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[–] steproctor 14 years ago

I agree with some of the comments, so much effort went into the majority of this series, unfortunately the ending was poor and seemed very rushed. I realise the writer and director wanted to keep people guessing for as long as possible but I was left with a feeling of disappointment. After 19 excellent episodes.....

They did a great job making you think that the police chief was tied up in some political conspiracy. I also think the Sarah Lund - killing her partner was also a weakness for a number of reasons.

Anyone who looks like Paul Whitehouse in a sketch with Harry Enfield is always guilty ;-)

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[–] Fiercelyred 13 years ago

Anyone else feels the same way?

Yes. For one, it seems very Se7en (the ending with Vagn I mean). And then there's the strange feeling of things left unresolved. But all in all, a very, very well written and acted series.

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