Can someone please explain this paradox? - Interstellar (2014) Discussion

[–] BB-15 8 years ago

by EyeInSky;

"It is COOPER that gives HIMSELF the coordinates to NASA!!! He influenced the gravitational "pull" of the falling dust and created those NASA coordinates for himself and his daughter to see!!!'

Correct.

"So here lies my problem...

I have no issue with the continuous "loop" of Cooper giving himself the coordinates to NASA, but this is PROVIDING THERE IS SOME WAY FOR COOPER AND HIS DAUGHTER TO DISCOVER THE NASA SITE IN THE FIRST PLACE APART FROM 4TH-5TH DIMENSIONAL COOPER GIVING HIMSELF THE COORDINATES!'

It seems that Cooper and his daughter depend on an event from the future to guide them in the past which will lead to things happening in the future.

"The only reason why he is able to do it is because he's in the 4th / 5th dimension of the tesseract while in the black hole. A journey he would never go on unless he discovered the NASA site on his own. So are we watching the movie after the loop has been established - and we are seeing Cooper #2 through Cooper # infinity playing itself over & over again like a broken record?"

I don't think we are seeing future Cooper and past Cooper playing the same event repeatedly.
That's just my view which I will get into more detail below.

"I would like to know how Cooper #1 was FIRST able to give Cooper #2 the NASA coordinates in the first place. Is it possible that Cooper #1 died an eventual death (by whatever natural causes), and it was first his spirit giving away the information of the NASA coordinates (and later on it was Cooper #2 giving both the NASA coordinates AND the gravity equation)?"

Future Cooper is not a spirit imo.

** OK, now I'm going to give my over view of time travel in "Interstellar".
It's going to get detailed and a little bit technical which I hope you don't mind.

* First I'll give a short answer;
- "Interstellar" seems to have time travel with no paradox. Things have to happen a certain way.
And the distant future events in the movie depend on communication from the future to the past.
- To understand this imo it helps to see how the film uses the ideas of science advisor, Kip Thorne (though it can stretch them and go beyond them sometimes).
I'll get into more detail about that below.

** The long answer;
- This is a summary of the self consistency principle and time travel. Imo this concept is used in "Interstellar".

Igor Dmitriyevich Novikov ... called the self-consistency principle, ... In its simplest form, it says in essence that time travel is only possible if it does not cause a paradox. In that sense, it is a restatement of fixed time theory, in which somehow the universe knows what actions in the past will cause a paradox and chooses to prevent such actions.

http://www.mjyoung.net/time/theory101.html

- What are time travel paradoxes?
The Grandfather Paradox is probably the most famous.

a person who travels to the past and kills their own grandfather, preventing the existence of their father or mother and therefore their own existence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox

While almost all time travel science fiction TV / movies allow for paradoxes (such as "Back to the Future"), it seems that "Interstellar" does not.
- "Interstellar" seems to follow the self consistency principle.

Why?
* Back to science advisor, Kip Thorne;
- He's done research into time travel through wormholes for instance;

Thorne and his co-worker at Caltech conducted scientific research on whether the laws of physics permit space and time to be multiply connected (can there exist classical, traversable wormholes and "time machines"?)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip_Thorne#Wormholes_and_time_travel

That gives the method of time travel.
A black hole connected to a white hole can = a wormhole.
- In the film Cooper goes into a black hole (seemingly artificially created) where he enters a thing called a tesseract. This area could be part of some kind of artificial wormhole which therefore can lead to time travel (in theory and not the way it is shown in the film but it is science FICTION after all).

Once in the wormhole, what kind of time travel can be done?
From the same Wiki article about Kip Thorne;

Recent calculations by Thorne indicate that simple masses passing through traversable wormholes could never engender paradoxes – there are no initial conditions that lead to paradox once time travel is introduced. If his results can be generalized, they would suggest that none of the supposed paradoxes formulated in time travel stories can actually be formulated at a precise physical level:

- Only simple masses can travel though time. (The movie only allows gravity waves to travel through time.)
- And whatever that simple mass does in the past, it cannot create a paradox. (The gravity waves in the film cannot create a time paradox.)
Time travel in "Interstellar" cannot alter anything in the past like in "Back to the Future".

* Now to Jonathan Nolan, brother of Christopher, who co-wrote the script.

- First a question to Jonathan Nolan;

IGN: I want to hone in on that moment in the black hole where Cooper imagines that we - as a species - evolved ... we could physicalize time in order to send a message back to an earlier point in our evolution then it sort of creates a paradox, which is okay, we often see paradoxes in science fiction....

Jonathan Nolan's answer seems to be that information could be sent from the future.
And maybe the way time travel is done in "Interstellar" would not create a paradox.

Nolan: But the idea that information can travel through time is entirely possible.

Nolan Con't: Like I said, the bookshelf. We've found a way to pass ideas in the future -- not yet a way to pass ideas and information into the past. That creates -- well, frankly, all paradoxes, if you can translate information in the past, you can create almost as many paradoxes as you could if you transmitted people into the past. But the idea that you could transmit information into the past is a lot more of a palatable and grounded idea.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11/08/jonathan-nolan-interstellar-spoilers

- Complete time travel with human being traveling that transmit ideas and information (doing physical things) can create paradoxes.
- But information alone is more grounded and it seems can't create a paradox.

** What does all of this information tell me about "Interstellar"?
- As the movie starts and progresses; do we hear about and then see that wormhole? Yes.
Later we learn about and see the black hole.
- That wormhole and the black hole were created by the descendants of the humans on earth.

- What does that mean?
Using the self consistency principal (and Kip Thorne's ideas) this means that there is only one timeline which leads to the creation of that wormhole and black hole.
- And this timeline cannot be changed which would stop that creation which would be a paradox which cannot happen.
- This means that Cooper must do things which will eventually lead to events happening.
His fate is to get to the black hole, go into the tesseract and manipulate gravity in the past
A. So the past Cooper and past Murph must read the code on the dust on the floor correctly to do the things seen in the film;
B. Past Cooper must go to NASA.
C. Past Murph must figure out the anti-gravity formula.
D. Then humanity has to leave earth in giant space stations. They must travel to the wormhole. They have to go to another planet and colonize it. And eventually humanity must evolve to a point so that they create the artificial wormhole, black hole (with tesseract).

That one timeline cannot be changed. It contains time loops (Cooper and the future humans affecting the past) and that also cannot be changed.

* One result of this view of the story is to realize how powerful the rules of the movie are.
The tidal wave, Matt Damon's character, dust storms, etc. Nothing can prevent the central things in this time line from occuring.
- Cooper must get to the tesseract and communicate with himself and Murph.
- I'm not saying he needs to do this like any other character in other films.

* I mean that the universe in this film will not allow any other outcome.
The universe will shape/control events so that Cooper will send information from the future and that information will be interpreted properly so that Cooper goes to NASA and Murph figures out the formula.

** So, when you see "Interstellar" again, realize that while lots of characters in the film are upset, you know and I know that everything must turn out alright.
Not because it is a movie and we know how it will end.
- The happy ending will occur according to the science theories adapted for the movie.
There is no person or event in the film that can stop humanity from being saved.

Interesting don't you think?

BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

I am going to re-read what you said in more detail when I have time to review the links you gave. Your outline is certainly the main issue I agree with (but also have a problem with):

A. So the past Cooper and past Murph must read the code on the dust on the floor correctly to do the things seen in the film;
... YES!
B. Past must Cooper must go to NASA
... YES!
C. Past Murph must figure out the anti-gravity formula.
... YES!
D. Then humanity must leave earth in giant space stations. They must travel to the wormhole. They have to go to another planet and colonize it. And eventually humanity must evolve to a point so that they create the artificial wormhole, black hole (with tesseract).
... YES, YES, & YES! However, I believe the supermassive black hole is real but the wormhole and tesseract are created by the higher dimensional beings.

So my question still remains...

How does the *FIRST* Cooper go on this mission in the first place - since it was only because of the FUTURE Cooper that gave him the NASA coordinates to begin with that he found the NASA site with his daughter! So you see what I'm saying?

The movie shows FUTURE Cooper giving his daughter the gravitational equation, I'm good with that because the daughter would have normally died on decaying earth and it's because of the father's message that she was able to later (in an alternate future) decipher the gravity equation to lift those huge stations.

But the movie also shows FUTURE Cooper giving himself the NASA coordinates. I'm sure he wants to "make sure" Cooper is able to go to NASA in the first place... to go on that mission to send TARS in the black hole, etc. But without Cooper finding NASA, he never goes through the wormhole nor goes in the black hole & tesseract. So again, I'm primarily STILL concerned with Cooper #1 (not the Cooper loop). How does Cooper #1 (not Cooper #2 thru Cooper # infinity) get to NASA in the first place?

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

to EyeInSky; I'm enjoying this. I hope you are too. ;-)

"So my question still remains...

How does the *FIRST* Cooper go on this mission in the first place - since it was only because of the FUTURE Cooper that gave him the NASA coordinates to begin with that he found the NASA site with his daughter! So you see what I'm saying?"

OK. I've presented the idea of a timeline as a whole.
I'll go through some of the ABCs again;
A. The past Cooper must read the code on the dust on the floor correctly
B. Past Cooper must go to NASA
C. Cooper must get to the tesseract and manipulate it.
And so on until...
G. Future humanity manipulates events in the past.

You are assuming that C follows A and that G follows A and so on.
But it doesn't have to in this movie.

* The first event in the story's timeline is probably G. Future humanity manipulates events in the past (with the wormhole, black hole and tesseract).
How can that be? How can the last event be first?
- Because the advanced humans can do things which are outside of linear time.
- Everything that the advanced humans create is made of gravity; the wormhole, the black hole / tesseract.
And those things don't obey the rule that C or G must come after A, etc.

You are posing a question;

"But the movie also shows FUTURE Cooper giving himself the NASA coordinates. I'm sure he wants to "make sure" Cooper is able to go to NASA in the first place... to go on that mission to send TARS in the black hole, etc. But without Cooper finding NASA, he never goes through the wormhole nor goes in the black hole & tesseract. So again, I'm primarily STILL concerned with Cooper #1 (not the Cooper loop). How does Cooper #1 (not Cooper #2 thru Cooper # infinity) get to NASA in the first place?"

You are trying to imagine a timeline without a future Cooper and without the future advanced humans who created the wormhole and the black hole/tesseract.
- But in this kind of time travel such a timeline does not exist.
There can only be one timeline.
Cooper #1 always exists with Cooper #2 and Cooper # infinity and with the advanced humans.
They are always in the same timeline.

* Now you seem to have some misgivings about this idea.
It's kind of hard to swallow. In most time travel science fiction movies / TV multiple timelines are used or time travel creates a another universe.
I even came up with a multiverse explanation of "Interstellar". But it was only my personal explanation.

- It seems (from Kip Thorne's ideas and what was said by the film makers) the science used for the movie and the science fiction added does not use multiple timelines or a multiverse idea.
In the film time sometimes does not follow a sequence as we understand it.
- The future humans can create things with gravity which are outside of the sequence of time.
This is science fiction and not hard science.
https://www.yahoo.com/movies/interstellar-ending-explained-102298382597.html

But we can try to accept the rules of the film for a moment and go with the fiction as explained by the VFX Supervisor Paul Franklin in “Interstellar.

he states that Cooper isn’t actually traveling backwards in time. In the Tesseract, Cooper exists outside of time, but only in a single place: the bedroom of his daughter, Murph (who was played by Mackenzie Foy as a child and by Jessica Chastain as an adult).

“[Coop] can send a message into normal spacetime,” continued Franklin. “And he can physically move these worldlines or extrusions as we call them. That sends a wave traveling along these things and that enters the room and affects the objects that are inside the room."

http://nerdist.com/go-inside-the-tesseract-from-interstellar/

The fiction is that for Cooper in the tesseract, the sequence idea does not apply to him.
And the same can be said of the futuristic humans. They can create things which are outside of time through gravity.

There is always past Cooper, future Cooper and future humans in one big blob of time existing together sometimes in the same moment.
The C/G following A idea of time does not apply to this.
And there is only one timeline.

That's what the rules of the film seem to be presenting.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hi BB,

Of course I'm enjoying this. It's hard to find like-minded people to have this type of deep discussion. Let me respond to your comments:

You are trying to imagine a timeline without a future Cooper and without the future advanced humans who created the wormhole and the black hole/tesseract.
- But in this kind of time travel such a timeline does not exist.
There can only be one timeline.
Cooper #1 always exists with Cooper #2 and Cooper # infinity and with the advanced humans.
They are always in the same timeline.

You are assuming that B follows A and that C follows B and so on.
But it doesn't have to in this movie.

* The first event in the story's timeline is probably G. Humanity creates the wormhole, black hole (with tesseract) in the past which is part of the timeline..
How can that be? How can the last event be first?
- Because the advanced humans can do things which are outside of linear time.
- Everything that the advanced humans create is made of gravity; the wormhole, the black hole / tesseract.
And those things are outside of linear time..

...I actually agree that future dimensional beings created the wormhole & tesseract, and that this part of the story happened first (even though we don't come to realize these elements until the middle of the film). Since the center of every major galaxy has a supermassive black hole I'm still believing the black hole always existed, but the future humans created the wormhole to take us there while also creating the tesseract to protect Cooper on his journey.

... When you stop to think about it, the future generational beings (assuming these are the embryos from Edmund's planet that young Dr. Brand is watching over)... EVEN THEY WOULDN'T EXIST TO CREATE THE WORMHOLE IN THE FIRST PLACE IF COOPER DOESN'T MAKE HIS INITIAL JOURNEY! Since it's Cooper's initial journey that brings everything there in the first place, right?

... I'm not sure if we are talking apples to apples here. I'm asking you to imagine a VERY FIRST Cooper. Perhaps it's one we don't see in the movie. I'm totally okay (sort of) with the 4th/5th dimensional beings influencing the past by creating wormholes and tesseracts. I'm also okay with these beings interacting with some of the main characters in the story! The problem I have is that the very first cooper we see (the one that takes the journey through the wormhole) RECEIVED THE NASA COORDINATES FROM HIS FUTURE SELF! I don't see how he could EVER gets to NASA (in the past) otherwise! That's the paradox. I'm okay with a FUTURE version of a person handing information to a PAST version of someone (including the same person), and once that connection is made a loop continuously occurs as if it's always happened. But I'm *NOT* okay with it if the information given is DEPENDENT on the path he was already on. That would be redundant.

Here's a similar analogy...

Let's say you are driving home from work, and at a green light a car runs the red and nearly hits you! But you successfully SWERVE to avoid the accident and everyone is safe. One day later you enter a time machine and you call yourself in the past (let's say 15 minutes prior to you getting in the car) to warn yourself of the impending crash you avoided. So you go into the car, and are at the green light and you see a car is about to run the red light. So you are "prepared" and so you successfully SWERVE to avoid the accident and you & everyone in the car is safe!

I guess if it wasn't for your phone call to yourself you could have been seriously injured! No wait... you were never going to get injured anyway because you would always avoid the accident anyway on your own (with or without warning). You see what I'm getting at? Christopher Nolan put in a scene where Cooper is able to interact with a younger version of himself to GIVE him the NASA coordinates, when evidently it wasn't ever necessary.

Or, here is a BETTER example (and one that makes sense in the movie).

Original Cooper #1 dies (let's say from starvation)! He is a ghost, and ghosts can freely travel in the 4th & 5th dimension (transcending gravity and time). Rather than "going to heaven" he decides to monitor things for a while and discovers rather than dying on earth due to starvation there is an opportunity for him to go to NASA and not only save himself but all of mankind! So his ghostly "spirit" (that humans can't see because ghosts apparently exist in the 4th & 5th dimension) interacts with Cooper to present to him and his daughter the NASA coordinates. NOW!!!!... Cooper DOES go on this journey (because of his ghost). But now that he's past the wormhole and into the black hole he's now near death.

To quote Mann: "The first thing you see when you are about to die is your children!"

This line wasn't put in there by accident! So either it was a red herring to make people worry about the severity of the situation that Cooper was about to die, or perhaps by being inside the tesseract he is already (virtually) DEAD! He is now a ghost, but can still transcend time and gravity. But this time around, the ghost of Cooper now also has the gravitational solution to save mankind now! So... he REMEMBERS the memory of "they" distorting the sandpiles (which was him all along), so he protects the loop by re-giving his older self the coordinates again. But along with that, he *NOW* uses gravity to do morse code on the watch. He's seemingly able to stay in the tesseract for quite some time (I'm assuming he can even go so forward in time to when it's older Murph holding the watch). The tesseract closes, and his *DEAD* motionless body is floating in space.

I have even speculated that Cooper visiting his elder daughter (much older due to time dilation) might have actually been his ghost and not his human self. It's a far-fetched strange theory but it's one that kinda works when you consider the mysterious ship the dock worker realizes has gone missing (and looks very confused wondering how it's even possible).

===

I think Nolan should have just had Cooper be the person to give his daughter the gravity equation, and SOMETHING ELSE... SOME OTHER FORCE APART FROM HIMSELF giving Cooper the coordinates to NASA. That way, the "4th/5th dimensional beings" could be the cause to influence Cooper into discovering NASA and Cooper himself could be the one influencing is past daughter.

I do completely understand that once Cooper GIVES his "other self's" Cooper the coordinates to NASA, at that point the loop ALWAYS happens. Cooper will always end up behind the bookcase giving younger Cooper the coordinates and Murphy the solution to gravity's problems.

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi again, EyeInSky; let's continue;

"When you stop to think about it, the future generational beings ... EVEN THEY WOULDN'T EXIST TO CREATE THE WORMHOLE IN THE FIRST PLACE IF COOPER DOESN'T MAKE HIS INITIAL JOURNEY! Since it's Cooper's initial journey that brings everything there in the first place, right?"

OK, what I have done before is give you the 'official' explanations of time travel and the timeline in "Interstellar" according to the science advisor, the film makers and the explanation which is accepted by the hard core fans of this movie.
- This explanation is what I wrote about before;

There is always past Cooper, future Cooper and future humans in one big blob of time existing together sometimes in the same moment.
The C/G following A idea of time does not apply to this.
And there is only one timeline.

But you have trouble accepting it.
You keep coming back to;

"I'm asking you to imagine a VERY FIRST Cooper. Perhaps it's one we don't see in the movie."
"The problem I have is that the very first cooper we see (the one that takes the journey through the wormhole) RECEIVED THE NASA COORDINATES FROM HIS FUTURE SELF! I don't see how he could EVER gets to NASA (in the past) otherwise! That's the paradox."

And I understand. As I also wrote;

It's kind of hard to swallow. In most time travel science fiction movies / TV multiple timelines are used or time travel creates a another universe.
I even came up with a multiverse explanation of "Interstellar". But it was only my personal explanation.

I have written about the "VERY FIRST Cooper" on another Board.
But then an "Interstellar" purist got on my case in post after post and backed me down.
- So, what I first wanted to show you is that I understand the 'official' explanations of the movie.
I am aware of the argument that the "VERY FIRST Cooper" is supposed to exist simultaneously with the advanced humans and Cooper in the tesseract.
That 'officially' time is supposed to happen all at once in "Interstellar" and not happen in an A to B to G sequence.
And officially the story has time loops with Cooper and the super advanced aliens.

* Alright, I'll put aside what the movie is supposed to mean and go with a more traditional science fiction time travel idea and one that also has some backing from scientists using different theories.

* Here is my personal interpretation of what the very first Cooper did using the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics.
Again, this is not official and fans of the movie have put me down for posting this before.

** 1. Before the movie begins, in the original timeline, humanity survived with an altered version of Plan B (embryos on another planet).
- It could have been on a Mars colony for instance.
So, the very first Cooper probably did not go to NASA. And there was no wormhole or tesseract in that timeline.
And humanity did not have an anti-gravity formula.
- But humans were able to get some people and the embryos off of earth to another planet in our solar system.

2. The survivors off of earth eventually became a super advanced civilization (in billions of years?).
This super advanced civilization was able to travel to other stars.
And they eventually used wormholes to explore the Galaxy.

3. The advanced humans remembered their distant ancestors. And they recalled that almost everyone on earth died due to the Blight.
In the future the advanced humans had the technology to be able to save those people on earth who had died in the past.

4. The advanced humans were able to create the wormhole and tesseract back in time.
- This produced an alternate reality/alternate timeline/alternate universe (according to the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics). The movie Star Trek (2009) uses this idea.

5. Then "Interstellar" begins.
- The viewer sees Cooper in an alternate timeline where the wormhole and the tesseract already exist.
This means that the Cooper we see is in an alternate reality / timeline due to the creation of the wormhole.
- What this solves is needing Cooper to create the advanced humans.
The advanced humans already existed in the original timeline. They don't depend on Cooper's actions in the alternate timeline.

6. As shown in the movie Cooper sees dust on the floor of his home and he decided to go to NASA.
What got the dust into that formation? Cooper thinks that he did it when he went to the tesseract.
- But the tesseract could have done it on its own in the future.
- Later when Cooper gets to the tesseract and he is able to see into the past into his house, he repeats what the tesseract did thinking that he needed to do it.
He (the tesseract) sent himself a message from the future. A time machine allows that.

7. Now that Cooper is in the tesseract, he also knows the anti-gravity formula and is able to send the code for it to Murph.

8. As seen in the movie; with that information Murph and humanity have the anti-gravity formula. They lift off earth's population into space stations. They get them to the wormhole which allows humanity to travel to a planet where all of humanity can survive.

* Mission accomplished by the advanced humans.

* Again, that is not the official interpretation of "Interstellar". It's an idea I cooked up.
- But it gives an answer to your paradox questions about how the very first Cooper got to NASA and how the advanced humans came about.

"Original Cooper #1 dies (let's say from starvation)! He is a ghost, and ghosts can freely travel in the 4th & 5th dimension (transcending gravity and time)."

You like the ghost idea and that's fine. But with my personal taste, I don't use magic/fantasy interpretations with a SF movie like this.

"So either it was a red herring to make people worry about the severity of the situation that Cooper was about to die"

With my interpretation, the very first Cooper in the original timeline probably does die, on earth.
The warning and vision is real.
There is a Star Trek Next Generation episode called "Parallels" which shows that every possible behavior can happen in some alternate reality.
In one reality Cooper dies on earth.
And with my personal interpretation, it happens to the very first Cooper.

"I think Nolan should have just had Cooper be the person to give his daughter the gravity equation, and SOMETHING ELSE... SOME OTHER FORCE APART FROM HIMSELF giving Cooper the coordinates to NASA. That way, the "4th/5th dimensional beings" could be the cause to influence Cooper into discovering NASA and Cooper himself could be the one influencing is past daughter."

I understand. But Nolan and his team were fixated on the idea that the timeline was one blob where past and future were happening simultaneously with time loops.

"I do completely understand that once Cooper GIVES his "other self's" Cooper the coordinates to NASA, at that point the loop ALWAYS happens. Cooper will always end up behind the bookcase giving younger Cooper the coordinates and Murphy the solution to gravity's problems."

I figured you understood the time loop idea and Nolan's time blob / things are happening simultaneously ideas too.
It just seems that you were uncomfortable with it.
And I know how that feels.

BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hey BB,

First off, I must thank you for your time AND PATIENCE! As you know, Interstellar isn't a simple movie to follow (at least if you like to dive "deeply" into it) so these conversations DO help bridge the gap of understanding and lack thereof. I find your efforts valuable, as I do think it's possible to finally resolve a frustration I've had with this movie since the day I first saw it. So hopefully I can get there (I'm trying).

In any discussion (or argument), it's important to pin-point the areas where both parties agree and the areas where they disagree. I think we can both agree the FUTURE Cooper (because he's in the tesseract) and the higher 4th/5th dimensional beings (because they are evolved) can freely move inside & out of different time frames. So the issue I have is more with the previous/younger Cooper that can only exist inside a linear timeline. He is 100% human living within the 3 dimensional + present time realm.

Secondly, I wouldn't say I'm uncomfortable with 4th/5th dimensional beings + future Cooper + previous Cooper all existing simultaneously in parts. After all, that's how the movie is presented to us. But I do think this further supports the notion that the audience was NEVER given the "background info" with the very first original Cooper. We are seeing the "time blob" movie of Cooper version "X" going through his journey and giving his other previous self the coordinates to the NASA site. The audience THINKS they are seeing "original first Cooper" simply because they don't know what they are seeing has already happened time & time again. This is probably the *most* logical explanation.

Otherwise, one would need to come up with theories and ideas not explained in the movie - such as your "Many Worlds" interpretation that involves "the tesseract giving the NASA coordinates on its own". By thinking of it this way, it would alleviate the paradox I'm complaining about. The problem is... the way the movie is presented doesn't even HINT at this happening. It's kind of like my "ghost" idea of him being in the 4th/5th dimension as a dead spirit and then later making the active surviving human choice - simply because he THINKS HE NEEDS TO (as you also mentioned above).

But again, the problem with both of these theories is that Nolan's version doesn't show EITHER of these scenarios. We are both making something up to suit our frustrations. So instead what I'm trying to do is get my mind wrapped around exactly HOW & WHY the science presented (with the time travel w/theoretical zero paradox aspect) could possibly happen. But in doing so it also needs to follow rules & logic that the characters not privy to the tesseract abilities must follow! At least in Back to the Future, the Grandfather Paradox was somewhat resolved by the filmmakers attempt to suggest a "time ripple" that supposedly gives the (#1 original version) characters some time to correct the paradox before they are destroyed. In the movie, the disappearance isn't immediate but slowly creeps up like a Twilight Zone episode. Granted, I DON'T think this is realistic!!! But at least the movie addressed the problem and gave a false answer.

I would be very curious as to what the Interstellar purists had to say about the "very 1st Cooper". Humans on earth all follow a linear timeline and live in 3 dimensions. So I'm mostly interested in this original "very 1st Cooper"... in how (exactly) did he end up in the tesseract in the first place to give himself the NASA coordinates. Either he didn't give himself the coordinates originally (but thought he did like you suggested). Or he DID give himself the NASA coordinates, but in order to do so he must have somehow landed inside the tesseract apart from the wormhole and black hole journey (somehow).

But again, the problem I have is that BOTH of these scenarios doesn't really jive with the story! So either this is a flaw from the filmmakers' perceptions of Kip Thorne's ideas, or I'm totally missing something that I cannot completely grasp yet. I'm giving the movie (not myself) the benefit of the doubt, and am assuming it is ME that is in error and not the movie! I don't think there are many IMDB'ers that are willing to accept their beliefs are wrong, as I've come across many who are so arrogant and opinionated (NOT YOU) without the willingness to give an opposing theory a good listen.

I don't think I'm a dumb guy by any means, but it does frustrate me when there is a puzzle I'm just on the verge of solving but can't quite seem to get the last 1-2 pieces in place. THAT'S how I feel about Interstellar! So either it is a flawed film that's a FASCINATING watch (along with the care and precision made to display space anomalies as accurately as possible). Or, this actually is a genius perfect movie that's just out of my reach.

Also notice that nobody else has chimed in on this question (lol). You gotta admit these are time consuming "daunting" reads if one isn't fully invested.

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Just to reiterate...

I have no qualms with the whole story pretty much taking place simultaneously. The wormhole. The tesseract at Cooper's house causing gravitational anomalies of the flying drone. The "ghost" pushing books and giving Murphy & her dad the NASA coordinates. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I did ultimately figure out all of these things were happening simultaneously (to a degree). It's just the Grandfather / Bootstrap paradox of Cooper requiring help to get to NASA so that all of these other things can (and ultimately will) happen.

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi EyeInSky;

"I have no qualms with the whole story pretty much taking place simultaneously. The wormhole. The tesseract at Cooper's house causing gravitational anomalies of the flying drone. The "ghost" pushing books and giving Murphy & her dad the NASA coordinates. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I did ultimately figure out all of these things were happening simultaneously (to a degree). It's just the Grandfather / Bootstrap paradox of Cooper requiring help to get to NASA so that all of these other things can (and ultimately will) happen."

As I wrote; "I figured you understood the time loop idea and Nolan's time blob / things are happening simultaneously ideas too.
It just seems that you were uncomfortable with it.
And I know how that feels."

It is about suspension of disbelief imo. When does that get disturbed or challenged in a movie like this?

* "Interstellar" can lead to this uncomfortable feeling by certain viewers because of this imo.
- The movie starts out with a very simple story; people living in 1930s farm houses doing very typical farmer activities.
The farmers are living in an apocalyptic future but it is very clearly shown that their culture is slowly dying due to the Blight.

"Interstellar" starts simply and clearly. What is shown with the farmers is very plausible. It is clear, hard science fiction.
And by the end of the movie, the technology by humanity and the level of science fiction about the future humans has moved away from plausible to some far out Star Trek episode level.

I mentioned this before in one of my earlier posts about the very speculative nature of the science involving the advanced future humans at the end of the film.

The future humans can create things with gravity which are outside of the sequence of time.
This is science fiction and not hard science.

And I gave a link to an article about this. I'll quote from that.

Yahoo Movies got in touch with Thorne’s colleague at Caltech, Dr. Sean Carroll, to discuss the science behind the end of the film....

Dr. Carroll: And then the stuff at the end, where they actually go inside a black hole and use some tesseract to visit and influence the past, and then somehow come out of the black hole once again was, I think, pretty far beyond anything we’d consider plausible science right now. But there’s enough we don’t know for sure that you can always say, Well, who knows?

Yahoo Movies: Is there any science that could make the stuff at the end possible?

Dr. Carroll: I think that it was mostly magic. But I think that there were a few phrases thrown out, if I caught them correctly, that were supposed to indicate that this was not a naturally occurring phenomenon — that this was some set-up by a much more advanced species that lives in a higher dimensional spacetime, and has learned a lot about how to mess with the laws of nature.

Remember, in the movie there was a brief discussion about how someone could really live in more dimensions, that they would see time as a place they could just visit, and go back and forth. I take it that what we’re supposed to imagine is that’s what happened. It’s not simply that Matthew McConaughey fell into a black hole. But that we’re being manipulated a little bit by a species that knows a lot more than we do, so they can do things that we just don’t know how to accomplish.

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/interstellar-ending-explained-102298382597.html

* These are comments by Kip Thorne's colleague who would be an expert on the science in the film.
And this colleague, Dr. Carroll says that the science of the tesseract is completely speculative. He describes it as 'magic'.
- In terms of the kind of science fiction presented in "Interstellar" there is a big style shift comparing the beginning and the end.
It begins with hard SF.
And at the end it is at a magical Star Trek level.

"So either this is a flaw from the filmmakers' perceptions of Kip Thorne's ideas, or I'm totally missing something that I cannot completely grasp yet. I'm giving the movie (not myself) the benefit of the doubt, and am assuming it is ME that is in error and not the movie!"

That is all about your exploration and personal taste of course.
For me, I've also been uncomfortable with the extreme change in styles (from the beginning to the end) of presenting science and science fiction in "Interstellar".

"Also notice that nobody else has chimed in on this question (lol)."

That may be a blessing. 

BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hi BB,

I was up until 2am last night reading stuff. This is the type of crazy things that happen when I'm on a mission (lol)! I found an *EXCELLENT* physics type read, and it even discusses the movie Interstellar quite a bit. I'm going to share a link with you now:

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/78749/bootstrap-paradox-in-interstellar/78787#78787

I can't stress enough how excellent the above article is! You really need to check it out, and there are also many other links to other questions surrounding Interstellar. When you click on the link, take a very close look at the 3 "billiard table" diagrams. It's quite fun to study them and imagine what would physically happen (for my own personal sake I correlated the time differences from 15 minute intervals to be more like 1/4 of a second intervals - so that it would be more like an actual pool table).

What's interesting about these (especially the top 2, I will get to the 3rd one later - ugh). is you can imagine taking a cue stick and hitting a ball TOWARDS the pocket. Yet... suddenly a different version of the same ball appears out of nowhere from another corner and knocks it out of the way. The only way the top 2 diagram shots could happen is if you initially made the shot in the first place. It's quite a fun imaginative scene... shooting towards a pocket with an invisible wormhole and another invisible wormhole at the left corner. If there was no time delay, you would simply see the ball entering near the right pocket and then suddenly exiting near the left pocket like magic. But once you start to put TIME into the equation it's possible the ball could interact with itself. In the diagrams, it actually HITS the ball!

TOP EXAMPLE ("Endangered Grandfathers")
The top example knocks it totally out of the way (so it doesn't go anywhere near the pocket - but that is only possible if the original trajectory WAS correct and WOULD have normally entered the pocket wormhole. So if it misses, you don't see another ball at all. if your billiard shot was accurate and the trajectory would have gone in, you would instead see a duplicate of the same ball coming out of left field to knock it out of the way (missing the shot). THE BALL CAUSING YOU TO MISS THE SHOT MEANS YOU ACTUALLY *MADE* THE SHOT! :-) Both balls are visible on the table now (the original ball, and the "other self" ball). I don't see it as a "paradox" like the description though, but you would have two balls in existence instead of just one (But I suppose that's what makes it a paradox).

EXAMPLE 2 ("A Circle in Time")
The 2nd example is just a glance. Either the exit wormhole is "angled" or the timing of the exit is such so that the exit ball barely glance-touches the ball to an extent where the ball is still capable of going in. So like the example above, if you miss the original shot you don't see another ball coming out at all. But if your initial shot was accurate you would see a duplicate of the same ball coming out of left field to help "knock" it in the wormhole pocket. SEEING THE OTHER BALL COME OUT MEANS YOU MADE THE SHOT, but in this example at the end of the shot you would only see one ball instead of 2 remaining. Since the ball's trajectory isn't disrupted, it still enters the original wormhole completing the passage so no "paradox" is created this way.

EXAMPLE 3 ("Back to the Future")
This 3rd example is what you would call... something that makes me "uncomfortable". I don't think the illustration quite fits. Should there be a 3rd wormhole somewhere? Ironically, it's this 3rd illustration where the article makes comparisons to Interstellar!!!! ARghh!!!

===

In short, what I have learned is:

There are "Grandfather Paradoxes" - which existed in "Back to the Future" but not "Interstellar"

There are "Bootstrap Paradoxes" - which COULD have existed in "Interstellar", but the film brilliantly portrays TARS relaying the information to Cooper so HE can communicate with his daughter to save mankind instead of the "4th&5th" dimensional beings communicating with Murphy directly. With the "4th/5th" dimensional beings creating an "avenue" back in time (the wormhole) and allowing Cooper & TARS to successfully discover the answers they succeed in causing the Bootstrap Paradox that would have normally existed! THIS IS THE ARGUMENT THAT TIES IN TO WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO SAY, AND IN THE CASE WITH INTERSTELLAR I DO FEEL SATISFACTORY *THIS* PARADOX IS RESOLVED (so there really isn't one).

There are "Predestination Paradoxes" - which unfortunately DOES exist in "Interstellar". It involves (specifically) Cooper giving himself the coordinates to NASA so that he is "predestined" to go. I don't think the movie succeeded at resolving THIS PARTICULAR paradox. Or... perhaps it did and I just don't understand it. If the latter is the case, I'm hoping you or someone could "dumb it down" for me so I can wrap my head around this.

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi again EyeInSky;

"I found an *EXCELLENT* physics type read, and it even discusses the movie Interstellar quite a bit. I'm going to share a link with you now:"

I read it.
The first part is an expansion of what I referenced previously; that Thorne's time travel idea involves going through wormholes.
And Thorne's time travel concepts follow Novikov's self-consistency principle,
- I think it is helpful though for the stack exchange article to give examples of how time travel through a wormhole could work and be consistent (using billiard balls).
- As I quoted before;

Recent calculations by Thorne indicate that simple masses passing through traversable wormholes could never engender paradoxes – there are no initial conditions that lead to paradox once time travel is introduced.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip_Thorne#Wormholes_and_time_travel

This agrees with the article you linked to from stack exchange (which references the Grandfather Paradox);

In a universe that respects the Novikov self-consistency principle it is still possible for time travelers to affect the past, perhaps even playing a decisive role in causing certain elements of their own past, even though it's impossible for them to change anything (so they can't eradicate themselves from having existed, no matter what they do).

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/78749/bootstrap-paradox-in-interstellar/78787#78787

The stack exchange article then discusses a predestination paradox, which is what we have been exploring; how could future Cooper tell himself in the past to go to NASA which then allowed Cooper to get to the tesseract where he sent the message to himself.
The stack exchange article states

one might at least doubt that such things would be probable even in a universe with time travel obeying the Novikov principle.

Obviously. That doubt is what we have been talking about.

It's possible such an analysis might show that bootstrap paradoxes involving meaningful information with no origin are possible but very improbable,

Again this fits with what we have been writing about though the Bootstrap paradox problem seems to be dismissed.
In the end the writer of the stack exchange article dabbles at the edges of the issue of Cooper giving himself the information but can't answer it.

As I posted before Dr. Carroll, Thorne's colleague discusses the black hole/tesseract. And for him it's mostly not based on science.
It's speculative fiction.
https://www.yahoo.com/movies/interstellar-ending-explained-102298382597.html

As for the stack exchange article's objection to the multiverse idea (which I wrote about), imo the writer makes no solid arguments against it.
This is more about the writer not liking this scenario imo which is fine. But again, at that point the article is more like a movie review than a statement about science.

"There are "Grandfather Paradoxes" - which existed in "Back to the Future" but not "Interstellar"

Correct. As I've written before, Thorne's view of time travel does not allow for paradoxes.

"There are "Bootstrap Paradoxes" - which COULD have existed in "Interstellar" but the film brilliantly portrays TARS relaying the information to Cooper ...

THIS IS THE ARGUMENT THAT TIES IN TO WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO SAY, AND IN THE CASE WITH INTERSTELLAR I DO FEEL SATISFACTORY *THIS* PARADOX IS RESOLVED (so there really isn't one)"

There isn't a bootstrap paradox in the film maker explanation of the film.
I'm glad you are feeling better about the 'official' explanations in the movie.

"There are "Predestination Paradoxes" - which unfortunately DOES exist in "Interstellar". It involves (specifically) Cooper giving himself the coordinates to NASA so that he is "predestined" to go. I don't think the movie succeeded at resolving THIS PARTICULAR paradox. Or... perhaps it did and I just don't understand it. If the latter is the case, I'm hoping you or someone could "dumb it down" for me so I can wrap my head around this."

And I'm not trying to add to your discomfort..
But you are right, there is still a predestination paradox (as mentioned in the stack exchange article) in "Interstellar".
What is that paradox?

The term predestination paradox is used in the Star Trek franchise to mean "a time loop in which a time traveler who has gone into the past causes an event that ultimately causes the original future version of the person to go back into the past."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_loop#Terminology_in_physics.2C_philosophy.2C_and_fiction

Future Cooper gives himself the information in the past which allows him to eventually get somewhere where he is able to give himself that information.
- Now, the film asks us to accept this. That is the 'official' interpretation of the film makers.
And I can accept it though I also realize that it has previously been uncomfortable for you.
I also realize this paradox for what it is; it is FICTION.
- I also wrote a multiverse scenario which gets rid of the paradoxes and time loops. Though you are right, this is not the explanation given by the film makers.

So, we are left with the official view of "Interstellar"
And again I go back to Dr. Carroll, Thorne's colleague who summed up the black hole/tesseract;

I think that it was mostly magic.

Why is there discomfort with that?

As I mentioned before, in terms of the kind of science fiction presented in "Interstellar", there is a big style shift comparing the beginning and the end.
It begins with hard SF.
And at the end it is at a magical Star Trek level.
- That to me leads to the struggle of mentally trying to fit a fairly realistic story with a Star Trek level story.

Compare this to a movie you may have seen; Star Trek: The Motion Picture.
In that film Spock travels into a futuristic machine and taps into its thinking. (Similar to Cooper in the tesseract.)
It's got lots of special effects. It's magical. It's emotional.
And it's clearly not hard science fiction. (Like "Interstellar" at that point.)
- But with the Star Trek film, the movie begins with speculative SF. There are Klingons being attacked by a giant machine (as large as a moon). There is the Star Trek transporter,
The viewer starts with magical things and can adjust their mind to it since that is the science fiction level of the entire movie.

"Interstellar" requires a hard mental shift from realism to magical. And that can be more difficult for some of the audience.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hi BB,

Thanks (as always) for your replies. They have been very good reads, and I also enjoyed reading the links you gave. With Interstellar, I actually DON'T think "they" (the 4th/5th dimensional" evolved beings) are any kind of paradox (Bootstrap or otherwise). On my first posting, I commented that they were kind of a paradox but here's the thing...

Based on what the movie shows it is strongly implied that "Plan B" would *STILL* successfully happen even if Cooper didn't make that journey. Perhaps Brand and a different team of scientists lands on one of the suitable planets, or perhaps they just develop human embryos on a space station, etc. So the movie does (indirectly) suggest that "Plan B" was likely going to happen with or without Cooper's involvement. Therefore, one can assume the "4th/5th" dimensional beings that created the wormhole in the first place COULD have evolved from a different successful "Plan B" trip.

The reason for the movie is that (for whatever reason), "they" *REALLY* wanted to see "Plan A" happen! For some reason they can't (or know they shouldn't) communicate with humans directly. This is brilliant because that's what made for an interesting story (and a revelation towards the end), but also done in this specific way it avoids the informational Bootstrap paradox. "They" didn't give ANY information! "They" just allowed an avenue to where Cooper can retrieve the information from TARS. And he relays the information to Murphy.

The love aspect is also done VERY well within this movie IMO. It isn't corny or cheesy (like some people have stated). Even if these evolved beings COULD communicate (but let's assume they are limited to time & gravity), they have no idea exactly HOW to do it. The "love" part comes in because somehow... someway... Cooper knows the watch (compared to ALL of the other gifts he has given her over the years), but it's the WATCH he knows has the most sentimental value with her. He knows this because of the strong love they both share toward each other. This personal aspect is something that an outsider would not be privy to. So Cooper (because of the love his daughter and him shared) instinctively knew the watch was the best item to use gravity to alter it's function.

One other question I sometimes hear is "Why in Murphy's Room behind the bookcase?" I think the reason for behind the bookcase is because "they" probably didn't want Cooper to have direct "ghostly" interactions with himself or Murphy. Perhaps such apparitions (like the one Brand had while transversing the wormhole) would scare the living daylights out of Murph. Or, perhaps it could create some other type of paradox. But "they" apparently had the wisdom to make the tesseract and travel of the bulk to this area BEHIND the bookcase BECAUSE Cooper and Murph can only be seen and not touched or interfered with. And why Murphy's room? Obviously because "they" knew SHE was the best key to solve gravity's problems. And why? Because it was Cooper who went to the black hole and nobody else. It's because of Cooper's journey that made Murphy (aside from her mathematical intelligence) to be the best candidate to receive that message.

But back to the Plan B beings... It is because it was inferred they would have always existed that I have no problems with an "alternate" version of the Plan B embryo's. For me to feel "comfortable", I still need a reason or way for the original first Cooper to visit the NASA site. Otherwise, I must accept that I'm merely watching one of the "loops" of Cooper and must accept I will never exactly know what happened to the original first Cooper.

I was hoping that I may have missed something. I mean... it wasn't like the Plan B embryos were exactly "spelled out" for me (that they would have always existed by alternate means). Yet, I have no doubt it would. So why do I have such doubt with Cooper? I guess because it seemed like it was only because of the coordinates they stumbled upon the secret site. Also, since Cooper is the LEAD CHARACTER the audience is more closely holding on to all the build up of details (true or false) around him during the film.

I'll still keep scavenging around to see if there might be an answer once and for all that's satisfying. I imagine there could be another paradox or two presented in Interstellar, and if they are there it doesn't seem to bother me as the Cooper/NASA one.

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

HI again EyeInSky;

"For me to feel "comfortable", I still need a reason or way for the original first Cooper to visit the NASA site. Otherwise, I must accept that I'm merely watching one of the "loops" of Cooper and must accept I will never exactly know what happened to the original first Cooper."

I'll start here because this imo is the core of our discussion.
- I'll give my view.
Not trying to be negative but I think you are trying to make "Interstellar" something which it isn't.
Imo you are trying to fit all of the movie into the hard science fiction box where everything is scientifically accurate to you so you will be comfortable.
- Here is some advice which you can ignore if you like.
"Interstellar" is not hard science fiction. It is often magical science fiction.
Imo it is more like Star Trek The Motion Picture. Both movies are often very speculative fiction.

"So why do I have such doubt with Cooper?"
"I'll still keep scavenging around to see if there might be an answer once and for all that's satisfying."

Imo? You've found something that does not feel right.
I assume you've seen "The Matrix". Neo begins to feel uncomfortable about the artificial world that was created for humans by the machines. He notices the flaws and questions the accuracy of what is going on.
- You are noticing that with Cooper, the movie does not follow hard science fiction and you are questioning that part of the fictional world created by Nolan.
- But as I've written before, "Interstellar" is not a hard science fiction movie. Many times it does not try to be scientifically accurate.
It is a fiction entertainment.
- Cooper does what he does in the tesseract because his emotional scenes, in trying to communicate with Murph, entertain the audience.
Nolan isn't thinking much about science at that moment.

"they" probably didn't want Cooper to have direct "ghostly" interactions with himself or Murphy."

That's just an artifact of the movie. It's shown in a way so that it is easier for the audience to see what is happening.
Murph could not actually see Cooper if there was no bookcase. All that can be transmitted back in time is gravity. And gravity alone would not transmit a clear image of him.

I was wondering how you got the ghost idea. Hopefully I've cleared that up.
Imo at least. ;-)

"But back to the Plan B beings... It is because it was inferred they would have always existed that I have no problems with an "alternate" version of the Plan B embryo's.'

Not to be argumentative.
My view is;
From the official explanation of the movie, there are no Plan B future humans.
What we see in the film always happened. Plan A always worked.
It goes back to the idea that time does not apply to the super advanced future humans.

"I actually DON'T think "they" (the 4th/5th dimensional" evolved beings) are any kind of paradox..."
"Therefore, one can assume the "4th/5th" dimensional beings that created the wormhole in the first place COULD have evolved from a different successful "Plan B" trip."

OK. Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, just sharing.
Here is my view;
- The official explanation of the film is that for the super advanced future humans, linear time does not apply to them. Time happens in one big blob as I've mentioned previously.
- Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains the hypothetical concept.

Tyson argues that in a hypothetical fifth dimension time could function in an non-linear manner which would essentially make questions of time paradoxes irrelevant (because all of time is happening at once).

http://www.avclub.com/article/neil-degrasse-tyson-okay-ending-interstellar-212143

But what we have been discussing is linear time regarding Cooper and the super advanced future humans.
And we were only allowing for one timeline and with no possibilities of a grandfather paradox.
- With both Cooper and the super advanced future humans, someone from the future had to do something in the past in order for either the super advanced future humans to exist or for Cooper to get to NASA in one timeline.

The stack exchange fellow did another essay explaining the view of the possibility of time travel causing the time traveler to exist (using computer chess programming).
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/78755/how-does-the-time-loop-in-predestination-get-initialized/78864#78864

My take away from this is that with an infinite number of chances, it's possible for a chess program to make a move in the past which would not violate the rules of chess.
- But that would be extremely improbable. Same with the super advanced future humans meddling in the past which caused those future humans to exist.
Again, if we are looking at linear time, meddling in the past could be done with only one timeline and where grandfather paradoxes are impossible. But it is very improbable.

- Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Dr. Carroll, Thorne's colleague, know the math.
For Tyson to say linear time doesn't matter and for Dr. Carroll to say "I think that it was mostly magic." means to me that the existence of the future advanced beings is still a problem if we think in conventional terms.

But as I've written many times, the existence of the wormhole and black hole/tesseract in "Interstellar" is speculative fiction.
And I accept it on those terms.
- If we disagree? That's fine. We can just agree to disagree.

"The reason for the movie is that (for whatever reason), "they" *REALLY* wanted to see "Plan A" happen! For some reason they can't (or know they shouldn't) communicate with humans directly."

One more time, I don't want to be argumentative but I've got a different view.
My view is that sending any kind of information through time is a form of communication;
- Ancient pyramids on earth give information to our civilization.
If space aliens had built a pyramid on the Moon or Mars, that would be giving us information.
- And again my view is that information = communication.

In the film the sending of the tail end of an artificial wormhole into a solar system is giving the people on earth information from beings who live off of earth. That is also a form of communication.
- It is evidence of advanced intelligence that exists outside of earth.
If such an event happened in our world, it would be front page news everywhere.

Also, an artificial wormhole taking an astronaut into a special black hole which has a special area where information can be transmitted through time is also giving someone from earth information from a civilization that exists outside of earth. And that is a form of communication.

Again, I'm not trying to be negative here. That's just my view.
- And I'm again most willing to agree to disagree. ;-)

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

HI again BB,

I'll start here because this imo is the core of our discussion.
- I'll give my view.
Not trying to be negative but I think you are trying to make "Interstellar" something which it isn't.
Imo you are trying to fit all of the movie into the hard science fiction box where everything is scientifically accurate to you so you will be comfortable.
- Here is some advice which you can ignore if you like.
"Interstellar" is not hard science fiction. It is often magical science fiction.
Imo it is more like Star Trek The Motion Picture. Both movies are often very speculative fiction.
... YES, the NASA coordinate paradox is definitely the core of my biggest problem. I had some other nibbling questions that I doubted in the movie (like the likelihood of a drone flying around on its own for decades on solar power) but the other issues were very minor compared to this BIG one. I would actually compare Interstellar closer to a movie like Kubrick's 2001. Both movies are grounded in real science (i.e., the weightless physics of space, the lack of sound in a vacuum, the naturalistic realism of the technology presented, etc. But, at the very end of 2001 is this bizarre "out there" space monolith which was like a near wormhole journey for David Bowman. There he "sees himself" eating. Aging. On his deathbed. Then he is reborn as a "star child". Abstract, artistic, bizarre, and totally WTF in the best possible way IMO. Interstellar throughout is grounded in true science and physics. The "speculative" science fiction part comes with the visuals we see as they travel through the wormhole, as well as the close up visuals of Gargantua and the traveling inside the event horizon while cooper approaches the singularity. Since no man has ever done such a feat in true life, these are ALL speculative (and extremely fascinating). The "fantasy" sci-fi (which I am TOTALLY GOOD WITH) is how Cooper becomes a 4th/5th dimensional being and is able to navigate the tesseract. Even the bond with his daughter and figuring out a way to give her the long-winded morse code information to gravity's equation. There is a lot about Interstellar that is "total movie magic" as the doctor states but is still grounded in real science.

Imo? You've found something that does not feel right.
I assume you've seen "The Matrix". Neo begins to feel uncomfortable about the artificial world that was created for humans by the machines. He notices the flaws and questions the accuracy of what is going on.
- You are noticing that with Cooper, the movie does not follow hard science fiction and you are questioning that part of the fictional world created by Nolan.
- But as I've written before, "Interstellar" is not a hard science fiction movie. Many times it does not try to be scientifically accurate.
It is a fiction entertainment.
- Cooper does what he does in the tesseract because his emotional scenes, in trying to communicate with Murph, entertain the audience.
Nolan isn't thinking much about science at that moment.
... And that's totally okay. He's giving us a "WTF-wow" moment and an emotional moment combined. But during this time he is also neatly tying up (or trying to) the paradoxes in a nice "bow". He resolves the Bootstrap paradox by having TARS relay the information (the source doesn't come from the "bulk beings" nor Cooper himself). But the bottom line is the information is STILL delivered (indirectly) on the same path, so it isn't really that different than the "Bulk Beings" giving the information directly. Yet... for some strange reason I feel the NASA coordinate paradox answer is THERE!! Somewhere hidden that I couldn't discover yet. That's why I'm so bothered. It doesn't feel right, yet I have a strong suspicion the answer exists but is blind to me at this moment.

"they" probably didn't want Cooper to have direct "ghostly" interactions with himself or Murphy."
That's just an artifact of the movie. It's shown in a way so that it is easier for the audience to see what is happening.
Murph could not actually see Cooper if there was no bookcase. All that can be transmitted back in time is gravity. And gravity alone would not transmit a clear image of him. I was wondering how you got the ghost idea. Hopefully I've cleared that up.
... The "artifact" of the gravitational anomaly is not only visible to the audience but characters too (like Brand in the wormhole). Speaking of which... WHY DO YOU THINK NOLAN HAD THAT SCENE IN THERE? His 4th/5th dimensional self touching Brand's hand inside the wormhole? I still suspect the reason for having the bulk/tesseract BEHIND the bookcase is so that Cooper couldn't be tempted to cause gravitational anomalies causing "ghostly apparitions" to form. To you and me, it's just a gravitational anomaly. To 8-9 year old Murphy it could be a scary ghost. Being trapped behind the bookcase means a book can accidentally get knocked out, or a watch malfunctions. Little Murphy doesn't get spooked, and she's willing to stick around and look for answers. I use the ghost analogy for two reasons:

1) Mann tells Cooper (right after he tries to kill him), that he's sorry for resorting to this and that the "first thing he will see when he's about to die is his children". This leads the audience to think that his journey into the black hole will surely be a fatal one. Upon first viewing, the whole "tesseract" thing almost seemed like a weird distorted heaven (or purgatory). And while stuck inside, he*sees* his daughter (i guess the more important child of the two - which kinda sucks).

2) I'm still under the belief that Cooper survives the journey (thanks to the assistance of the "bulk beings". But one can argue he did NOT survive the trip. After the tesseract closed and he was traveling back out of the wormhole it appeared his body was lifeless floating in space.

3) One can argue if ghosts do exist, they likely can travel back and forth in time. Maybe a ghost exists in the 4th/5th dimension as an "evolved" higher being. I'm not saying I believe in this kind of hocus-pocus, but I do have an interesting story I can share with you on private PM that a friend of mine experienced. It's not a major experience, but an interesting one.

"But back to the Plan B beings... It is because it was inferred they would have always existed that I have no problems with an "alternate" version of the Plan B embryo's.'

Not to be argumentative.
My view is;
From the official explanation of the movie, there are no Plan B future humans.
What we see in the film always happened. Plan A always worked.
It goes back to the idea that time does not apply to the super advanced future humans.
... So hence my initial argument holds strongest. That we are witnessing the LOOP of events, but are not given the original story that happened BEFORE the loop started. I also read the filmmakers came out and said not only the tesseract closed but the wormhole itself also closed along with it! So if that's the case what purpose does Cooper and his new TARS have by flying away in the space ship? There was a line by his daughter Murph... talking to her dad Cooper about Dr. Brand being on Edumund's planet. I re-watched this scene several times, and it's there for a reason. I believe it's to suggest that Cooper is going to fly there - maybe in hopes to rescue her since Plan A happened after all. But I see that as IMPOSSIBLE if the wormhole closed as (I hear) they stated.

But the PARADOXES of the story are answered with the assumption that Plan B could have always occurred, which means the "bulk beings" still create the wormhole, which ends up encouraging mankind (Cooper specifically) to make the journey to get gravity's answers to the life, universe, and everything. And speaking of the "time blob" you speak of, I also found it amazing how that drone was malfunctioning near the farm house! By the end of the movie we discover even THAT small little detail... it was malfunctioning because of Cooper and the Tesseract being behind Murphy's bedroom, and these gravitational anomalies THERE were causing the strange side effect of the drone malfunctioning while near the area. Amazing detail, isn't it?

"I actually DON'T think "they" (the 4th/5th dimensional" evolved beings) are any kind of paradox..."
"Therefore, one can assume the "4th/5th" dimensional beings that created the wormhole in the first place COULD have evolved from a different successful "Plan B" trip."

OK. Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, just sharing.
Here is my view;
- The official explanation of the film is that for the super advanced future humans, linear time does not apply to them. Time happens in one big blob as I've mentioned previously.
- Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains the hypothetical concept.
Tyson argues that in a hypothetical fifth dimension time could function in an non-linear manner which would essentially make questions of time paradoxes irrelevant (because all of time is happening at once).
http://www.avclub.com/article/neil-degrasse-tyson-okay-ending-interstellar-212143
... Linear time doesn't apply to the "bulk beings" but it DOES apply to humans (like Murph and Cooper). While it doesn't apply to Cooper inside the tesseract it STILL applies to the HUMAN form of Cooper in the bedroom - before being given the NASA coordinates. I wish it was the "bulk beings" that directly created the NASA coordinate piles and not Cooper. That would totally resolve my issue and I would be at peace with it. But it was COOPER giving the coordinates to himself. So again, this is story of the movie wasn't quite what I was hoping it would be. Instead, the story is giving the audience the ENDLESS LOOP of what was set in motion (and we are deprived of a critical element before this loop happened). I do know that Neil DeGrasse Tyson is "THE MAN" of physics. He also chimed in on Gravity - which says a lot (you don't see him talking about The Avengers or Avatar). But when a movie comes out that deals with true science it obviously piques his interest. But I still stand that time "happens all at once" for the BULK BEINGS and those inside the tesseract (exclusively older Cooper). It doesn't function that way for murphy or younger Cooper.

But what we have been discussing is linear time regarding Cooper and the super advanced future humans.
And we were only allowing for one timeline and with no possibilities of a grandfather paradox.
- With both Cooper and the super advanced future humans, someone from the future had to do something in the past in order for either the super advanced future humans to exist or for Cooper to get to NASA in one timeline.

The stack exchange fellow did another essay explaining the view of the possibility of time travel causing the time traveler to exist (using computer chess programming).
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/78755/how-does-the-time-loop-in-predestination-get-initialized/78864#78864
... I will surely take a look at this link tonight.

My take away from this is that with an infinite number of chances, it's possible for a chess program to make a move in the past which would not violate the rules of chess.
- But that would be extremely improbable. Same with the super advanced future humans meddling in the past which caused those future humans to exist.
Again, if we are looking at linear time, meddling in the past could be done with only one timeline and where grandfather paradoxes are impossible. But it is very improbable.
... You and The stack exchange both mentioned this "consistency theory" (I forget the exact term), but it implies how things cannot be affected. Does this mean (exclusively) that things can't be taken away - like the Grandfather paradox with a time traveler killing his biological parents or grandparents before he/she was born? Or does it also mean no TWO of the same people can exist in the same timeline? I've imagined if time travel was even possible, it could only happen in 2 ways: 1) Your brain can "mentally" go back (or forth) in time. Your brain causes you to return to a specific point in time. But unfortunately your brain can't remember the future - so any plans of checking out the winning lottery numbers and going back in time to buy a ticket wouldn't work because you would have no future knowledge of it. You just "wake up" in that time period and get to experience things again as they are seemingly new. Likewise, your brain could go forward in time and you would be much older and also have much more knowledge - but still exist in the same body. 2) The other time travel method would require some device (like H.G. Wells' Time Machine). You enter this machine and as you go back in time what has occurred starts going in reverse while your body "splits" into 2 clones. One of your past self and the other of your new self (your entire wardrobe also "clones" along with). Let's say you go back an hour in time and watch yourself (or even interact with yourself). Then you go back in time again (cloning yourself and your wardrobe) and you see yourself interacting with yourself, etc. etc. etc. So does this consistency theory mean nothing can be cloned as well as destroyed?

- Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Dr. Carroll, Thorne's colleague, know the math.
For Tyson to say linear time doesn't matter and for Dr. Carroll to say "I think that it was mostly magic." means to me that the existence of the future advanced beings is still a problem if we think in conventional terms.

But as I've written many times, the existence of the wormhole and black hole/tesseract in "Interstellar" is speculative fiction.
And I accept it on those terms.
- If we disagree? That's fine. We can just agree to disagree.
... In Back to the Future, the Grandfather Paradox was at least brought up and haphazardly resolved with some psuedo "ripple effect" that suggests it takes a period of time for the past to catch up with itself (whatever, but at least it was addressed). Because Interstellar is so grounded in science, and because of the SPECIFIC SCENES THAT WERE SHOWN (as well as the many countless hours of boardroom meetings with Chris, John, and Kipp), I've gotta imagine that it's quite possible the predestination NASA paradox is resolved somehow. Either I just don't see it, or Chris Nolan is only showing his audience the LOOP of these events and not allowing us to see the ORIGINAL story that happened.

"The reason for the movie is that (for whatever reason), "they" *REALLY* wanted to see "Plan A" happen! For some reason they can't (or know they shouldn't) communicate with humans directly."

One more time, I don't want to be argumentative but I've got a different view.
My view is that sending any kind of information through time is a form of communication;
- Ancient pyramids on earth give information to our civilization.
If space aliens had built a pyramid on the Moon or Mars, that would be giving us information.
- And again my view is that information = communication.

In the film the sending of the tail end of an artificial wormhole into a solar system is giving the people on earth information from beings who live off of earth. That is also a form of communication.
- It is evidence of advanced intelligence that exists outside of earth.
If such an event happened in our world, it would be front page news everywhere.
... I can agree that ANY form of information is communication. But I suppose if done "right" it's easier for me to overlook.

Also, an artificial wormhole taking an astronaut into a special black hole which has a special area where information can be transmitted through time is also giving someone from earth information from a civilization that exists outside of earth. And that is a form of communication.

Again, I'm not trying to be negative here. That's just my view.
- And I'm again most willing to agree to disagree. ;-)
... Given there are SEVERAL different types of paradoxes, the information aspect is only ONE type of paradox. But obviously there are others and it's gotta be tricky to be able to succeed in solving them all. By the way... you really should check out that Ethan Hawk movie Predestination! I'm definitely a LOT more "uncomfortable" with THAT movie than Interstellar (lol). But Interstellar "haunts" me more because it's a more serious Grade-A movie and also one that has a lot more true science to it.

EyeInSky

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi again EyeInSky;
I think a place I can begin at this point is to set out what I think are the limits of time travel according to science today as I understand it. And relate that to science fiction.

** First in science fiction what is no longer going to be plausible because of current science?
1. "Back to the Future" and stories similar to it or based on it.
The idea that time travel only happens in one timeline and that time travel can create paradoxes which instantly change the entire timeline.

"... In Back to the Future, the Grandfather Paradox was at least brought up and haphazardly resolved with some psuedo "ripple effect" that suggests it takes a period of time for the past to catch up with itself (whatever, but at least it was addressed)."

"Back to the Future" allows for multiple Grandfather Paradoxes in a single timeline traveling into the past. The film addresses it but that explanation is no longer plausible because of current science.
- Thorne has shown that time travel into the past in a single timeline cannot create paradoxes. This is now widely known.
"Back to the Future" style time travel will not be done in new serious science fiction movies mainly because of Thorne and how widespread his ideas are now.

This also applies to;

"2) The other time travel method would require some device (like H.G. Wells' Time Machine)."

Wells' novel is the origin of many ideas in "Back to the Future. This kind of time travel if done in the past in a single timeline is no longer plausible in new science fiction because of Thorne.

2. Paradoxes cannot happen in a single timeline with Thorne's time travel.

"... You and The stack exchange both mentioned this "consistency theory" (I forget the exact term), but it implies how things cannot be affected."

That's right according to Thorne time travel in a single timeline.

"Does this mean (exclusively) that things can't be taken away - like the Grandfather paradox with a time traveler killing his biological parents or grandparents before he/she was born? Or does it also mean no TWO of the same people can exist in the same timeline?'

Nothing like either of those examples can happen in a single timeline according to Thorne.

"I've imagined if time travel was even possible, it could only happen in 2 ways: 1) Your brain can "mentally" go back (or forth) in time. Your brain causes you to return to a specific point in time. But unfortunately your brain can't remember the future - so any plans of checking out the winning lottery numbers and going back in time to buy a ticket wouldn't work because you would have no future knowledge of it. You just "wake up" in that time period and get to experience things again as they are seemingly new."

To be consistent with Thorne, the time traveler could mentally see the past but no one in the past could see the time traveler.
The time traveler basically can only view the past but cannot affect anything. Pretty much no communication, almost no changes can be made.
- That is very close to what happens in "Interstellar".
The time traveler in the tesseract or the wormhole can see people in the past. But the people in the past cannot see the time traveler.
This way the chance of a paradox is kept to an absolute minimum because what the time traveler in "Interstellar" can do is very limited; just move things with gravity / create things made out of gravity waves.

3. Now we come to multiple timelines according to the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics.
If there are two timelines, then each have to be in a separate reality/universe according to this interpretation.
The Star Trek film released in 2009 used this idea.
- Importantly "Interstellar" according to the official explanation does not use the multiple timeline idea.

"But the PARADOXES of the story are answered with the assumption that Plan B could have always occurred, which means the "bulk beings" still create the wormhole, which ends up encouraging mankind (Cooper specifically) to make the journey to get gravity's answers to the life, universe, and everything."

Actually having the advanced future humans created by Plan B and then having Plan A be created later in one timeline causes a massive number of paradoxes.
- With Plan B, almost all the humans are dead.
- With Plan A, almost all the humans live.
If millions of people live with Plan A, in a new version of the timeline, that's millions of people who are alive and that's millions of changes to the timeline and millions of paradoxes.
- It cannot happen in a single timeline according to Thorne.
- It could happen in a multiple timeline according to the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics. But "Interstellar" does not use that.

* Second, then comes my conclusion;
The resolution of the paradoxes in the film are explained by Neil deGrasse Tyson;

Tyson argues that in a hypothetical fifth dimension time could function in an non-linear manner which would essentially make questions of time paradoxes irrelevant (because all of time is happening at once).

http://www.avclub.com/article/neil-degrasse-tyson-okay-ending-interstellar-212143

"Because Interstellar is so grounded in science, and because of the SPECIFIC SCENES THAT WERE SHOWN (as well as the many countless hours of boardroom meetings with Chris, John, and Kipp), I've gotta imagine that it's quite possible the predestination NASA paradox is resolved somehow."

All the paradoxes are resolved, according to the official view, by time happening in one instant blob.
There is no first Cooper. Cooper and the advanced future human happen instantly at the same time.

Can't accept that? Then there is always Dr. Carroll, Thorne's colleague, who said;

I think that it was mostly magic.

** Other topics;

"But one can argue he did NOT survive the trip. After the tesseract closed and he was traveling back out of the wormhole"

Glad you mentioned this. Just to make sure you know, the tesseract was located in the black hole. Later Cooper does go to the wormhole but I wanted to clarify the difference.

Upon a slingshot maneuver to allow CASE and Amelia Brand to arrive on Edmunds, Cooper and TARS detached themselves from the Endurance and fell into the black hole Gargantua. They were both seemingly rescued by the bulk beings and brought into their three dimensional representation of five dimensional space. The Tesseract allowed Cooper to communicate with Murphy Cooper...

http://interstellarfilm.wikia.com/wiki/Tesseract

"WHY DO YOU THINK NOLAN HAD THAT SCENE IN THERE? His 4th/5th dimensional self touching Brand's hand inside the wormhole? I still suspect the reason for having the bulk/tesseract BEHIND the bookcase is so that Cooper couldn't be tempted to cause gravitational anomalies causing "ghostly apparitions" to form."

To be consistent with Thorne's ideas, what the time traveler can see (in the tesseract or the wormhole) is not = to what people in the past can see.
It can't be. The people in the past have to get almost zero information from the future to prevent paradoxes.
- Murph saw some dust moving on the floor, nothing more.

- As for Brand, she felt a touch, nothing more.

From Kip Thorne's book "The Science of Interstellar";

In Interstellar, with the quantum data safely in Murph’s hands, Cooper’s mission is finished. The tesseract, carrying him through the bulk, begins to close. As it is closing, he sees the wormhole. And within the wormhole, he sees the Endurance on its maiden voyage to Gargantua. As he sweeps past the Endurance, he reaches out and gravitationally touches Brand across the fifth dimension. She thinks she has been touched by a bulk being. She has... by a being riding through the bulk in a rapidly closing tesseract. By an exhausted, older Cooper.

https://www.quora.com/How-does-Cooper-manage-to-give-Amelia-a-handshake-after-he-is-thrown-out-of-the-tesseract

"One can argue if ghosts do exist, they likely can travel back and forth in time."

And it's fine if that is your interpretation.
But a ghost story is outside of what I'm talking about.

"I would actually compare Interstellar closer to a movie like Kubrick's 2001. Both movies are grounded in real science (i.e., the weightless physics of space, the lack of sound in a vacuum, the naturalistic realism of the technology presented, etc. But, at the very end of 2001 is this bizarre "out there" space monolith which was like a near wormhole journey for David Bowman. There he "sees himself" eating. Aging. On his deathbed. Then he is reborn as a "star child". Abstract, artistic, bizarre, and totally WTF"

This is moving to personal taste mixed in with a discussion of hard science fiction and magical science fiction.
If you don't mind I'll share why I think that "Interstellar" is closer to more magical "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" compared with "2001 A Space Odyssey".
- If you don't like my view, just ignore it. It won't hurt my feelings. ;-)

* Both "Interstellar" and "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" were influenced by "2001". That's well-known. So, all three movies have some stylistic similarities.
My reason for separating "2001" from the other two movies is this.

"2001" is consistent hard science fiction almost all the way through. "Interstellar" and "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" have several inconsistencies which serve the story and magical events by the main characters which happen throughout.

The tech in "2001" is consistent and it proceeds in a logical way.

1. I'll start with these givens in "Interstellar";
- A shuttle which can escape a planet's/black hole's gravity like in Star Trek.
- Also it's a given that this society can put all of earth's population in giant structures (Cooper's Station) which can produce enough food, energy, heat, water in a place which has no blight.

2. Considering all that tech. They could deal with the blight by upgrading housing on earth.
- Put all humans in giant structures which have the benefits of Cooper's Station on earth.
- Take everyone out of their leaky farm houses or put the houses together and cover them in futuristic structures which control the blight.
- Result; there is no need to immediately leave earth.

* "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" also has these kinds of inconsistencies.
- Spock is on Vulcan and somehow can communicate with the V'Ger machine which is hundreds of light-years away. Since when has he had that kind of mental telepathy at that distance previously with a machine? Never.
- Transporters usually work flawlessly or can malfunction due to special circumstances. In this movie while orbiting earth in perfect conditions, the Enterprise transporter has a complete breakdown turning a crew member into mush.
This was the story excuse to ask Spock to come aboard.

* I'm not trying to put down either "Interstellar" or "Star Trek: The Motion Picture".
But "2001" was co-written by Arthur C. Clarke, who is a very good hard science fiction writer.
There are very few mistakes in "2001" compared with the rest of the genre. If we ignore the advanced space aliens (represented by the monoliths) for a moment, what the characters do in "2001" is logical, well thought out and consistent almost every step of the way.
Imo it places "2001" at or near the peak of science fiction films.

Again, you can completely ignore what I just wrote. I won't mind.
Still you mentioned "2001" and now you know my view of that.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] SpiltPersonality 8 years ago

It's right about now one of you have to call the other a crude name.

It's the law of the IMDB. One CANNOT have a meaningful discussion.

Stuff it, I'm reporting you both to the admins...

(jk, I'm not reporting anything).

SpiltPersonality

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[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] criztu 8 years ago

Since the center of every major galaxy has a supermassive black hole I'm still believing the black hole always existed

https://youtu.be/16_GuYobDZ4?t=1m34s

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[–] Ringworm7 8 years ago

I don't see a paradox because I'm not seeing time in the blackhole as linear. the tesseract shows an infinite collection of moments in time, and Cooper finds he can command some of the gravity with the force of the fifth dimension, love. up until that point, there is no linear timeline, no initial Cooper nor final Cooper, just gravity moving with time and space and love. when Cooper exerts the force of love upon one specific moment, that becomes the moment of discovery, for Murphy and Cooper to begin their journey from that moment onwards. that's when time goes back to being linear, as viewed by those inside it.

love the discussion here! I follow Buddhist philosophy, so time not being linear is an easy leap to make.

__________
7even days

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[–] Clarence (7) 7 years ago

All of the events of the movie, and in fact all events in our universe, are 'happening' simultaneously. What changes is where your consciousness is. Consciousness is experiencing moment by moment within the person, as though jumping from picture to picture in a comic book, but the story is written out beforehand. So when Cooper is in Murph's bedroom about to leave, his sentient conscious experience is existing within that moment, but because all of time occurs simultaneously and the linearity is just an illusion, the Cooper that's poking the books onto the floor from the tesseract is not simultaneously conscious with the Cooper in the bedroom. So while time is not linear, it is consciousness that experiences time in a linear fashion. The tesseract kind of represents this, with all the different moments of Murph's bedroom and Cooper jumping about between them.

This is how the paradox is avoided and how it is that the entire story is 'pre-written' as BB-15 says.

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[–] stalingradsniperz 8 years ago

The problem of your logic is the premise of FUTURE COOPER and PAST COOPER, its the same COOPER, this not Back to the Future where you can touch/speak your past or present self.

Time is bent to the point of COOPER be able of see him and start doing what "they" already did at the first place. (deliver the message)

"They" are "us" who built the Tessarac and set Wormhole to be used by selected persons.

The message have been sent years ago to different people who did different things to allow the space travel to the Tessarac and to conect the COOPERS for the next step, that is to solve the gravity question and to leave earth.

The limitations of each individual delayed the process and the final result.

In other words, there was multiple Tessaracs for different purposes to different persons.

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hello there (thx for the response).

I'm not sure if I agree that it is the "same" Cooper. Theoretically... Cooper might have taken a longer time on this journey... aging perhaps another 10-20 years before entering the tesseract. We would clearly see there is a 55-60 year old Cooper behind the bookcase gravitationally handing out NASA's coordinates to 35-40 year old Cooper. No doubt it's the same person (he isn't "split into two"), for he is only able to interact with himself via an apparition while inside the tesseract. It's not like his physical body teleported back in time like Back to the Future. But the wormhole+tesseract concept did allow for a "spiritual" version of himself... completely physical and real INSIDE the tessearct, but gravitational anomaly-invisible (sort of) outside the tesseract.

With this understanding, there IS one Cooper who HAS aged... and has lived through time, yet is inside the tesseract giving information to his younger/past self. It's just that when we watch the movie and live in the moment with younger/past oblivious Cooper it's all happening in the present.

===

Also, I don't recall the movie ever showing or explaining the message being sent ago to various other people. Can you please elaborate on this a bit more?

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[–] silfag 8 years ago

... I mean that the universe in this film will not allow any other outcome. The universe will shape/control events so that Cooper will send information from the future and that information will be interpreted properly so that Cooper goes to NASA and Murph figures out the formula ...

The way you put it, you are stating that the universe behaves teleologically. This is something with which is hard to agree...

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[–] robert-10710 8 years ago

I'm not a theoretical physicist and I think Einstein was wrong w/ relativity, but humans have yet to discover that.
1) I don't think Cooper sent the original coordinates to Murph. That was someone else.
2) I don't think there are 1st, 2nd. 3rd Coopers. There is only 1 Cooper.

In the movie, what's changed is our perception of what time is, at least according to Einstein.

Al said there is no time and there is no space .. there is only 1 thing ... spacetime. For us, it's not difficult to imagine all space existing, but it is difficult to imagine all time existing. If Al was right then all spacetime must exist. For us 4 dimensionalists, time seems to pass in a linear fashion always moving forward. You might say Al claims our perception of time is an optical illusion.

Imagine spacetime being a loaf of bread and this loaf contains all points in space and all moments of time. If you take a slice vertically (like normally cutting bread) you are cutting through all points in space at a particular moment of time. This is how we normally perceive our universe. If you slice the loaf horizontally (not normal), you are cutting though all time at a particular point in space. The black hole thingy that Cooper is in is a horizontal cut at the loaf. Cooper is given the opportunity to look at a particular point in space (Murph's room) over all the moments of time.

I guess the other sciency thing is how do you communicate across moments of time. Apparently morse code and a watch will accomplish that.

Like I said, I think Einstein will eventually be proven wrong. Spacetime doesn't push, the earth sucks. GRAVITY!

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[–] guywithnoemail 8 years ago

I don't know if your question has been answered. I didn't read through the whole thread lol, but I had the same question as you until I saw the movie again and realize that it was the robot (I think it was Tars) who gives the coordinates to Cooper so he could give them to his past self. This, at least for me, fixes that paradox.

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hello guy.

I believe it fixes the "bootstrap paradox" but doesn't resolve the "predestination paradox". The bootstrap paradox is concerned with the SOURCE of information.

My issue is that because humans travel in time in linear fashion, the original Cooper needed to somehow be in the tesseract ORIGINALLY FIRST... for him to give himself the coordinates to NASA which would create a different loop of him going to NASA, then going to wormhole + gargantua + "dying" in the blackhole + arriving inside the tesseract leading to Murphy's bookcase. Once he gives Cooper & Murph the coordinates, he will ALWAYS go to NASA and be "predestined" to go there but still doesn't explain how the very first Cooper arrived behind the bookcase to begin with (because I doubt he finds NASA to begin with).

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[–] guywithnoemail 8 years ago

For the predestination paradox, I think that the tesseract is the movies way of trying to explain a paradox that they intentionally created, if that makes any sense lol. It was a device made for humans to travel in a 5th dimensional way. once Coop went in there, our natural views of time did not apply to him. He was no longer traveling in a linear fashion. Its like a stick figure who lives in a 2D world came out of the paper and into a 3D world. He now has access to a new dimension. Coop can not only rewind the timeline he sees, but also interact with it since he is outside of our linear dimension. I dont think there is a first Cooper. I think all those moments he had with his daughter are existing at that moment inside the tesseract.

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

I do agree with this. But there is a boundary of the tesseract (and that is behind the bookcase). Cooper inside the tesseract can't walk outside from behind the bookcase and Cooper inside the room with Murph can't walk to the tesseract.

The Cooper that completed the journey can freely move back and forth to any time period (located in Murphy's room behind the bookcase). THAT Cooper is able to move around time like he can in the other 3 dimensions (HE isn't "trapped " in the present).

The Cooper with Murphy IS trapped in the present. If he doesn't visit the wormhole, he can't give himself the NASA coordinates. So how does Cooper get to NASA in the first place? It's like asking... which came first, the chicken or the egg?

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[–] Kent_Kainer 8 years ago

It's the egg that hatched the evolved generation. Before the chicken was a chicken it was a dinosaur, which came from eggs too.

I think the tesseract is your answer. It is out of time and can't be considered as part of linear events. You could place it anywhere and nowhere.

There is no first time, there's only one time.

The actual paradox would be: how could mankind evolve without creating a paradox. If there's no multiverse.

---
Lincoln Lee: I lost a partner.
Peter Bishop: I lost a universe!

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[–] TRinzler 8 years ago

Forget about timelines and loops for a second and consider what it means if the bulk beings are able to view time as a separate dimension.

Ignoring for the moment that this presumably means THEY can also see the future (!) aswell as the past...

If these bulk beings can help Cooper manipulate his own past then it means time isn't an illusion and the past "exists" (objectively) in the same way as the present does.

However, in the film only Gravity can actually operate across dimensions and hence "travel back in time". Even the super advanced bulk beings can't simply travel to the Earth from Cooper's time to help save it. The best they can do is create gravitational anomalies to attract the attention of humanity, the biggest of which is the wormhole itself.

It's also important to realise that while Cooper is inside the Tesseract he's also inside the bulk hence Causality doesn't apply. While Cooper is in the bulk he exists "outside of time" which allows him to visit moments in his own past to try and influence events using Gravity.

Consequently, there is nothing special about the loop created when he sends himself the coordinates to NASA. The causal loop this appears to create is the same as that created by his S.T.A.Y. message to Murph, because they are both actions performed outside time while Cooper is in the bulk.

Every and any action the bulk beings take can violate causality because they exist outside time. While Cooper is in the Tesseract this also applies to him...

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

TRinzler...

Thanks for your insightful post. I am in full agreement with how the "bulk beings" operate. I also agree these "bulk beings" can go back and forth in time and not be trapped in the present.

The movie cleverly shows the ONLY aspect that can interact with other tense (past or presumably future) is gravity! This means a being cannot travel in time (forward or back) and put on "the time travel brakes" to become full-fledged human form again to say hello and shake peoples' hands. Nor can they produce sound to verbally give instructions to how to save earth.

So I'm okay with the bulk beings creating the wormhole (its related to gravity). I'm even okay with the idea of the bulk beings creating the black hole itself - although since it's a rotating supermassive black home it isn't necessary for it to be made by the bulk beings (given the planets rotating around Gargantua it was probably already established).

I'm also okay with Cooper being able to use gravity to "communicate" to Murphy and himself! What I am *NOT* okay with is how he was given the NASA coordinates by HIMSELF (instead of the bulk beings). The Cooper in the tesseract is, for all intensive purposes, a "bulk being" himself. But the human Cooper in Murphy's bedroom after the dust storm is a 3D human trapped in the present. They could have shown HUMAN Cooper having a dream or vision to where the NASA location was (and him discovering it that way), or perhaps the "bulk beings" used gravity to form the sand pile coordinates.

But that's not what happened. So while future Cooper CAN potentially give information I don't believe the human Cooper can REQUIRE INFORMATION FROM HIS FUTURE SELF to make the travel in the first place (that leads him to the tesseract). He can give information about gravity to himself or his daughter - because that's apart from his journey that leads to the tesseract.

I'm okay seeing it that way as long as we are all in agreement we are witnessing the continuous loop of Cooper "feeding himself" the coordinates but that is not how he originally went to NASA (or, more importantly, ended up inside the tesseract).

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[–] TRinzler 8 years ago

But that's not what happened. So while future Cooper CAN potentially give information I don't believe the human Cooper can REQUIRE INFORMATION FROM HIS FUTURE SELF to make the travel in the first place

It's not a future Cooper. It's a Cooper outside of time. BIG DIFFERENCE!

What Cooper does inside the Tesseract could happen at ANY time and could influence ANY moment in Murph's bedroom. If THEY had given him access to more than her bedroom he could've influenced other events too.

You're still looking for Causality where there is none.

Also, Cooper sending himself co-ordinates isn't any different from him causing his own Ranger accident or sending Murph a STAY message. They all follow the same rules inside the Tesseract.

As long as you insist there must be an "original timeline" you will always end up with a causal paradox but if time is indeed a traversable dimension then there is no such thing... You can't have a causal paradox without causality!

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

P.S.

What the movie has done was intentionally create a "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" paradox. I wish the movie could have been avoied this trap by giving the audience a different explanation of some sort. One that would have still maintained the clever aspect of the "bulk beings" & tesseract but also not create an impossible paradox.

How amusing I'm totally okay with Cooper surviving the black hole, or touching Brand's hand while both are traveling at super high speeds in opposite directions, and the massive tidal wave, etc (because it's "just a movie") yet so can't get past the creation of the chicken-egg / Cooper-NASA loop :-(.

So I'm still frustrated with no closure. Still reading into the other input BB has given. But I can't be the ONLY person that's bothered by this, am I???

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi again EyeInSky;

"But I can't be the ONLY person that's bothered by this, am I???"

Of course not.
I see two ways to summarize how to deal with your paradox question.

1. Look at the rules of time travel in the film and in current hard science fiction and there is nothing that can work except the official explanation about "Interstellar" time travel.
There is no paradox because everything happens at the same time in one big blob.

That's it. The super Bulk humans can do that; make plan A always work.

2. The second direction you brought up.
It's just a movie.

"How amusing I'm totally okay with Cooper surviving the black hole, or touching Brand's hand while both are traveling at super high speeds in opposite directions, and the massive tidal wave, etc (because it's "just a movie")"

The audience accepts all kinds of things in "Interstellar".
- The farmers live in 1930s level farm houses and a few hundred miles away people live in a NASA facility which is building a Star Trek level space station with clean air and soil with no Blight. And later millions of people get put in giant space stations. As you wrote, it's just a movie.
- Cooper's shuttle first needs huge booster rockets to get off of earth. And then on earth sized planets, it can take off and go into orbit with just its little Star Trek level rockets. Again, it's just a movie.
- The time dilation in "Interstellar" of 1 hour to 7 years is much too large for the situation on Miller's planet as shown in the film. It wasn't Kip Thorne's idea. He was told it had to be that way by Nolan.
It's not hard science fiction. Again, it's just a movie.

* Instead of microscopic focus on these technical details, what some fans of the "Interstellar" have said is;
- Look at the emotional scenes and feel that.
- Recognize the grand themes in the film with its poetry and the dialogue of the characters.
- Accept "Interstellar" as a film experience and don't nit pick it.

* That's what some other people have done who have discussed the paradox question with me.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hi again BB.

Also good movie logical points you made, and these issues are easy for me to look past. GOOD CALL ON THE SPACE STATION WITH CLEAN SOIL AND NO BLIGHT!! LOL. I guess they made their own soil from scratch and planted corn seeds.

Funny you should mention Miller's water planet. For that kind of time dilation it seemed to me that Miller's planet needed to be much closer to the event horizon (maybe almost skimming the surface of it). Something was telling me that extreme amount of time dilation was probably a bit off. But since we don't exactly know for sure (since we have not been physically close enough to a real black hole to TEST things) it's all fair game IMO. I'm not a physicist or mathematician but if the ration was 1 hr : 7 months (instead of 7 years) that would seem more feasible. But for movie-sake it makes for a more suspenseful ride by making every single minute count. To solve this though, all they needed to do is have Miller's orbit be closer to the event horizon of Gargantua. But then... people would doubt the realism of any astronaut wanting to attempt to land there as a suitable planet to support life.

I recently responded to the other poster, but along with the billiard table link I provided a YouTube link that talked about time travel on the History channel (they even talk about the billiard table analogy @ the 6:00-10:45 minute mark).

Back to Interstellar though...

I still really enjoyed the movie - a LOT. The ambition and how the wormhole & black hole was visually shown. The ideas and concepts shown in the film, etc. I'm still bothered by the Cooper giving himself the NASA coordinates. It was an amazing movie moment, but ultimately created an illogical weirdness that doesn't quite jive with me.

While I have no problems with "bulk beings" or Cooper (while in the tesseract) violating the human standard of being trapped in the present tense of time, I still stand my ground in saying it doesn't make sense (even when taking the "time blob" in consideration. The journey through the wormhole involved time. Hanging around the planets of Gargantua involved time (obviously - hence... the time dilation we saw on the space station because they stayed on Miller's planet longer than expected). Even Cooper falling into the singularity of the black hole involved time... up until he was captured inside the tesseract. Watching the journey up until this point was incredible, BTW - including the "falling gas & debris" part, and also including the visual appearance of the tesseract itself!

But if you take my recently posted (today) cue stick analogy... the cue stick FIRST hits the ball into the corner, which at that moment (because the shot was successful) the other ball can be the one to always knock itself in. It still needed to be "kickstarted" by the cue stick. The father-Cooper inside Murphy's bedroom still follows the laws of time and being stuck in the present. As I said earlier, if it was a 3rd party "bulk being" giving him the coordinates I would totally be okay with it. But here's the confusion... I (myself) have admitted that Cooper *IS* a "bulk-being" while inside the tesseract! But the issue I have is informational - bootstrap paradox like.

Ugh. I still can't feel satisfied with this conclusion. I think I hit a wall, BB. Either what we saw poses a logical problem for me, or we are simply watching a "loop" that was previously created and I'm not privy to seeing what "kickstarted" Cooper's journey in the first place.

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi again EyeInSky; I'm going to review the two topics which fix the film for the fans I've spoken to.
- The official explanation gets rid of paradoxes.
- It's just a movie, not a science documentary. It's often supposed to be poetic and emotional and not scientific.

"I still really enjoyed the movie - a LOT."

Yes. And the explanations I've given you have come from my many discussions of "Interstellar" with fans of the movie as well as my going over the official explanations about the science in the film.

1. The official explanation gets rid of paradoxes.

"But if you take my recently posted (today) cue stick analogy... the cue stick FIRST hits the ball into the corner, which at that moment (because the shot was successful) the other ball can be the one to always knock itself in. It still needed to be "kickstarted" by the cue stick.

Not imo.
The Bulk beings (and that includes Cooper while in the tesseract) can make balls appear on the table at any time, in any direction, at any speed in a timeline. No cue stick needed. Nothing needs to be kickstarted (from the POV of the timeline they are affecting). The results of what Bulk beings do (in a timeline) is outside of linear time.
- All that is necessary is that the timeline being affected have no paradoxes.
The universe from the consistency view will not allow for those.
- The movie's timeline is that Plan A always worked.
- Bulk beings are outside of time and they help make Plan A work. And that includes Cooper in the tesseract. When he is there, linear time in the timeline he is affecting does not apply to him.

"The father-Cooper inside Murphy's bedroom still follows the laws of time and being stuck in the present. As I said earlier, if it was a 3rd party "bulk being" giving him the coordinates I would totally be okay with it."

It doesn't matter who gives him the coordinates according to the film's official explanation.
Cooper in the tesseract is outside of time.
He gave himself (while outside of time) the info to get himself to NASA. So, he went to NASA.
Cooper must go to NASA to keep the timeline consistent.
Plan A must always work.

"But here's the confusion... I (myself) have admitted that Cooper *IS* a "bulk-being" while inside the tesseract! But the issue I have is informational - bootstrap paradox like.

Ugh. I still can't feel satisfied with this conclusion. I think I hit a wall, BB. Either what we saw poses a logical problem for me, or we are simply watching a "loop" that was previously created and I'm not privy to seeing what "kickstarted" Cooper's journey in the first place."

There is no paradox according to the official explanation of the film.
- I think a major difference between in how I approach this movie (as well as others I've spoken to) and you is;
A. I start with the timeline that I saw in the film where Plan A works.
With a consistent timeline (with time travel according to Thorne), Plan A must always work.
B. The movie uses the trick of Bulk beings who are outside of time making interventions to get Plan A to work.
So, that becomes part of the timeline.
The dust on the floor is part of the timeline which must happen.

* Cooper is outside of time in the tesseract. He does what he needs to do to keep the timeline consistent where Plan A works.
The result, dust moves, books move, becomes part of the timeline.
And that timeline must happen.

2. It's just a movie, not a science documentary. It's often supposed to be poetic and emotional and not scientific.

"GOOD CALL ON THE SPACE STATION WITH CLEAN SOIL AND NO BLIGHT!! LOL. I guess they made their own soil from scratch and planted corn seeds.

Funny you should mention Miller's water planet. For that kind of time dilation it seemed to me that Miller's planet needed to be much closer to the event horizon"

Yes. But it doesn't matter.
"Interstellar" is not a hard science fiction movie.
- The fans I've spoken to agree; leave the many science inconsistencies in the film alone.
Focus on the emotion and the poetry that we see.
Turn off the rational brain and just enjoy it for the spectacle and epic tale of survival and triumph.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hi BB...

Guess what I did late last night? I watched Interstellar all over again. I was up waaayyyyy past my bed time (lol), but it was worth it. This will be maybe my 4th or 5th time watching it. This time-around, I did notice one small thing I wasn't quite able to pick up on before. I also re-watched the importance of Cooper's crash (shown at the beginning of the movie) with a new set of eyes.

This is what makes deep films (regardless if they are science fiction or ANY other genre) a fun watch to experience over multiple viewings, and even spaced apart over the years. I would surely consider Denis Villeneuve's "Enemy" one of those types of films that reward multiple viewings. But Interstellar is surely no exception! I still find the movie so awe inspiring, and am just as impressed with all the space exploration scenes today as I was when I first saw it. I'm also equally impressed with McConaughey as an actor - the immense pain and grief he feels while apart from his children. I also think the way love was handled throughout the film. I.e., the early scenes with his daughter, as well as the important role it plays to discover the exact device required to successfully transmit the data. Even the scene with female Brand confiding her personal experience with her intuition (and admitted huge emotional bias) of Edmund's planet. Many people had problems with this point of dialogue because she's a scientist, but when you place yourself in one's shoes I honestly don't see anything wrong with it.

Hence... comes the subtle detail I did not quite notice the first few times watching the film. When she is discussing the 3 various planets they could visit near Gargantua, there are actually *TWO* very quick and subtle scenes that were intentionally shot. It's amazing the amount of detail one can pick up on when one plays very close attention... dissecting each scene composed apart from watching the movie as a whole. So first she talks about Miller's planet. She is very calm and collected. Next she talks about Edmund's planet. As she talks about his planet, there is a quick scene when the camera zooms in on Cooper's eyes. This is all going on while the crew members are going in their cryogenic chambers. He is closely focused on something a little odd about her! I kid you not, this subtle scene was completely invisible to me on previous viewings. Immediately after the camera is on Brand. She appears to be "lost in a daze" for a couple seconds and she takes a very slow deep breath! If one was playing poker, this is what players would call a "microscopic tell". She did a great job trying to mask her feelings, but they actually *DID* sneak out on a very small (and near unnoticeable) scale. But Cooper saw it, which is why he asked TARS if there was anything going on between Edmund and Brand. This scene was one of the parts I had uncertainties with, but now I'm able to see it. I still believe the solution to my biggest issue (the predestination loop of NASA's coordinates) are also hidden within the movie as well (if one can look close enough).

The other aspect I closely observed were the details placed in the movie about Cooper's past history with NASA. The dreams about the crash, etc. Along with that was a nice foreshadowing moment when Murphy talked about her thinking the sounds came from her "ghost" again (or something to that extent). The noise he was making during his sleep disrupted Murphy. But that specific line of dialogue coupled with the newly found evidence that STRANGE GRAVITATIONAL ANOMALIES ARE ALSO STARTING TO OCCUR IN THIS PART OF THE STORY really helps tie-in the "one single time blob" aspect to the story. There definitely IS this aspect, but I do think you are misinterpreting (exactly) what the filmmakers and Interstellar experts are referring to (I'll get to that later).

TRinzler also mentioned something interesting, and that is the notion how the bulk beings intentionally caused the accident to put a halt on Cooper's career with NASA! In the middle of the movie when Cooper and Murphy discover NASA, one of the board members talks about the gravitational anomalies that were starting to occur. One of which mentions how one of the early anomalies led to Cooper's crashing of his plane during his test flight. At first, I just thought it meant him crashing was simply a "side effect" to what was going on (in similar fashion to how his farming equipment compasses and the Drone plane malfunctioned). But my current belief is Cooper's survivable crash was completely intentional by the bulk beings... who were tinkering around with gravitational anomalies until they "zero'ed in" on the precise combinations of events that would lead Cooper to the black hole as well as his mental discovery of what he needs to do while near the black hole AND ALL THE WHILE DOING SO ESTABLISH A CLOSE BOND WITH HIS DAUGHTER SO THE COMMUNICATION OF THE GRAVITY EQUATION IS SUCCESSFUL.

I'm hoping we on the same page so far! If so, GREAT :-)

I'm going to continue this response in the next blog below...

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

So what we know is "THEY" are intentionally tinkering with the past (but exclusively using gravity to do so). They forcefully created the gravitational anomaly to make Cooper's plane crash. They couldn't touch or harm it physically, but they did use gravity to cause the flight to fail (and they could reset and keep toying over and over again with the sensitivity to ensure he survives while doing so) - since the "bulk beings" can freely go back and forth in time... starting over... making adjustments, etc. THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THEIR ABILITY TO GRASP (more on this later).

During a later moment on the human-earth timeline, they also proceed to create a wormhole near Saturn. This gravitational anomaly was detected by NASA, which encouraged the space exploration theme to continue. Just like how you commented on Ridley Scott's avoidance to show specific scenes, Christopher Nolan also intentionally left out the *VERY* likely scenario that Brand & colleagues still go on their trip through the wormhole WITHOUT COOPER! He's no longer involved in NASA. He's just a farmer on this timeline, and earth is still dying. But he spends his time raising his kids while the blight continues. Blind to Cooper & Murph, NASA will be going on trips to visit the wormhole and continue the Lazarus missions. Since it was Cooper who discovered Brand's close bond with Edmund, it is likely they would have visited Edmund's planet, and "PLAN B" would still occur! In fact, I personally think this is originally what happened before any bulk being "toying" with the system. I say this again... WITHOUT COOPER AND MURPHY'S INVOLVEMENT PLAN B STILL DOES OCCUR!!!!!!!! This is why human existence continues. They eventually evolve and thrive and many thousands of years later they mutate into the capabilities of freely traveling within the 4th & 5th dimension and become "bulk beings". Below is an incredible video segment with Carl Sagan explaining relativity of 2D vs. 3D, and what a tesseract could theoretically look like (by viewing a model of it's 3D "shadow" and expanding this idea of how we (as humans) can't see 4D or 5D in similar fashion as how the 2D theoretical "life forms" can't see in 3D. It makes perfect logical sense, and is a great short watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM

Taking the whole tesseract and black hole stuff out of the equation (at least temporarily), it's important to visualize there are 3 different HUMAN-EARTH timelines happening - two of which are influenced by the bulk beings "toying" with gravity:

(1) We have the timeline when Cooper's plane crashes. Gravity is being "toyed" with, but no tesseract is involved yet. His career with NASA is over and he spends the rest of his life as a farmer raising his children. Brand successfully lands on Edmund's planet (there is no Cooper to bring up the personal bias or vote against it. Human kind continues to exist and evolve - eventually leading to the 4th/5th dimensional "bulk beings".

(2) We have a timeline when Cooper's plane doesn't crash and his career with NASA continues! This doesn't necessarily mean he goes on the flight to Gargantua, but his ties with NASA would lead to the possibility of him knowing the coordinates to NASA's hidden base. He wouldn't know the coordinates on the above timeline. Gravity is probably only toyed with via the wormhole to Gargantua. No tesseract on this timeline, and no small toying with anomalies with Cooper's plane nor the building of the tesseract at Murphy's bedroom causing gravitational anomalies with his farming equipment and flying drone.

(3) Finally, we have a timeline when Cooper gives himself the coordinates to NASA as well as giving Murphy the answers to gravity's equation. Cooper's plane also crashes (like on timeline #1), but along with that there is a tesseract existing behind Murphy's bedroom that wasn't there before.

So for HUMAN-EARTHLINGS, we have 3 different timeline scenarios. Human earthlings STILL MUST EXSIST AND TRAVEL IN LINEAR TIME! This point is very important not to forget. However, the 4th/5th dimensional "bulk beings" are playing God by creating these miraculous creations and events. They used gravity to mess with Cooper's timeline so that he would be stuck as a farmer. They created the wormhole so that NASA can teleport through it to visit Gargantua.

Now comes the important part...

"THEY" can also move about and can encapsulate people inside a "bulk" that exists only in the 4th & 5th dimension. This would be impossibly confusing to a 3D human being. Knowing this, they intentionally create an artistic 3D kaleidoscope-like tesseract MODEL that anyone can freely roam around in and understand. The "bulk beings" wouldn't need to take such rudimentary measures, of course, but Cooper surely does. Even with the added help of the tesseract he jokingly tells TARS their assistance in creating the tesseract wasn't much help (he's still very confused - lol).

But it's important to remember the bulk beings captured Cooper inside the black hole! They didn't capture him on his farm, nor did they capture him on his plane. The point where they capture him is while he is descending inside the black hole (this is what the movie visually shows the audience). Once Cooper is inside "the bulk", they can transport him to ANY moment in time. Or, better yet, while he is navigating inside the tesseract they built for him he can freely roam around to any moment in time HIMSELF! So the cooper that's inside the tesseract and bulk can freely move around (and use gravity) in "one single big time blob" like the bulk beings. But it's important to note that only cooper & TARS inside the tesseract and bulk exist on the "one single time blob" analogy. THAT is what I believe the filmmakers and Interstellar experts were trying to convey.

It's also important to note they GRABBED HIM FROM SOMEWHERE (such as the black hole). They didn't just manufacture Cooper out of thin air. Theoretically, they could have grabbed him from anywhere... and could still force him inside the tesseract. They could have done this at his farm, or even his failed plane ride. I personally think they did grab him on a different timeline, and placed him inside this tesseract for the sole purpose of giving himself the NASA coordinates (the gravity equation aspect hasn't been finalized by the bulk beings yet). But once he is on that journey to NASA... after leaving his daughter in turmoil and despair... all play a role of him self-sacrificing himself inside gargantua - which had the side effect of Brand landing on her on Edmund's planet (and also after Edmund's death). It is at this moment where the bulk beings capture Cooper inside the black hole and immediately transport him back in time. At this stage, they patiently wait until Cooper figures out he must do TWO things: 1) He MUST give himself the coordinates to NASA so the trip to gargantua is made and gravity is solved. And 2) He MUST figure out a way to use gravity to communicate the gravity solution to Murph! The bulk beings... the tesseract with Cooper... and TARS with "the bulk" all co-exist inside one big time blob. But Murphy's earth-bound bedroom is still linear!

The key to this entire paradox complaint of mine is understanding the gravity equation delivered to Murphy doesn't occur until much later - both in the movie's story as well as the human timeline itself. Murphy is much older (Jessica Chastain's age) when she notices the morse code on the second hand of her watch. But the tesseract, bulk beings, TARS, and bulk-Cooper, etc., is still happening all at once. The best way this is can be solved is assuming Cooper originally goes to NASA (somehow). One possibility is the bulk beings might have already seen the exact method Cooper uses to deliver the NASA coordinates with the dust piles. The reason we also see books falling, the S-T-A-Y message, and also the solitary book out of bulk Cooper's anger & desperation is because these things are now ALSO happening with bulk Cooper inside the tesseract!

In short...

There *MUST* be a timeline where Cooper and TARS land inside the black hole TO BEGIN WITH so the bulk beings can capture them and immediately transport them via the tesseract and place them behind Murphy's bedroom. It's not hard to imagine the frustrated and "gotta be patient" bulk beings could throw some gravitational anomalies here & there to help guide the foolish astronauts to a place THEY ultimately want them to go. It's a lot of fiddling around with stuff, but if they can do it on earth with Cooper's plane I'm sure they can put some signs out there for the astronauts to see near Gargantua.

The bottom line is that both Cooper AND tars MUST eventually get inside the black hole - so that Cooper and TARS can be captured. Cooper needs to experience his NDE and TARS needs to collect the data of gravity. All the bulk beings need to do is keep the tesseract working until Cooper eventually figures it all out. It is also important to note that at this point either the bulk-beings or himself MUST give Cooper & Daughter the NASA coordinates at this stage!!! If this doesn't happen, a TRUE PARADOX will occur (like the billiard ball getting knocked out of the way). More importantly, he must give his daughter the equation successfully so that Plan A works (and, thus, that Plan A always happened). These actions will create circular loops (and that's fine). But before these perfected actions happen, there likely was a lot of "trial and error" on the bulk-beings part along the way. Some of which we are shown in the film, but a lot of it I'm sure we don't see.

The bottom line...
I'm good with Interstellar now. It took me several years, but I think I finally reached that point.
:-)

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi again EyeInSky;

'it is likely they would have visited Edmund's planet, and "PLAN B" would still occur! In fact, I personally think this is originally what happened before any bulk being "toying" with the system. I say this again... WITHOUT COOPER AND MURPHY'S INVOLVEMENT PLAN B STILL DOES OCCUR!!!!!!!!"

With all due respect, you keep coming back to this but imo, two timelines cannot happen with the official explanations of "Interstellar" and due to Thorne's view of time travel.
- You can believe it of course. I've come up with similar ideas. But they are again, not official.

And so I think this is when I'll explain the time travel consistency principal in more detail.
1. Thorne uses the consistency principal.

Later analysis by Thorne and Robert Forward showed that for certain initial trajectories of the billiard ball, there could actually be an infinite number of self-consistent solutions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle

2. The Novikov consistency principle assumes that there is only one timeline and does not include multiple timelines because those timelines are not accessible. From the same article;

The Novikov consistency principle assumes certain conditions about what sort of time travel is possible. Specifically, it assumes either that there is only one timeline, or that any alternative timelines (such as those postulated by the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics) are not accessible.

** Thorne is the science consultant for "Interstellar" and his research is about time travel which follows the consistently principal.
Your interpretation that there was one timeline which had Plan B and a second timeline which has Plan A is your privilege to have, I have laid out such an interpretation.
But a multiple timeline interpretation is inconsistent with the research by Thorne.
A multiple timeline interpretation is not consistent with the official explanation of time travel in "Interstellar".
- We can come up with multiple timeline interpretations but they are not official.

3. What does time travel that is self consistent involve? Again, from the same article;

intelligent beings cannot change the past. Such change is incompatible with the principle of self-consistency. Consequently, any being who went through a wormhole and tried to change the past would be prevented by physical law from making the change;...

if time machines exist, there can be no free will. You cannot will yourself to kill your younger self if you travel back in time.

If there was time travel where a human being could go back in time, they couldn't change anything. For instance if my son went back in time and tried to kill me, it would be impossible. If he had a gun and shot me, the bullet would not hit me. If he took an ax and tried to chop my head off, the ax would be stopped by some force in the universe.
* The same thing applies to preventing death (which is what you are proposing with one timeline with Plan B and another timeline with Plan A).
- To keep the timeline consistent, a time traveler cannot stop someone from dying and cannot prevent disasters which cause lots of deaths.

A common example of the principle in action is the idea of preventing disasters from happening in the past and the potential paradoxes this may cause (notably the idea that preventing the disaster would remove the motive for the traveller to go back and prevent it and so on). The Novikov self-consistency principle states that a time traveller would not be able to do so. An example is the Titanic sinking; even if there were time travelers on the Titanic, they obviously failed to stop the ship from sinking.

http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles/novikov_self-consistency_principle

** Again officially, there cannot be two timelines in "Interstellar"; one where Plan B worked and a second where the Bulk humans got Plan A to work.
- What is the official explanation?
There is only one timeline in "Interstellar" where Plan A worked.

"There *MUST* be a timeline where Cooper and TARS land inside the black hole TO BEGIN WITH "

You have the privilege to believe what you want.
But officially? There was never another timeline in the film.
- There can only be one timeline according to Thorne's research (and the time travel in the film is based on his ideas) which follows the Novikov consistency principle.

* This is where imo you miss what the film makers were trying to do.
There is always one timeline where Plan A worked.
- This is the starting point in understanding the official explanation of the film.
The Bulk beings (including Cooper in the tesseract) who are outside of time; they made changes through gravity which were part of the one timeline.
Anything you bring up from the movie about the timeline; Cooper's accident, Murph, Brand, etc. as well as the influence of the Bulk beings, it is all part of one timeline. Because officially there can only be one timeline.
- How does that work? It is explained by Neil deGrasse Tyson as I mentioned previously.

Tyson argues that in a hypothetical fifth dimension time could function in an non-linear manner which would essentially make questions of time paradoxes irrelevant (because all of time is happening at once).

http://www.avclub.com/article/neil-degrasse-tyson-okay-ending-interstellar-212143

**** Really, your disagreement is not with me. I am just the messenger.
Your disagreement is with the Nolans, Thorne, and Neil deGrasse Tyson.

But anyway, it's interesting how you are exploring multiple timelines. I've already gone down that road.
Of course multiple timelines get rid of the paradoxes. I already showed you how that could be done.

But if we are talking about the official explanation of the timeline in the movie, then it needs to start with the information from articles (like the ones which I cited) about what Thorne's view is and what the Novikov consistency principle is about.
That is the foundation of the time travel story in "Interstellar".

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hi again EyeInSky;

'it is likely they would have visited Edmund's planet, and "PLAN B" would still occur! In fact, I personally think this is originally what happened before any bulk being "toying" with the system. I say this again... WITHOUT COOPER AND MURPHY'S INVOLVEMENT PLAN B STILL DOES OCCUR!!!!!!!!"

With all due respect, you keep coming back to this but imo, two timelines cannot happen with the official explanations of "Interstellar" and due to Thorne's view of time travel.
- You can believe it of course. I've come up with similar ideas. But they are again, not official.

And so I think this is when I'll explain the time travel consistency principal in more detail.
1. Thorne uses the consistency principal.
Later analysis by Thorne and Robert Forward showed that for certain initial trajectories of the billiard ball, there could actually be an infinite number of self-consistent solutions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle

In reading the article, all that is required is that the interactions in the past do not cause any paradoxes. So instead of my simplistic theory of referring to the events as "3 different timelines", let's scrap that and say "1 altered timeline". The article does say it's OKAY for specific alterations providing it doesn't cause any paradoxes. So in other words... you CAN go back in time and VISIT with yourself. Even take yourself out for a beer! But you cannot kill yourself so that you don't exist. Likewise, you cannot kill your father or grandfather so you do not exist. Theoretically you could try, but since you already existed in the first place... nature will find a way to prevent it from happening. Perhaps you miss the shot. Or perhaps your gun misfires, etc.

There was a cool moment in "The Matrix" when Joe Pantoliano was about to murder Neo (Keanu Reeves). He even said... if this is true, SOMETHING will stop me to prevent this from happening (and he was right).

Speaking of Keanu Reeves, in Bill & Ted's excellent adventure (that involved time travel), wasn't there a moment when he said in order to get out of this predicament we need something... like a key to a lock (I forget), so he just said to himself "okay... so when we DO get into the future we will make sure to place the key here in the past". And wallah... there it is (and obviously, the follow-through MUST happen some time or another or else the key would not have been there in the first place).

So all I'm saying is that because the influence used was gravity, and since there was no DIRECT interaction between the characters and the "bulk beings", all seems to be okay.

But if we are going to get technical about things, one can argue the gravitational anomalies caused Cooper's plane to crash (that's an inconsistency). Wormholes didn't exist in the present time, but the future beings went back in time and created one (that's an inconsistency... making something there that wasn't there before and wouldn't have been there before). One can argue the drone aircraft getting out of whack is an inconsitency, etc. And I'm sure there are ripples & ripples of inconsistencies with doing ANY kind of time travel (no matter how you look at it). Novikov's "self consistency" principal only seems to require there are no paradoxes as a result of the "meddling" with the past (or future).

I'm not saying this is "multiple world" timelines. My reference to "timeline 1, timeline 2, timeline 3" was to make it simpler to distinguish the differences of what happens on the same timeline as things become altered & influenced. If it causes a paradox, then nature won't allow it. But as long as the changes are paradox-free, all is good providing it is only influenced by gravity... so my resolution of the film works for me.

I'm okay if it doesn't work for you, but it makes complete logical sense to me now. It is, after all, a movie showing fantastical events while grounded in quite a bit of physics & science. From a MOVIE-going perspective, the "Cooper giving Cooper the NASA coordinates isn't so problematic anymore. And Plan A always happening in the present tense was only a result of the bulk-beings (from Plan B) going back in time to alter things to ensure that it happens.

Otherwise... in your argument... there IS no movie. There IS no story. There are NO choices. It would be just like listening to a recorded record. As long as somehow... someway... the Plan B can become altered so that Plan A works (possibly even IN TANDEM with Plan B) so there are no paradoxes, it all works.

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi again EyeInSky;

"it makes complete logical sense to me now."

And that's all that matters. You don't have to accept the official explanation.
I said before that you could ignore what I wrote and it would not hurt my feelings.
You can come up with whatever you want (Plan B first and then Plan A later),

I respect your view wherever it leads.

"Otherwise... in your argument..."

Honestly. It's not my argument.
The inspiration for what I've presented to you started from hardcore fans of "Interstellar".
And they directed me to the Nolans, Thorne and Neil deGrasse Tyson.
So, it is really the film maker's and the expert's argument.
Again, I'm just the messenger.

"there IS no movie. There IS no story. There are NO choices. It would be just like listening to a recorded record."

You are kind of right.
But what one hardcore fan of "Interstellar" told me, it didn't matter that the story had to happen (and there was no free will).
He said that the characters did not know that when things were happening.
Cooper, Murph, and Brand (younger and older) fully lived those moments as if they could fail.
And for this one hardcore fan, that's all that mattered; the emotion of those scenes of people believing that they were facing disaster.

"the Plan B can become altered so that Plan A works... so there are no paradoxes, it all works."

I'm afraid not.
With all due respect, I'll explain this some more.

A time traveler preventing a disaster in the past (which caused lots of deaths) leads to paradoxes.
If a time traveler prevented the Titanic from sinking, all those people are now alive which can create thousands of changes to the timeline and thousands of paradoxes. It can't be done. If it did happen, who knows, maybe you or I would not exist.

A common example of the principle in action is the idea of preventing disasters from happening in the past and the potential paradoxes this may cause... The Novikov self-consistency principle states that a time traveller would not be able to do so. An example is the Titanic sinking,...

http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles/novikov_self-consistency_principle

Plan B is a disaster where hundreds of thousands to millions die. The elder Dr. Brand explains that Plan B means that almost all the people on earth will die.
Time travelers / time manipulation cannot allow those people to first die (Plan B) and then change the timeline to save those millions of people (with Plan A).
Such an intervention violates the Novikov self-consistency principle.
- With Plan B and no Bulk being intervention, Cooper does not go on the mission. Maybe none of the people who die with Cooper died without him. Maybe Mann for instance didn't die with Plan B. Having Bulk being intervention happen later, may first cause Mann to live (and have Bulk being descendants) and then die ending that genetic line, a paradox.

Plan B later turning into Plan A is not the official explanation of "Interstellar".

"(possibly even IN TANDEM with Plan B)"

That gets closer.
If Plan A always worked, then that is the official explanation.
Back to Neil deGrasse Tyson;

Tyson argues that in a hypothetical fifth dimension time could function in an non-linear manner which would essentially make questions of time paradoxes irrelevant (because all of time is happening at once).

http://www.avclub.com/article/neil-degrasse-tyson-okay-ending-interstellar-212143

"I'm okay if it doesn't work for you,"

I think the movie works better with multiple timelines. That is what I first came up with.
But then I gave up my personal interpretations because hardcore fans had long debates with me and THEY steered me to the official explanations of the movie.
Again, I'm just the messenger.

"My reference to "timeline 1, timeline 2, timeline 3" was to make it simpler to distinguish the differences of what happens on the same timeline as things become altered & influenced. If it causes a paradox, then nature won't allow it. But as long as the changes are paradox-free all is good providing it is only influenced by gravity..."

Yes, and what I've tried to show is that a Plan B timeline later changed to a Plan A timeline is loaded with paradoxes.
Officially, Plan A with the Bulk beings intervention always happened;
"all of time is happening at once".

* The Bulk beings causing Cooper's accident, Cooper/Bulk being in the tesseract putting dust on the floor or moving books, all happened at the same time in one timeline.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

And... hi again BB.

"it makes complete logical sense to me now."

And that's all that matters. You don't have to accept the official explanation.
I said before that you could ignore what I wrote and it would not hurt my feelings.
You can come up with whatever you want (Plan B first and then Plan A later),

I respect your view wherever it leads.

... And I also respect your view wherever THAT leads. Even if we don't see completely eye-to-eye, our discussions have been enormously helpful. And I have read all the links that you gave me.

Yes, and what I've tried to show is that a Plan B timeline later changed to a Plan A timeline is loaded with paradoxes.
Officially, Plan A with the Bulk beings intervention always happened;
"all of time is happening at once".

* The Bulk beings causing Cooper's accident, Cooper/Bulk being in the tesseract putting dust on the floor or moving books, all happened at the same time in one timeline.

... I can accept all of these happening on the same ALTERED timeline. I can also accept "all time is happening at once" exclusively for the "bulk-beings". This includes Cooper and TARS in the tesseract. But this does NOT include any of the human earthlings shown in the film (including Brand, Cooper, Murph, and everyone else). Humans cannot experience events happening simultaneously like the "bulk-beings" can. Bulk beings are mostly invisible to us. All that we see is a by-product... a sort of "artifact" of their gravitational anomalies. The dust piles. The distorted view of the hand-shaking between female Brand and Cooper, the ticking watch, etc. All of these are "artifacts" of the gravitational distortion - but the "beings" themselves are completely invisible.

The thing is... once the timeline is changed to the bulk-beings liking (it is important to acknowledge the timeline IS changed as long as it is paradox-free). At that point the timeline becomes "set in stone" as if it ALWAYS has happened that way. Hence... like all we are doing is experiencing a recording of the choices that everyone was already predestined to make. Even your OWN very choices were already made... we will just experience them when we get to them later in our own very time. :-)

Just also know that at any given time other "bulk-beings" can meddle with the timeline yet AGAIN and mess with things to interact and make things different... which, at that moment would make it seem like the "new" version has always been "set in stone". If the "bulk-beings" can interfere once, there's nothing stopping them from doing it again if they so choose.

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hello again EyeInSky; We are now able to get down to about as deep as the supporters of "Interstellar" have gotten with me.

"... I can accept all of these happening on the same ALTERED timeline. I can also accept "all time is happening at once" exclusively for the "bulk-beings"."

We are far enough to go into more detail.
And the question comes, how can things happen at once with time alterations?
- I'll now discuss a consistent timeline with time travel in a movie called "The Time Traveler's Wife".
After a long debate with a supporter of "Interstellar", we agreed that this was the best film to illustrate how the time travel in "Interstellar" could be done.
- If you haven't seen "The Time Traveler's Wife", I suggest checking it out.

I'm going to refer to an article "A physicist looks at The Time Traveler's Wife"
By Dave Goldberg
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2009/08/timetraveling_for_dummies.html

1. As we've discussed; There is only one timeline;

In a rule-abiding time-travel narrative, there are no parallel universes—just a single timeline. The Time-Traveler's Wife follows this rule to a T,

This is the kind of time travel that Goldberg prefers. It is the kind of time travel in "The Time Traveler's Wife" and "Interstellar".

2. When was the time machine built?

As a time traveler, you can't visit an era unless there's already a time machine when you get there—an off-ramp. This helps explain why we're not visited by time-traveling tourists from our own future. Futuristic humans don't drop in for dinner because we haven't yet invented time travel.

The time-machine construction clause is one of the most often overlooked of the rules of time travel ...
The Time Traveler's Wife very nearly gets it right: Since Henry is the time machine, he can't visit any time before he was born.

Imo in "Interstellar" the Bulk beings (in the tesseract and what ever devices created the wormhole and the bulk in the black hole, are outside of time. So, this way these devices seems to get around when time travel can happen.
- Anyway, supporters promote that idea and so does Neil deGrasse Tyson.

3. As mentioned before; No grandfather paradox or other paradoxes;

the mid-1980s, when Igor Novikov of the University of Moscow used quantum mechanical arguments to develop what has become known as the "self-consistency theorem." Quantum randomness must obey well-established laws, and Novikov showed that the probability of producing a different future with a time machine was zero. To put it more simply: You cannot alter history in any way that changes it from what it always was.

So, try as you might, you can't kill your own grandfather, nor can you change history at all.....

in The Time Traveler's Wife. Since Henry DeTamble serves as his own time machine, there's little chance of his preventing his own birth.

There is one timeline and any time travel must have no paradoxes.
No one can be killed. No one can be saved from being killed by time travel.

4. There is not only a severe limit to free will in a single timeline where the outcome must happen, but future time travelers can guide those in the past to follow what must happen in the timeline;

if you've already seen what your destiny is, then the future is already written....

In The Time Traveler's Wife, Henry and Clare enforce the (predetermined) future by giving each other instructions and hints about how things are supposed to happen. That gives them a feeling of free choice where none really exists.

"Interstellar" follows all of these elements.
1. One timeline.
2. Bulk beings who can initialize time travel whenever they wish.
3. No paradoxes.
4. The result of the timeline is known by the Bulk beings
- They are giving hints, nudges to get things the way they are supposed to happen.
The Bulk beings know Plan A will work. They make small influences to make that a reality.

This follows Novikov consistency principles and Thorne's research.

* Closed Timelike Curve
But back to Cooper. Is there a causal loop or in more technical language; a closed timelike curve?
What can a closed timelike curve do?

Entering a closed timelike curve tomorrow means you could end up at today.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/time-travel-simulation-resolves-grandfather-paradox/

Something from the future in a loop affects the past.

How can that be done? From the same scientific American article;

An extremely powerful gravitational field, such as that produced by a spinning black hole, could in principle profoundly warp the fabric of existence so that spacetime bends back on itself. This would create a "closed timelike curve," or CTC, a loop that could be traversed to travel back in time.

This should be familiar to events in "Interstellar".
- A spinning black hole
- An artificially created area in that black hole which can bend time back on itself.

Paradoxes? Those are solved by our old friend the self consistency principle through quantum mechanics.

Deutsch's insight was to postulate self-consistency in the quantum realm, to insist that any particle entering one end of a CTC must emerge at the other end with identical properties.

* All of that mashed together is the supporter's argument for why "Interstellar' works as the film makers and the experts claim;
- using science fiction, "The Time Traveler's Wife"
- and some research with the closed timelike curve.

And to bring in Kip Thorne again, he has done his own research with closed timelike curves though that is too technical for my level of understanding. Still, this clearly shows what Thorne was investigating which could be used by the film makers.
https://www.its.caltech.edu/~kip/scripts/ClosedTimelikeCurves-II121.pdf

"This includes Cooper and TARS in the tesseract. But this does NOT include any of the human earthlings shown in the film (including Brand, Cooper, Murph, and everyone else). Humans cannot experience events happening simultaneously like the "bulk-beings" can."

It all comes down to Cooper. He is the key. He is crucial to making Plan A happen.
And Cooper experiences a closed timelike curve.
For him, the future information from the tesseract (dust on the floor) is past.

* That's the pro "Interstellar" explanation as far as I know. That's what the film makers and experts are pointing to imo.

"The thing is... once the timeline is changed to the bulk-beings liking (it is important to acknowledge the timeline IS changed as long as it is paradox-free)."

Agreed. But paradox free means that Plan A always worked imo.
Approximately a million people can't go from dead to alive with no paradoxes.
Those people always lived with Plan A.

"Just also know that at any given time other "bulk-beings" can meddle with the timeline yet AGAIN and mess with things to interact and make things different... which, at that moment would make it seem like the "new" version has always been "set in stone". If the "bulk-beings" can interfere once, there's nothing stopping them from doing it again if they so choose."

This idea goes beyond what I've discussed about "Interstellar".
I've reached a point where I can go no further.
And you are right that other magical Bulk beings could theoretically mess with the timeline but Thorne would argue that no paradoxes could be created.
But you seem to be implying that other Bulk beings could create another timeline with paradoxes (stop Plan A and do Plan B) and then that's the new timeline.
- That's not what the hardcore fans, film makers and experts are claiming.
And I'm just the messenger for their POV.

* With all due respect for your view; I think anyone who looks at "Interstellar" deeply has to ask; do I accept the film maker's / expert's explanation or not?
There is no law that a viewer has to go along with what they say or Thorne's research or Neil deGrasse Tyson's opinion.

And I really have no personal stake in this.
I've gotten to a point where I've given you the full official explanation to the best of my knowledge and ability.

I feel satisfied with the entire exchange between us.
It's given me a chance to go over "Interstellar" again, in detail which I'll keep handy for the next time questions about the movie are brought up.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

A time traveler preventing a disaster in the past (which caused lots of deaths) leads to paradoxes.
If a time traveler prevented the Titanic from sinking, all those people are now alive which can create thousands of changes to the timeline and thousands of paradoxes. It can't be done. If it did happen, who knows, maybe you or I would not exist.
A common example of the principle in action is the idea of preventing disasters from happening in the past and the potential paradoxes this may cause... The Novikov self-consistency principle states that a time traveller would not be able to do so. An example is the Titanic sinking,...

http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles/novikov_self-consistency_principle

Plan B is a disaster where hundreds of thousands to millions die. The elder Dr. Brand explains that Plan B means that almost all the people on earth will die. Time travelers / time manipulation cannot allow those people to first die (Plan B) and then change the timeline to save those millions of people (with Plan A). Such an intervention violates the Novikov self-consistency principle.

- With Plan B and no Bulk being intervention, Cooper does not go on the mission. Maybe none of the people who die with Cooper died without him. Maybe Mann for instance didn't die with Plan B. Having Bulk being intervention happen later, may first cause Mann to live (and have Bulk being descendants) and then die ending that genetic line, a paradox.

Plan B later turning into Plan A is not the official explanation of "Interstellar".

... Then can you explain WHY "they" implanted the wormhole? Why create gravitational anomalies causing Cooper's plane to crash? It seems to me the whole purpose of the intervention from the bulk-beings in the first place was to assist to ensure Plan A is a success. Without their help, I don't see how Plan A works. That is the point of the whole entire story.

By the way, EXCELLENT link about the self-consistency principle!!!!! It's extremely detailed.

What I think the filmmaker(s) intentions were in explaining the movie is... by the time the movie is over a self-consistent loop has been created as if Plan A always happened since the beginning. What appears to be going on is the bulk beings are "spinning their plates" so-to-speak, and when things are falling into place in such a way the situation is paradox free they hault their interference by closing the tesseract (and possibly closing the wormhole along with). At this moment, we have a circular situation where Cooper is giving himself the coordinates to NASA, and after he visits NASA he gets saved by the tesseract so he slide back in time and give himself the coordinates again. Rinse & repeat. The circular loop AT THIS STAGE is as if it has always happened that way. The consistency principal appears to apply.

Otherwise, there would be no need for the bulk beings to place the wormhole, or to interfere with Cooper, or to make him give his daughter the gravitational answer (since she would have simply discovered it on her own without him... since Plan A always worked). The impossible loop is only created because of time travel anomalies and the point at which "they" freeze things in place so things always happen that way. It's like the Chicken or the Egg. And just like you stated, it makes this question irrelevant because one always leads to the other and the other always leads to the one with no requirement of one being first. This only happens when the loop is established. Without the established loop, Cooper's life would move forward like every normal human earthly being. The bulk beings' interference made Coop's travels and life a circular anomaly (but it wasn't always that way). We just don't see how things originally played out or why (exactly) the bulk beings did things the precise way they did. We are simply not privy to the "insider" information (which is an unfortunate side effect for maintaining these principals you speak of).

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi EyeInSky; I just posted a detailed reply to another of your posts which goes into a lot of the reasoning and basis of the official explanation of "Interstellar" (with some references) as I understand it.

- My suggestion is this.
Please look over what I wrote to you about 'The Time Traveler's Wife" and then after that (I'll give you time to do this), you can get back to me if you wish and I'll post another comment to your most recent one.

Any answer I give you from now on is going to be based on the more detailed explanations in my last post to you.

I hope you are OK with that.

BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hi BB,

I just read your link the "Time Traveler's Wife: Time Travel for Dummies" article. Believe it or not, I haven't seen "The Time Traveler's Wife" yet. Thanks for the recommendation. They are saying this movie gets time travel right, so I definitely should make an effort to watch that one soon. Hopefully before the year's over.

I also skimmed through some of the Kip Thorne PDF. It mostly talks about closed timeline curves. I'm not about to attempt to examine the formula and diagrams (way too complex). I also just finished reading "Time Travel Simulation Resolves Grandfather Paradox". A good chunk of it was nonsense, but a good deal of it was informative. The final link for me to read is the thorough write-up explaining Novikov's Self-Consistency Principle... which seems to be the "core" of your discussion.

In the meantime, the Time Traveler's Wife article (that abides by Novikov's self consistency) shows 4 main rules:

(1) This is the only universe we have.
... This means we can't create "multiple timelines" or "multiple universes" through the act of influencing the past via time travel. Although personally, I do believe (this is not proven though) there ARE multiple universes that exist. Not "mirror personality" universes that are described in sci-fi movies like "Coherence". I'm just talking about there being many (possibly billions) in existence. Carl Sagan has also commented the likelihood of this. I'm not saying we can travel to a "neighboring" universe. We can only exist inside the one we're in. So anyway, this fundamental principal prevents movies like Back to the Future (Grandfather Paradox) to be true.

(2) You can't visit any time before the time machine was built.
... I really like this principal. As mentioned, it's the only violation made in James Cameron's '84 movie "The Terminator". From reading the article, "The Time Traveler's Wife" pretty much follows this to a T - except for showing how his daughter can travel through time going past HER birth to a previous time where her dad existed (but not before that). In this case, the people are the time machines THEMSELVES - so to follow this rule one shouldn't be able to travel to a point before they were born. In the movie Interstellar, are we saying the bulk beings CAN go to any timeframe? I'm assuming the "bulk beings" are genetically evolved humans - where they mutated and have this ability internally in their bodies (kind of like The Time Traveler's Wife). If that is the case, this rule would require they can only travel BACK to a time no earlier than when the able-being was born.

(3) You can't kill your own grandfather.
... Basically, they're just saying you can't kill people in the past to prevent your own existence. It says you cannot alter history in any way THAT PREVENTS IT FROM BEING THE WAY IT ALWAYS WAS. But one can argue ANY kind of manipulation (even casual talk or information passed along) could have "ripple effects" that lead to a possible "Butterfly Effect". Maybe they are just saying you can't go back in time to REMOVE something (like killing your father or grandfather for instance), but it's perfectly okay to go back in time and SAVE someone from dying (since your father and grandfather would still be born). However, maybe this also means you can't go back and save your grandfather's X-Girlfriend if it meant preventing the pregnancy that gives birth to your dad, etc. Maybe this is the only requirement about the Grandfather Paradox - in that it's generally okay to save but not okay to remove/kill.

But ANY alteration changes history. Even sitting at a bar and having a drink with yourself would change the "history of your life". From a physics standpoint, it shouldn't matter if the history involves thousands of lives, a dozen lives, or 1 life. History could mean just the act of living and existing, but perhaps History also means simply being at someplace at some given time. You see what I'm saying?

(4) You don't nearly have as much "free will" as you think you do.
... This concept is a strange one, but is one I believe could be possible. All of the decisions people make (and the impact they have on others), may already been "set in stone". So people go through life THINKING they made the decision to go to college and get that degree. Or they THINK they decided to purchase that Corvette instead of that Prius. Or to work for company X-Y-Z. Yet, if you have a time machine you could theoretically move forward in time and watch the decisions people were always "destined" to make. It's an odd feeling, but haven't there been some surreal moments in your own personal life when you kind felt that way? Whether it be a "Deja Vu" moment, or something like that?

Back to Interstellar...

Along with solving the paradoxial questions of the film, more importantly (because this is a MOVIE and not a physics class) is understanding the story that was given to us. It's not my goal or desire to make up falsehoods of what could explain things when the physics experts and filmmakers already have a solid explanation to what's going on. What I'm trying to do is grasp THEIR story (not fabricate my own).

So the 4th/5h dimensional beings screwing with gravity that causes Cooper's plane to crash DID change history (it wasn't going to crash without the anomaly - as confirmed by the scientists at NASA). But the history it changed didn't result in Cooper's DEATH! That's the critical piece of the consistency principle as I understand it. The 4th/5th dimensional beings implanting the wormhole near Saturn also changes history. The "bulk" appears to exist outside of time. The "bulk beings" also appear to exist outside of time. But the wormhole (and traveling through it) does exist inside the time period of the people transporting through it.

There were also comments by Thorne (and other physicists) saying that a wormhole itself could lead to the possibility of traveling back in time. Do you think this is possible providing the wormhole is apart from your standard everyday human-built device? In other words, is it possible that wormholes are not be bound to Novikov's self-consistency principles? Would it be possible to travel further back in the past (than allowed with Rule #2) if it happens via womrhole or rotating black hole due to these closed time curves (CTC's)?

===

I sense that you feel you have hit a wall as I have. Perhaps you can give me your interpretation of the story of Interstellar (as Kip, Nolan, Co. sees it). Could you offer a 1 or 2 paragraph summary of what the movie was about and how things played out in such a way that makes time travel, wormholes, predestination paradoxes, and all the other stuff possible. If Plan A always existed, what was the point of influencing Cooper (and indirectly influencing Murph)? Is the movie nothing more than watching a segment of "pre-recorded" tape? Or does the movie offer characters making real choices that are meaningful and impactful?

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi again EyeInSky;

"But ANY alteration changes history. Even sitting at a bar and having a drink with yourself would change the "history of your life"."

Yes, that kind of free will interaction having unforeseen effects could be imagined due to the butterfly effect.
But "Interstellar" has very limited effects through time travel because it's limited to gravity.
- Still the intervention by the Bulk beings involves important events in the history of the timeline.
- But this kind of time travel has to get rid of paradoxes in one timeline.
How to do this?
1. Have what the Bulk beings do happen simultaneously as Neil deGrasse Tyson says.

Tyson argues that in a hypothetical fifth dimension time could function in an non-linear manner which would essentially make questions of time paradoxes irrelevant (because all of time is happening at once).

http://www.avclub.com/article/neil-degrasse-tyson-okay-ending-interstellar-212143

2. Have the Bulk being actions have no free will and make their action as always part of the timeline.

(4) You don't nearly have as much "free will" as you think you do.

"... This concept is a strange one, but is one I believe could be possible."

I think it is crucial to the official/expert explanation of time travel in "Interstellar".

"All of the decisions people make (and the impact they have on others), may already been "set in stone".

By setting actions in stone with time travel to the past with not only the people in the past but with the time travelers, that gets rid of paradoxes.
The effects of the Bulk beings in the past and what the people in the past do in the timeline does not involve free will.
The effects of the Bulk beings and the people in the past are in one timeline which always happened.

"So the 4th/5h dimensional beings screwing with gravity that causes Cooper's plane to crash DID change history..."

Not according to these articles and quotes I've been giving you.
The plane crash was not a change in history. It is part of the only history which ever happened.
- The actions of the Bulk beings are always part of history.
Again from the time travel article and "The Time Traveler's Wife".

if you've already seen what your destiny is, then the future is already written....

In The Time Traveler's Wife, Henry and Clare enforce the (predetermined) future by giving each other instructions and hints about how things are supposed to happen. That gives them a feeling of free choice where none really exists.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2009/08/timetraveling_for_dummies.html

What the people from the future do in that film is always part of the timeline. They are careful. Check it out.
- There is one timeline which there has to be in this kind of time travel.
- It can not have paradoxes.
* So, in this kind of time travel which is also in "Interstellar", if time travelers from the future go to the past and become part of the events in the past, then the actions of the time travelers must be part of the timeline with no paradoxes.
These actions have no free will. They just help to make the timeline happen so there are no paradoxes.

"The 4th/5th dimensional beings implanting the wormhole near Saturn also changes history."

That's impossible according to the information I've been giving you.
Again, the wormhole was always be part of history in this kind of time travel which always has one timeline with no paradoxes.
- If there was no wormhole, there were no Bulk beings according to the story and the explanations by the film makers.
No wormhole would lead to humanity staying in our solar system which sets up a paradox which is not possible in this kind of time travel.
Having Bulk beings by some other method (unrelated to humanity) would also lead to two timelines which is not possible in this kind of time travel.
- So, the wormhole must always happen. It is part of the timeline. That leads to the Bulk beings.
And then Bulk beings have no free will to not create the wormhole in the future to the past.
They must do it.

Basically, the actions of the Bulk beings and the humans in the past are mashed together in one timeline which always happened.
There is no free will about it. It must be done.
That gets rid of the paradoxes.
And that keeps the time travel in one timeline.

* I'll end here because these are the core issues which I can give you in the end about this movie which were explained to me by the hardcore fans.
Again, the film "The Time Travler's Wife" is a good example of this kind of time travel.
- It has interventions from the future by time travelers but there are no paradoxes and there is only one timeline.
That is because the intervention by the future time travelers was always part of the timeline.
There is no free will to it. Future beings / past beings are all together simultaneously in one timeline which must happen.

* That's where I was led in my journey in debating about this movie and with the feedback I got from hardcore fans and in looking at the official / expert explanations of this film and this kind of time travel.
And I'm sharing that with you.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hello again, BB.

I understand the appearance of a single "only ONE timeline exists" when it comes to time travel. What this means is... if you go back in time and change/alter/influence something in the past... the timeline everybody is on has the appearance that history ALWAYS HAPPENED THAT WAY. I will even go so far as to agree the laws & physics that occurs must be as if history has always happened that way.

But there still is at least a "theoretical" alternate version of events. But I see how this idea could be false because... of that "free will" clause you and I spoke of... even the CHOICE (and act) of designing a time machine so that you can go back in the first place is something that will have always happened (since our actions are already set in stone).

So take Interstellar (again)...

Once Cooper gives himself the coordinates, it's as if he ALWAYS has given himself the coordinates. It's in his "set in stone" destiny to give himself the NASA coordinates. I still have a problem with that (in how it was played out and shown to us) because I feel it still leads to an impossible set of events (with Cooper) that just doesn't make sense.

===

So (if you don't mind), I would like to ask you again if you could please explain the story of Interstellar. What happened in the movie, and how everything plays out. Feel free to write the "Cliff notes" version of the story and pretend I have never seen it before (but also know that spoilers in this case won't bother me). In fact, the spoilers are essential in this case.

===

On a side note, only a couple more days for Arrival ! ! ! !

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi; I thought I'd let you know that some of the ideas you and TRinzler played around with have improved my appreciation of "Interstellar".

Given this scenario, the Ranger accident which ended his pilot career and resulted in him becoming a farmer and having kids was also manufactured by THEM! THEY deliberately ended Cooper's NASA career prematurely, so he would start a family and eventually have a daughter. Remember that when Cooper sees the Tesseract he realises that he isn't the key, SHE IS!

... An epiphany came to me as I read this comment. I never considered the possibility of "THEY" causing Cooper's previous crash, so that his NASA career would end so he would farm instead (and have a relationship with his daughter).

What this did was to have me look at the beginning of the movie in a more favorable light (it had always been the weakest part of the film previously for me).
- Now I'm looking at parts of the entire beginning for clues of intervention by the Bulk beings; Cooper's crash, the drone which just so happened to land near him (and the anomaly) and the relationship between Cooper and Murph; since it seems that she was a focus for the Bulk beings to get the timeline to work.
- I saw "Interstellar" tonight as a result.

"But there still is at least a "theoretical" alternate version of events."

For lots of time travel stories that's true; Star Trek (2009) for instance.
But officially "Interstellar" and "The Time Traveler's Wife" are only in one timeline which is set in stone.

"Once Cooper gives himself the coordinates, it's as if he ALWAYS has given himself the coordinates. It's in his "set in stone" destiny to give himself the NASA coordinates."

Yes. The most savvy science character in the movie is the older Murph.
And she says in her room as she is looking at the bookcase and is figuring out what was happening (including the code in the watch);

Murph: It was him! All this time.

That gives the film maker's message about time travel in a nutshell. It was happening all the time.
Added to that; not only are the Bulk beings outside of time but so is Cooper in the Bulk. And his effect is the same kind of thing as what the Bulk beings were doing.

Cooper: What I’ve been doing for Murph, they’ve been doing for me.

"I still have a problem with that (in how it was played out and shown to us)..."

"Interstellar" often does a lot of hand holding for the audience with the dialogue. But not with the answer to the mystery of the time travel.
There are bits of dialogue which I found throughout the movie which point to the official interpretation but it''s not super clear.
You could fault the movie for this more vague style if you wish.
What they meant about time travel was not made super clear in the film.

"because I feel it still leads to an impossible set of events (with Cooper) that just doesn't make sense."

As you mentioned before, it's funny what can bug a person about a film.
- For something weird in the movie, the time travel ideas behind "Interstellar" probably have the most support from the work of Thorne and other scientists who have discussed this kind of time travel. It fits the science very well as I've shown.
- There are so many other science fiction ideas in the film which are put in there simply for story purposes. The anti-gravity equation for instance, the huge amount of time dilation, the power of the Cooper shuttle to blast off from planets, the inability of the crew to see that the Miller and the Mann planets were obviously unsuitable for a human civilization without having to land on them.

But the single timeline idea with no paradoxes, and no free will? This is pretty solidly supported as I've mentioned.

"I would like to ask you again if you could please explain the story of Interstellar."

I'm not going to talk about the whole thing since a lot of it is magical science fiction. There is also plenty of emotional story telling in the movie which I think leads to its huge popularity.

* I'll focus just on the time travel story.
- And that is becoming pretty clear to me.

* First, I'll list all the movie's quotes I can find which imo support my view of the time travel story.

Cooper: Whatever can happen, will happen.

[they walk over to the drone]
Young Tom: How long do you think it’s been up there?
Cooper: The Delhi Mission Control went down same as ours, ten years ago.
Young Tom: So for ten years?
[Cooper touches the surface of the drone]
Young Tom: Why did it come down so low? ...
Cooper: Maybe some kind of signal. I don’t know.

Cooper: I had to reset every compass clock and GPS to offset off the anomaly.
Donald: Which is?
Cooper: I don’t know. Now if the house had been built on magnetic ore we would have seen this the first time we switched on the tractor.

Romilly: We started detecting gravitational anomalies almost fifty years ago. Mostly small distortions to our instruments in the upper atmosphere. In fact I believe you encountered one yourself.
Cooper: Yeah, in the Straits. My crash, something tripped my fly-by-wire.

Professor Brand: We had no choice. But something sent you here, they chose you.
Cooper: Who’s “they”?

Romilly: Of all these anomalies, the most significant is this: out near Saturn, a disturbance of space-time.
Cooper: It's a wormhole?
Romilly: Appeared 48 years ago.
Cooper: And, it leads where?
Dr. Brand: Another galaxy.
Cooper: A wormhole's not a naturally occurring phenomenon...
Brand: Someone placed it there.

Brand: They are beings of five dimensions. Right, to them, time might be another physical dimension. To them, the past might be a canyon that they can climb into, and the future, a mountain that they can climb up,

TARS: Yes it is! You've seen that time is represented here as a *physical* dimension! You've worked out that you *can* exert a force across space-time!
Cooper: Gravity. To send a message.
TARS: Affirmative.
Cooper: Gravity can cross the dimensions, including time.

Cooper: I thought they chose me. But they didn't choose me, they chose her!
TARS: For what, Cooper?
Cooper: To save the world! All of this, is one little girl's bedroom, every moment! It's infinitely complex! They have access, to infinite time and space, but they're not *bound* by anything! They can't find a specific place *in* time, they can't communicate. That's why I'm here. I'm gonna find a way to tell Murph, just like I found this moment.

Murph: It was him! All this time.

Cooper: Don’t you get it yet, TARS? They’re not beings. They’re us! What I’ve been doing for Murph, they’ve been doing for me. For all of us.
TARS: Cooper, people couldn’t build this.
Cooper: No, No, not yet. But one day. Not you and me. But a people. A civilization that’s evolved past the four dimensions that we know.

* The background to the time travel story;
- The destiny of the timeline is known. Plan A always worked. That led to earth's population getting off of earth and colonizing another planet in another galaxy through a wormhole. Simultaneous with this, future humans using gravity helped to make the timeline happen.
There was only a single timeline.
The humans and the Bulk beings in the story have no free will. This timeline must happen the way it is shown.

* The chronology of the timeline;
- About 48 years before the movie starts, the Bulk beings created an artificial wormhole which had an entrance near Saturn.
- The Bulk beings then created gravitational anomalies in the upper atmosphere. This led to Cooper's crash.
That resulted in Cooper becoming a farmer and having a close relationship with his daughter Murph.
- The Bulk beings created the bulk area in a large black hole which was focused on every event which happened in Murph's bedroom.
This resulted in gravitational anomalies around Cooper's house.
It brought the drone near the house.
An automated harvest machine ended up steering itself to the house.
- Murph noticed that objects in her bedroom are moving, a model of a NASA lander and books.
This is being done by Cooper while he is outside of time while in the bulk in the black hole.
- Cooper goes into space and eventually gets to the black hole with TARS.
He enters the bulk, an artificial section of the black hole where the Bulk beings have designed a time machine where gravity can affect every moment which occurs in Murph's room.
Cooper then uses the time machine which alters the gravity in Murph's room to send messages.
- Cooper is eventually able to send the older Murph a code using the hand of her watch which gives the information from inside the black hole which allows Murph to complete the anti-gravity equation.
- Murph's equation is used to lift off space stations from earth which have (as far as I know) all of earth's population.
The equation is used to move the space stations nearby Saturn where the entrance to the wormhole is located.
- Humanity's space stations will travel in the wormhole to a planet in another galaxy where humans can build a new civilization.
- This human civilization will eventually evolve to become the Bulk beings.
- The Bulk beings will be compelled (they have no free will about this) to do all the actions which make this timeline possible.

* That's what I conclude from all the fans of the movie who've discussed it, as well as the film itself, what the film makers have said, the science behind the film and scientists who've commented about it or about similar kinds of time travel.

Again, I recommend checking out "Time Traveler's Wife".
And I'm also waiting for "Arrival".

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi again EyeInSky; I figure you have had time to read my "The Time Traveler's Wife" post.
I'll go from there with your last comment.

"... Then can you explain WHY "they" implanted the wormhole? Why create gravitational anomalies causing Cooper's plane to crash? It seems to me the whole purpose of the intervention from the bulk-beings in the first place was to assist to ensure Plan A is a success. Without their help, I don't see how Plan A works. That is the point of the whole entire story...

Otherwise, there would be no need for the bulk beings to place the wormhole, or to interfere with Cooper, or to make him give his daughter the gravitational answer (since she would have simply discovered it on her own without him... since Plan A always worked).

A quote from the article about time travel using "The Time Traveler's Wife" as an illustration;

if you've already seen what your destiny is, then the future is already written....

In The Time Traveler's Wife, Henry and Clare enforce the (predetermined) future by giving each other instructions and hints about how things are supposed to happen. That gives them a feeling of free choice where none really exists.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2009/08/timetraveling_for_dummies.html

Using this interpretation of time travel, the Bulk beings have no free will with regard to their intervention.
(Realize that the timeline in the movie extends out to the distant future which leads to the Bulk beings.)
They enforce the predetermined future by giving hints about how things are supposed to happen (wormhole, bulk area in a black hole, helping Cooper get to the bulk to create the closed timelike curve [time loop]).
The viewer may think the Bulk beings have free choice in this timeline but they don't according to this interpretation (using the article I cited above).
- "The Time Traveler's Wife" again is what the most persistent fan of "Interstellar" pointed me to.

"Without the established loop, Cooper's life would move forward like every normal human earthly being.'

The closed timelike curve (time loop) must happen. The Bulk beings must allow Cooper to create it in this interpretation such as using "The Time Traveler's Wife" ideas.

* This final argument by a hardcore fan of "Interstellar" is what finally broke down my resistance to the single timeline idea in the movie.
I looked at Thorne's research, the self consistency principle and went into detail about how "The Time Traveler's Wife" worked (which I had seen) and I gave up the multiple timeline interpretation as the official explanation for "Interstellar".
- So, I'm passing along the arguments and information from others to you.

Imo at least, BB -)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hello again BB,

Responding to your comments:

***The background to the time travel story***

- The destiny of the timeline is known. Plan A always worked. That led to earth's population getting off earth and colonizing another planet in another galaxy through a wormhole. Simultaneous with this, future humans using gravity helped to make the timeline happen. There was only a single timeline.
The humans and the Bulk beings in the story have no free will. This timeline must happen the way it is shown.
... I am okay (or... let's say... "comfortable" enough) with the movie playing out like this. I can concede the single timeline theory is what Thorne, Nolan, & Co. were trying to show. The way the movie plays out can certainly support the story aligning this way. Still, I find the movie MUCH more interesting by portraying the bulk beings having free will to alter their pre-existing timeline (possibly to prevent a catastrophe of their own, or perhaps they felt an importance to save their ancestors). It also makes the movie more interesting if Cooper and the other characters are making willful choices to assist in the process. Instead, what the audience is shown is simply a "pre-recorded" cassette tape of the events that already occurred, and we are just under the illusion that it's present and new when, in fact, there was no free will and everything was set in stone. While this concept might make the movie more "scientifically accurate", it does so at the cost of impeding the storytelling IMO. Viewing the movie under this intended model brings down my rating from a 9/10 to an 8/10.

*** The chronology of the timeline ***
- About 48 years before the movie starts, the Bulk beings created an artificial wormhole which had an entrance near Saturn.

... Yes! That's one thing that is quite fascinating about the whole movie. The wormhole itself was one of THE FIRST things that happens in the story (although it's discovered later). If the movie follows the "Time Traveler's Wife" principal that nothing can go back in time prior to the moment in time the time machine was created, it also works since it has been speculated that wormholes themselves can allow time travel into the past. So even if the bulk beings can only travel back to the point where they mutated, the wormhole device can allow them to go back even farther (such as Cooper's time here on earth).

- The Bulk beings then created gravitational anomalies in the upper atmosphere. This led to Cooper's crash.

... Yes again! Originally, I didn't see this as being the bulk beings INTENT. I initially thought Cooper's crash was an accidental by-product of the gravitational anomalies that were occurring. Such as the flying drone or the tractor, etc. I now believe (thanks to TRinzler) the crash was 100% premeditated and intentionally caused by the bulk beings to ensure Cooper becomes a farmer instead of continuing on as an astronaut.

That resulted in Cooper becoming a farmer and having a close relationship with his daughter Murph.

... Yes.

- The Bulk beings created the bulk area in a large black hole which was focused on every event which happened in Murph's bedroom.
This resulted in gravitational anomalies around Cooper's house.
It brought the drone near the house.
An automated harvest machine ended up steering itself to the house.

... Yes, yes, yes. Agree, agree, agree.

- Murph noticed that objects in her bedroom are moving, a model of a NASA lander and books.
This is being done by Cooper while he is outside of time while in the bulk in the black hole.

... Yes & Yes AGAIN!! This part I have NO problem with! That's exactly WHY older Murphy comes to the realization "It was you all the time!" (meaning she came to realize it was her dad all this time... even as a young child seeing those "ghosts" popping out books, her toy model, and including figuring out a message from her dad to S-T-A-Y).

- Cooper goes into space and eventually gets to the black hole with TARS.
He enters the bulk, an artificial section of the black hole where the Bulk beings have designed a time machine where gravity can affect every moment which occurs in Murph's room.

... NO, and Yes!!! I like how you casually left out the events that led Cooper going into space in the first place :-) Since we are now talking about watching ONE timeline, I can agree what we are seeing is the manufactured loop of Cooper giving himself the NASA coordinates which leads him to go into space. It is STILL "chicken or the egg" or a "predestination" paradox. Although it's not a technical paradox because everything is still "explained" (even though the loop really isn't).

Cooper then uses the time machine which alters the gravity in Murph's room to send messages.
- Cooper is eventually able to send the older Murph a code using the hand of her watch which gives the information from inside the black hole which allows Murph to complete the anti-gravity equation.
- Murph's equation is used to lift off space stations from earth which have (as far as I know) all of earth's population.
The equation is used to move the space stations nearby Saturn where the entrance to the wormhole is located.
- Humanity's space stations will travel in the wormhole to a planet in another galaxy where humans can build a new civilization.
- This human civilization will eventually evolve to become the Bulk beings.
- The Bulk beings will be compelled (they have no free will about this) to do all the actions which make this timeline possible.

... Yes. I agree with all of this as it's shown. I'm 100% okay with Cooper giving his daughter the morse code answer to gravity's equation. I'm 100% *NOT* okay with Cooper being the *SOURCE* of giving himself the NASA coordinates. Yeah, yeah... it was technically TARS that was the source but IMO neither TARS nor Cooper can be the source to give the information of the NASA coordinates. I can 100% agree the beings in the bulk can exist in "one big time blob" since time doesn't apply to THEM. But linear time still applies to Murphy and the human Cooper that went on the journey in the first place. The problem I don't think you are seeing is that Cooper was captured inside the black hole and subsequently saved inside the tesseract and teleported to the back of Murphy's room. Seconds & Minutes before this happened though... he was still his original human self exploring the galaxy and falling into a deadly gravitational pull towards Gargantua's singularity. THIS IS THE POINT WHERE "THEY" GRAB AND SAVE HIM! HE DOESN'T GO INSIDE THE TESSERACT IF HE'S NOT INSIDE THE BLACK HOLE. THEY CANNOT CAPTURE HIM UNLESS HE DOESN'T GIVE HIMSELF THE COORDINATES IN THE FIRST PLACE. BUT WAIT... HE CAN ONLY GIVE HIMSELF THE COORDINATES WHILE INSIDE THE TESSERACT. Do you see what I mean?

Otherwise, there would be no need for the bulk beings to place the wormhole, or to interfere with Cooper, or to make him give his daughter the gravitational answer (since she would have simply discovered it on her own without him... since Plan A always worked).

... I disagree. Considering the amount of years older Brand tried to solve the gravitational equation with zero success, it is *highly* unlikely that Murphy would simply have "discovered it on her own without him". They absolutely needed the gravitational data - a mystery that only being inside the black hole can solve. Murphy (like elder Brand) would have never solved the equation without the help from TARS's data.

* That's what I conclude from all the fans of the movie who've discussed it, as well as the film itself, what the film makers have said, the science behind the film and scientists who've commented about it or about similar kinds of time travel.

Again, I recommend checking out "Time Traveler's Wife".
And I'm also waiting for "Arrival".

... Sometime soon I will make an effort to check out "Time Traveler's Wife". I also think you should check out "Predestination". From our conversations alone, I can safely say that movie is right up your alley. The first 15-20 minutes comes across like some kind of "B" movie, but stick with it. As the movie progresses it starts to get better and better, and once you're hooked the movie doesn't let go. I wouldn't say it's near as good as our "Top 10" movies, but I'm sure you will be glad you saw it.

So while Interstellar may have done so many things right... in terms of keeping to the "single timeline" theorem and also preventing "Grandfather" & "Bootstrap" paradoxes, it does so at the cost of manufacturing a continuous "chicken or the egg" predestination loop (that would have otherwise never existed) and also at the cost of diminishing the power, decisions, and motives of the characters shown within. I guess I can choose to fit my own personal notion... where the movie "teeters" on multiple timelines but does so in a way where things are resolved as if it was only one timeline. This would make for a more interesting story for me. But it sounds like this is not what Thorne & Nolan intended.

Regardless, the Cooper giving himself the NASA coordinates is *STILL* a big issue because he is captured in the black hole in the first place - a journey he doesn't go on unless he discovers NASA somehow.

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi again; I wanted to post this quickly since there was some confusion about who quoted who in one of our comments.

You actually wrote this previously and I quoted it.

Otherwise, there would be no need for the bulk beings to place the wormhole, or to interfere with Cooper, or to make him give his daughter the gravitational answer (since she would have simply discovered it on her own without him... since Plan A always worked).

I confess I didn't directly answer this previously and I just quoted from the review of "The Time Traveler's Wife".

- Here is your most recent comment to me about this.

"... I disagree. Considering the amount of years older Brand tried to solve the gravitational equation with zero success, it is *highly* unlikely that Murphy would simply have "discovered it on her own without him". They absolutely needed the gravitational data - a mystery that only being inside the black hole can solve. Murphy (like elder Brand) would have never solved the equation without the help from TARS's data."

Again sorry I was not more clear before about this.
* Here is my view about it;

1. I agree with you that hypothetically it is very unlikely for Murph to discover the formula on her own. Again sorry I did not tell you that in my previous post.
2. Still, it is impossible for the timeline to have Murph be left with trying to discover the answer for the equation on her own.
- She always gets the information from Bulk Cooper in the tesseract in this timeline because the timeline is set in stone.
Neither of them have free will to change things with this crucial event in this timeline.

"The problem I don't think you are seeing is that Cooper was captured inside the black hole and subsequently saved inside the tesseract and teleported to the back of Murphy's room."

I wanted to move this up towards the top of my comment because it has been a difference between us.
- Imo Bulk Cooper in the tesseract is not transported out of it.
He sees all of Murph's history in her room but that is like a television transmission or web feed. The tesseract is projecting images to him.
- Secondly, when Bulk Cooper is pushing images of books in the tesseract, he stays in the tesseract.
What happens imo is that there is a force of gravity which goes from the tesseract and moves something in Murph's room.
- So, Bulk Cooper moves the image of a book in the tesseract (and he views the transmission of what is happening in the room), then a beam of gravity waves goes from the tesseract back in time and moves that book.
- Do you see what I'm getting at?

If not, let me use a real world example which might help.
- If we were connected by web cams, then we could see images of each other on our computers. (I often do video calls with my wife.)
It would not mean that when we saw each other, we were in the same room. We are just seeing images of each other.
- Second, let's say that you had an online printer which had a web address which worked as a fax machine.
I could fax you documents which would print in your room and I could watch the faxes as they printed in your room.
* So I could see you in your room. And I could make something happen in your room and I could see it when it happened.
- But I'm doing it by remote control.

* That imo is what is happening with Bulk Cooper in the tesseract. He is seeing things and doing things in Murph's room by remote control but back in time.

" I find the movie MUCH more interesting"

Viewers can come up with personal interpretations.

"Instead, what the audience is shown is simply a "pre-recorded" cassette tape of the events that already occurred, and we are just under the illusion that it's present and new when, in fact, there was no free will and everything was set in stone."

Yes. That's what the hard core fans I've spoken to, the film makers, the scientists involved (and scientists who write about this kind of time travel) seem to be saying about this kind of time travel.

"While this concept might make the movie more "scientifically accurate", it does so at the cost of impeding the storytelling IMO. Viewing the movie under this intended model brings down my rating from a 9/10 to an 8/10."

Oddly enough, because of your discussion with TRinzler about the crash, my enjoyment for this movie increased, especially with the beginning.

"So even if the bulk beings can only travel back to the point where they mutated, the wormhole device can allow them to go back even farther (such as Cooper's time here on earth)."

Agreed.

"older Murphy comes to the realization "It was you all the time!"...
"That's exactly WHY older Murphy comes to the realization "It was you all the time!" (meaning she came to realize it was her dad all this time... even as a young child seeing those "ghosts" popping out books"

This is a crucial message from the film makers imo.
Murph saying "It was you all the time!" or there never was a time in most of her life when Bulk Cooper was not sending information into Murph's room.
- This indicates that Bulk Cooper sending information to Murph's room is baked into this timeline. (And there is only one timeline.)
It must always happen. There is no free will for it not to happen.

"I like how you casually left out the events that led Cooper going into space in the first place :-)"

Everything that is needed to get Cooper to the tesseract and communicate with Murph is absolutely necessary for the timeline and must happen.
But there are details of dialogue with the characters which are not crucial to the timeline in the time travel story.
So, I didn't feel the need to write about those kinds of details.

"Since we are now talking about watching ONE timeline, I can agree what we are seeing is the manufactured loop of Cooper giving himself the NASA coordinates which leads him to go into space. It is STILL "chicken or the egg" or a "predestination" paradox. Although it's not a technical paradox because everything is still "explained" (even though the loop really isn't)."

The viewer can label odd things that scientists tell us.
And technically something can be called a paradox.
Still, the time travel story in "Interstellar" fits the science.
If there is anything which can be labeled hard science fiction in "Interstellar", the time travel story is it.

"But linear time still applies to Murphy and the human Cooper that went on the journey in the first place."

Cooper went on a journey to get to the tesseract.
In the tesseract Bulk Cooper is outside of time and can give himself information in the past which helps him to get to the tesseract.

"I can 100% agree the beings in the bulk can exist in "one big time blob" since time doesn't apply to THEM."

The dialogue in the movie gives the idea that Bulk Cooper has the time blob power of a Bulk being in affecting time in Murph's room.
From the film;

Cooper: What I’ve been doing for Murph, they’ve been doing for me.

What the Bulk beings can do, Bulk Cooper can do in Murph's room.
If the Bulk beings can create a time blob, it seems so can Bulk Cooper with Murph's room.

"THIS IS THE POINT WHERE "THEY" GRAB AND SAVE HIM! HE DOESN'T GO INSIDE THE TESSERACT IF HE'S NOT INSIDE THE BLACK HOLE. THEY CANNOT CAPTURE HIM UNLESS HE DOESN'T GIVE HIMSELF THE COORDINATES IN THE FIRST PLACE. BUT WAIT... HE CAN ONLY GIVE HIMSELF THE COORDINATES WHILE INSIDE THE TESSERACT. Do you see what I mean?"

Yes. But when Bulk Cooper is in the tesseract, he can give himself information in the past which later gets hm to the tesseract.
It is called a closed timelike curve.
- What can a closed timelike curve do?

Entering a closed timelike curve tomorrow means you could end up at today.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/time-travel-simulation-resolves-grandfather-paradox/

Kip Thorne has written about closed timelike curves.
https://www.its.caltech.edu/~kip/scripts/ClosedTimelikeCurves-II121.pdf

* If a time traveler is a Bulk being who is outside of time, then if the Bulk being has done something crucial for the timeline in the past, then that event has to have always happened.
Why? Because there can only be one timeline in this kind of time travel and there can be no paradoxes.

Bulk Cooper always gave Cooper in the past those coordinates.
That's what imo Murph's comment; "It was you all the time!" means at a deeper level.
The dust on the floor always was going to happen because Bulk Cooper was always outside of time sending messages to Murph's room.

From this line of thinking, it does not matter that past Cooper got to the tesseract. Once he was in it, Bulk Cooper did things which always happened in the timeline.

Again, I recommend watching "The Time Traveler's Wife".

"I also think you should check out "Predestination"."

I've seen it mentioned in discussions. I'll work on finding it.
The importance of "The Time Traveler's Wife" is that it pretty clearly shows the kind of time travel we have been discussing.

"I guess I can choose to fit my own personal notion... where the movie "teeters" on multiple timelines but does so in a way where things are resolved as if it was only one timeline."

I went down the multiple timeline interpretation path.
Then the hard core fans pointed me to the official explanation which I've been sharing with you.

"This would make for a more interesting story for me. But it sounds like this is not what Thorne & Nolan intended."

Over the years, the single timeline idea in "Interstellar" has grown on me.
It is now probably my favorite part of the overall movie in seeing how intricately the timeline works.
(My favorite section of the film is the conflict with Dr. Mann edited with Bulk Cooper communicating with older Murph.)

Maybe someday, what Thorne and the Nolans intended will appeal to you more.
Of maybe not.
Time will tell.

"Regardless, the Cooper giving himself the NASA coordinates is *STILL* a big issue because he is captured in the black hole in the first place - a journey he doesn't go on unless he discovers NASA somehow."

The science of single timeline time travel and the theoretical idea of 5th dimensional beings allows Bulk Cooper to give past Cooper the NASA coordinates.
That is in a timeline which is set in stone with no free will.
Where there are no paradoxes.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

I need to absorb some more on what you are sharing with me. I'll skim through Kip's paper on closed timeline curves, but if it's anything like the other thing I read (or the same article) most likely I will skip it (lol). I was getting a migraine trying to comprehend those diagrams!

I will definitely check out the scientificamerican / grandfather paradox article later tonight.

===

Your comment about Murphy saying "It was you all this time" may very well be VERY STRONG HINT... as if the director was trying to "yell" a hint at the audience through a critical moment of dialogue from Murphy.

But from the story (not the bulk hint, just the story) of Interstellar, what it means to me is that she came to realize that EVERYTHING she experienced in that bedroom... as a young girl... EVERY time something moved... EVERY time something fell... EVERY time this binary or morse code sequence appeared... she likely had daddy trying to give her information when they first moved there up until when she moved out (and returned as older Murph). While younger Murph was very intelligent, older Murph is even more intelligent (and more wise).

BB... I do understand how the loop is set in stone. I do "get" how Cooper must send his older self the coordinates to make sure he finds NASA to go on the mission to bring TARS in the black hole and solve gravity's equation. I enjoyed your "faxing" analogy, and also your "video-conferencing" analogy. I even closed my eyes and tried to imagine Cooper actually being in the black hole... doing things in the tesseract (which indirectly connects to Murphy's room in the past). But unfortunately, the mechanics of Cooper being stuck in the black hole doing these things is really no different than Cooper physically being teleported back in time to Murphy's bedroom.

Although you tried so hard (and I thank you very much for trying), the main issue I was trying to grasp was perspective. There is a loop that is established once Cooper gives himself the coordinates. While that is happening, Cooper is doing all the ghostly stuff in Murphy's room (and Murph is noticing) and when Cooper comes in from that dust storm he sees the dust pile patterns (given to him from himself). He needs those coordinates so he can find NASA and go on his mission.

Please stay with me on this though...

HUMAN Cooper is STILL HUMAN and is traveling on a LINEAR TIMELINE. His plane crashes, and he's no longer with NASA (I'm good with that). He raises Murph on a farm (I'm good with that). The tesseract is now on the farm, causing anomalies with the drone and the tractor (I'm good with that). Cooper has been busy at night spooking out his daughter with gravitational pushes making books and toy models fall (I'm good with that). But let's stay with HUMAN Cooper and not "bulk being" Cooper. Cooper still ages on a linear human timeline. While he is aging... getting older... and I know there can only be ONE timeline... but SOMETHING MUST HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE to cause Cooper to get trapped in a tesseract. ANY tesseract will do! Let's forget NASA and let's forget the wormhole for a moment. If human Cooper isn't finding himself inside the tesseract on his own, he is NEVER ABLE TO GIVE HIMSELF THE COORDINATES TO NASA. In this "chicken vs. the egg" argument, it is clear that Cooper entering the tesseract MUST HAPPEN FIRST. It doesn't seem possible that Cooper can magically slip inside a bulk being environment to initially give himself the coordinates (so that he eventually lands in Gargantua). The way things play out pretty much indicate Cooper must FIRST go into Gargantua and once he does that he can send himself the NASA coordinates to ensure this always happen on this single timeline. Even Cooper being stuck in the black hole and causing "flashback gravitational bounces", the bottom line is he is inside the black hole doing this... and still needed to arrive somehow.

BB... I really can't imagine this part of the movie doesn't bother you. I'm trying to understand how this loop creation works and can be (theoretically) possible with what is currently understood with phyisics. I will read the links you gave and see if they help (but somehow I doubt they will).

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi again;

"BB... I really can't imagine this part of the movie doesn't bother you."

How I get through this is;
1. I try to understand the science in a science fiction film.
And with "Interstellar" I've tried to describe what's happening with the tesseract in terms of what the movie says which is influenced by the science.
2. I've seen "The Time Traveler's Wife" and you haven't.
This lays out this single timeline concept of future people's actions being part of the past timeline very clearly.
3. I look at what "Interstellar" says about time travel.
If there is science behind a science fiction movie, I usually accept it.

"But unfortunately, the mechanics of Cooper being stuck in the black hole doing these things is really no different than Cooper physically being teleported back in time to Murphy's bedroom."

These is an important part to this imo.
- Because it gets to a sequence of thinking.
A. What are the rules of the movie? This is why I posted all the time travel quotes I could find in the film in another comment.
One rule is that time travel can only be done with gravity.

TARS: Yes it is! You've seen that time is represented here as a *physical* dimension! You've worked out that you *can* exert a force across space-time!
Cooper: Gravity. To send a message.
TARS: Affirmative.
Cooper: Gravity can cross the dimensions, including time.

Bulk Cooper can only use gravity to send a message.
- Why is that important? Because it focuses our discussion on what the movie says.
And what the film says expresses the ideas of the Nolan brothers and the input they got from Thorne.

And here's an example of it with the "It was you all this time" quote.

"Your comment about Murphy saying "It was you all this time" may very well be VERY STRONG HINT... as if the director was trying to "yell" a hint at the audience through a critical moment of dialogue from Murphy."

In this kind of film making with a part that uses the vague style, simple statements by characters can be a clue to major underlying ideas which the film makers believe.
Kubrick used this in "2001".
So did Ridley Scott with "Blade Runner".
Imo the Nolans are saying to the viewer through older Murph that Bulk Cooper from the tesseract has been operating through the timeline for most of her life in that room.

* So, I'll go through your timeline as I see it.

"His plane crashes, and he's no longer with NASA (I'm good with that)."

More to it; The Bulk beings have sent gravity anomalies to earth to get Cooper to crash so he spends more time with Murph.

"He raises Murph on a farm (I'm good with that). The tesseract is now on the farm, causing anomalies with the drone and the tractor (I'm good with that). Cooper has been busy at night spooking out his daughter with gravitational pushes making books and toy models fall (I'm good with that)."

There are two Coopers in the timeline here.
- Past Cooper lives with his daughter.
- Bulk Cooper is in the tesseract and is sending gravity signals to the house from the black hole pushing objects in Murph's room at different times in her life.

"But let's stay with HUMAN Cooper and not "bulk being" Cooper. Cooper still ages on a linear human timeline. While he is aging... getting older... and I know there can only be ONE timeline... but SOMETHING MUST HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE to cause Cooper to get trapped in a tesseract."

Of course. In the timeline Bulk Cooper sends gravity pulses to the house from the tesseract/black hole which leads Cooper to go to NASA. At NASA he's back in the space program to resettle humanity. After several obstacles, he gets to the black hole and goes into the bulk/tesseract.

"ANY tesseract will do! Let's forget NASA and let's forget the wormhole for a moment. If human Cooper isn't finding himself inside the tesseract on his own, he is NEVER ABLE TO GIVE HIMSELF THE COORDINATES TO NASA."

Past Cooper will make it to the tesseract because he is destined to.
The Bulk beings exist. That means Plan A worked.
Because in this kind of time travel there cannot be a Plan B timeline and then a Plan A timeline.
There can only be one timeline with no paradoxes.
Again, the Bulk beings exist so, Plan A worked.
Therefore past Cooper must make it to the black hole / tesseract because the universe will not allow for paradoxes.
That is set in stone. There is no free will here. He has to be successful.

"In this "chicken vs. the egg" argument, it is clear that Cooper entering the tesseract MUST HAPPEN FIRST. It doesn't seem possible that Cooper can magically slip inside a bulk being environment to initially give himself the coordinates (so that he eventually lands in Gargantua)."

There is no first or last with Bulk beings.
Cooper is a Bulk being in the tesseract. .
He says in the movie that he can do for Murph what the Bulk humans have done for him (and more of the quote, for humanity).

Cooper: They're not *beings*... they're us! What I've been doing for Murph, they're doing for me, for all of us.

It's important to pay attention to this.
This comes from the Nolans.
- Are the Bulk beings outside of time? Yes.
- Can their actions be part of the timeline in the past? Yes.
- Does Cooper become a Bulk being in the tesseract and can he be part of the timeline in Murph's room? Yes.

Now on another level you are uncomfortable with the science from Thorne, deGrasse Tyson, and the physicist who wrote "The Time Traveler's Wife" article. That is your privilege.
My view; scientists say this is possible. I go along with the scientists.

"The way things play out pretty much indicate Cooper must FIRST go into Gargantua"

First goes out the window once someone becomes a theoretical Bulk being.
The movie is saying that about them. And Cooper says he is like them regarding Murph's room in the tesseract.

"and once he does that he can send himself the NASA coordinates to ensure this always happen on this single timeline. Even Cooper being stuck in the black hole and causing "flashback gravitational bounces", the bottom line is he is inside the black hole doing this... and still needed to arrive somehow."

Obviously he arrived. But once in the tesseract he is outside of time.
Again, he says that in the movie

What I've been doing for Murph, they're doing for me, for all of us

That is a rule in the film imo from the Nolans. And Neil deGrasse Tyson goes along with it.

"I'm trying to understand how this loop creation works and can be (theoretically) possible with what is currently understood with phyisics."

- I don't think I need to understand all this complex science with all the math.
If I accept what scientists say is possible, and deGrasse Tyson says it is, then that is good enough for me.

- This time travel loop is not a flaw in "Interstellar'. The science is there. The scientists say hypothetically it's possible.
- But there are science flaws in "Interstellar". For instance Cooper's shuttle, with its tiny rockets, taking off from Miller's planet which has stronger gravity than earth and the shuttle has to overcome the gravity of a giant black hole which is causing a huge time dilation.
That sequence violates the law of gravity.

* I think you have gotten an explanation of what Bulk Cooper can do. From quotes in the film. From comments by scientists.
But what I think is happening is that you don't like this part of "Interstellar" and you don't like the science behind it.
That's fine with me but that goes beyond an explanation.
This has more to do with your feelings and no one can challenge a person's feelings.

* So, I think we are coming to the end.
I've gotten a lot out of this exchange in understanding "Interstellar" better including the science behind it.
I even like the film a little bit more.
It's been good for me.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

PS. We can talk about other movies.

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Good morning, BB.

"BB... I really can't imagine this part of the movie doesn't bother you."

How I get through this is;
2. I've seen "The Time Traveler's Wife" and you haven't.
This lays out this single timeline concept of future people's actions being part of the past timeline very clearly.
3. I look at what "Interstellar" says about time travel.
If there is science behind a science fiction movie, I usually accept it.

... I promise I will see The Time Traveler's Wife. For one, if you recommend it I'm sure I will like it. But more importantly the TYPE of time travel shown in Time Traveler's Wife should assist with me getting a better understanding of Interstellar.

TARS: Yes it is! You've seen that time is represented here as a *physical* dimension! You've worked out that you *can* exert a force across space-time!
Cooper: Gravity. To send a message.
TARS: Affirmative.
Cooper: Gravity can cross the dimensions, including time.
Bulk Cooper can only use gravity to send a message.
- Why is that important? Because it focuses our discussion on what the movie says.
And what the film says expresses the ideas of the Nolan brothers and the input they got from Thorne.

... I have no problem with Bulk Cooper using gravity to send a message to Murph across space-time. I also have no problem with Bulk Cooper sending his own self a message like "Hey, bud... it's me! Aright aright aright!" What I have a problem with is Bulk Cooper sending a self-perpetuating message that changed his history (although it doesn't really change his history since he's destined to always go to the black hole). Here's the flipside of the coin! What would happen if Cooper only sent the equation to Murph but did NOT send Murph nor his human self the coordinates to NASA? I suppose... if Cooper & Murph continued to live a long happy life together (as happy as can be on that desolate earthly wasteland), there would be no need for Murph to discover a hidden meaning with the watch. The whole reason of the watch's importance is that when Cooper gave it to her it was when they were going to be separated. He said they can compare times to see what each person's watch would say. This also brilliantly ties in to not only the importance of the watch but the equal importance of father separating from the daughter in order for the daughter to have a strong emotional-sentimental attachment to the watch!

"Your comment about Murphy saying "It was you all this time" may very well be VERY STRONG HINT... as if the director was trying to "yell" a hint at the audience through a critical moment of dialogue from Murphy."

In this kind of film making with a part that uses the vague style, simple statements by characters can be a clue to major underlying ideas which the film makers believe.
Kubrick used this in "2001".
So did Ridley Scott with "Blade Runner".
Imo the Nolans are saying to the viewer through older Murph that Bulk Cooper from the tesseract has been operating through the timeline for most of her life in that room.
... Yes. I totally get that and thought it was very cool that Cooper... during his own "time" in the tesseract was, indeed, present for most of Murphy's entire LIFE in that bedroom! Think about this for a second! Think about what the film DOESN'T show us (but could have likely happened). After father-Cooper left to NASA, Bulk Cooper is still in the tesseract, trying to comfort his daughter. He could have spent months...; even YEARS of Murphy's life behind that bookcase after Cooper left. Trying to get her to see things. He was mostly focused (initially) on getting her to convince him to STAY. But soon realized the importance of the grand scheme of things. Now the movie doesn't show him doing any shenanigans much later than that, but it is possible there was some quick moments unseen to the audience. But the key is she realizes "ALL THIS TIME" it was Cooper. And yes, perhaps it is a strong clue for the audience to see how the whole process works. By the way, can you give an example where the "hint" to the audience was given in 2001? It's been so long I'm trying to think of which one in particular you are referring to. Blade Runner definitely has some :-)

* So, I'll go through your timeline as I see it.
"His plane crashes, and he's no longer with NASA (I'm good with that)."
More to it; The Bulk beings have sent gravity anomalies to earth to get Cooper to crash so he spends more time with Murph.

... Yes. This was observed by TRinzler, and to save space I just left that part out. But that is how I view the movie now.

"He raises Murph on a farm (I'm good with that). The tesseract is now on the farm, causing anomalies with the drone and the tractor (I'm good with that). Cooper has been busy at night spooking out his daughter with gravitational pushes making books and toy models fall (I'm good with that)."

Past Cooper will make it to the tesseract because he is destined to.
The Bulk beings exist. That means Plan A worked.
Because in this kind of time travel there cannot be a Plan B timeline and then a Plan A timeline.
There can only be one timeline with no paradoxes.
Again, the Bulk beings exist so, Plan A worked.

... Seeing this movie as a single timeline, I must agree that Plan A always worked. That doesn't necessarily mean Plan B never worked though! :-)

Therefore past Cooper must make it to the black hole / tesseract because the universe will not allow for paradoxes.
That is set in stone. There is no free will here. He has to be successful.

... As I stated above... what would happen if bulk Cooper was in the tesseract and DIDN'T give himself the coordinates to NASA... that does prevent the paradox of him not being successful - which destroys the bulk beings of Plan A and all other sorts of paradoxes. I still don't think you are seeing that a LOOP as been artificially created. And without the intervention the loop that was created by bulk cooper would never have happened. Or at least not have happened like the movie shows us. I think you see things so strongly, that you may have "blinders" on to what I'm trying to talk about here (yes, I realize you have seen "Time Traveler's Wife" and I haven't).

Maybe these issues can be conveyed with the understanding of a few questions:

(1) DID the bulk-beings create wormholes and gravitational anomalies to influence the past?

(2) If so, WHY did the bulk-beings do this?

(3) WHERE was Cooper when they captured him and placed him in their tesseract? (be careful how you answer this or I'm liable to throw my computer against the wall - lol)

There is no first or last with Bulk beings. Cooper is a Bulk being in the tesseract.

... I know, I know, I know! But there *IS* a first or last with HUMANS (including HUMAN Cooper).

He says in the movie that he can do for Murph what the Bulk humans have done for him (and more of the quote, for humanity).
Cooper: They're not *beings*... they're us! What I've been doing for Murph, they're doing for me, for all of us.
It's important to pay attention to this. This comes from the Nolans.

... This was a pivotal moment of the story. At the "time" (I tend to use time in quotes while he's in the tesseract), Cooper was witnessing things from a first-person perspective. He was suffering. In pain. Agonizing over the loss of leaving his daughter because of a blatant lie from elder Brand. While in the tesseract, he could see how he could influence things with gravity. He could influence his daughter. Maybe not directly speaking to her, but still using gravity as a form of communication to get things where they need to be. Then... it suddenly dawned on him. "What I've been doing for my daughter, THEY have been doing for me! For all of us!" He suddenly realized the possibility of the gravitational anomalies HE experienced (such as his plane crash, the drone, and the tractor on the farm). And then, he suddenly realized the possibility of the wormhole itself... along with unseen anomalies on other people unbeknownst to them very well all could have had a role in the bulk-beings giving humanity a "nudge".

Okay, so here is where my commentary gets weird... So I guess this means the answer to question #1 above is "YES", right? So... the more important question now because Question #2... WHY?

Now on another level you are uncomfortable with the science from Thorne, deGrasse Tyson, and the physicist who wrote "The Time Traveler's Wife" article. That is your privilege. My view; scientists say this is possible. I go along with the scientists.

... I am more than happy to go along with the scientists. That is the whole reason why we are having this very lengthily discussion in the first place. I cannot go along with this notion just because "they said so". I need to see it. Visualize it. And understand it before I can accept it. Let's say you tried to convince me that 3 + 1 = 4. But I don't see how the number 3 exists. I only see 1's, 2's, 0's, and 4's. I can see 2 + 2 = 4. I can see 4 + 0 = 4. And while I realize 1 DOES exist I cannot see what mystery thing is combined with 1 to equal 4. But I *can* see that 2 - 1 = 1, and somehow... someway... maybe I can start to understand that missing part must add with 2 to equate to SOMETHING that yields the number 4. This is kind of where I'm at. I'm trying to accept this time loop, but can only seem to accept it if there are multiple timelines and once the loop is created it's now set in stone. But even with this lack of understanding, it still doesn't discount the very basic argument of #3 above... WHERE did they grab Cooper?

"The way things play out pretty much indicate Cooper must FIRST go into Gargantua"
"First" goes out the window once someone becomes a theoretical Bulk being.
The movie is saying that about them. And Cooper says he is like them regarding Murph's room in the tesseract.

... I agree first goes out the window when someone becomes a bulk being. I don't have issue with Cooper as a bulk being. I have issue with HUMAN Cooper getting to NASA and subsequently being captured inside the tesseract so that he can become a bulk-being in the first place (I can say "first" place because I'm still referring to human Cooper milliseconds before the transformation happens).

Obviously he arrived. But once in the tesseract he is outside of time.
Again, he says that in the movie
What I've been doing for Murph, they're doing for me, for all of us

That is a rule in the film imo from the Nolans. And Neil deGrasse Tyson goes along with it.
... I'm totally good with what Cooper is doing for Murph. I'm also okay with what the Bulk Beings are doing for Cooper. I'm NOT okay with what Cooper is doing for Cooper!!!!!!! (knocking head against table).

"I'm trying to understand how this loop creation works and can be (theoretically) possible with what is currently understood with phyisics."
- I don't think I need to understand all this complex science with all the math.
If I accept what scientists say is possible, and deGrasse Tyson says it is, then that is good enough for me.

... I don't necessarily need to understand the complex mathematical equations. I just need to internalize a huge piece of this so the lightbulb can go on and I can VISUALIZE how it all works so that it IS possible. TRinzler's comment about Cooper first having a career with NASA was a huge "light bulb" moment for me, because it led to the possibility of another timeline where he COULD have gone to NASA (and knowing their coordinates later on during the dust bowl), and even possibly being part of the Lazarus missions (where he could very well have been captured in a tesseract to give himself the coordinates on a different timeline where he IS with Murph... and THAT Cooper is who goes to Gargantua with Tars to retrieve the gravitational equation... and HE relays the answer to Murph and also realizes he must also give himself the same coordinates to NASA. But (alas)... since we are only talking about ONE timeline this notion cannot work (sigh), so I'm still at a stand still with Cooper giving Cooper the coordinates.

- This time travel loop is not a flaw in "Interstellar'. The science is there. The scientists say hypothetically it's possible.
- But there are science flaws in "Interstellar". For instance Cooper's shuttle, with its tiny rockets, taking off from Miller's planet which has stronger gravity than earth and the shuttle has to overcome the gravity of a giant black hole which is causing a huge time dilation.
That sequence violates the law of gravity.

... You know, that is a very good point. Look at the amount of rocket fuel that is required to jettison off earth's gravity. They even commented what a struggle it was to walk on Miller's watery planet - something like 130% of earth's gravity, right? Yet a tiny plane/space craft hybrid can escape watery planet's stronger gravity with ease (lol). This is probably not a minor issue - considering how closely true the film keeps to science. But leaving the planet was not a major plot device. Cooper giving himself the coordinates to NASA was, indeed, a VERY IMPORTANT plot device. So I'm much more critical of that than I am with the former.

* I think you have gotten an explanation of what Bulk Cooper can do. From quotes in the film. From comments by scientists.
But what I think is happening is that you don't like this part of "Interstellar" and you don't like the science behind it.
That's fine with me but that goes beyond an explanation.
This has more to do with your feelings and no one can challenge a person's feelings.
... It's not that I don't "like" the science behind it. It's that I don't "see" the science behind it. Once I can see that 3 + 1 = 4, I will be much happier. I just need to understand the logic of it all. I can fully grasp (in a multiple timeline situation) where a loop can be created and that is the NEW official timeline (now the loop was "always" there), but I can only see things working that way as a multiple timeline environment. I think we can both agree the bulk beings DID influence a LOT of mankind here on earth. But WHY????? If they always existed, they wouldn't need to intervene in the past to ensure their existence. Because once they started to cease existing... going back in time to ENSURE they don't die off is now sounding like multiple timelines - which is a scenario I seem to be more "comfortable" with (because it makes more logical sense).

* So, I think we are coming to the end.
I've gotten a lot out of this exchange in understanding "Interstellar" better including the science behind it.
I even like the film a little bit more. It's been good for me.
PS. We can talk about other movies.

... I'm glad this has been a win-win for you as well. Interstellar is still a FANTASTIC movie. Even with its flaws (escaping Miller's planet, the ease of blight being taken away on the space stations, etc.) this was still an amazing journey from start to finish. I'm still incredibly frustrated with Cooper giving himself the coordinates. Normally, that aspect would be such an awesome-cool twist but the more I think about it the more it bothers me and the more frustrated I get. Yet, I'm still mature enough to accept that my way of thinking could be wrong, and not the movie itself. The reason why I say this is because I'm fully aware of the tedious efforts of the Nolan Brothers along side with Kip Thorne, and since this was a MAJOR plot twist-reveal, something tells me there is probably nothing wrong with it (even though I'm stubborn and say there is).

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi again; a brief summary

1. The time travel portion of "Interstellar" is the only part of it which is hard science fiction.
That means the time travel story thread follows science and therefore the scientists tell us how this kind of time travel works and the viewer can then apply the science rules to the movie.

2. In this kind of time travel, there can only be ONE timeline.
And this ONE timeline must have NO paradoxes like killing ancestors, grandfather, or saving people in the past who died.
- I've given you quotes / articles from scientists which state this.
* That is one rule in this movie for the time travel story thread.

"Seeing this movie as a single timeline, I must agree that Plan A always worked. That doesn't necessarily mean Plan B never worked though! :-)"

"I can fully grasp (in a multiple timeline situation)"

"I'm trying to accept this time loop, but can only seem to accept it if there are multiple timelines"

Multiple timelines is a personal interpretation for the viewer which is fine.

But officially the time travel story follows the science (Thorne) which in this case means only one timeline is possible.

3. The Bulk beings are descendants of humanity on earth.
- Plan A is the timeline in the film. There is only one timeline so Plan A always worked.
- Plan A gets humanity to a planet in another galaxy.
- In another galaxy humanity develops and becomes the Bulk beings.
- The Bulk beings must intervene in the past on earth or they don't exist (a paradox which is not allowed in this kind of time travel).

"bulk beings... If they always existed, they wouldn't need to intervene in the past to ensure their existence."

- The Bulk beings came from "us", humanity. They are evolved humans.
- So, the Bulk beings must intervene or they don't exist.
They have no free will. They are the end of the timeline which is set in stone.

I suggest again checking out the time travel quotes from the movie which I posted.
All of them are important for this time travel story thread.
A simple statement by Cooper which I posted before;

Cooper: They're not *beings*... they're us!

Those simple words have huge implications for the time travel story.

"(1) DID the bulk-beings create wormholes and gravitational anomalies to influence the past?

(2) If so, WHY did the bulk-beings do this?"

"we can both agree the bulk beings DID influence a LOT of mankind here on earth. But WHY?????"

Again, the Bulk beings have no free will about this.
They must intervene or they will not exist.
That would be a paradox which is not allowed.
So, they always intervene.

"What would happen if Cooper only sent the equation to Murph but did NOT send Murph nor his human self the coordinates to NASA?...'
"what would happen if bulk Cooper was in the tesseract and DIDN'T give himself the coordinates to NASA..."
"without the intervention the loop that was created by bulk cooper would never have happened."
"the possibility of another timeline where he COULD have gone to NASA"

There is one time travel timeline according to the science.
The time travel timeline is set in stone. It must happen. There is no free will about this.

"(3) WHERE was Cooper when they captured him and placed him in their tesseract? (be careful how you answer this or I'm liable to throw my computer against the wall - lol)"

The Bulk beings have full control of gravity.
Cooper was in the black hole and the Bulk beings could put him where ever they wanted in the black hole.

"... I know, I know, I know! But there *IS* a first or last with HUMANS (including HUMAN Cooper).

I don't have issue with Cooper as a bulk being. I have issue with HUMAN Cooper getting to NASA and subsequently being captured inside the tesseract so that he can become a bulk-being in the first place (I can say "first" place because I'm still referring to human Cooper milliseconds before the transformation happens)."

The Bulk beings were also HUMANS at one time.
- HUMANS become Bulk beings and are able to fold time back on itself in a blob.

And I've mentioned closed timelike curves several times.

Entering a closed timelike curve tomorrow means you could end up at today.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/time-travel-simulation-resolves-grandfather-paradox/

"But leaving the planet was not a major plot device."

It was a major event in the timeline.
If they don't take off, the entire timeline collapses in multiple paradoxes.
And this event has little connection to science. It's just a magical plot device.

"I cannot go along with this notion just because "they said so". I need to see it. Visualize it."

"Even with its flaws (escaping Miller's planet, the ease of blight being taken away on the space stations, etc.)"

Sure. But that's not about explanations. The time loops have been explained. The time blobs have been explained.
The multiple non scientific events in the film you can visualize so you accept them.
The multiple illogical events in the movie you also can visualize so you accept those.
- But the part of the movie which most closely follows science, you reject it because it's weird and you can't visualize it.

I get it. That's not about an explanation. This is about what feels right to you.
- It depends on what lens or what source we begin with when we evaluate a movie.
Is it in feeling? Is it logic?
- What is our starting point?
With an emotional story we begin with feeling.
When trying to figure out hard science fiction we begin with information from scientists.

Where you begin and what you decide comes down to you of course which is your privilege.

"By the way, can you give an example where the "hint" to the audience was given in 2001?"

I think we should finish with "Interstellar" before we dive into "2001".
Once we get to that point we can start a thread on the "2001" Board.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] TRinzler 8 years ago

What the movie has done was intentionally create a "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" paradox.

No, it hasn't. You've just not thought through the implications of the "bulk" and the Tesseract and what they mean about causality. The 5th dimension exists outside time ergo there is no causality to be violated.

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[–] shelliiaae 8 years ago

EyeInSky ...I was reading your question to BB, and watching you go back and forth with a bit of frustration, haha because I totally understood what you mean, but I think, BB with all due respect, was over thinking what you were asking..maybe you two have solved this already, but if not, maybe BB will see this from a different persons POV and understand the question you posed, and please correct me Eye, if this isn't your question...

So, to dumb this down for someone like myself...I believe what Eye was asking is simply this... discard any "rules/laws" that this movie world goes by. Simply put, it comes down to this ...Okay, so Cooper sees the dust, and does his thing with NASA...the question is how could Cooper have left himself a message before he ever went into space and did all of this? What we are to believe is the Cooper we follow throughout the movie is Cooper in real time AS THINGS HAPPEN, think of Cooper as yourself ok? You...RIGHT NOW, in 2016... You see the dust...you go to NASA etc etc. so the question comes down to...HOW could YOU right now, today have see the dust message the FIRST TIME you or any version of you had ever been there to have left it?? How could the advanced humans have "guided" Cooper through all this, if he had NOT YET found the answer to save them? Obviously its the chicken/egg issue, but Cooper is the reason the advanced humans ever make it to "being advanced" ...so obviously Cooper is our egg/chicken regardless of which came first...in this situation, COOPER going through this experience came first. The only way this can make sense if you ask me is very simple..the Cooper we are watching isn't #1...he can't be because he's essentially just chasing his own tail, it's, Cooper is born > lives his life > goes through the events of the movie > dies > next Cooper in whatever reality is supposed to exist begins his journey at birth...and it starts over so the question remains...there HAD to be a point in time in which the "tail chasing" began, and THAT is Eyes question...think of it as that, a cosmic tail chasing session, well ...he/she is asking this...the FIRST moment the tail chasing began was when Cooper (in ANY REALITY/TIME, doesn't matter) saw that dust ...who left the dust message the VERY FIRST TIME the tail chase began?? There had to have been a first time, right? So how could that even be possible?

My only theories are:

1) The timeline we are watching is NOT the beginning of this loop (most logical)

2) It just isn't supposed to make sense for whatever reason..

3) The advanced humans are NOT a direct result of what Cooper did to save us, because again...HOW could they have ever existed to set this all in motion BEFORE the very first time Cooper ever did this? This is kind of like the grandfather paradox, how could they "send him back" when he had never done this yet for them even exist!?

One thing that keeps bugging me though...if this is some type of cosmic tail chase...stuck in a time loop...where/when does it end??? If this is something that just keeps happening, then when does it ever end and time continue to unravel normally? The argument of there being all these Coopers that save themselves kind of leads us to believe this cycle just never ends??? At what point is the reset button hit? if there is no "reset" button and time just continues on...then everything we have talked about ..wouldn't it be wrong, and kind of pointless? Or is it that this event, like any event will exist in a self contained loop in its own little spot in the multiverse, as an infinite number of other loops from other times go on in their own space? How do you guys see that?? Do you see it as "ok he saved everyone, fixed the issue, now this story goes away and life just goes on now"? or will this loop go on, and on, and on?? I'd like to believe the first one!!! but if that's the case, it doesn't make sense...the purpose to sending Cooper back is so humanity survives...but it did survive because THEY are sending him back lol ...do they have to keep doing this over and over again to in a sense keep the pillars of existence up? Ugh, I just confuse myself with it all.

I'm not as deep of a thinker as you two, so if any of these just doesn't make sense to you guys, don't worry lol it's likely that i couldnt even word my thoughts correctly.

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hi Shellilea,

Glad you watched Interstellar! Perhaps this is the 2nd (or 3rd+) viewing, or perhaps you saw it in the theater years ago but remember this "nibbling" issue that most people (myself included) couldn't quite make sense with. After bantering back and forth, I think I have finally solved this riddle. But unfortunately... in the process of solving the TRUE paradox in order to do so the film allows for a pseudo-paradox in place of it. In either case, the answer is impossible. It's just that the filmmakers have chosen to construct their movie so that it follows quantum physics (and follows the "rules" that scientists currently agree on), but does so at the cost of making the decision making process of Cooper inferior since we (as the audience) are forced to watch Cooper now caught in the "endless loop" of events versus making real definitive choices that matter.

So in short, the correct answer to Interstellar is your "Option #1", but I can elaborate more on this further. Modern physics currently accepts the notion that if time travel is possible, it must work so that the time traveler stays in ONE timeline. So gone are the days of "Back to the Future", where one choice in the past creates "alternate / parallel futures". Life is pretty much like a "recorded record", but physics is allowing the theoretical possibility of a time traveler going back in time to observe... study... and possibly have VERY MINOR interactions that don't disrupt the "set in stone" decisions that people will make. The idea is that "mother nature" will simply not allow such paradoxes to occur.

Please take about 5 minutes (or more - lol), and carefully study the 3 billiard table diagrams:

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/78749/bootstrap-paradox-in-interstellar/78787#78787

These diagrams are actually a VERY FUN imaginary study... "Eight ball in the corner WORMHOLE". It's one thing if the pool table ball goes into the "wormhole" and then suddenly returns back out from a different corner. But with this diagram a situation is created where the ball goes BACK IN TIME - such that the specific distance (and time) that it comes out from the exit hole, the ball actually interacts with itself!

In Diagram #1, the ball exits out in the past and knocks the original ball out of the way. Ironically, the ball would have only come out in the first place if the original shot was successful. But if the ball comes out and knocks the other out of the way we have a true grandfather paradox (an impossible situation). This would be like Cooper going back in time and PREVENTING himself from making the journey. Also think of this as 1 ball comes out but zero balls go in (1 divided by zero can't happen).

In Diagram #2, the ball exits out in the past, but only delivers a GLANCING blow of the original ball... still causing it to (barely) sink in. Since the ball's exit still allows for the ball to enter in the first place we have a LEGAL INTERACTION between the ball and itself. This would be like Cooper going back in time and going out for coffee with his "younger self", but only having lighthearted discussion and nothing overt that could impact meaningful choices. This would be like Bruce Willis going out to breakfast with his younger self in Looper. Also think of this as 1 ball goes in and 1 ball comes out (1 divided by 1 is mathematically okay).

In Diagram #3, the ball was never going to the pocket in the first place! But... due to some weird freaking strange anomaly THAT CAN'T BE EXPLAINED it's own ball from the past moves along and knocks the ball (which wasn't going in) in such a way so that it does go in the pocket. This situation is EXACTLY what happens in Interstellar (and the diagram even admits this). Since the ball goes into the pocket, it successfully returns out the exit and knocks itself back in again. So we are seeing a loop of something that originally could never happen but but mysteriously does because of some unexplainable circumstance! The reason why it is not a true paradox is because (technically) the time travel loop is explainable. If the ball comes out from a previous time somehow, there must be a successful hit into the wormhole pocket (which actually does happen in Diagram 3). Also think of this as zero successful shots made but 1 ball still coming out (zero divided by 1 is mathematically okay). So while it doesn't exactly explain the force that caused this weirdness to happen, there at least is not a paradox involved. I guess in order to resolve something unexplainable you have to inject something different that is unexplainable. But at least I do think Nolan attempted to suggest at something with the NASA plane crash.

Since the movie avoids true physical paradoxes, instead we are faced with watching a meaningless Cooper making predestined choices he was always going to make. Originally he was likely not going to have a close relationship with his daughter, but was likely going to have a career with NASA (the 3rd diagram of billiards showing the ball going to the side rail). But "they" create gravitational anomalies (which is totally fine by the rules of interacting with the past since it's only gravity) and the anomaly causes EITHER Cooper to go inside the tesseract OR it creates a situation where Cooper goes to NASA so that he goes inside the tesseract in the first place. At this point we are witnessing a "chicken or egg" situation. but "chicken & egg" is a philosophical question, and not a paradox. If it was, that would mean chickens and eggs should not exist here on earth as we know it, right? Interstellar brings us the similar philisophical question with what came first... Cooper seeing the dust piles (and going to NASA), or Cooper going into the tesseract so he could give himself the dust piles. In a single timeline situation, we just have a loop of where BOTH must happen or else there is a paradox. The audience is, unfortunately, not aware to what "kickstarted" the whole thing (like the billiard ball was still hit by a cue stick).

One can assume that Cooper WAS on an original course with a career with NASA... but his PLANE CRASHED DUE TO GRAVITATIONAL ANOMALIES! This whole plot element completely escaped me the first few times in watching Interstellar, but I now am under the firm belief these were INTENTIONALLY made to happen by "they" so that Cooper does NOT follow his original course but instead stays home on the farm to develop a close relationship with his daughter.

So while Interstellar was a spectacular amazing watch... it's a double edged sword for me. On the plus side, the movie ambitiously tries very hard (and achieves) some true elements of scientific accuracy while also giving the audience a fantastic mystery element to ponder on. But on the negative side, all the audience is watching is a "pre-recorded cassette tape" of the events that were always destined to take place. There is no true "free will". All of the choices we see were choices they were always going to make. This diminishes the movie-going experience for the sake of keeping true to physics. In the end, there is no "first time". That would be the case with multiple timelines, but once the anomalies stop everything is "locked in place". Even the anomalies themselves are "locked in place".

It's like asking what caused the "Big Bang"? Where was the universe BEFORE the "Big Bang" occurred?

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

TRinzler...

If you could please take a quick look at this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eavROfq-ouo

I'm mostly interested in your thoughts between the 6:00 and 10:45 minute mark. This one talks mostly about the "Grandfather Paradox", but the video actually shows the "Billiard Table" example (please also see "Eight Ball in the Corner Wormhole" article below):

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/78749/bootstrap-paradox-in-interstellar/78787#78787

... Now, let's take the VERY TOP example (the Grandfather Paradox). It's a fun diagram to imagine, but basically what it means is if you make a successful shot (and only a successful shot) the same ball will start to appear during it's movement towards the corner but it will *CAUSE* (that dastardly causality word) a physical impact deflecting the ball away. The ball never making the shot means it actually did make the shot (which is a paradox).

Now please stay with me here (I'm sure you have, but I'm trying to get you to see things how I see them - accurate or not)...

... Now, let's place the wormhole pocket at the opposite-BACK corner so that when the ball reappears in the past it follows a straight line impacting the ball so it knocks the ball in! In this fashion, we have solved the "Grandfather Paradox", but we have created two things:

(1) We now have a "loop" of where a ball comes out of the wormhole past pocket to knock it's own ball in a present tense wormhole pocket. Because the ball successfully makes it inside the pocket, we no longer have a paradox but we DO HAVE A LOOP that was created.

(2) How was this loop created? Well... ORIGINALLY WE USED A CUE-STICK to set the ball in motion, right? By using a cue stick to knock the ball inside the present wormhole pocket the same ball reappears on the same-trajectory rear pocket in the past to (also) knock itself in. The ball goes in now regardless if it's because of my cue stick or itself entering into the past but NOTHING happens unless I *cause* things to happen with my cue stick to begin with.

===

Let's assume I am WITH you on your notion the "bulk beings". This also includes Cooper, but only during the "time frame" (bad word, I know) he's inside the tesseract. While Cooper is inside the tesseract, the "illusion of time" is lifted BUT JUST FOR THE VERSION OF HIM WHILE INSIDE THE TESSERACT AND NOT THE CURRENT TIME-FRAME VERSION OF HIM OUTSIDE THE TESSERACT. At this point he can transverse to ANY segment of observable time he wants. The "consistency principal" is in place because he cannot physically touch things (although his anger-management gravity did knock over some books, so go figure). So while Cooper (the person who traveled to the black hole) and the bulk beings (whom we don't see) are OUTSIDE of time THERE STILL IS A TIME-FRAME OF MURPHY, FATHER COOPER, THE INANIMATE OBJECTS, ETC. INSIDE THE DAUGHTER'S ROOM. The movie makes it clear the 2 Coopers are SEPARATE PEOPLE. Otherwise, both coopers would "see and think" what the other sees at that given moment.

Because of the way the 4th dimension (time) and 5th dimension (gravity) was handled, I can probably agree the way Nolan & Kipp handled the passing of information solves both the Grandfather Paradox and the Bootstrap Paradox. I can even go a step further and say there is probably no "Predestination Paradox" either (in fact, I think I read there really is no such thing as a predestination PARADOX per se). So perhaps using the term "paradox" was bad on my part. But I stand my ground that it is completely ILLOGICAL. Nolan & Co., purposely showing Cooper giving himself the NASA coordinates (when him finding NASA by other means) was at first a cool "a - haaa this is amazing" moment but the more I think about it the more & more it bothers me.

HIm being able to pass himself irrelevant information via gravity (because the Cooper inside the tesseract exists "outside of time") is all fine and dandy. However, him passing himself RELEVANT information so that he finds NASA is like the billiard table above... where a ball appears back into the past to knock itself in the hole. But originally, IT WAS THE CUE STICK that knocked the ball inside in the first place before it became the loop of the ball hitting itself.

What the movie shows is Cooper giving the NASA coordinates to himself. So while there may not be a "paradox" in this, it's an illogical peculiarity that makes absolutely no sense. It would make complete sense if Cooper was still able to find NASA by other means (i.e., a cue STICK on the billiard table). And once he visits Gargantua and the Tesseract I'm totally good with him ensuring he takes the trip by (also) giving himself the NASA coordinates as backup (to make sure he goes).

But the implications of simply watching a "loop" where there is no "causality" is not good from a movie perspective. As the audience, we bond with the lead character is is PROACTIVE in making decisions that influence and impact the outcome of himself and his surroundings. Instead, we are watching a PASSIVE character going through the motions of what has already happened. He really has no choices or decisions (that is an illusion) because these choices and decisions were always going to be made.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Interstellar. I loved its ambition, and I was fascinated with the wormhole space travel and the spectacular visuals of Gargantua. His journey while falling inside I was holding my breath on the edge of my seat! So I'm not trying to suggest Interstellar was a complete failure. But it does fail to reach 2001 level territory IMO, and was an unfortunate missed opportunity to reach 10/10 status (but didn't). This is maybe an 8.5/10 movie, but in all fairness I can see myself giving it a 9 (even a 9.5) if I can somehow wrap my head around the NASA coordinate issue I have.

And one other question...

At the very end of the movie, how is Cooper going to visit Brand when the filmmakers said both the tesseract and wormhole closed?

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[–] TRinzler 8 years ago

I'm familiar with Time Travel Paradoxes as I studied Physics at university and we discussed them over coffee and beers.

The key point here is to realise that Time has no meaning in the "Bulk", so Causality doesn't exist.

It doesn't actually matter WHEN Cooper enters the Tesseract. Only that he communicates the Quantum Data to Murph.

Consider an alternative scenario where Cooper was one of the original Lazarus astronauts who left Earth a decade earlier, just after Murph was born. He would still have traversed the wormhole, and could've chosen to enter the black hole and still ended up in the Tesseract. The problem would then be how to communicate with a daughter he never knew!

Given this scenario, the Ranger accident which ended his pilot career and resulted in him becoming a farmer and having kids was also manufactured by THEM! THEY deliberately ended Cooper's NASA career prematurely, so he would start a family and eventually have a daughter. Remember that when Cooper sees the Tesseract he realises that he isn't the key, SHE IS!

THEY were able to "retrospectively" create the wormhole and the other gravitational anomalies because THEY exist outside of time and hence aren't constrained by it. Similarly, when they place Cooper into the Tesseract, he gains the same ability, albeit restricted to Murph's bedroom. You can think of everything he does in the Tesseract as being similar to what the bulk beings do. If they can violate causality why can't he? The only difference is that he must do it via the Tesseract which limits his influence to Murph's bedroom.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Interstellar. I loved its ambition, and I was fascinated with the wormhole space travel and the spectacular visuals of Gargantua.

Me too! I consider it one of my favourite films of all time. However, that doesn't mean I think it's perfect (it isn't) or that I am unwilling to discuss it's flaws.

So I'm not trying to suggest Interstellar was a complete failure. But it does fail to reach 2001 level territory IMO, and was an unfortunate missed opportunity to reach 10/10 status (but didn't).

The film wasn't a failure so we can ignore that possibility completely. I agree it's not as good as 2001 but don't forget that Kubrick's film was based on a book by A.C. Clarke who was a scientist, a visionary and also a storyteller himself! Nolan didn't have such quality source material to base his story on and he also lacks a scientific background which is why some of the science in Interstellar is flaky. Thankfully, he involved Kip Thorne in discussions about the wormhole, black hole and the physics of General Relativity. If he hadn't then those parts of the film would've been equally fanatistical.

In the documentary "The making of Interstellar", Kip Thorne mentions how Nolan wanted Cooper to travel FTL (Faster Than Light) during his journey but Thorne convinced him that this was one law of physics he couldn't break if he wanted to retain any sense of scientific believability... yet other SciFi films about space travel violate this rule all the time!

There are many reasons Interstellar probably doesn't deserve a 10/10 but I don't consider there to be a casual paradox in the film so I don't think that this is one of them.

And one other question...

At the very end of the movie, how is Cooper going to visit Brand when the filmmakers said both the tesseract and wormhole closed?

No idea. You'll have to ask the film makers! Personally, I thought the ending was weak and didn't make much sense, probably because it was rushed and not properly thought out, almost as if Nolan didn't care about being consistent or believable anymore.

The Tesseract wasn't necessary after Cooper had communicated the Quantum Data to Murph so closing it made sense. What happens to Cooper at that point is actually irrelevant because humanity has been saved and the mission is a success!

However, without the wormhole Cooper has no way to find his way back to Brand, so it would've made more sense to leave it open. After all, humanity now finally has the means to use it to explore the other galaxy so closing it would be stupid...

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

OMFG... I think I connected the dots now - thanks to something SPECIFIC you said!!! Holy freaking sh*t if my adjusted theory is right EVERYTHING makes sense now!!!!!

Point 1). I did NOT make the important connection behind the meaning of the "early NASA years with Cooper". Those nightmare sequences I merely thought was just to establish he used to work with NASA, but it is much MORE than that! I never imagined "THEY" had a purposeful hand in ending his career (which leads to him being a farmer and having his daughter Murphy). Yes, Murphy is the key because she is capable of understanding the graviity equation and also the device where "bulk Cooper" can influence via gravity to pass the information along. But can you guess where I'm now going with this?

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[–] TRinzler 8 years ago

OMFG... I think I connected the dots now - thanks to something SPECIFIC you said!!! Holy freaking sh*t if my adjusted theory is right EVERYTHING makes sense now!!!!!

What was it that helped you connect the dots? The earlier intervention by THEM in Cooper's life?

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

I'm familiar with Time Travel Paradoxes as I studied Physics at university and we discussed them over coffee and beers.

... It surely has been a fun conversation, that's for sure! I'm quite happy to be reviewing this film again. All this talk is starting to make me want to pop Interstellar in the blu-ray player again!

Consider an alternative scenario where Cooper was one of the original Lazarus astronauts who left Earth a decade earlier, just after Murph was born. He would still have traversed the wormhole, and could've chosen to enter the black hole and still ended up in the Tesseract. The problem would then be how to communicate with a daughter he never knew!

... I am NOW very much considering the alternative scenario of Cooper being one of the original Lazarus astronauts! In fact, that's what I am starting to believe - and this notion gives rise to a potential fact to how Cooper would have known the coordinates to NASA (had his previous flight tests never crashed, etc.).

Given this scenario, the Ranger accident which ended his pilot career and resulted in him becoming a farmer and having kids was also manufactured by THEM! THEY deliberately ended Cooper's NASA career prematurely, so he would start a family and eventually have a daughter. Remember that when Cooper sees the Tesseract he realises that he isn't the key, SHE IS!

... An epiphany came to me as I read this comment. I never considered the possibility of "THEY" causing Cooper's previous crash, so that his NASA career would end so he would farm instead (and have a relationship with his daughter). I'm still not quite certain how Cooper came to the realization the bulk beings were more interested in his daughter instead of him. The way the movie shows this scene was a bit "clunky", and the narrative and editing could have been done a bit differently to make this point a bit clearer. The audience can all agree "THEY" were primarily interested in Murphy, and that Cooper was just an avenue to get the information to Murph. I just don't see how this fact came to Cooper's mind. IMO this scene didn't come across as well as it could have.

At the very end of the movie, how is Cooper going to visit Brand when the filmmakers said both the tesseract and wormhole closed?

No idea. You'll have to ask the film makers! Personally, I thought the ending was weak and didn't make much sense, probably because it was rushed and not properly thought out, almost as if Nolan didn't care about being consistent or believable anymore.

... This was the 2nd issue that bugged me the most about Interstellar. I felt the ending was rushed, but at the same time had potential to be fascinating. I didn't get the same feeling that Brand's planet was so "hopeless & desolate" as people commented about. Since we're only seeing one small part of the planet, I'm sure there are many other regions that have better geological interest versus the rocky desert mars-like wasteland we saw. Even if it turns out that's all there was to it, it's a hell of a lot better than Miller's or Mann's planets, that's for sure!

The Tesseract wasn't necessary after Cooper had communicated the Quantum Data to Murph so closing it made sense. What happens to Cooper at that point is actually irrelevant because humanity has been saved and the mission is a success! However, without the wormhole Cooper has no way to find his way back to Brand, so it would've made more sense to leave it open. After all, humanity now finally has the means to use it to explore the other galaxy so closing it would be stupid.

... The movie doesn't officially show the wormhole closing, so for sake of argument (and to keep my mind at peace), I choose to assume the wormhole is still there by the movie's end. The tesseract closes but the wormhole and black holes remain. It was something I read here on IMDB that the filmmakers openly stated their intention was that the wormhole closed along with the tesseract. But given the ending that was presented, I feel that causes more problems than it solves.

So in short, the 3 biggest issues I had/have are:

#1) Cooper giving himself the coordinates to the NASA site. I still see the HUMAN Cooper needing to make the initial journey somehow. Cooper was in the wormhole and black hole. That's WHERE the bulk beings captured him in the first place, yes? But now let's assume the bulk beings initially created the wormhole and the "original" Cooper was one of the astronauts that went on the Lazarus missions. Heck, it's even possible that young female Brand and Cooper had a "thing" together on this timeline (that wouldn't be a far stretch would it?).

#2) The way the ending was presented. It seemed rushed, and didn't make since how or why Cooper would leave with a spaceship to go flying out in space to some unknown galaxy somewhere. It's not like he has a starmap to Edmund's planet, and without the wormhole it could take him thousands or millions of years to get there.

#3) How (exactly) father Cooper came to the realization it was his daughter Murphy that the bulk beings were mostly interested in, and not him.

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[–] TRinzler 8 years ago

... I am NOW very much considering the alternative scenario of Cooper being one of the original Lazarus astronauts! In fact, that's what I am starting to believe - and this notion gives rise to a potential fact to how Cooper would have known the coordinates to NASA (had his previous flight tests never crashed, etc.).

Cooper didn't know about the Lazarus missions so he couldn't have been involved in them at all. We must assume he retired before they began. Also, NASA's location in the film is their "new" top secret location not their "old" public location so again, Cooper didn't know where the co-ordinates were taking him. If he had known where he was going then he wouldn't have needed a map and he wouldn't have been worried for Murph. From the film it's clear he has no idea that he's stumbled upon NASA...

I'm still not quite certain how Cooper came to the realization the bulk beings were more interested in his daughter instead of him. The way the movie shows this scene was a bit "clunky", and the narrative and editing could have been done a bit differently to make this point a bit clearer. The audience can all agree "THEY" were primarily interested in Murphy, and that Cooper was just an avenue to get the information to Murph. I just don't see how this fact came to Cooper's mind. IMO this scene didn't come across as well as it could have.

It's pretty damn obvious actually. Cooper lands in a Tesseract full of scenes of Murph's bedroom! After he gets over the initial shock of WHERE he is and HOW he got there he starts thinking about his predicament and asks himself WHY which leads him to the realisation that he is supposed to communicate with Murph because THEY can't do so directly.

THEY go through the trouble of saving Cooper and TARS from death at the black hole singularity because Cooper needs to communicate the quantum data collected by TARS to Murph. The Tesseract is the evidence for this!

I felt the ending was rushed, but at the same time had potential to be fascinating. I didn't get the same feeling that Brand's planet was so "hopeless & desolate" as people commented about. Since we're only seeing one small part of the planet, I'm sure there are many other regions that have better geological interest versus the rocky desert mars-like wasteland we saw. Even if it turns out that's all there was to it, it's a hell of a lot better than Miller's or Mann's planets, that's for sure!

I agree the ending felt weak but I don't think Edmund's planet looked too bad. However, Amelie was alone, not just because she'd lost Edmund but also because she thought the rest of the crew, including Cooper, were dead and (perhaps even worse) the rest of humanity had gone extinct! Her abject loneliness was psychological as well as physiological as she would consider herself the last surviving human alive! She could enter hibernation but nobody would ever wake her. That's a pretty dark way to end the film....

Cooper heading off to join her gives us the hope that she won't be alone afterall. He'll also be able to tell her the good news about the humans back on Earth!

... The movie doesn't officially show the wormhole closing, so for sake of argument (and to keep my mind at peace), I choose to assume the wormhole is still there by the movie's end. The tesseract closes but the wormhole and black holes remain. It was something I read here on IMDB that the filmmakers openly stated their intention was that the wormhole closed along with the tesseract. But given the ending that was presented, I feel that causes more problems than it solves.

I agree 100%. If the film makers did intend for the wormhole to close they messed up big time, however there is enough ambiguity in the ending that we can assume it's still open.

So in short, the 3 biggest issues I had/have are:

Issue 1 will remain an issue until you put aside causality and time loops and accept what it means to enter the bulk and exist "outside of time" which is where Cooper was while in the Tesseract. So far as the universe was concerned he was dead at that point. He ceased to "exist" (in the normal sense) after entering the black hole. Any actions he took in the Tesseract occurred outside of time.

Issue 2 is indeed a big problem but there is enough ambiguity to avoid it by interpreting the ending differently by assuming the wormhole is still open.

Issue 3 isn't an problem because it was clear from the way THEY populated the Tesseract that THEY were interested in Murph.

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Other things to note...

The tesseract closing makes sense because it was no longer needed. But here is an interesting thought...

Do you think the tesseract closed at a specific time? The earth-time, being, after Murphy figured out the morse code equation to gravity's problem?

Or... do you think that when the tesseract closed it became PERMANENTLY closed (even in earth's past)?

If it's the former, time STILL does exist (to a degree), so that also proves my point about the loop.

If it's the latter, then at that point Cooper's journey will lead to his death because there is no longer a tesseract in the black hole as well. This leads to a different (remotely possible) theory of mine where Cooper inside elder Murphy's Station is actually him being a dead spirit/ghost.

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

As long as you insist there must be an "original timeline" you will always end up with a causal paradox but if time is indeed a traversable dimension then there is no such thing... You can't have a causal paradox without causality!

If there is some way where you can give me a "layman's" example to how this works that makes sense, I would be INCREDIBLY grateful! I've been racking my brain over this issue since the movie came out a few years ago, and am still not at peace with it - and I very well think it's BECAUSE i continue to insist there existing an "original timeline".

But if I accept there is no "original timeline" that means that i'm simply witnessing an endless loop that was created (and the movie is only showing us the LOOP), then IMO that weakens the story because the characters really had no say or choice in what happens in the film since they were ALWAYS going to make those choices.

I've often contemplated that our own very lives... as we make significant choices that we were probably always predestined to make those same choices (so the choices, like time, are a total farce and illusion). We are just living characters in a "recorded movie" per se, and our choices and decisions in our very lives were always predetermined. Now think about THAT idea (and its implications) for a moment! lol.

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[–] TRinzler 8 years ago

But if I accept there is no "original timeline" that means that i'm simply witnessing an endless loop that was created (and the movie is only showing us the LOOP), then IMO that weakens the story because the characters really had no say or choice in what happens in the film since they were ALWAYS going to make those choices.

Time loops can only exist in time but everything Cooper does inside the Tesseract occurs outside of time so doesn't form part of any such loop.

Obviously this is impossible to convey on screen because we, the audience, are also bound by time! So even when Cooper is in the Tesseract, time appears to pass, because for us, viewing it in the cinema (or at home) it still does. This is because Nolan wasn't able to transport US "into the bulk" with Cooper!

This means we tend to think of the events in the Tesseract as "occuring in Cooper's future" because, for us, they happen chronologically after he has left Earth, traversed the wormhole and entered Gargantua. However, this is the wrong way to view that scene because Time has no meaning in the 5th dimension. Events don't happen before or after each other so there is no cause and effect, or perhaps more accurately, effects no longer need causes.

These particular actions APPEAR "predestined" because they occur outside of time (what does that even mean!?) but this is an illusion caused by thinking of things as happening chronologically.

If Cooper had done something in the Tesseract which altered his FUTURE instead of his PAST (e.g. by telling Brand to enter hibernation because he was coming to join her on Edmund's planet) would that be ok to you?

Try to imagine time as a spatial dimension, which is impossible because we're bound by it but we can nevertheless attempt such a thought experiment, just as Einstein did when he imagined travelling at the speed of light. If I can access different points in time I can visit the future then use this information to influence the past and vice versa. I can violate causality when doing this because I no longer exist within time.

This is what the bulk beings can do in this film except they can only influence events using Gravity. By bringing Cooper into the bulk they give them this ability too. However, Cooper isn't a 5th dimensional being so they construct a 4 dimensional cube in which he can exist, which is the Tesseract.

They populated this Tesseract with events from Murph's bedroom because they felt it offered the best opportunity for Cooper to form a bridge to communicate with his daughter as it was the room she spent her childhood with him in and also the room in which they said goodbye to each other when Cooper promised he'd come back to her. Consequently, both Cooper and Murph have a strong emotional connection via that room which might help them intuit a way to communicate with each other.

However, it's important to realise THEY could've filled the Tesseract with scenes from anyone's past or indeed, anyone's future! For example, if it was critical for Cooper to catch the IAF drone then THEY could've captured that moment in the Tesseract so that he could use Gravity to alter it's flight path enough to land it safely. The difference is that THEY didn't need Cooper for this as they could've just done it themselves by creating a gravitational anomaly. However, THEY don't know how to communicate with Murph, which is why they need Cooper to do it for them!

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Time loops can only exist in time but everything Cooper does inside the Tesseract occurs outside of time so doesn't form part of any such loop.

... Cooper's existence inside the Tesseract occurs outside of time. However, the observable by-product of the gravitational anomalies he's creating outside the tesseract do happen in real time, and is observed on a natural timeline from both Murphy and Cooper.

Obviously this is impossible to convey on screen because we, the audience, are also bound by time! So even when Cooper is in the Tesseract, time appears to pass, because for us, viewing it in the cinema (or at home) it still does. This is because Nolan wasn't able to transport US "into the bulk" with Cooper!

... LOL, yes. This is true. :-)

This means we tend to think of the events in the Tesseract as "occuring in Cooper's future" because, for us, they happen chronologically after he has left Earth, traversed the wormhole and entered Gargantua. However, this is the wrong way to view that scene because Time has no meaning in the 5th dimension. Events don't happen before or after each other so there is no cause and effect, or perhaps more accurately, effects no longer need causes.

... I agree time has no meaning in the 5th dimension. So the "bulk beings" are invisible to us because they are working on a difference "frequency" than us (unless and/or until they can freeze themselves in the present). I also agree the Cooper inside the tesseract has no meaning of time because he's essentially a "bulk being" in the 4th & 5th dimension.

These particular actions APPEAR "predestined" because they occur outside of time (what does that even mean!?) but this is an illusion caused by thinking of things as happening chronologically.

... Once Cooper gives himself the coordinates, at that moment humans will perceive a timeline that dictates that Cooper was given the coordinates (and finds NASA). And likewise... Since Cooper goes to NASA and visits the black hole's tesseract he is now able to "feed" himself the coordinates to NASA again. As long as he receive the coordinate (from someone - Cooper or otherwise), there is (technically) no paradox because the link is complete. But if it's Cooper giving himself the information it's illogical and doesn't make sense (but I suppose the act itself is paradox free - whatever). Yet, if he does NOT receive the coordinates (from anyone or otherwise), then there would be a paradox because the link would be incomplete. Once the Cooper giving Cooper the coordinates is established, there is a continuous loop ON THE HUMAN SIDE OUTSIDE THE TESSERACT even if the other Coop in the bulk is co-existing simultaneously. The humans outside the tesseract are not operating on 4-5 dimensions, so they are traveling through a timeline stuck in their present (as humans normally do).

If Cooper had done something in the Tesseract which altered his FUTURE instead of his PAST (e.g. by telling Brand to enter hibernation because he was coming to join her on Edmund's planet) would that be ok to you?

... If it is HIS future, I guess it would depend on WHEN he meets Brand on Edmund's planet. If he can only visit his own future, it's uncertain if he will arrive while she is still alive and well. But I suppose if the "bulk beings" were able to align his tessearct towards Brand's current position I'm okay fine if he is able to influence Brand (because she is someone else and not himself). But to maintain consistency of the movie's theories it would require that he's only able to pass the message via gravity.

Try to imagine time as a spatial dimension, which is impossible because we're bound by it but we can nevertheless attempt such a thought experiment, just as Einstein did when he imagined travelling at the speed of light. If I can access different points in time I can visit the future then use this information to influence the past and vice versa. I can violate causality when doing this because I no longer exist within time.

They populated this Tesseract with events from Murph's bedroom because they felt it offered the best opportunity for Cooper to form a bridge to communicate with his daughter as it was the room she spent her childhood with him in and also the room in which they said goodbye to each other when Cooper promised he'd come back to her. Consequently, both Cooper and Murph have a strong emotional connection via that room which might help them intuit a way to communicate with each other.

... Murphy's bedroom was, indeed, the perfect choice for the Tesseract. There is a strong emotional connection inside the bedroom because that was where Murphy's last memory was of him. It's also why this moment in time was so painful for Cooper to watch (which led to him initially trying to convince Murphy to make him stay).

However, it's important to realise THEY could've filled the Tesseract with scenes from anyone's past or indeed, anyone's future! For example, if it was critical for Cooper to catch the IAF drone then THEY could've captured that moment in the Tesseract so that he could use Gravity to alter it's flight path enough to land it safely. The difference is that THEY didn't need Cooper for this as they could've just done it themselves by creating a gravitational anomaly. However, THEY don't know how to communicate with Murph, which is why they need Cooper to do it for them!

... "THEY" are uncertain exactly how to communicate with Murphy, but Cooper certainly is. He knows his daughter. As an added bonus, I also assume by having Cooper do the "dirty work" it avoids informational paradoxes of "THEY" passing information directly to people.

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[–] soulsk8ter225 8 years ago

Thread. Bookmarked.

** Rest in peace, Timothy Volkert (1988 - 2003) **

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[–] JTGleason 8 years ago

I originally had read your to and fro with BB-15, and was going to add in a few bits a week ago, but now I see you've added a few other theoretical physicists to your conundrum. After reading a few more theories, I went back to your original post, and read your paradox.

*** HOWEVER !!! ***

It is COOPER that gives HIMSELF the coordinates to NASA!!! He influenced the gravitational "pull" of the falling dust and created those NASA coordinates for himself and his daughter to see!!!

So here lies my problem...

I have no issue with the continuous "loop" of Cooper giving himself the coordinates to NASA, but this is PROVIDING THERE IS SOME WAY FOR COOPER AND HIS DAUGHTER TO DISCOVER THE NASA SITE IN THE FIRST PLACE APART FROM 4TH-5TH DIMENSIONAL COOPER GIVING HIMSELF THE COORDINATES!

A paradox is only there if its existence is unexplainable. In this case TARS has been forgotten about, and he has always known NASA's coordinates. Cooper just asks TARS for them in binary inside the tesseract to message the falling sand. With that, There is no need to explain loops, paradoxes, nor being outside of time in the 4-5th dimensions, but just that TARS had the coordinates to give. I do have lots to say about the time theories brought in from "Interstellar", but this should answer the question posed!

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

That doesn't quite work because Cooper and Tars were together... captured into the tesseract. TARS just reminded Cooper where the coordinates were but it was Cooper who physically altered gravity to give himself the coordinates. If TARS was (originally) by itself inside the black hole, and even if "they" trapped TARS in the tesseract I don't think TARS could manipulate gravity to create those piles of sand like Cooper did.

I consider this a paradox because... while it's not "Grandfather" or "Bootstrap" (although it's very close to Bootstrap) what we have is a loop that could not have existed without the aid of the bulk beings. The key point is the BULK BEINGS GRABBED COOPER FROM SOMEWHERE! They can't just grab him from "think air" out of nowhere. They grabbed him when he was falling into the singularity of the black hole. But the movie shows he only goes there because of the coordinates himself has given him. Without the bulk beings, Cooper's life would not have moved along that way.

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[–] yvonneshusband 8 years ago

Isn't this an example of the 'Bootstrap' or 'self-perpetuating' paradox?

An opinion is not offensive just because you do not agree with it.

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

I need to see if "self-perpetuating' paradox is a true paradox. If so, that is the CORE of my complaint with Interstellar!

Grandfather Paradox relates to time travel causing something to not exist. Perhaps you go back in time to shoot your grandfather (or father, or great grandfather) which ultimately prevents your own birth. Or perhaps you go back in time and convince your grandfather to flake out on a date with your grandmother (she gets angry and never sees him again). It doesn't require such drastic measures of murder to create such a paradox. In Back to the Future, his mom had the "hots" for Marty instead of George. Another Grandfather Paradox, but was playfully resolved.

Bootstrap Paradox relates to an object or source of information passed down from one individual in the past, which leads to events happening in the future that makes the information (or object) passed over in the past again. In the movie "Somewhere in Time", (SPOILERS AHEAD) the pocket watch the old lady gives him could be a Bootstrap Paradox. Since that pocket watch is what drives him to investigate who she is. He then discovers who she WAS. He feels a strong attraction towards her old photograph as if he knows her from somewhere, which leads to him bringing the watch with him as he travels back in time, which leads to him slipping away (but the watch remains), which leads to her holding on to the watch as a treasured relic, which leads to her becoming an old lady giving him the watch again. (END SPOILERS) But this could either be an object, or INFORMATION. I think the filmmakers may have avoided the bootstrap paradox because the NASA coordinates "technically" came from TARS. Also, as BB pointed out, because existing in the bulk occurs outside of time this may eradicate any paradoxes that normally would occur. However, the INFLUENCE Cooper gives IS within time. Meaning... his physical body is outside of time but the gravitational anomalies he creates causing the sand piles still exists in human linear time. So IMO they didn't quite escape the paradoxes as they intended.

This one seems more "predestination" or this "self-perpetuating" paradox. It has bothered me since day 1 after seeing this movie.

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[–] TRinzler 8 years ago

I think the filmmakers may have avoided the bootstrap paradox because the NASA coordinates "technically" came from TARS.

That's irrelevant. It's only by communicating them via a gravitational anomaly that events are set in motion (or changed). TARS gives them to Cooper but NASA gave them to TARS and GPS gave them to NASA. None of these are relevant because your issue is that Cooper sends them to himself. However, you're arguing he sends them to himself from the future (hence causing a paradox) when he doesn't because there is no time in the Tesseract...

Also, as BB pointed out, because existing in the bulk occurs outside of time this may eradicate any paradoxes that normally would occur.

Not eradicate. They simply CAN'T occur without time, which is what I've been saying in every single one of my replies.

However, the INFLUENCE Cooper gives IS within time.

Yes. The effects occur within (normal) time. So what? Paradoxes arise when the causes don't precede their effects. It's the causes that are important here not their effects...

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

None of these are relevant because your issue is that Cooper sends them to himself. However, you're arguing he sends them to himself from the future (hence causing a paradox) when he doesn't because there is no time in the Tesseract...

On Cooper's HUMAN timeline (not the bulk-Cooper)...

1) A wormhole is created about 50 years ago
2) His plane crashes due to a local gravitational anomaly
3) He now farms instead of working for NASA
4) He builds a strong father-daughter relationship
5) He sees the NASA coordinates
6) Father and daughter discover NASA
7) He takes a mission and goes through the wormhole
8) He almost dies on Mann's planet (Mann comments how he will see his children right before he dies)
9) He is rescued and barely makes it on the spinning space station
10) Brand flies to Edmund's planet, Cooper falls into Gargantua
11) Cooper ejects from crumbling spacecraft and is now "free-falling" towards the singularity
12) Meanwhile, TARS is studying the effects of black hole's gravitational properties
13) Cooper witnesses he is about to enter this "grid-like" thingamajig... the upcoming tesseract
=== TIMELINE ENDS ===
14) He's flying and fumbling around the tesseract
(a 3D "model" the bulk beings created so he can understand things better)
15) He figures out he needs to pass gravity message to Murph and NASA coordinates to himself

Okay so...

Cooper wasn't captured in his past. Nor was he captured "outside of time". Once he was CAPTURED in the future, he was saved by the tidal forces of Gargantua and he now exists "outside of time" inside the tesseract.

Here is my problem...

The bulk beings cannot CAPTURE him unless he goes on the NASA mission.
He doesn't go on the NASA mission unless he discovers the coordinates.

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[–] TRinzler 8 years ago

Here is my problem...

The bulk beings cannot CAPTURE him unless he goes on the NASA mission.
He doesn't go on the NASA mission unless he discovers the coordinates.

There is no problem here. The problem is with how he receives the coordinates.

If he'd been given the coordinates directly by THEM you're fine with it but not if they came from himself after the fact, except it wasn't after the fact...

That's what BB is also getting at.

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

I'm concerned with how Cooper was CAPTURED by "them". If "they" created the tesseract to safely capture Cooper he wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for his message within the tesseract.

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[–] TRinzler 8 years ago

He wasn't captured. THEY provided him way to enter Gargantua and he chose to do so...

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

lol. good one.

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

All we are seeing is the LOOP. I'm curious of what happened prior to the loop. We all agree these gravitational wonders are meddling changes "they" are doing (including going back in time). So they are ALTERING history (even though many arguments state you can't alter history) but essentially that is what's happening.

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[–] mradam-3 8 years ago

It's a predestination paradox. It doesn't happen more than once, and it doesn't have a first time separate from a bunch of other times. Everything happens just once, with some events of the future causing some events of the past. That's the paradox. It doesn't get resolved so that there is an unseen explanation for the time traveler being there in the past. He's there because he later departed the future to arrive in the past.

The Terminator uses a similar concept. Kyle Reese arrives in 1984 to protect Sarah (and John) Connor from the Terminator. But he actually became the father of John Connor. There was no other father before who he replaced, and there was no 1984 without time travelers that Kyle Reese and the Terminator altered. Kyle was always the father, and 1984 always had time travelers from the future. Skynet had actually caused the very existence of its own enemy by sending the Terminator back, which caused the humans to send back the father.

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[–] yvonneshusband 8 years ago

Bootstrap Paradox relates to an object or source of information passed down from one individual in the past, which leads to events happening in the future that makes the information (or object) passed over in the past again.

Which is pretty much what this is. Cooper sends himself the information.

An opinion is not offensive just because you do not agree with it.

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

It is (kind of) what this is. But the billiard table diagram I saw does show it isn't a true paradox. With Interstellar, there is a mysterious "anomaly" that occurs that creates a situation where Cooper goes back in time and "pushes" him through the wormhole so he can go back in time again to give himself that "push". Originally, he was probably not going in that direction (zero shots in the corner) but once the anomaly hit his previous self is pushing him forward (1 shot in the pocket). Zero divided by One is still mathematically okay (but still doesn't make sense - lol).

The true anomaly would be if Cooer does NOT give himself the coordinates to NASA... thus preventing him from going on the wormhole trip. That would create a "grandfather paradox". This is similar to the billiard table analogy where 1 shot is successful, but due to the impact from back in time prevents the shot from going in. 1 successful shot yields zero in the pocket (1 divided by zero isn't possible).

In short, the rules were able to be "broken" as the movie shows GRAVITY is the specific element that was used to pass across these other dimensions. That makes the situation "legal", and in the end what we are now seeing is the "loop" of Cooper giving himself the coordinates to NASA... so he can go on his trip through the wormhole so he can go back in time through the tesseract to give himself the coordinates. We never get to see what "originally" would have happened to Cooper. The anomaly that occurs makes it so that it has always happened that way (including the anomaly).

Now between you and me... I don't really buy this load of physics B.S. (simply because it makes no logical sense), but apparently this type of single timeline structure (and preservation of self-consistency) makes everything mathematically legal in terms of physics (even though it's completely illogical and still impossible).

Note that neither of us complain that Cooper & Company can easily exit Miller's watery planet (with stronger gravity than earth) with NO full blown rocket fuel tanks to escape its gravity. Also nobody seems to mind that blight no longer exists on the space stations (even though the soil and plants & seeds were lifted from earth). But I'm at least more accepting of the Interstellar situation now (even though I wish I could have seen what could have been... but since it's all one timeline we are deprived of that).

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi EyeInSky; you wrote a nice summary of the official time travel explanation by the film makers and the experts.

"But the billiard table diagram I saw does show it isn't a true paradox."

That's Thorne's work (with all the billiard ball combinations) where his time travel ideas cannot have a paradox.

"but still doesn't make sense - lol"

Exactly. From our everyday experience this does not make sense.
But this is physics using quantum mechanics and black holes and wormholes which gets very strange.

"The true anomaly would be if Cooer does NOT give himself the coordinates to NASA... thus preventing him from going on the wormhole trip."

Right! There are central events in "Interstellar" which must happen otherwise there is a paradox.

"In short, the rules were able to be "broken" as the movie shows GRAVITY is the specific element that was used to pass across these other dimensions. That makes the situation "legal","'

Yes, hypothetical beings using gravity in the 5th dimension which is outside of time that makes what happens in the movie possible according to the scientists.

"Now between you and me... I don't really buy this load of physics B.S. (simply because it makes no logical sense),"

 It's one of those weird Nolan films.

"apparently this type of single timeline structure (and preservation of self-consistency) makes everything mathematically legal in terms of physics"

Yes, those are the rules in the movie for time travel.

* Once those time travel rules are accepted, then some more mind bending things can be understood. At least from where the film makers are coming from which has to do with the Bulk beings.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hello again BB,

It all came down to embracing the 3rd pool/billiard table diagram. But please note that in that example the ball WAS going to neither pocket! It was originally going to the short side of the table. We can interpret this as similar to how Cooper WAS flying his plane at NASA before the bulk beings were screwing things around causing various anomalies. Eventually, one major anomaly happened which caused Cooper to EITHER go into the wormhole & black hole... which leads inside the tesseract... or possibly one that caused Cooper to land in the tesseract "first" (so he gives himself the coordinates to NASA). Either one can occur which would enable this type of loop in the story. We just never get to see the "what if" since the anomalies present cancelled any POTENTIAL "what if"... and made things so it always played out that way.

Still... it would have been nice to have SEEN the "what if"... but the more I think about it, Christopher Nolan already gives us that at the very beginning of the film with the nightmare/dream of Cooper's plane crash! That's why a few weeks ago I got all giddy & excited... because I somehow knew that was the hidden answer to my frustration.

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

Hi again EyeInSky;

"It all came down to embracing the 3rd pool/billiard table diagram. But please note that in that example the ball WAS going to neither pocket! It was originally going to the short side of the table"

As I recall Thorne showed that multiple different billiard ball shots in the past could happen which did not cause a paradox.
Not causing a paradox is the key thing imo.
Another crucial think is that there is only one timeline.

"We can interpret this as similar to how Cooper WAS flying his plane at NASA before the bulk beings were screwing things around causing various anomalies."

This is an early 'billiard ball shot' which must happen so that Cooper leaves NASA and bonds with Murph.
Cooper must bond with Murph in order for her to become a scientist and to figure out the anti-gravity formula.
- The Bulk beings must make Cooper's crash happen to avoid a paradox imo.

"Eventually, one major anomaly happened which caused Cooper to EITHER go into the wormhole & black hole... which leads inside the tesseract... or possibly one that caused Cooper to land in the tesseract "first" (so he gives himself the coordinates to NASA)."

This can be broken down into events which must happen in order to avoid a paradox.
These can be seen as individual 'billiard ball shots'.

1. The Bulk beings must create the wormhole in the past.
2. The Bulk beings must create the bulk area in a black hole near the wormhole which is fully under Bulk being control.
- In this bulk area the Bulk beings create the tesseract which is an instrument which allows a human to visually see multiple views of the past and allows a human to move things with gravity in the past.
3. Cooper must go through the wormhole.
- He must get to the black hole.
- In the black hole gravity must position him so he enters the tesseract.
- In the tesseract Cooper becomes bulk Cooper and he must see all the events in the past where anomalies occurred in his house.

Bulk Cooper must manipulate the tesseract so that gravity beams are sent back in time to create the anomalies at his house in the past.
Bulk Cooper must knock things off shelves in Murph's room.
Bulk Cooper must create a code in the dust on the floor so that past Cooper will see it and go to NASA in the past.
Bulk Cooper must move the hand on Murph's watch to give her the anti-gravity equation.

"We just never get to see the "what if" since the anomalies present cancelled any POTENTIAL "what if"... and made things so it always played out that way."

Agreed. The timeline must play out in a certain way so there are no paradoxes.
And part of the timeline is that Plan B works. All the events leading up to Plan B working must happen.

* Now I'll go further in the future than this.
4. The humans from earth in the space stations go through the wormhole and find a planet in another galaxy.
- So, not only does Cooper meet up with Anne Hathaway (young Dr. Brand) but so does everyone else.
5. The colonization of the planet in another galaxy is a huge success.
- It eventually creates a super advanced civilization in the future.
6. This super advanced human civilization eventually becomes the Bulk beings/human civilization which is outside of time.
- Then these Bulk humans use gravity to create the wormhole in the past near earth.
- And then these Bulk humans send gravity anomalies into the past to crash Cooper's ship so he leaves NASA.

* And so the time travel sequence of events in the entire film folds back on itself all the way from the far distant future back into the past when Cooper crashed his ship.
Again imo.

"the more I think about it, Christopher Nolan already gives us that at the very beginning of the film with the nightmare/dream of Cooper's plane crash!"

I understand your frustration.
But I've surrendered to Nolan's vision.
- The crash in the past must happen.
It is part of a long sequence of events in this timeline which must occur so that there are no paradoxes.

Imo at least, BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Hi again, BB...

"We can interpret this as similar to how Cooper WAS flying his plane at NASA before the bulk beings were screwing things around causing various anomalies."

This is an early 'billiard ball shot' which must happen so that Cooper leaves NASA and bonds with Murph.
Cooper must bond with Murph in order for her to become a scientist and to figure out the anti-gravity formula.

- The Bulk beings must make Cooper's crash happen to avoid a paradox imo.

... In the "many worlds" type interpretation (like Back to the Future), this could have been interpreted as an act to change Cooper's destiny. But in the "single timeline" interpretation (like the T.T.W. movie you recommended or Interstellar), I personally believe the purpose for Cooper's crash is for BOTH. I'm leaning towards the idea where the bulk beings are doing numerous things - but such that it only impacts a small group of people. If they influence thousands of people that could lead to hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of "fixes" they must create to prevent paradoxes. My thinking is the bulk beings created the wormhole and caused Cooper's crash (and created the Tesseract among other things) so they could manipulate the past in such a way where things "legally" work out and there are no paradoxes on a single timeline approach. But I still interpret they are using gravity to willfully cause LEGAL changes but must do so in such a way where there are no paradoxes.

Agreed. The timeline must play out in a certain way so there are no paradoxes.
And part of the timeline is that Plan B works. All the events leading up to Plan B working must happen.

* Now I'll go further in the future than this.
4. The humans from earth in the space stations go through the wormhole and find a planet in another galaxy.

... This is how I choose to interpret Interstellar. HOWEVER... according to several posts on this site it was stated Kip Thorne and the Nolans are with the understanding the Tesseract and the Wormhole have BOTH closed. Granted... I have not read or heard them say this outright directly (so it's "hearsay" from other posts). But if there is any truth to this, that does throw out the theory of space stations going through the wormhole.

- So, not only does Cooper meet up with Anne Hathaway (young Dr. Brand) but so does everyone else.

... Again, another problem I have with how the movie was presented IF the wormhole, had indeed, closed. One theory that someone mentioned (maybe it was Rizner) is that with the equation of gravity solved it's possible that small ships (like the one Cooper took off with in the end) are capable of gravitational warp drives to bend space and make vast space travel reaches possible. While he wouldn't know the location on his own (he would need the wormhole for that), please note he DID take T.A.R.S. with him! And he could in all likelihood calculate the location of young Dr. Brand. But in order to do so he would need some kind of database of all the star systems in our galaxy (so that's a far-fetched idea). However... possibly not because it is believed there is a supermassive black hole in the center of every major galaxy (which is the source of the rotation, spiraling shapes, and the "glue" that holds our galaxy together). So it is possible he may be just directing Cooper to the center of our own galaxy - and that is where young Brand is. Or, perhaps the more simple explanation is the wormhole still does exist and the other posters were incorrect or maybe there was "misinformation" out there. Either way, it would be an interesting thought to discover what Thorne and the Nolan's take on the wormhole is!

5. The colonization of the planet in another galaxy is a huge success.
- It eventually creates a super advanced civilization in the future.
6. This super advanced human civilization eventually becomes the Bulk beings/human civilization which is outside of time.
- Then these Bulk humans use gravity to create the wormhole in the past near earth.
- And then these Bulk humans send gravity anomalies into the past to crash Cooper's ship so he leaves NASA.

* And so the time travel sequence of events in the entire film folds back on itself all the way from the far distant future back into the past when Cooper crashed his ship.
Again imo.
BB-15

... Agreed.

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[–] MensTemporum 8 years ago

Last night I watched Interstellar on Blu-ray. I mainly bought it because I am interested in CGI technology and space-oriented films use that a lot, but I didn't know much about the plot beforehand. Earlier this year I started watching the TV series Person of Interest on DVD. As I enjoyed both of these items it occurred to me that one could create a very entertaining story by combining elements of both. However, to avoid any accusations of plagiarism it would be expedient to get the story created and verified by someone before Person of Interest started airing on TV, that was in September 2011 I think.

If it were possible to do this, where would the paradox occur? Would it be in 2011 or now? Would there be any paradox at all? There is no specific point in a temporal loop that one can define as its beginning. It is only when one looks at it chronologically that there appears to be a "starting point", but I could claim that the process started when you created this thread and I replied to it if I chose to.

Another point about the absence of a paradox is that few people are "in the loop". This is true in Interstellar. Murph states that people outside the loop believe that she devised the quantum gravity calculations herself. In other words, outside the loop there is plausible deniability that it occurred, to use a political term. Where human behaviour and free will are involved it is relatively easy for plausible deniability to exist, so this is where paradox-free causality loops are most likely to occur without affecting mainstream chronology. Everybody does not have the same perception or experience of reality regardless of whether any absolute reality actually exists.

To illustrate this distinction between perceptions from inside and outside the loop I have created a website http://www.menstemporum.uk/ documenting how I actually did write a novel in 2011 for no apparent reason that I could think of at the time. It was about a small team with a unique machine who used messages sent from the future to help people in trouble. At the time I had no idea where the story came from as I had never written any fiction in my life. The novel itself, for what it is worth, is freely downloadable from the website as I never had any serious intentions about publishing it, or even writing it for that matter. If you visit the site and read the strange facts there eventually you will have to decide whether your own perceptions of what I experienced are from inside or outside of the loop. There is no right answer as to the reality so far as I can see from my viewpoint.

I particularly liked the remark in Interstellar about love transcending space and time, whereas some hard scientists apparently didn't. When my future wife and I first met some 45 years ago it was like resuming a long relationship and neither of us doubted that we would spend the rest of our lives together even though we never discussed that at the time. That was and still is a very long temporal loop with no defined beginning. It has been observed that if anything can cause temporal anomalies, including the transmission of thoughts backwards across time, within the brain then it is emotions. This is not surprising as neurons have spent hundreds of millions of years developing survival strategies and being able to relay a warning backwards in time when stressed by an immediate threat is a very useful strategy. I wouldn't count falling in love as that serious a threat though, but emotions are emotions.

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[–] MensTemporum 8 years ago

OMG! When I wrote my previous post I didn't know that Jonathan Nolan was the writer on both Interstellar and Person of Interest! So, on top of potential temporal paradoxes I have some weird interpersonal psychobabble to contend with as well. Thank heavens I'm such a well-adjusted individual. Perhaps it's time to update my website.

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[–] EyeInSky 8 years ago

Jonathan Nolan (Chris's brother), was involved with Person of Interest... which got fairly decent feedback. While I wasn't overly enamored by it, I did certainly enjoy parts of it.

The current big thing that everyone is raving about is Westworld! It's a J.J. Abrams & Jonathan Nolan team. John also directs a few episodes and is one of the writers. Pretty much *everyone* I spoke to who have seen Westworld says it's absolutely fantastic. Times like this make me wish I have HBO :-)

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[–] Askur 8 years ago

If a multiverse with all its possible timelines from the beginning to the end was created all at once in big bang, then it would explain it.

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[–] BB-15 8 years ago

True, a multiverse according to the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics can be used to explain the time travel in "Interstellar".
But the science advisor behind "Interstellar", Kip Thorne, does not use multiple timelines in his work.
He uses a single timeline.

BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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