He said it awakened something in him. Didn't he feel that he was in the wrong body, or at least feel that something was already "off" with how he felt about himself, and his sexual identity prior to putting the dress on? That was one thing I didn't understand. Great film, though
"You're foul Hart. A wart on the nose of humanity, and I'm about to blast it off."
I don't know the trans experience, but to me that felt a little off - like it was a mental affliction he developed quickly. She went from being (perceivably) happy as Einar to suddenly so desperate to be Lili she was willing to risk her life. Then again, that might be very faithful to the trans experience, I don't know. Some people go through whole portions or even most of their lives before transitioning to their true gender (Caitlyn Jenner the best recent example, I suppose), so perhaps it is something they can quash inside them for a long time, and can be brought out in different ways.
shareI think he always felt that way. I got the impression he dressed in his mother and grandmothers things occasionally as a child. I think what it awakened was his realization that he could be who he wanted to be (lili) or that he didn't even have a choice in the matter anymore. It awakened his need to be lili all the time.
shareI got the impression he had those feelings as a child, but they were suppressed when his father caught him kissing Hans. It wasn't until he put on the dress that he felt like being a woman was possible.
shareI think you're right that this was a flaw in the story. As a transwoman I can tell you that our stories are usually very predictable. We know something's wrong as soon as we learn what gender is. We'll often cross-dress in secret, but try to suppress it several times and often for many years but it doesn't go away. Around puberty it usually becomes an erotic thing as well, though that fades. This is why I found the sudden "awakening" unrealistic. He should have at least had a history of cross-dressing.
shareAround puberty it usually becomes an erotic thing as well, though that fades.
I guess that's the problem with anecdotal evidence. All the transwomen I got to know had nearly identical stories, but we may have all been self-selecting our type while others are self-selecting theirs. I think the erotic aspect is what created the idea of autogynephilia in which some people tried to dismiss us as not real transsexuals. I wish I'd had the courage to transition young but I was too frightened to even think about it. I can't even imagine how different my life would have been. What I required was meeting other transfolk. My transition started almost immediately after meeting my first. It's one thing to know they exist. It's quite another to have a personal connection. I'm really happy to see trans teens able to simply be themselves in may parts of the country.
shareI figured Einar was always Lili in his mind, he just didn't have enough courage to show it or get serious with it.
When Gerda started playing with the idea of him trying something different (for her work), he started thinking about it too and felt freer to explore this new territory with her by his side, encouraging him to try out what it looks like to be a woman. He would never realize his subconscious needs without Gerda.
He would never realize his subconscious needs without Gerda.
Yeah, he stated that as a child he had to make himself be a boy the whole day, so it was repressed until all this came about. What I don't get is how he was SO comfortably affectionate with his wife, and obviously enjoyed his life/sex with her as a man....Then when Lili became more and more present, all that went away. Strange to me. A lot of men who transition still want to love their wives as deeply, if not more so. Perhaps in the movie it was because Lili sensed that Gerta wanted her as a man..... but then again, Lili had no problem kissing boys. All very confusing... Lol
shareGreat discussion. The film makers clearly showed him/her in ecstasy when touching and feeling and wearing women's clothes. But later stressed his female mannerisms more than the clothes. It was an attempt to show the transition, not to show the impetus or trigger. I don't think it matters if sexual arousal was imperative or dominant, besides, it seemed to me it was an inward, emotional bliss that pushed the desire to change forward, in the end.
But the debate over the validity of autogynephilia fascinates me. Maybe someone here has insight on this. Is it generally believed that heterosexual men who cross dress for sexual pleasure only, erotic play only, are in any way associated with autogynephilia perceptions or labels? Or is a man who is sexually aroused by wearing women's clothes, and during the fantasy (only), even acting as a women, a separate category more akin to "sexual fantasy" rather than gender identity?
In other words, a heterosexual man who only crossdresses to get off sexually, is no different than a man who dresses up in leather and acts out S&M fantasies just to get off sexually? Meaning, a (fantasy) dominant leather wearing man is a character, and so is a heterosexual man who crossdresses only as an erotic booster or fantasy. Is that perceived as correct, generally speaking?
Now a more difficult question. If a trans person (born male anatomically), either beginning or complete trans, who is sexually aroused by crossdressing, in the same category as a hetero man who crossdress but has no desire, or need to be a woman or become a woman? In other words, if a trans person is sexually aroused by crossdressing, is that not just a sexual fantasy and has nothing to do with the concept of autogynephilia as a trigger or judgement of why there is a desire to gender switch for real (not just fantasy)?
A separate question: Is it believed that most transgender people are not sexually aroused by wearing the clothing of the sex they are transitioning too?
Sorry if my terminology is awkward, I'm no expert.
You are right - but the film only addresses its deliberate misdirection with one line (when Gerda asks if she caused it, and Lili says not) and doesn't try to delve any deeper into psychological motivation, more's the pity!
"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?!"
I also think that draw for Wegner was always there, from childhood. Hence the grandma's apron story. What confused me was the "elner vs lily" distinction Wegner made. Was that from a place of "Don't call me Einar anymore. My name is Lily", out of respect for the transformation (mental or physical). Or was this truly someone with a split personality..."Einar isn't here now" or "he died". In the beginning, there was an obvious duality to the two, but it quickly became an either or separation where one seemed to deny the other. This, I didn't quite follow. I suppose if one is stuggling with this, there may be no clear cut answers - it just seemed unexplained in this film.
share