MovieChat Forums > Rendition (2007) Discussion > Does the 'end always justify the means'?

Does the 'end always justify the means'?

posted 11 years ago by JustMammal
6 replies | jump to latest

It's strange to hear people defending medieval forms of tortures as "saving lives". But is this all worth if America succumbs to the level of Gestapo to achieve its objectives ?

I happen to have watched recently a French movie called "Army of Crime" where it shows how French Resistance members were tortured by the Nazi Police to attain information. And of course, they were labelled "terrorists", and indeed, in an effort to kill a Nazi high commander French Resistance may have killed innocent bystanders too.

However, my point is not too exonerate terrorists, but to ask how people can be so blase about the use of torture. To paraphrase a popular quote: "Those who sacrifice basic human dignity (yes, even for terrorists!) for some temporary security, deserve neither"

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[–] Obaminableshowman 11 years ago

I happen to have watched recently a French movie called "Army of Crime" where it shows how French Resistance members were tortured by the Nazi Police to attain information. And of course, they were labelled "terrorists", and indeed, in an effort to kill a Nazi high commander French Resistance may have killed innocent bystanders too.

An incredibly misguided and incorrectly applied analogy....Here's a better one:

If a couple of Jews, in their effort to save some of the 6 million who were about to be incinerated, happened to capture a Nazi officer and tortured him for information that could save some of their imprisoned brethren, did that act of torture not serve a greater good?

Now that we have made the Nazis analgous to the piece of s*#t cowards who murder innocent civilians, isn't that far more appropriate than to compare them to Americans who seek to terminate further cowardly attacks?

[–] JustMammal 11 years ago

I just encountered the Justice Stevens 2010 remark, and he tells it best: "If this Nation is to remain true to the ideals symbolized by its flag, it must not wield the tools of tyrants even to resist an assault by the forces of tyranny."

[–] BluLuBoyle 11 years ago

If this Nation is to remain true to the ideals symbolized by its flag, it must not wield the tools of tyrants even to resist an assault by the forces of tyranny

A 90 year old over-the-top liberal judge with no perspective outside of his cocoon.

This statement was made by Stevens regarding the case of an accused terrorist who died in custody. Not as much about torture as about abuse of power and incongruous force....btw

[–] JustMammal 11 years ago

Well if speaking out against "cruel and unusual" punishment that is torture makes you a liberal, than the writers of US Constitution were all a bunch of liberals, since even if you don't consider torture "unusual" it's almost by definition "cruel".

I find it ironic how in 18th Century when torture was commonplace, framers tried to put a stop to it. And now centuries later, we try practicing it again.

We do that for expedient reasons. But than once we breach the torture taboo, where does it stop ? Let's say we can make a terrorist talk by skinning alive his wife and son in front of him ? Should we allow ourselves such atrocities, even if to uncover a lethal terrorist plot, that would save thousands of lives?

There are more important things than saving humans lives. They are saving moral principles our country was based on.

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[–] Obaminableshowman 11 years ago

There are more important things than saving humans lives. They are saving moral principles our country was based on.

Everyone cites the constitution while bending it towards their agenda. I am fluent enough with the constitution to know that absolutely nothing about it addresses the use of torture, the morality of it nor what is appropriate in dealing with terrorism.

You can rest assured that our founding fathers were as liberal as you want to invent them and as conservative as i perceive them to have been. These are the same guys who murdered unarmed tax accessors strictly to send a message.

It's all about the "current" threat. You can bet your azz they would have filleted an arab's backside if they thought it would protect them or their family.

Having a "global" view of morality is a beautiful thing. When it touches closer to home or when you truly feel threatened human nature takes over (in most of us) and that translates to a "whatever it takes" mentality.

[–] yusef-ghanima 10 years ago

yeah i think isis should attack american kindergartens since american drones kill muslim children, and the holocaust is a myth.

i mostly will not be able to answer your reply, since marissa mayer hacked my email, no notification