MovieChat Forums > End of the Line (2008) Discussion > *Spoilers* (Something no one here seems ...

Spoilers (Something no one here seems to notice)

posted 16 years ago by naruto-ish
21 replies | jump to latest

1) I agree with the guy in another post about the muffins, that is what I was thinking the whole time. They mention them 3 separate times during the movie so It's kind of obvious.

2) I believe, and this is just a guess of course, but The part where they all start popping pills to me felt like the cult leader was being cornered and he paged all of his members to take the pills. The reason they exchange pills instead of taking themselves is pretty obvious. I'm not a religious man but in most religions that I know of suicide is a sin, and this is further proved when the old lady says "God forgive me" when she takes her pill herself.

3)I also agree with the other poster about Karen's drugs wearing off and seeing nothing but corpses.

4)The beginning of the movie is actually the end, long in the future. Karen has a scar on her left shoulder, from that night. She also has nightmares of subways and creepy people on the train.

5)And finally the nail in the coffin to skeptics. The envelope in her dream during the beginning of the movie says: "To Karen Clavicep Purpurea Ergot Viviane" Claviceps purpurea, cause of ergotism and likely contributor to the Salem Witch Trials. Ergotism is caused by the chemicals in the fungus called ergot (pronounced AIR-got). Consumption of foods contaminated with ergot and ergot derivatives may cause vomiting, diarrhea, hallucinations, and may lead to gangrene in serious cases.(taken from http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/toms_fungi/oct99.html)

I believe it's signed Viviane because of the guilt she felt for letting her go before she was ready (Viviane was the asian girl who killed herself, likely from eating the muffins in the hospital)

Lastly also taken from (http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/toms_fungi/oct99.html) in case you are afraid or too lazy to click a link.

So what does this all have to do with the Salem Witch Trials, which took place near Salem Massachusetts in the late 1600's? There have been various attempts to explain those witch trials. None of them are more logical and interesting than the hypothesis of ergot poisoning, caused by Claviceps purpurea. The behavior was not identified as witchcraft until 1691, and this was just the beginning of the problem. Many people were sent to trial and often convicted and imprisoned. By September 1692 twenty men and women had been put to death for their crimes. All of the accused had similar symptoms: manic melancholia, psychosis, delirium, crawling sensations of the skin, vertigo, headaches, vomiting and diarrhea. All of these are symptoms of ergot poisoning, and it is likely that at list the initial hysteria was started by Claviceps purpurea infecting the grains of rye. This was chronicled in an article (Science 192:21-26, 1976) by Linnda R. Caporael called "Ergotism: The Satan Loosed in Salem?" She provides compelling, although circumstantial, evidence that the Salem witch trials coincided with a weather period that would have produced large quantities of ergot on rye, which was grown in the lowlands in that area.

[–] eternalknight 16 years ago

very interesting post that give a little more meaning to this bad acted movie.

[–] JaffaCakes 16 years ago

I think you got it pretty much spot on. I didn't really notice the beginning was actually the aftermath until you mentioned it. Great observation.

Notice also the book on the stand beside the clock/radio at the beginning (The Demon Haunted World) was the same book Mike was reading on the subway.

[–] user-769 16 years ago

While the muffin theory has a lot of merit, I'm going to split from the idea for a number of reasons. First of all, the logistics of the cult taking over every radio and TV station don't seem to pan out. Regarding the woman's look of understanding at the end? I take that as a throw back to Mike's comments about "If you ever see a demon, look it in the eye and marvel at its very existence."

Now, the muffin theory is also quite likely, but even if the demon's don't exist in that form, it did seem the end of days was occurring on the TV and outside the subway at very least.

[–] ran-20 16 years ago

But what if the radios and tvs are all a part of the hallucination, doesn't mean they were really taken over, but they are just imagining it.

[–] SBL84 14 years ago

We only see what is happening in this area. This cult may not be wide-spread around the country/world. Think of Fight Club. Spoilers if anyone hasn't seen it: They had a couple of members in all of those banks and credit card companies who were able to clear the buildings and blow them all up. They had members in the police department and everywhere else, including restaurants (drugged muffins, anyone?). It's very possible for a group to have people in all sorts of lines of work to accomplish their goal.

It's probably not that difficult for a cult to infiltrate all of the local radio stations and affiliate tv stations in an area. Heck, they made up at least 2/3 of the passengers of that single train. Not even that, they just need to take over the local television providers (comcast, time warner, cox, etc.) and it doesn't matter what the individual stations are doing, it has to go through those companies before it gets to anyone's tv. Just take over those and you can switch every channel to their creepy blood-screen or whatever that was.

It only takes one person in each of those places to take it over. They just sit in the control room, whip out their cross-knife and start stabbing away at their co-workers before anyone even realizes what's going on. Make it 2 or 3 people in the cult working there in any position (security, janitor, executive, operator, etc.) and you can probably take the place over rather quickly, especially at the supposed time of night this was happening. Up until the moment they got the page, they seemed like normal people. Catching people off-guard, and knowing them personally severely inhibits them from fighting back in a very effective manner. If your friend/co-worker/brother/sister/boyfriend/girlfriend etc started spouting crazy sh*t would your first response be "AHHH, CULT MEMBER, YOU'RE BEYOND HELP! I'LL KILL YOU!" or "Whoa, calm down, what's going on, why are you doin-" *stabbed*?

So let's say that area has 3 cable companies, maybe a dozen or so people could probably take all 3 of them over and put up the stuff that was on. Then you've got phone and cell phone companies, electric company, etc. It only takes a few people to take over the local provider of each. It's not like those companies have a questionnaire that says "Do you belong to a cult that wants to bring the apocalypse? and will you use your position to destroy the service we provide?"

They're just otherwise normal people that happen to work at these service companies, when they get their message they put the plan into effect.

[–] AezaFred 16 years ago

I don't know if its the same in America, but I read somewhere that here in Australia, it's easy to take out the power in a large area by targeting a small number of substations. So maybe, if the cult members infiltrated all the TV and radio stations, it would be possible for them to broadcast their messages and then take the power out? That would be sure to cause chaos.

As for what Mike said, and the chick at the end, didn't he finish the sentence by saying something along the lines of 'or you're very sick and should go to the hospital', implying that your two choices are the existence of an afterlife or serious hallucinations?

So the muffin theory seems plausible to me. If you get enough people panicking I guess it would be possible to get widespread destruction of a city, especially if you collected all your cult members in one area.

Just my two cents anyway (hope it makes sense, its very early in the morning!)

[–] jlbwells 16 years ago

Then what about Mike? If the muffins theory is correct he and the girl should be alive, in particular youd think hed she her again cause they seemed to have a connection.

[–] FirstBlood1982 16 years ago

"Then what about Mike? If the muffins theory is correct he and the girl should be alive, in particular youd think hed she her again cause they seemed to have a connection."

It may have been Mike's shadow that was seen on Karen at the end after she opened her eyes, and her smile was a smile of relief...it also may have been (as mentioned previously) her being awe-struck by witnessing proof of the supernatural...although the director is pretty blatant about his intent being the former.

I don't think that the muffin theory really adds up for a number of reasons. First of all, it doesn't make sense that the group would do that since they firmly believe (even if they're wrong) that this is all real. They're not lying about, they wouldn't feel the need to try to cause delusions that would cause people to see imaginary demons if they honestly felt that the world were under attack from real ones.
Secondly, it's established that they don't use guns or explosive devices, and the type of damage we see on the tv and outside the station couldn't be caused just by a bunch of maniacs running around with knives stabbing people.
Not to mention as someone else mentioned how absurd it is that this group could've managed to controll every single tv station and broadcast false images over every single one of them.

On a side note, the not committing suicide thing doesn't make much sense (and I'm not referring to how one personally feels about it, I'm referring to the religious perspective of the characters). It wouldn't be any more wrong according to their beliefs to swallow a fatal pill than it would be to deliberately stab someone to death. If they felt that they needed to die before the rapture, it wouldn't really matter if they were stabbing one another or swallowing the pills.
Another thing about the group is they're most likely Reborn Christians based on the Voice of Hope name, yet they keep crossing themselves, which is a Catholic tradition. Just a few things that showed that the director doesn't really understand much about the religion he chose to center the film around.

Overall I think it's a very well made film for the resources they were working with, even if I strongly disagree with the directors intentions.

If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make your signature!

[–] RevZoom 16 years ago

1.) "They're not lying about, they wouldn't feel the need to try to cause delusions that would cause people to see imaginary demons if they honestly felt that the world were under attack from real ones. Secondly, it's established that they don't use guns or explosive devices, and the type of damage we see on the tv and outside the station couldn't be caused just by a bunch of maniacs running around with knives stabbing people."

I agree that the "foot soldiers" with knives and swords are --for the most part-- true believers.... But I think that it's a little naive to believe that their leader is as pure of heart. I think history has proven that not every leader (be it church, religion, cult, military, or government) always practices what they preach, and are never without a secret agenda

I would go so far as to say that if you can rationalize a case for mass murder to save innocent souls, blowing up a few building wouldn't be that big of a stretch. Plus, the more people who believe that it is truly the end-times, the easier it would be to save those said souls, right?

Same could be said for the need of the "muffins" both for followers and non-church members alike. Church members would see the visions as reassureing signs from God, and outsiders would only add to the Apocalyptic chaos they are looking to cause.

2.) "Not to mention as someone else mentioned how absurd it is that this group could've managed to control every single TV station and broadcast false images over every single one of them. "

Look at Joel Osteen's church in Texas. Seven million followers all over the world, filling 16,000 seats a week in Houston alone, and with a bank account worth tens (if not hundreds) of millions of dollars.

I don't find it outside the realm of possibility that Joel, with his millions of dollars and ardent followers, could take over a local news channel or two. What if the "End-Times" weren't as worldwide as they looked?

3.) "It may have been Mike's shadow that was seen on Karen at the end after she opened her eyes, and her smile was a smile of relief."

Because of the movie's beginning sequence which included the scar Karen will receive later, and Mike's book on the end-table (a book about the importance of skepticism and science at the end of the last millennium), I believe that the shadow Karen sees in the shower is also Mike. She opens her eyes at the end of the movie, and finds not demons, but Mike standing there. His book on the table --titled The Demon-Haunted World, of all things-- indicates to me that they've moved in together after surviving the "end-times".

-Just my two cents.

[–] ununchanged 14 years ago

couldnt agree more.

By the way the suicide thing is a fact. Especially in christian believe systems suicide is one of the worst sins possible... that's why they poison each other instead of themselfs, it defenitly adds up to the logic =) and thanx for noticing the skeptics book... i guess the big point of the movie is to show how fast we all buy into supernatural believes...

It's no big deal to take over a local TV station or disrupt radio frequences by the way, and defenitly no problem for a big cult. Also the fact, that nobody through the whole movie ever got harmed or even was touched by any of the "demons" should make you realize they can't be that real.

[–] pdemonte987 12 years ago

Very good sir!

[–] fireball718 14 years ago

I so agree with our last point. I find that many films critical of Christianity demonstrate little or no understanding of the subject. The most common example by far involves characters referring to the book of "Revelations" when it's actually singular ("The Revelation"). This suggests that a screenwriter purporting to understand biblical Christianity enough to criticize it didn't even bother to open the book!

[–] ununchanged 14 years ago

This movie is hardly critical to christianity in general. It's about overblown faith and how fast we accept supernatural believs when things look grim.

[–] SBL84 14 years ago

Right after the "look it in the eye and marvel at its very existence" line he says "because you're seeing proof of an afterlife.... or proof that you're hallucinating and should see a doctor, whichever one works for you."

So it doesn't matter either way.

And the broadcast on the TV is from the leader of the cult. Who's to say the images on the TVs behind him are even of what's going on at the time and not footage from a movie or riots from the past? Also, with crazy people running around stabbing people, and the power going out, riots can be expected. Average people are freaking out and taking advantage of the situation, as well as average people that have eaten any of those muffins running around setting fires and rioting.

I didn't see any demons specifically running around on those screens or outside the subway near the end. So there's a difference between "end of days" and "crazy people and drug induced riots."

Riots always have people setting things on fire and attacking each other, breaking into places, looting, etc. There have been dozens of riots around the world in just the past 10 years that probably looked just like that. Maybe if on those screens it showed specific things, like the Eiffel Tower, Buckingham Palace, Empire State Building, The Kremlin, Sydney Opera House, etc. to show that these riots were taking place all around the world there would be some merit to the "end of days" theory and not just one city being plagued by riots because a religious extremist brainwashed his members and drugged a few other members of the population causing their delusions.

[–] MikeHunt1075 11 years ago

For all we know, it could have just been her hallucination of what she saw on TV and heard on the radio. She only believed others could see it, too.

Oh, P.S: Giving each other a pill because they beleive suicide is a sin... are they stupid enough to beleive murder, even voluntary euthanasia, isn't?

[–] ununchanged 14 years ago

wow thanx for this post, i think your absolutley right. I didn't notice the scar in the beginning, but yes it is obviously the one she got in the end of the movie.
She's traumatized, suffering a nightmare about the subway then showering to "wash away" the fear or the survivors-guilt.

The movie doesn't end with a scream, and I too think she looks reliefed the at the end of very last scene, not terrified. At least it defenitly doesn't seem like she stills sees demons. It might be the moment she realizes it's over but still is gonna leave her disturbed forever.

And it's pretty obvious that the violent, not-so-devoted, rapist, cult-member didn't eat the muffins because he knew they were tampered with. The "they're pretty addictive comment" gives it away. Also him saying that "I can't see the signs of god" gives away that he's not really a believer (tho he is possibly trying to). He uses the cult as an excuse to live out his lust for violence and to some degree he knows that.

But above all, the scar, defenitly gives away that there was no apocalypse. She is still alive after it. Everything else hardly makes any sense. Thanx for noticing this, i didn't.

One thing i'm not entirely sure about is this: Is the girl commiting suicide in the subway actually the asian girl from later on? Commits suicide because she cant cope with the events?

[–] SBL84 14 years ago

That's Viviane. That's the first event in the story chronologically.

Before the movie: Viviane was a patient in Karen's hospital, who was having delusions about monsters she saw. She was also probably eating those muffins. She gave an envelope to Karen full of drawings she made about those monsters.

-Viviane kills herself by jumping in front of the train in the subway station because of these delusions.

-Karen learns of Viviane's suicide at the station.

-Karen eats one of the muffins.

-Karen goes down to the subway and hallucinates Viviane's body on the tracks reaching out for her. This is probably part drugged-muffin part emotional.

-The rest of the stuff in the movie happens up until the end.

-Karen has a nightmare about the events of what happened throughout the movie on a train car with monsters and Viviane's letter with different writing.

-Karen takes a shower, still freaked out about her nightmare/the events throughout the movie.

[–] masuka-fan 12 years ago

You really thought the two Asian girls looked at all similar?

[–] SBL84 14 years ago

5)And finally the nail in the coffin to skeptics. The envelope in her dream during the beginning of the movie says: "To Karen Clavicep Purpurea Ergot Viviane"

Yeah, I just watched it again, I didn't notice that the first time. I didn't notice that the letter was any different. In real life the letter says "To Karen: Soon they will reveal themselves - Viviane" written in her crazy muffin-induced delusions. But at the very beginning when she sees it in her nightmare/hallucination/whatever it says the term for the hallucinogen that caused the delusions, which she must have learned afterward.

Whether it was signed Viviane in the dream because of guilt I'm not sure of. I think it was just a way to tie the two things together. The letter in real life with all of the delusional drawings were a basis for it being in the dream. The different writing was a subconscious note in her head about it not being real, and the true cause of the hallucinations.

[–] meghindo 12 years ago

About the riots & the so called apocalipse , after the shower scene, it clearly says at the radio , that all of them where just suicide bomber attacks
It also says that a number of people who where "under the influence" where found dead outside their homes.
So there was no apocalipse, yes the beginning is actually the aftermath of the movie which i'm pleased to hear, that she's doing well :P

Just a bunch of crazy religious fanatics doing what their leader paged them to go.

I'm sad because that they didn't show Mike making it in the end , after the scene with Mike trying to get out of the tunnels, being so close to where Karen was, i was actually waiting for him to show up when the blond guy was trying to rape Karen, but the crazy religious lady showed up :-/

At times i didn't understand the acting, after the blond guy trying to rape Karen in then end, after the whole thing with the crazy lady swallowing that pill & everything, why was she on the ground struggling ? her legs where just fine...she just got cut on the shoulder, I was like...girl...this one just tried to rape you, and that crazy one over there got foam on her mouth, get your ass up from that floor and start running,quit stalling and swiping the floor with your body.

Anyways, loved the movie, horror fan for life

[–] MikeHunt1075 11 years ago

Adding to the Salem Witch Trial thing. The cause of how it happened was growing wheat near rivers or large quantities of water. When the, tide, I guess you would call it, rose up, it covered a large portion of the wheat stems. When it lowered again, the what would dry up, and eventually it became, like you said, a dust that gives the same effect of LSD. It is a theory that is well plausible to not just the Salem Witch Trials, but witch siting all over Europe too. Strong enough winds would blow it off the Wheat stems, through the air, and into near by townsmen lungs, hence causing them to hallucinate and think they saw something, and accused what they saw as Witch Craft, or flipped out and where accused of it themselves.

It also was the same theory used as the premise to one of the Children of The Corn movies.

*Spoilers* (Something no one here seems to notice)

Spoilers (Something no one here seems to notice)