MovieChat Forums > Silence (2017) Discussion > The Problem With Any Organized Religion

The Problem With Any Organized Religion

posted 8 years ago by oceanlite06
12 replies | jump to latest

Is that it no longer becomes about personal faith, a personal relationship with one's god or higher being. It's entirely about spreading the faith to grow the religion. These religious missions become about increasing the power of the church and not about saving souls. You heard it in the discussions between Rodrigues and The Inquisitor. It's a power struggle between the leaders of two different faiths; each want to maintain control of their population and create (manipulate) converts out of others. Ferreira said it best when he described the superficial faith of the Japanese converts, that they're not really teaching Christianity in its root form, but a replica of it that becomes solely about the repeated chants and tangible symbols. The Japanese don't truly understand Christianity, but as long as Rodrigues and the Catholic Church can claim a high number of Japanese converts, they consider it a success. It's a numbers game, not a soul saving mission.

The naivety of priests like Rodrigues, who want to believe in their religious institution and that its mission is of a pure and good intent, is highlighted by the end of the film. Forcing his faith onto others in a nation with entirely incongruous religious beliefs was doing no good and actually getting people killed. His unflinching faith in the Catholic Church's mission withstood for most of the film, but in the end, not even Rodrigues could deny the harm it was doing to innocent people.

I'm an atheist, but I have no problem with others believing what they want to believe. What irks me, though, is when those of faith insist that only they know the truth and proceed to badger me about it. It's arrogance that kills it. Claiming superiority over other faiths and those of no faith does nothing to promote the messages that are supposedly at the root of so many religious teachings.

With that said, I thoroughly enjoyed the film.

Television is a vice; film is an addiction.

[–] statuskuo 8 years ago

Agreed.

[–] The_Baba 8 years ago

Very well put. There are things in this movie that are very difficult to swallow. Some might glance over these challenging ideas the film presents. As a person of faith, I often find it incredibly difficult to distinguish having a personal relationship with God with the agenda of people.

http://www.imdb.com/list/_OaGg-zdQKo/

[–] TheMichael 8 years ago

Forcing a way of life onto someone who has done no wrong is one thing, but how is teaching Christianity in a foreign land bad if people are volunteering to be a part of it? Christianity was only doing more harm than good in the movie because the shogunate are slaughtering everyone who believes in it. The film does raise good questions, and it is true that the strict rules of Catholicism were being compromised to gain followers in Japan, but don't they have a right if they want to change their faith? Saying the Japanese should only stick to everything Japanese is a little absurd. It's like saying foreigners should go back to their own country in a way.

I don't think there's a problem with Catholicism or organized religions. Like, the only alternative is an UNorganized religion, and when that happens you get televangelists. A concrete set of rules, like we find in science, sports, work, is always best.

[–] RoIn100 8 years ago

I don't think there's a problem with Catholicism or organized religions. Like, the only alternative is an UNorganized religion, and when that happens you get televangelists. A concrete set of rules, like we find in science, sports, work, is always best.

Well put. Organized religion will certainly have the problems anything run by humans will have given the species imperfections, but it offers something UNorganized religion can't and that is a community -- one that can challenge the personal beliefs when those beliefs become too, well personal, and since the personal is vulnerable to becoming self absorbed the role of community can be to focus one's thoughts beyond just one's one little bubble. It is sometimes necessary to hear something one doesn't really want to hear. That's one of the places growth comes from

[–] Innsmouth 8 years ago

You're way off track here.

Yes, as with all human corruption, the church has been used for imperialistic gains.

But absolutely nothing in this film was about the priests forcing their faith onto others. If you can show me otherwise, go ahead. But all the priests did in the film was try and comfort villagers who willfully chose the faith and were persecuted by their government. And yes, just as there are corrupt people in the church, there are also good and noble priests, like the ones the movie focused on.

It is absolutely mental to claim that Rodrigues was responsible for the harm the government inflicted upon believers. Should we all stop criticizing North Korea too right now because it only makes Kim Jong Un angrier, and in turn he punishes his own people for it? What the hell?

Also, and I am very far away from conservative thinking, but missionaries and spreading the faith is an essential part of the message of Jesus Christ. Christ said to spread the hope to the whole world, not just focus on personal benefits. To suggest that Christians should not share their faith with others is completely contrary to the entire faith.

Arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice: www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhBWDzkqEPY

[–] oceanlite06 8 years ago

You're delusional if you don't acknowledge the history of the Catholic Church and the misery it has beset in many parts of the world with its missionary expeditions. Silence didn't delve deep into the ulterior motives of the state sponsored missionaries, but the exclusive right to propagate Christianity in Japan meant the exclusive right to trade with Japan, which, as we've seen in every other part of the world, usually leads to colonization. Spain and Portugal divided up the world, and wherever these powers attempted to expand their territories or influence, missionaries would soon follow. This is why Japan responded the way they did to the missionaries that began invading their country. The majority of individual priests may have had idealistic and pure intent, but the organized, state-sponsored part of the religion had ulterior, secular motives. This is all well-documented.

So when I say that Rodrigues was naive, it's because he was. He believed in his church and that the church's presence in Japan was only about spreading the Word of God. He refused to acknowledge that those in charge and those state officials in Portugal that sponsored their missions had other motives for a Portuguese presence in the country. The church didn't care if the Japanese people really understood the religion or if their souls were saved. As long as they knew basic recitations and held Catholic symbols in reverence, they considered them a convert. It was about converting as many Japanese as they could as quickly as they could, so the Catholic Church/Portugal could expand their presence and influence in Japan. Ferreira pointed out this fact in his first conversation with Rodrigues, who initially refused to believe it. Rodrigues didn't want to believe that the missions in Japan were about more than spreading a religious faith.

This is why I say all organized religion, as large as Christianity, is a problem. At that level, it's no longer about saving individuals but about expanding the power and wealth of the institution.

Television is a vice; film is an addiction.

[–] Innsmouth 8 years ago

You're delusional if you don't acknowledge the history of the Catholic Church and the misery it has beset in many parts of the world with its missionary expeditions. Silence didn't delve deep into the ulterior motives of the state sponsored missionaries, but the exclusive right to propagate Christianity in Japan meant the exclusive right to trade with Japan, which, as we've seen in every other part of the world, usually leads to colonization. Spain and Portugal divided up the world, and wherever these powers attempted to expand their territories or influence, missionaries would soon follow. This is why Japan responded the way they did to the missionaries that began invading their country. The majority of individual priests may have had idealistic and pure intent, but the organized, state-sponsored part of the religion had ulterior, secular motives. This is all well-documented.

And you're illiterate. I typed exactly that the church was sometimes used for imperialistic purposes. However, that does not mean that the entire church or organized religion is corrupt. Should we do away with Democracy too because it has also been exploited many times by corrupt men? Some, but not all missionaries were used for corrupt purposes. Really is that hard to grasp the concept of some but not all? It seems that religion is often immediately condemned without such context afforded.

And as for how the Japanese "responded" - there is no reason on earth, not one single reason to punish anyone with such sadistic cruelty. Not one. There is no excuse. I am the first in line to rile against Western globalism, but only a very sick mind can think what these particular Japanese authorities did was ok or understandable in any way shape or form.

So when I say that Rodrigues was naive, it's because he was. He believed in his church and that the church's presence in Japan was only about spreading the Word of God. He refused to acknowledge that those in charge and those state officials in Portugal that sponsored their missions had other motives for a Portuguese presence in the country. The church didn't care if the Japanese people really understood the religion or if their souls were saved. As long as they knew basic recitations and held Catholic symbols in reverence, they considered them a convert. It was about converting as many Japanese as they could as quickly as they could, so the Catholic Church/Portugal could expand their presence and influence in Japan. Ferreira pointed out this fact in his first conversation with Rodrigues, who initially refused to believe it. Rodrigues didn't want to believe that the missions in Japan were about more than spreading a religious faith.

Nothing that Rodrigues did in the movie had anything to do with promoting the Catholic church as an institution. He was doing his best to bring comfort and hope to people who were severely persecuted. That was what the heart of the movie was about. The fact that there were problems with the Catholic church on a broader scale does not come into play here. It would be like calling every single last American war movie or movie about an American soldier naive because it doesn't delve into the countless war crimes Americans have committed. Or if they made a movie about the Paris shooting, if you were here explaining to me how France deserved it for meddling in the Middle East. Would that fly?

The focus is on the human story, the passion of these priests, rather than everything surrounding the institution of the church.

This is why I say all organized religion, as large as Christianity, is a problem. At that level, it's no longer about saving individuals but about expanding the power and wealth of the institution.

Well again, this kind of mindset makes me believe you must hate everything in the world. Pretty much every movement of peoples, of beliefs, of political or governmental ideas in human history has brought with itself problems of this nature. There are noble goals mixed in with sinister ones.

Arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice: www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhBWDzkqEPY

[–] oceanlite06 8 years ago

It's not my problem that you wish to gloss over the well-documented abuses by religious institutions like the Catholic Church in world history. It was not just "sometimes" the purveyor of secular, state-sponsored trade with foreign nations and peoples, which routinely led to the state colonization of foreign lands and to the death and disease of natives. It happened ad nauseam throughout the history of Western colonization of the world, especially during the heights of Spain and Portugal's power. You can try to downplay the Catholic Church's involvement in colonization, but it doesn't negate the reality of it.

The fact that there were problems with the Catholic church on a broader scale does not come into play here.

Actually, it does come into play. Ferreira, The Inquisitor, and The Inquisitor's man in charge of translating for Rodrigues all bring up the fact that the Catholic Church, in its arrogance, assumes it can just invade a foreign land and tell the natives that their culture, their way of life, and their belief systems are wrong and that the Catholics have come to bring them the truth and save them from themselves. Ferreira specifically highlights the fact of those that the Jesuits did convert, most have a superficial belief in the teachings; just because they managed to memorize some passages and recitations and they look upon a cross or image of Christ with reverence doesn't mean they understand the teachings and deeper meanings of the faith. Rodrigues, in his naivety, doesn't see this reality. He wants to believe that the Jesuits missions have been a complete success and their teachings understood fully.

The focus is on the human story, the passion of these priests, rather than everything surrounding the institution of the church.

True. The focus of the film is on the human story, and it was very well done. I actually felt deeply for Rodrigues in his attempt to honestly convert the Japanese around him. He actually believed in his mission and believed in his faith. But the thematic undertones of the Catholic Church's larger objective in Japan and the rest of the world is plainly stated in the film. It's there. You can't just ignore it because it paints the institution of the church in a negative light. That's what made the film excellent--its attempt to remain objective about the institution of religion as a whole while highlighting the individual, human struggles of the people who truly believe in the church's teachings and in Christ himself.

Television is a vice; film is an addiction.

[–] Innsmouth 8 years ago

1) Stop missing what I am saying and 2) ignoring the other points I bring up.

I am not "glossing over" by pointing out the fact that there are both good and bad things in religious institutions. I am not a Catholic, and the Catholic Church committed a lot of abuse, but it also the largest charity organization on the planet, has provided humanitarian relief to untold amounts of people throughout human history, and if parts of it have been mixed up with imperialistic ambitions, other parts have genuinely helped human populations in desperate need by providing them both physical and spiritual hope and comfort. Very much also in the "conquered" regions as you describe them. Not just the Catholic church, but also the Hindu religion, Democracy, America, I mean pretty much any major world system has had its light and dark sides. That is not "glossing over," that is context.

assumes it can just invade a foreign land and tell the natives that their culture, their way of life, and their belief systems are wrong and that the Catholics have come to bring them the truth and save them from themselves. Ferreira specifically highlights the fact of those that the Jesuits did convert,

Pretty much nothing of this is in the movie. Not a single scene has anyone "invading" Japan, or telling anyone that their way of life is wrong. There isn't even anything about conversion, at least not in any forced way. The story is about two priests who go over to search for their kidnapped teacher, and at the same time try to help persecuted minorities.

Again, and you keep ignoring this, but it would be like me calling "Lone Survivor" or any other movie where US military are painted as heroes a film about a bunch of brainwashed American radicals spreading "Democracy" and exploiting impoverished people, with Islamic fighters bravely defending their homeland from foreign invaders. Even though elements of that, in a certain context, are true, it would be a ridiculous opinion of the movie, as it completely misses what it's really about. Same regarding Silence.

As for Ferreira's claim that the Japanese didn't really understand Christian theology, which you think makes Rodrigues "naive" because he doesn't "see this reality" - this is an extremely complicated subject matter, but no, the conclusion is not that the Japanese Christians were not "real" Christians or anything of the sort. All throughout the world, including to this day, belief in Christianity is fused with a great number of other traditional local beliefs and understandings of the world, to various extents that do not align perfectly with Western Christian thinking, and to which the Catholic Church has different responses as to what is too much of a diversion, and what is not.

Japanese Christians and their understanding was indeed a complicated matter at that time period, but their struggle, in parts, to understand some of what the missionaries were teaching, did not mean that they could not, in time, grow into a more proper understanding, and it 100% did not mean that Ferreira was right that the faith has been a failure in Japan.

Arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice: www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhBWDzkqEPY

[–] oceanlite06 8 years ago

I don't have time to keep responding to the novels that each of us are writing back and forth. Suffice it to say, I don't agree with your points at all. The topic of this thread is "The Problem With Any Organized Religion." The history of abuses by the Catholic Church is ample evidence of an institution that's grown so large it believes it can do whatever it wants and justifies those crimes by pointing out the good it also does. Just because the Catholic Church has done good in the world before doesn't mean its abuses should be swept aside and ignored. Its abuses are very problematic. It's too big for its own good. Any institution that becomes so power and money hungry that it begins practices that harm people has become problematic. This is true of religion, government, etc.

The film also has numerous examples of Japanese converts who ask the priests questions or make statements about the theology that cause the priests to question whether they truly understand what they've been taught. From beginning until the end, this is the case. Rodrigues is a player in these situations, as well. Yet he still firmly maintains that the Japanese do understand the teachings, fully, and that they're not just showing loyalty to the priests. That they're sacrificing their safety and lives for Christ. Yet examples keep arising that suggest the opposite. Rodrigues is indeed naive. Ferreira's point isn't that all converts misunderstand the teachings, but that a good number of them do--and that the Catholic Church doesn't really care if they understand the theology as long as they can claim them on their roster. Because the missionaries are about helping Portugal gain a foothold in Japan. This is detailed very plainly by both Ferreira, The Inquisitor, and The Inquisitor's translator to Rodrigues. I'm not making this up here.

And really? You're going to take my "invading" comment literally? Obviously I didn't mean a literal invasion by an army of Jesuit priests. Give me a break, man. You know what I meant by invasion. It's the same kind of invasion as a foreign insect being introduced into a new ecosystem. The insect them changes and destroys a lot of that new ecosystem because the insect doesn't adapt to its new environment--it makes the ecosystem adapt to it.

Television is a vice; film is an addiction.

[–] diamond_suave 8 years ago

Agree

[–] KyleH87 8 years ago

As a Christian, I can agree with you for the most part. This is the problem with so many American Christians who want America to be a "Christian nation" or think that it ever really was, is that they don't really know what that means or what it entails because they don't know their history. When Jesus said to preach the gospel to every creature, he wasn't talking about building numbers or the growing the church as an authoritative institution that becomes all about power and politics, yet that is exactly what we've seen ever since the Christian conversion of the Roman Empire.