Angier kills himself again and again! - The Prestige (2006) Discussion

[–] yurenchu 9 years ago

There is no "newly created clone". After each duplication both Angiers (the teleported one and the non-teleported one) are equally the original Angier.

The biggest clue? Tesla says "they are all your hat, Mr. Angier".

However, the teleported Angier and the non-teleported Angier are separate entities (with separate "consciousnesses") after the duplication, so of course the teleported one does not feel what the other is experiencing in the watertank.

But I agree with you about the symbolic self-flagellation. And by the end of the movie, of course Angier is dead: he was shot by his duplicate during the first Machine test, drowned under the stage during the audition before Ackermann and during each show, and was shot by Borden in the final scene of the movie. There is no surviving Angier.

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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[–] Semisonic 9 years ago

I think that what OP meant to say is that the guy who enters the machine to perform the Transported Man trick ends up dead by the end of it. So yeah, your clone appears somewhere else, but the "original you" gets to die by a horrible death.

Good job on the screenwriter's part, but still hard to believe that any sane man would willingly kill himself just for the sake of revenge.

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[–] yurenchu 9 years ago

I think that what OP meant to say is that the guy who enters the machine to perform the Transported Man trick ends up dead by the end of it. So yeah, your clone appears somewhere else, but the "original you" gets to die by a horrible death.

Yes, I know what the OP meant, that's why I replied to him by explaining that there is no "(newly created) clone".

Good job on the screenwriter's part, but still hard to believe that any sane man would willingly kill himself just for the sake of revenge.

Yes, that's why that interpretation is incorrect (or at least incomplete): he is not just "killing himself", instead he is "killing himself" and "teleporting himself to the balcony" at the same time; and thereby risking to end up being the killed one.

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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[–] Semisonic 9 years ago

I don't understand that "there's no newly created clone" statement. Angier does duplicate himself, and from the moment of the separation on, those two persons are obviously different. They are in no way connected, the only thing they share is a common memory, but the present feelings and sensations are separate.

So while the "cloned" Angier does behave exactly like the original one, it doesn't annul the agony of the "original" Angier. I'm sure the guy who drowns in that tank doesn't go all happy simply because there's another duplicate of him somewhere else who's doing all fine.

And Angier is not risking to end up being the killed one, he is the killed one. The person who makes the decision of entering the machine ends up experiencing the agony. And there's no reason to believe that Angier is not aware of that. He simply does it because the "duplicated" Angier has the same motivation as the original one (derived from the common memories about the past) and believes that "drowning is like going home".

If this post doesn't make it any clearer then just perform a thought experiment. Imagine that there is a machine that recreates your molecular structure, thus creating a verbatim copy of you, with the same mind and memories as yours. Would you consider that copy person yourself? Would you be ready to die just because there's a copy of you now?

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[–] anonymous1235 9 years ago

I don't understand that "there's no newly created clone" statement. Angier does duplicate himself, and from the moment of the separation on, those two persons are obviously different.

The best real world analogy I can come up with is cell division. When a cell divides, you have two identical cells that are both legitimate continuations of the original cell - not an "original" and a "copy". There are probably at least a dozen things wrong with this analogy, but it's the best I can do.

There's an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation called Second Chances where Riker is duplicated in a transporter accident. The mechanics are different, but the implications are the same. When asked which one is the original and which one is the copy, Geordi explains that they are both equally legitimate Rikers. The closest thing we have in The Prestige to an explanation is Tesla's line: "They are all your hat, Mr. Angier".

They are in no way connected, the only thing they share is a common memory, but the present feelings and sensations are separate.

Are you sure you're not thinking of that old Double Dragon cartoon? There's no reason they would have shared anything after they separate.

And Angier is not risking to end up being the killed one, he is the killed one. The person who makes the decision of entering the machine ends up experiencing the agony. And there's no reason to believe that Angier is not aware of that.

"It took courage to step into that machine every night not knowing whether I'd be the prestige or the man in the box."

Imagine that there is a machine that recreates your molecular structure, thus creating a verbatim copy of you, with the same mind and memories as yours.

But there's no reason to suppose the machine creates a copy using the original as a template to begin with. We have Tesla's line ("They are all your hat, Mr. Angier.") and the fact that he intended to build a teleporter with the duplication being an unintended and unforeseen consequence. We're also not given any evidence positively indicative of, or exclusive to, the theory that the machine creates a copy from the original.

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[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

I don't understand that "there's no newly created clone" statement. Angier does duplicate himself, and from the moment of the separation on, those two persons are obviously different. They are in no way connected, the only thing they share is a common memory, but the present feelings and sensations are separate.

The problem with "the newly created clone" description is that it is based on an assumption that while one of Angiers is somehow "the" Angier, another one is not it, that the "root" Angier, while contemplating the mechanics of the trick and its consequences, must be identifying himself with the dying branch and does not (or at least has no reason to, from the rational standpoint) think of himself as the one who will live through it. This is not so. The surviving Angier *is* a separate being in relation to the dying one, but both of them are *equally* "him" for the one who spawned them.

I'm sure the guy who drowns in that tank doesn't go all happy simply because there's another duplicate of him somewhere else who's doing all fine.

Definitely not. But the guy who plans and devises the drowning, he doesn't see it as the *only* outcome ahead for him, so he thinks he can live with it (pun intended).

If this post doesn't make it any clearer then just perform a thought experiment. Imagine that there is a machine that recreates your molecular structure, thus creating a verbatim copy of you, with the same mind and memories as yours. Would you consider that copy person yourself? Would you be ready to die just because there's a copy of you now?

If I knew for a fact that the recreated copy *is* a recreated copy and not "me" magically transferred to the other place, I definitely wouldn't want to die. As I and other people stated numerous times, Star Trek's beamers are an instrument of murder. But Angier isn't aware of this distinction, even if it were there indeed (which is not, actually, a fact known to *us*. We do *not* know how the Tesla machine works).

__________________________________
Oh my god! They killed Angier!
YOU BASTARDS!!!

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[–] Semisonic 9 years ago

If I knew for a fact that the recreated copy *is* a recreated copy and not "me" magically transferred to the other place, I definitely wouldn't want to die.

Well, i'm sure that we're given enough evidence that the recreated copy is indeed just a copy and Angier is aware of that when he first tests the machine, having prepared a gun in advance, and then kills his clone in cold blood.

You see, it's fairly obvious that a human consciousness is tightly bound to the concept of "self". Self is the aggregation of the sensory information received through the corresponding organs. So the entity that you view as your "self" is tightly bound to your body, and, unless heavily implied otherwise, there's no plausible reason to assume that Angier's self resides in both bodies at the same time.

So when we have two separate material Angiers, both of them may be genuinely considering themselves the Angier, but they still view each other as an impostor. That's why it was so easy for Angier who entered the machine to shoot the "clone". He was simply removing an obstacle, not killing something that he views as himself. And the "other" Angier was very much against that killing, that's why he was actively objecting during that split-second before being shot. Which also proves that, once split, those two Angiers have separate lives and plans on living them.

In my opinion, the line heavily quoted in this thread, "they are all your hat, Mr Angier", only means that the objects that the machine produces are completely indistinguishable from one another, so they could as well all be considered an original. Still, Tesla's aide says that after having measured the radius of the "cloned" hats, which shows a certain prejudice. One that you would not have against the hat which remained in the machine.

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[–] yurenchu 9 years ago

Well, i'm sure that we're given enough evidence that the recreated copy is indeed just a copy

Such as?

You see, it's fairly obvious that a human consciousness is tightly bound to the concept of "self". Self is the aggregation of the sensory information received through the corresponding organs. So the entity that you view as your "self" is tightly bound to your body, and, unless heavily implied otherwise, there's no plausible reason to assume that Angier's self resides in both bodies at the same time.

Nobody claimed that Angier's self resides in both bodies at the same time.

So when we have two separate material Angiers, both of them may be genuinely considering themselves the Angier, but they still view each other as an impostor. That's why it was so easy for Angier who entered the machine to shoot the "clone". He was simply removing an obstacle, not killing something that he views as himself. And the "other" Angier was very much against that killing, that's why he was actively objecting during that split-second before being shot. Which also proves that, once split, those two Angiers have separate lives and plans on living them.

Exactly. And now you're contradicting your earlier statement: "And Angier is not risking to end up being the killed one, he is the killed one. The person who makes the decision of entering the machine ends up experiencing the agony. And there's no reason to believe that Angier is not aware of that." Or do you not realize that the Angier who steps into the machine during a show (who according to your earlier statement knows that he will suffer the agony) is the same Angier who survived and experienced teleportation during the performance the night before? Why would he think that this night the guy who will appear on the balcony a few minutes later must be an impostor?

In my opinion, the line heavily quoted in this thread, "they are all your hat, Mr Angier", only means that the objects that the machine produces are completely indistinguishable from one another, so they could as well all be considered an original. Still, Tesla's aide says that after having measured the radius of the "cloned" hats, which shows a certain prejudice. One that you would not have against the hat which remained in the machine.

We are not saying that one should have prejudice against the subject that remained in the machine. After all, we are not claiming that "the teleported one is the original one, and the non-teleported one is the clone". We are saying that one should *not* have prejudice against the subject that got teleported. And Tesla and Alley realized this after they measured the radius of the teleported hats (if they didn't realize it before).

However, it's not unnatural to have a certain prejudice against the teleported one. After all, teleportation is a risky process; just read the novel! But that doesn't negate the fact that the teleported Angier too is (a continuation of) the original Angier.

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

You see, it's fairly obvious that a human consciousness is tightly bound to the concept of "self". Self is the aggregation of the sensory information received through the corresponding organs. So the entity that you view as your "self" is tightly bound to your body, and, unless heavily implied otherwise, there's no plausible reason to assume that Angier's self resides in both bodies at the same time.

It's fairly obvious for 99.99999% percent of human population who never had their concept of "self" being challenged by something as bizarre and counter-intuitive as Tesla machine that literally splits that "self" into two separate independent "selves". For Angier, though, rules of engagement had suddenly changed, shattering this concept to smithereens and forcing him to deal with the new reality where "self" is not a constant. His answer to it was eliminating an extra "self"... without a distinction which is which. *You* insist on including the concept of "true-self" and "copy-self" into the equation, but the very fact that Angier devised the trick in a way that kills the version staying in the machine shows us that *he* did not share your mindset.

So when we have two separate material Angiers, both of them may be genuinely considering themselves the Angier, but they still view each other as an impostor. That's why it was so easy for Angier who entered the machine to shoot the "clone". He was simply removing an obstacle, not killing something that he views as himself. And the "other" Angier was very much against that killing, that's why he was actively objecting during that split-second before being shot. Which also proves that, once split, those two Angiers have separate lives and plans on living them.

Of *course*, they have separate lives. Once separated, each one has a preference of his own self being the survivor and to hell with other one's preferences. That's why the "Zero" Angier, for whom both of his quarreling spawns are in the "future tension", constructs the trick in the way that instantly makes the condemned branch incapable to turn the tables. He knows himself too well.

__________________________________
Oh my god! They killed Angier!
YOU BASTARDS!!!

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[–] yurenchu 9 years ago

I don't understand that "there's no newly created clone" statement. Angier does duplicate himself, and from the moment of the separation on, those two persons are obviously different. They are in no way connected, the only thing they share is a common memory, but the present feelings and sensations are separate.

So while the "cloned" Angier does behave exactly like the original one, it doesn't annul the agony of the "original" Angier. I'm sure the guy who drowns in that tank doesn't go all happy simply because there's another duplicate of him somewhere else who's doing all fine.

Yes. As I already wrote several times: they are separate duplicates, with separate consciousnesses. Please read my posts before you reply to them, saying "I don't understand...".

They are obviously separate entities, only connected by their past, but they are not different. They have both equal claim to being "the original Angier".

And Angier is not risking to end up being the killed one, he is the killed one. The person who makes the decision of entering the machine ends up experiencing the agony.

No, it's the other way around: the person who ends up experiencing the agony made the decision of entering the machine. However, at the same time, the person who ends up experiencing the applause on the balcony too made the decision of entering the machine.

And there's no reason to believe that Angier is not aware of that.

Many viewers have been defending the same position as you do now, yet at the same time they say they don't understand what Angier meant when he said "It took courage climbing into the machine every night, not knowing whether I'd be the man in the box, or the Prestige." Well, people, maybe it just means that your assumptions about what the machine does are wrong; have you guys ever considered that?

He simply does it because the "duplicated" Angier has the same motivation as the original one (derived from the common memories about the past) and believes that "drowning is like going home".

Yeah? How about the fact that he experienced teleportation when he performed the trick the night before? And the night before that? And all those nights before that, including the demonstration before Ackermann? All those successful teleportations don't come into his personal understanding of what the machine does?

Where in the movie are the concrete clues that Angier thinks of himself as a "clone"?

If this post doesn't make it any clearer then just perform a thought experiment. Imagine that there is a machine that recreates your molecular structure, thus creating a verbatim copy of you, with the same mind and memories as yours.

Irrelevant. That's not what the machine in the movie does. (That's merely what you're assuming that the machine in the movie does.)

Look, we've had numerous lengthy threads where viewers tried to argue that "one is the original Angier, the other one must be a clone". So far, nobody has presented any evidence in the movie that supports the idea that one of the duplicates is in some way "inferior" to the other and has less claim than the other to be called "the original Angier". Please, go ahead, visit those threads and read them.

Would you consider that copy person yourself? Would you be ready to die just because there's a copy of you now?

Those questions apply equally to the non-teleported Angier as well to the teleported Angier. It doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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[–] davedave11 8 years ago

everyone has read your posts --they are wrong. The real Angier was born out of a woman and is dead

the limit of the performance run was 100

did they find out that the 100th hat was defective?

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[–] yurenchu 8 years ago

everyone has read your posts --they are wrong. The real Angier was born out of a woman and is dead

All Angiers were born out of a woman as an English lord: the ones who drowned, as well as the ones who got shot. Yes, they're all dead.

the limit of the performance run was 100

did they find out that the 100th hat was defective?

"They are all your hat, Mr. Angier" - if we'd use our brains we can deduce that they'd found that every hat was as functional and as original as any other in that field (or in the machine).

______
Keiko Matsui & Carl Anderson - "A Drop of Water"
http://youtu.be/kPUENUUuqSk

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[–] MaximRecoil (4843) 8 years ago

Look, we've had numerous lengthy threads where viewers tried to argue that "one is the original Angier, the other one must be a clone". So far, nobody has presented any evidence in the movie that supports the idea that one of the duplicates is in some way "inferior" to the other and has less claim than the other to be called "the original Angier". Please, go ahead, visit those threads and read them.

There are only two possibilities after the machine does its thing:

1. There is an original and a copy.
2. The original is destroyed and two copies of the original are created.

There can't be more than one original, because that is, by definition, impossible. It is impossible in the same way that a circle being a square is impossible, or white being black is impossible, or an infant being an adult is impossible, and so on.

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[–] tinkertippy-279-585479 8 years ago

You're right. Your wording is just more concise than most of the other users that explain the transporter.

Everyone is saying the same thing with different wording.

There is an "original" and there is a "clone", although the idea of there being an original and a clone is rendered moot following the act; in the moment directly following the "cloning" they both have the exact same sense of self. It's all very fascinating.

In the end, one came from the other...therefore there is an "original" for the sake of conversation.

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[–] yurenchu 8 years ago

Everyone is saying the same thing with different wording

No, we aren't.

In the end, one came from the other...

No, they both came from the same place; they are both a direct continuation of the Angier who stepped into the machine. The assumption that there's a hierarchy between the non-teleported Angier and the teleported Angier (supposedly one being the original and the other being a clone derived from the original) is a preconceived notion, and one that is not supported by anything in the movie.

The non-teleported Angier and the teleported Angier are equally "original". Anyone who says otherwise is relying on presuppositions without any basis in the movie. (Or at least, sofar nobody has been able to present any basis for that interpretation from the movie.)

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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[–] tinkertippy-279-585479 8 years ago

Yes, everyone is saying the same thing. It's everyone's interpretation of other explanations, and their assumptions based on that interpretation that is causing so much confusion. If everyone would stop trying to be right and read for understanding, there could actually be some thought provoking discussion about this film. It's not a contest.

For example, my statement that there is an original and a copy does not imply that there is a hierarchy between the two...you made that assumption. I even stated that the idea of there being an original and a copy is rendered moot following the act, because both the original and the copy have the same sense of self...which means there cannot be a hierarchy.

Each time the machine is used, there is an original and a copy, regardless of them being completely identical...without something going into the machine nothing can come out. The copy this time will be the original next time...there is no hierarchy between the two.

This is supported by the hat used in the experiments. All the hats found outside were copies of the original, although they were completely identical, therefore it didn't matter which hat was taken because they were all the same.

It takes courage for Angier to step in the box every night because he's not sure if the box will work. He doesn't know if he will continue his life as a new copy with no memory of the tank, or if he will drown in the tank...gone forever.

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[–] yurenchu 8 years ago

If everyone would stop trying to be right and read for understanding, there could actually be some thought provoking discussion about this film. It's not a contest.

No, if people just stopped thinking in terms of preconceived notions such as "there can be only one original Angier" or "when there's two, then one must have come from the other; one must be the original and the other must be a copy" (which are both flawed presuppositions that don't apply to this movie), then we could get somewhere.

For example, my statement that there is an original and a copy does not imply that there is a hierarchy between the two...you made that assumption. I even stated that the idea of there being an original and a copy is rendered moot following the act, because both the original and the copy have the same sense of self...which means there cannot be a hierarchy.

If A is the original and B is a copy of A, then the reverse is not true: in other words, in that case we cannot say that B is the original and A is a copy of B. This is because the use of the words "original" and "copy" imply a hierarchy between an original and its copy.

If you're claiming otherwise then you are simply using the words "original" and "copy" incorrectly. This is what I've been saying all along: stop using the words "original" and "copy" (in the context of the Angier duplication), because these terms don't apply here and only muddle your own thinking with unsupported preconceived notions.

If A is the original and B is a copy of A, it implies the hierarchy "A came before B and not the other way around". This does not apply to the relation between the teleported Angier and the non-teleported Angier after the duplication, and that is an issue that still many viewers/readers have lots of difficulty with grasping. One of those viewers is the OP, as he clearly claimed that "The original Angier died". Hence the OP did imply a hierarchy between "original" and "copy" (or "clone", or "duplicate", or whatever term they used). You shouldn't try to speak for others, nor should you try and muddy the waters by saying "you guys are all saying the same thing" and by stretching/conflating the meaning of words.

I'm not going to say that I agree with another person's interpretation when it's clear to me that our interpretations are completely different. If the OP had a stance similar to my own, I wouldn't have bothered to reply to him, just with a "me too" message. Because that wouldn't have led to thought provoking discussion (as you claimed), but would merely have been a display of herdlike mentality.

All the hats found outside were copies of the original,

No, they were the original hat, being teleported to outside (and that's an essentially different thing, so stop putting words in my mouth by saying "that's the same thing that I said, but in different words").

That's why Tesla answered "They are all your hat", and not "these are all copies of your (original) hat, Mr. Angier; your hat is inside."

It takes courage for Angier to step in the box every night because he's not sure if the box will work.

That's not true. It wasn't out of concern for any possible malfunctioning of the Tesla Machine that Angier made that "It took courage stepping into the machine..." statement. He knows the "box" will work, he has already experienced each of both outcomes of the duplication at least once. He just couldn't have known in advance that he would land on the balcony again when he repeated the trick (just as how the last-drowned Angier couldn't have known in advance that he would land in the watertank the last time when he repeated the trick), that's why he says "[...] not knowing whether I'd be the man in the box, or the prestige".

______
Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0

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[–] mad_weather 8 years ago

Each time the machine is used, there is an original and a copy, regardless of them being completely identical...

The problem with this statement is that it is not based on knowledge. You do *not* understand principles that the machine is based upon (neither do I, for fairness' sake; Tesla does, but his remarks are sparse, and "they are all your hat" is the closest to an explanation that we ever get). Instead, you cling to the set of familiar analogies you're indoctrinated with - copier machine, file transfer between disks, Star Trek teleporters, Dolly the sheep, what have you. They are all habitual and well-known... but who said that they *correctly* describe what actually happens in the machine? How do you know that your analogies don't deceive you?

Take, for example another analogy: cell mitosis. One amoeba divides into two; one stays in place, another floats away. There definitely *is* an original amoeba, the one that exists before splitting, but is it possible to say that one of resulting amoebas is an original and another is not? What makes you think that analogies above are more adequate than this one?

(Do you object against biological analogies in a physical process? Think quantum probabilities... if you dare.)

Oh, and if you point that the Angier in the machine has the benefit of "uninterrupted existence" while Angier on the balcony has not, this is not true as well. When we see the show at the beginning of the movie, Angier disappears from the machine *before* falling through the floor trap. Also, if you freeze-frame the scene of the cat test, you will notice the moment when the cat is *not* in the machine.
__________________________________
Oh my god! They killed Angier!
YOU BASTARDS!!!

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[–] simon-allsopp-970-954345 8 years ago

I'm enjoying this debate, as much as I did the film, which I rewatched last night.

My theory, is that there is an A, and then there are 2 A's, no B.

Both of their consciousness are equally valid. They both have a shared history and memories up to that point of the copy. The Angier that appears on the balcony assumes he's the original and been transported there. The one on the stage that drowns assumes he's the original.

They both are, it's just perspective.

Therefore he always dies every time, and he also continues to live every time.

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[–] Aurelian (3) 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] davedave11 8 years ago

wrong --- the Angier on the balcony is newly created every time

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[–] yurenchu 8 years ago

Nothing in the movie suggests that. But I'm not surprised that you misinterpreted that aspect of the movie, judging from your newly created thread where you indicated yourself that the movie was too confusing for you.

______
Keiko Matsui & Carl Anderson - "A Drop of Water"
http://youtu.be/kPUENUUuqSk

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[–] StaunchWoman 9 years ago

but still hard to believe that any sane man would willingly kill himself just for the sake of revenge.

But putting it that way makes it seem even better! Crazy, yes, but epic in its own way!

We've met before, haven't we?

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[–] davedave11 8 years ago

"The biggest clue? Tesla says "they are all your hat, Mr. Angier". " you got it wrong Tesla says they are all your hat because Angier owns the machine

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[–] yurenchu 8 years ago

"The biggest clue? Tesla says "they are all your hat, Mr. Angier". " you got it wrong Tesla says they are all your hat because Angier owns the machine

LOL. Nice try, but I don't think so. Otherwise Tesla would have also said "and now you own a cat too!"

The Nolans wouldn't have specifically included this "They are all your hat" line in order to tell us that Angier owns the machine; it was already made obvious that Angier had funded Tesla's research and hence owned the result. (If the scene where Angier discusses his order with Tesla didn't do it, then certainly Tesla's line "you must be curious to see what your money has bought you, Mr. Angier." did.)

Angier's question "So, which hat is mine?" and Tesla's response "They are all your hat, Mr. Angier" was included by the filmmakers specifically to tell us that there's no distinction between the teleported and the non-teleported item; they are both the original item. There's no other (better) plausible reason for the filmmakers to make a point of Angier's question.

______
Keiko Matsui & Carl Anderson - "A Drop of Water"
http://youtu.be/kPUENUUuqSk

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[–] davedave11 8 years ago

wrong

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[–] Ace_Spade (9658) 4 years ago

Very well-put!

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[–] moribund-382-872946 9 years ago

This is exactly the reason why I never would never "beam" with one of those transporters in Star Trek. ^^

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[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

Amen, brother.

__________________________________
Oh my god! They killed Angier!
YOU BASTARDS!!!

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

A misplaced sense of being.

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[–] Trax-3 8 years ago

After rewatching the Prestige, it became pretty obvious that the original angier is dead.

Also worth pointing out is how much Tesla stresses the "cost of the machine".
He is basically asking if Angier understands that he has asked for a suicide machine to be built.

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[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] davedave11 8 years ago

excellent

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[–] Bloodworth79 (5737) 6 years ago

Can the clones have separate consciousness. What would motivate the new angiers to keep performing

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[–] Ace_Spade (9658) 4 years ago

Isn't it equally possible that the machine teleports somebody and creates a clone in place of the original? I'm not sure there's any way to really know for sure. We'd have to know more about the machine and "how" it works.

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