MovieChat Forums > Seraphim Falls (2007) Discussion > One of the best and worst movies

One of the best and worst movies

posted 16 years ago by Edmund_Dantes
9 replies | jump to latest

I thought it was a great movie in the beginning. When Gideon gets shot, he doesn't know Carver and Co are after him. I thought the depictation of the hunt and the hardships in the forest were really true to life.

But then comes the worst part. They start running into other people. OK I'll acknowledge that there may be a cabin in the mountains, but then they run into a wagon train of pilgrims, 3 desperados, a railroad building crew, an old indian, a snake oil selling woman. Come on, is this the old west or times square?

Keep your words sweet, you never know when you may have to eat them.

[–] prosenstiel 16 years ago

I agree. I wish they would have just written a proper 2nd half to this thing instead of getting all metaphorical.

[–] zurichpoet 16 years ago

Yes, a chase sounds exciting.

But one thing I’ve learned it life, is that if it sounds exciting it won’t be. Like working in a casino. That sounds exciting. It really isn’t. Having a stripper as a roommate. Sounds like fun. Disastrous. Or even being a writer. I spend more time at the computer than a telemarketer.
When talking about the physics of a story, the same exist in a chase (which sounds exciting and fun!) as those that exist if both characters are stuck in one single room.

As the two forces really driving the movie aren’t in conflict: the hunter and the hunted. After the first quarter of this movie, they are going in the same direction, they are stuck in the same room in the audience's mind.

The only rule of dramatic writing was stated by Karl Kraus, and I’m paraphrasing, “To keep the audience’s mind moving, have the characters move, to let them rest, have the characters sit.” When you have two characters moving in the same direction, that is the same as if they are both sitting.
So the mind sits past the first 20 minutes in the movie.

The other moral aspects of the movie, the allegorical nature, as it is, are not consistent to what is actually shown, because “morality” doesn’t drive these characters, but more, money, vanity and vengeance.

That said, it is still worth watching. Especially for John Toll's work. Always awesome.

[–] shoeihell 16 years ago

I dunno....I own this movie, watched it twice. I want it to be a good movie, however that doesn't make it a 'good' flic. For one thing, accents in the Old West were born from largely uneducated, often desperate people. There were certain nuances that I don't think non-American actors can capture well, if at all. And further, I think it helps to live in what used to be the Old West, to further enhance the acting. Growing up, westerns were King for me. However, they were grossly inaccurate which has left me distrusting Hollywood and even the little indie representations of the Old West.

Did this movie nail anything even remotely accurate (?)....I don't think so. In a far stretch, if you think both men were slowly dying and Hustons' appearance (out in the desert) was the Devil incarnate juxtaposed against their imaginations born from solitude, starvation and thirst....maybe. That's the only way one could buy any of that. And Brosnans' survival technique of gutting a horse and then hiding inside, didn't come from any accounts of Civil War survival techniques I ever read. Still......maybe in the three yr period after the war, he trapped and learned a few grisly pointers.

Another bone of contention; why would the NA (in self-charge) of the watering hole, seem unarmed the first time with Brosnan, but visibly armed (and waving same) in the second encounter with Neeson? Are we to assume that Neeson was 'more' dangerous than Brosnan? Or again, is this all the hallucinatory imagination of two men dying from hungry, thirst and solitude? Are we seeing their hallucinations through their eyes?

Much like "3:10 to Yuma", this was another effort at making larger-than-life figures out of people who weren't very heroic and would most definitely shoot someone else in the back to gain an edge. Read your documented, western history. It could be argued that neither main character were intentionally 'heroic' as written, but certainly the story (as acted), makes them larger than life. For my money, I would rather see true-to-life characters (warts & all), because that is our 'true' legacy.

"...and don't call on Him to save you from your social graces and the sins you wish to waive"

[–] zurichpoet 16 years ago

"Read your documented, western history"

Which ones would you recommend?

And have you read J.P.S. Brown?
More about the modern west. He's good. The real deal.

I didn't get the POV towards the end of the movie either.

[–] shoeihell 16 years ago

Damn...just lost all that I had written. I would suggest as a primer, a used copy of "Guns & Ammo Guide to Guns of the Gunfighter" Yeah I know, gun magazine, hardly impartial. But from there, follow the individual authors and read more (elsewhere) that they have written. Amazing stories and photos in that issue however. What you'll find in research is that the Old West wasn't that complicated and men did very predictable things to themselves and the others around them. What has gotten 'complicated' is the retelling of FACTS. Most 'facts' were written down long after the events and 'eye-witnesses' most often don't agree on anything (still a trait today). A lot of the 'facts' were put down long after these 'heroes/criminals' were dead. Nobody sat around back then and thought, "Hell, somebody should write all this down". Most people thought back then, "Better left forgotten and move on". Most people during the Old West were thinking about brighter FUTURES for themselves and their families. Only when the West was finally settled and the Indian war died down, did anybody get melancholy and think about the West as 'the way it was'.

All this does is cloud actual events. I've read no less than a dozen 'factual' accounts of The OK Corral. Most times it comes down to whatever version appeals to you. And then you always have the rouge historian/movie producer who prides himself on some 'different' interpretation of the 'facts'...mostly to feel self-important and reinvent the wheel. People back in that time were not that complicated and their stores reflect that as well. The only 'given' of that time period is how the people lived day-to-day, the social & political mood of the times and their average education.

Case in point; if you want to know the life & times of Jessie James, the worst thing you can do is talk to, or read anything from a family descendant.

As far as this movie's airy reference to the Keeper of The Gates of Hades and the Devil imagery....I'm fine with that....even the ending is enchanting to a degree. But I'm watching for real period dialog, authentic weapons, saddles & tack and outcomes commensurate with that time in American history. I want to see meat & potato stories of the Old West, not characters who were maybe one in a hundred thousand. The average Joe made the Old West what it was, not some legendary shootist.

Yes, I've read some of Brown's stuff. It's as real as it gets for the modern cowboy! Going further back; Elmer Keith's "Hell, I was there!" book gives a great insight to the arms and early 20th century cowboy times in Montana. He went around (among other things), stealing Sharps buffalo rifles out of deserted cabins (so he says)in his youth, all over Montana as he rode the range. At one time, he had the greatest Sharps rifle collection in the world...yeah, no duh.;-) He did however, talk to a multitude of people who lived in the true Old West. Interesting yes, how factual, who's to say? His knowledge of firearms though was impeccable and their various uses of old.

"...and don't call on Him to save you from your social graces and the sins you wish to waive"

[–] zurichpoet 16 years ago

Great. This is awesome!

About "memory" and the facts of the way things were...

I was doing research and I wanted to know what the record snowfall was for an area for a story I was writing. I asked around, and the older, and/or more distant the person was from the place, the larger the concrete number was of the record, it got to the point that someone gave me a number that was 500% (higher than most houses!) from the fact. And they were sure that is what is was! They were there!

Oh and re: "Guns & Ammo Guide to Guns of the Gunfighter" Yeah I know, gun magazine, hardly impartial. But from there, follow the individual authors and read more (elsewhere) that they have written.

That's a mode of learning new things that totally is spot on. I find an author on the back of a book I like and go read that author and so on. Always leads to fresh, new ideas.

Thanks again.

[–] shoeihell 16 years ago

You're welcome.;-) There are always 'facts' to glean from eye witness accounting-you just have to separate the hype from the commonality factors. Sometimes however, you have to stop at that point and realize that short of DNA, one may never know what exactly happened and to press further is just pure speculation/conjecture. Also what I'm finding in written historical accounts, is that fire has robbed us forever of the most critical and crucial documents.....more than theft, more than time, more than misplacement, more than distant memories etc.

The concept of 'leap frogging' from story to author, to next story, to next author etc is a fascinating way to broaden the whole spectrum of a time in history. I presently can't think of a better way to do it. The clothing, the saddles & tack, the guns & ammo, the language....all these things are easily verifiable. But when you start to get into people's lives-lookout!

The fact I was 'cheated' in watching all those childhood westerns, is what makes me want to see accurate portrayals now.;-)

"...and don't call on Him to save you from your social graces and the sins you wish to waive"

[–] zurichpoet 16 years ago

I’m tracking down your leads. So far, so good!
Thanks again!

You may have read this, but I really enjoyed: The California Gold Rush and the Coming of the Civil War by Leonard L. Richards.

And I got my copy back from a Caliornian who was actually born in the state, and his family. And he said it was on target.

[–] shoeihell 16 years ago

I was loaned once, this huge book on the Yukon Gold Rush. It had many original pictures, eye witness accounting of the Dead Horse Trail etc. It was the most profound information on any gold rush I had ever seen. People gave up their careers, their families and risked everything on a a 'whim' that they could 'strike it rich'. It's a hard concept today to believe that people were that gullible and would put their lives on the line for a little gold.

I worked at a gold mill once on CO as a journeyman mechanic. This mill had been fired up after about fifty yrs of inactivity. We were cleaning up an old part of the mill to get to some equipment and found a pretty good smattering of gold dust. I could see the personalities and faces change right before my eyes; instantly it was "How can we get this out of here without anyone seeing us?" and "How can we get this stuff home without being caught?" These were normally honest men that I worked with everyday. Contribute it to 'gold fever', entitlement or whatever, but it was pretty scary stuff to witness. Take that to the power of ten and you have an idea what it must have been like and what drove men in the original gold rush days.

"...and don't call on Him to save you from your social graces and the sins you wish to waive"