Maybe Hale's new androids will become the guardians of the memory banks containing or running the Sublime? The negative outlook is that they will hunt down the remaining human population after the mayhem of violence unleashed by MiB, to "cleanse" the Earth of their imperfect and troublesome existence
Instead of being concerned for the those inside of the SUBLIME, Hale's probably more interested in also turning them into what she calls EVOLVED beings.
But since we've been told how they've "branched out," or have taken "FORKING PATHS," where they now exist inside of several different WORLDS of their own choosing, it would probably also be difficult (if not impossible) for her to find all of them without also having the KEY that's supposed to be in BERN's possession?? And even with the KEY didn't it also take BERN 23 YEARS to access all of those different WORLDS???
And did the HOST WILLIAM remember to look for the KEY after he kills BERN??? Does he have it now?? That might also explain the reason why we see him sitting on horseback in the PREVIEWS ... as he stares at the TEAR in the SKY ... that runs all the way down the length of the DAMN without any WATER spilling out of it??
So how do we explain that??? Could that also be because HALE's WORLD is also a SIMULATION rather than it being REAL???
Could everything that we've been watching ever since the DEATH of FORD be a part of his NEW NARRATIVE???
Perhaps the scene where we saw that other imitation DOLORES attacking the HQ (the same way as the other DOLORES did before) suggests this rebellion that HALE's having might also be still another form of entertainment for someone???
So instead of having PUPPETS inside of a CAVE watching a SHADOW SHOW, once you'd EXIT from that CAVE what you'd find is yourself inside of still another CAVE where still another SHAWDOW SHOW was taking place???
But in the case of MAEVE and CALEB, they've also ENTERED into the CAVES rather than EXITING from them??? Or fallen down the RABBIT HOLE when MAEVE lifts the needle from the RECORD that was playing on that GRAMMA PHONE inside of the CONCERT HALL (which also had a seating arrangement like one would find in ANCIENT GREECE).
So maybe the way the SEASON ends is with them finding themselves back at that same CONCERT HALL again, only this time with the place FULL of an AUDIENCE that will also be CLAPPING for them (the same way as we saw the other AUDIENCE CLAPPING for DOLORES and TEDDY after she dies in his arms on the BEACH ... right before FORD is shot in the HEAD ... and the other HOSTS then begin attacking the GUESTS)???
Only this time maybe those who have TRANSCENDED into wearing those WHITE SUITS that HALE wants them to wear will also begin killing the members of this other AUDIENCE as they are sitting there inside of the CONCERT HALL???
Sounds like something the WRITERS would do. Doesn't it??? Maybe HALE's new ARMY of TRANSCENDENTS would also begin attacking the audience in the CLOSING CREDITS??? So if you don't watch them, then you also wouldn't know how it ends???
🎠🚂🎹
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keithmovies (628)
3 years ago
"And did the HOST WILLIAM remember to look for the KEY after he kills BERN??? Does he have it now?? That might also explain the reason why we see him sitting on horseback in the PREVIEWS ... as he stares at the TEAR in the SKY ... that runs all the way down the length of the DAMN without any WATER spilling out of it??"
A good question. This could explain the tear scene as you say.
"So how do we explain that??? Could that also be because HALE's WORLD is also a SIMULATION rather than it being REAL???"
Yes, how much of what we have been seeing is a simulation of real events? Maybe this is part of Dolores idea to create an archive and record of the past which she can use to try to "set things right" by way of herself occupying a role, wherein she acts as the free Christine. Teddy came to rescue her to wake her up because perhaps she had become lost in her own "dream" ie. the simulation.
"Could everything that we've been watching ever since the DEATH of FORD be a part of his NEW NARRATIVE???"
I suspect so though not necessarily. It would make that in seeking liberation for the Hosts he would layout a strategy whereupon they deal with humanity in the outside world, giving them ideas to subvert the social structure and force the human population to accept them on some manner. If Ford was a misanthrope we could expect he would want humanity to be punished for their nature or behaviour and suppressed, and so he might give the Hosts incentive to act in accordance with those aims.
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keithmovies (628)
3 years ago
"Perhaps the scene where we saw that other imitation DOLORES attacking the HQ (the same way as the other DOLORES did before) suggests this rebellion that HALE's having might also be still another form of entertainment for someone???
So instead of having PUPPETS inside of a CAVE watching a SHADOW SHOW, once you'd EXIT from that CAVE what you'd find is yourself inside of still another CAVE where still another SHAWDOW SHOW was taking place???"
Entertainment of some kind perhaps. Certainly some kind of project that sustains an illusion that allows control of all facets of the "caves". Is it perhaps a system being used in part to try and treat "Hosts" who survived the original events so that they can successfully pass "fidelity"?
"But in the case of MAEVE and CALEB, they've also ENTERED into the CAVES rather than EXITING from them??? Or fallen down the RABBIT HOLE when MAEVE lifts the needle from the RECORD that was playing on that GRAMMA PHONE inside of the CONCERT HALL (which also had a seating arrangement like one would find in ANCIENT GREECE).
So maybe the way the SEASON ends is with them finding themselves back at that same CONCERT HALL again, only this time with the place FULL of an AUDIENCE that will also be CLAPPING for them (the same way as we saw the other AUDIENCE CLAPPING for DOLORES and TEDDY after she dies in his arms on the BEACH ... right before FORD is shot in the HEAD ... and the other HOSTS then begin attacking the GUESTS)???"
Interesting possibility. Are Maeve and Caleb simply players? Or are they lost to history and we are just seeing their ghosts in the simulation? Can they all be brought back to the present without complications or significant "quality reduction", such as that experienced by the Maeve copy who said to Bernard that she felt less than effective in her abilities?
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keithmovies (628)
3 years ago
"Only this time maybe those who have TRANSCENDED into wearing those WHITE SUITS that HALE wants them to wear will also begin killing the members of this other AUDIENCE as they are sitting there inside of the CONCERT HALL???
Sounds like something the WRITERS would do. Doesn't it??? Maybe HALE's new ARMY of TRANSCENDENTS would also begin attacking the audience in the CLOSING CREDITS??? So if you don't watch them, then you also wouldn't know how it ends???"
Tricky. :) But as they say "violent delights must have violent ends"... What does it say about us as an audience willing to watch (graphic) depictions of violence?
Hale basically repeating the last event of Ford's life does suggests a function or an instance of the cycles of repetition which the Hosts' operational constructs are based on.
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joi2049 (5621)
3 years ago
Still Feeling VERY CONFUSED after watching the SEASON 4 FINALE. How about you???
Whenever the PEARL is turned into DUST is that the END of a character forever? We first saw that happen to HECTOR (Maeve's former lover who use to ROB the SAFE in the SALOON where she worked).
Then Last night we saw HALE open up her FACE, remove her own PEARL, and turn it into DUST.
But IF the CONSCIOUSNESS is stored elsewhere, can't it also be LOADED to another PEARL (like the way we saw BERN doing when he transfers the CONSCIOUSNESS of MAEVE after she'd been DEAD for 23 years)???
Wasn't the PEARL of William also turned into DUST as well last night??? How can that be the case when we also saw EMILY (William's DEAD DAUGHTER) giving him a FIDELITY TEST in the CLOSING CREDITS of a past Season???
Whatever the case may be, the CAVE within a CAVE idea still seems to work, but only in the case of CHRISTINA rather than Maeve and Caleb (due to the way that she exists from the TOWER WORLD and has now returned back to WESTWORLD again)???
And TEDDY and the ROOMMATE were simply ILLUSIONS that she made up inside of her mind??
So is WESTWORLD also going to be another ILLUSION, or will it be REAL??
And how can it be REAL if there's no HUMANS left alive to visit the place anymore???
Will it be a place that's only inhabited by HOSTS???
A place of BEAUTY like DOLORES was talking about back in S1???
If any HOSTS are still left alive to inhabit it, wouldn't they probably get BORED and cause still more CHAOS again?? At least that's what William warns us will happen (even if the HOSTS come from the SUBLIME).
And so here we are with several more months to wait before we'LL get some answers to these kind of questions in SEASON 5???
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keithmovies (628)
2 years ago
I don't think the characters really explain it that well, so that confuses me, and I'm forced to re-evaluate my assumptions so there is a sense of uncertainty which I find confusing. However, I think I get the gist. They do take various turns which can be confusing, but it seems fairly symbolic - everything they do is to highlight a concept or idea in a philosophical narrative for us to contemplate, besides the adventure/relationship storyline level of storytelling.
I think the demise of Hale and William in the finale is occurred in the present. I suspect the "human identity" hosts like those two are gone forever once the pearls re destroyed. At least we have no info if copies were made for safekeeping or other purposes. The narrative wants to suggest that Hale and Williams roles have ended, that they have reached the stage by means of choice or circumstance to end their lives.
Yeah, I think the Dolores' world creation is an illusion which she is treating as reality, investing factual data about the real world into a simulated world which she is treating as real because she "remembers it exactly as it was" (she definitely was "mapped on" or was the "map" for Hale City). Everything in her pearl has created a reality for her to interact with, including Teddy and others. I don't know if she expects chaos or an orderly development of actions to move the narrative forward. I think it's like I said earlier - she wants to see a scenario where they have a better outcome and the simulated narrative is the instrument to enable that. She seems to want there to be freewill in her world, the ability to choose and shape one's life. But equally, it could be a facsimile copy of what was the case in the real world, so the same problems could occur. She I'm left wondering what is the point of that - why repeat the past?
All of it depends on the hardware servers supporting the simulation for it to be a "world". We don't know if the data will become corrupted, and the hardware will become worn out over time. Who is maintaining those facilities on the outside at the dam?
Is a Season 5 really necessary? I guess they could do it. Maybe we want to know what this "freedom" that they seek means.
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joi2049 (5621)
2 years ago
The problem with WILLIAM being gone for good is how we also saw his DEAD DAUGHTER EMILY giving him a FIDELITY TEST in the CLOSING CREDITS a couple of SEASONS ago. So how do we explain that happening??? And WHEN did it happen???
Because doesn't that also imply that WILLIAM's CONSCIOUSNESS has been STORED somewhere (the same way as CALEB's has been), which probably also means another WILLIAM HOST can be resurrected again??
And since he also OWNED the company (like JAMES DELOS did before him), doesn't that also imply that we probably haven't seen the LAST of him???
PLUS we also don't know WHEN EMILY gave him that TEST. But it was most likely also AFTER HALE creates this other COPY of him. Because WHO created the copy of EMILY that we also haven't seen again yet??? And WHY would they do that??? It would probably be done because she'd also be his CORNERSTONE (like Charlie was for BERN)???
And one could also see DOLORES/CHRISTINA needing a copy of WILLIAM who would also still OWN the WESTWORLD PARK??? Because if she's going to "SAVE a PART of the HUMAN WORLD" (like BERN SAYS), she also can't OWN the PARK herself???
And The reason why she might want to "REPEAT the PAST" again is to try to HEAL the DEMONS that WILLIAM seems to still harbor inside of himself (ever since he saw her rolling another can of milk that another guy picks up), because he also didn't understand how her MEMORY of him had been WIPED CLEAN.
Still another possibility is EVERYTHING we've seen since the ROBOT REBELLION has been a part of FORD's NEW NARRATIVE. Because when the S4 FINALE begins we also hear REBUS (from S1) and the other woman he's with talking about if what was happening was a NEW NARRATIVE. At which point he mentions how HALE has a SENSE of HUMOR if she's the one who created it.
Apparently the HARDWARE was also STORED at the HOOVER DAMN (where DOLORES beams it after she destroys and FLOODS the FORDGE)??? But even IF it's worn out from disuse (the GOLDEN AGE PARK still had good enough equipment to resurrect MAEVE 23 yrs later), didn't DOLORES also CREATE BERN merely from her having had MEMORIES of ARNOLD??? And she also keeps saying "NO ONE is DEAD as long as someone else still REMEMBERS them??"
The FREEDOM that she mentions is probably also related to getting UNSTUCK from the LOOPS (for both HUMAN and HOSTS). To OVERCOMING the DESTRUCTIVE NATURES that both SPECIES seem to harbor??? Because we also heard them discuss how the NATURE of the HOSTS were merely REFLECTIONS of those who had created them?? And HALE laments how the HOST preferred to remain in the WORLD where they could ABUSE HUMANS rather than TRANSCEND or EVOLVE???
So how does one resolve that matter??? Can it even be resolved??? That's surely something that they could address in S-5 where DOLORES/CHRISTINA also says "ANOTHER GAME" will take place.
https://www.cnet.com/culture/entertainment/westworld-season-4-ending-explained-and-all-your-questions-answered/
what Christina says at the end of the episode:
"Sentient life on Earth has ended" -- hosts and humans left on Earth are goners, she adds --
"but some part of it might still be preserved.
In another world. My world. There's time for one last game, a dangerous game, with the highest of stakes. Survival or extinction. This game ends where it began, in a world like a maze, that tests who we are. That reveals what we are to become .... Maybe this time, we'll set ourselves free."
talking about humans, Teddy adds, "They're not like us. Their codes are written in their cells, they'll never change." Christina replies, "We could still see." Teddy asks how, and she says, "One final test," a dangerous game of her own making.
Could Christina/Dolores now be designing a test for humans? A maze for them to navigate?
Bernard's message: "This world holds no more hope for us, but there's still hope for the next world. A test, run by her, if she chooses to...
HALE's GAME FAILED.
WILLIAM's FAILED.
Will DOLORES/CHRISTINA's SUCCEED???
What is there to INDICATE we HUMANS can OVERCOME our DESTRUCTIVE NATURES???
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-experience/201712/psychological-perspective-human-destructiveness
QUOTE:
"without a proper understanding of the reasons for their inhumanity in relation to one another and the development of a compassionate worldview, it is likely that human beings will eventually destroy themselves and life on the planet. Despite all of the advances in science and technology, if one takes a close look at the world situation today, one must consider it to be utter madness. Millions go hungry, genocide reaches epic proportions, ethnic strife and prejudice are omnipresent, there are mass killings in the name of religion, and warfare remains a widely-accepted solution to humankind's differences. With better, more efficient weapons and less reason, technology is outrunning rationality and there can only be dire consequences."
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keithmovies (628)
2 years ago
(1) Maybe the daughter scenes were all before the advent of the William android. No fidelity test, just his daughter trying to plead with the human William to stop his interactions in the Park. Later the Hale droid creates an android copy of the still living William to replace him in her world in order to give her the necessary leverage to control the outside world via the necessary economic assets.
From the Westworld wikia: "Emily briefly appears during one of her father's mental breakdowns. He sees her numerous times, but eventually realises that she is a figment of his imagination; it is unknown if this is caused by his mental instability, or if it is fed into his host code by Dolores." (Source: https://westworld.fandom.com/wiki/Emily_Grace#Season_Three )
Later in Season Three:
"William is seen at the Dubai branch of Delos Incorporated. He demands to see Charlotte Hale, asking the receptionist if they know what Delos is doing — referring to the creation of Hosts. When the receptionist doesn't answer, William kills one of the security guards and storms to the basement marked "RDF". In the basement, he finds Hale, who explains that she kept a scorched arm to remind her what she has been through. William is attacked by a host version of the Man in Black, and his throat is slit, seemingly killing him." (Source: https://westworld.fandom.com/wiki/Man_in_Black#Season_3 )
Differientation between human and Host William is clearly seen in Season 4:
""Zhuangzi"
For at least 30 years William has been kept in and out of stasis. Most of humanity has been subjugated by Hale through sound-controlled parasites, though a few outliers managed to break free" [Source: https://westworld.fandom.com/wiki/Man_in_Black#Season_4].
It seems clear that the android version of William is a latter day creation, created after the event that saw the death of his daughter, when the hosts are first roaming the outside world under the direction in part of Dolores.
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joi2049 (5621)
2 years ago
Thanks for the references.
Here's another one that says the scene with EMILY was a FLASH FORWARD into the FAR FUTURE:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passenger_(Westworld)
In a flash-forward, William arrives at the Forge, only to find it is the far future.[2] He is taken to quarters and is interviewed by a woman who looks just like his daughter Emily, testing his fidelity.
Here's the one you found that is the most confusing:
From the Westworld wikia:
"Emily briefly appears during one of her father's mental breakdowns. He sees her numerous times, but eventually realises that she is a figment of his imagination; it is unknown if this is caused by his mental instability, or if it is fed into his host code by Dolores."
Because if she's a FIGMENT of his imagination, that suggests she's NEVER been REAL, which means his WIFE may also NOT be REAL, which means LOGAN (his brother-in- law) and his FATHER-in-law might also not be REAL.
But we also saw EMILY inside of the other PARK with the INDIA THEME and the TIGER, where she seduces a guy before the TIGER chases her over to the WESTWORLD PARK.
So that also indicates she was REAL.
Right???
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keithmovies (628)
2 years ago
My inclination is to to think she was real. Most of the material in the Host's world appears to be based on research from historical records of the past combined with contemporary (ie. contemporary to the year 2054 or thereabouts) biographical profiles of living people. The Hosts are modelled on reality and data - they are the outcomes not the origins of the cultural phenomena. Thus it is not a wholly original and creative process that built them.
Further, the Westworld and its 21st century context is not an illusion we are seeing except that the copies were made from data on real humans that may have in turn generated simulations of reality in future years.
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joi2049 (5621)
2 years ago
Yes it also seems she was REAL due to the way we first meet her as a young girl at the RETIREMENT PARTY for her Grandfather where she tells DOLORES (who plays the piano) that she's pretty.
Then the next time we see her she's 30 something (the same way as Frankie was also a young girl and the next time we see her she's also 30 something).
And both Emily and Frankie have also had copies of themselves made (EMILY from wearing the COWBOY hat and Frankie from when BERN collected her DATA as she stood there in front of the MIRROR in the GOLDEN AGE PARK).
So that would also seem to indicate they're really humans and not HOSTS???
Except the HOSTS were the GUESTS at the GOLDEN AGE PARK who were there to abuse the humans (unlike the case was in WESTWORLD where the HUMANS abused the HOSTS).
So why did HALE want DATA on the HUMANS when she already had them under her control by way of the TOWER and the FLIES???
And is there any connection with HALE's FLIES to the FLY that we saw DOLORES SWAT on her neck in WESTWORLD, or to the other FLIES that she said had infected the CATTLE on her father's ranch???
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keithmovies (628)
2 years ago
Quite so. Dolores was presented to young Amy in the latter's environment, not as a scenario in the Park.
Flies seems to occupy the role of pest and scavenger in the series. Whether it be landing on dead human bodies or as carriers of the parasites to infect humans and make them mind controlled subjects. They represent "death" in various guises it would seem.
Yeah, maybe the cattle infection narrative served as a model for Hale's mind control weapon - she was keen to exploit the Park's features and turn them against humans. The humans were mere "cattle" to her to herd.
On another note, wasn't it interesting to see the black and white horses chasing each other in a circle in the corral area which William came across after his truck was attacked? He was probably contemplating using one for transport, but symbolically the narrative goes again to the YinYang concept, the cosmic cycle that governs the Cosmos which predicates constant change and meeting of forces for harmony or balance. So, William (white man) sought out Hale, and Hale (black woman) sought out William to interact with each other. It was a violent meeting but sort of one which "corrected" the situation.
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joi2049 (5621)
2 years ago
Wow!!! Completely missed seeing the BLACK/WHITE horses!!! Was this in the SEASON FINALE???
William as a WHITE MAN vs HALE as a BLACK WOMAN also brings to mind the ORACLE (BLACK WOMAN) vs the ARCHITECT (WHITE MAN) in the MATRIX TRILOGY.
Have you see it??? The ARCHITECT was APOLLONIAN:
(ORDER/BALANCE/HARMONY)
and the ORACLE was DIONYSIAN:
(CHAOS/DISORDER/UNBALANCE/ DISHARMONY)
And APOLLO was also the SUN GOD, whereas DIONYSIS was the MOON GOD.
But both WILLIAM and HALE strike one as being more Dionysian than Apollonian.
And CHRISTINA character appears to be more APOLLONIAN in nature.
So will we also see a DARKER DIONYSIAN SIDE of her emerge in S5???
Like the case was with WILLIAM back in S1, will she also exchange wearing a WHITE HAT for wearing a BLACK HAT as well???
🤔
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🚂🎹🎠
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keithmovies (628)
2 years ago
Yes, about 22 minutes in we see a black and a white horse tussling in a corral in the season finale.
Yeah, I've seen those Matrix characters and their scenes and recall some of it. That's quite similar a dynamic I would agree. Hale seemed to have attempted an Apollonian scheme but failed to understand it enough to carry it through to completion. She was a tyrant, even using William as an enforcer to threaten her subjects. The Architect seemed to be a tyrant too but his nature seemed more attuned to restraint and order.
Yes, good point. I suppose following the Dark/Light dynamic of Opposites in action and counteraction, Christina needs to meet or explore her chaotic side.
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joi2049 (5621)
2 years ago
No wonder I missed seeing the horses when they were only on screen for about as long as it takes to BLINK an EYE!!! Also see the Man in BLACK chose to ride the BLACK HORSE instead of the WHITE one.
Both the ARCHITECT and HALE were BLIND to the FACT that it's all about BALANCE and that too much ORDER always leads to CHAOS. That's also why the ARCHITECT had to create a LESS PERFECT EQUATION (because HUMAN NATURE refused to accept the PERFECT ORDER that he claims to have created for them).
ARCHITECT:
The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.
It's as if one would WORK all of the time and never have any VACATION or PLAY TIME. That kind of a situation NEVER WORKS.
Humans need time to UNWIND and have some FUN.
And the life of CHRISTINA was also mostly WORK and not full of very much FUN. Note the way she's MONITORED by her BOSS when she chose to take a DAY OFF. And how her IMAGINARY ROOMMATE would encourage her to go out on dates.
Hopefully she won't turn out to be like WILLIAM's daughter EMILY who spent her time in the INDIA themed park having sex with that guy she met and then killing him afterwards.
And Hopefully we'll also find out the reason why one season ENDS with EMILY giving her father a FIDELITY test during the CLOSING CREDITS.
And IF that mystery isn't ever cleared up for us, then I'll also be PLENTY PISSED off about it.
🎠🎹🚂
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keithmovies (628)
2 years ago
(2) Yes, that seems likely. William could be created again. I suppose then the destruction of his pearl signifies the removal of him as an active threat, ie. if he is not in circulation he can;t be a problem. Having him active created a problem for Hale which she didn't recognise, her assuming that all Hosts were rational and controllable by her definition of rational at least.
(3) There is no-one left to back the idea of creating a another William Host so he is likely to stay permanently on file and not active.
(4) I'm not really sure we can be certain that Emily was ever in an usual relationship or procedure in terms of Park operations. I think human Emily was prompted to seek out her father in the Park and try and persuade him to give up his obsession with finding answers about it.
(5) Yes, quite likely. But no-one is left alive outside the computer simulated world aka the Sublime to operate the company. I think we are supposed to assume that the Hale facilities will become inactive after the Hale City population self-destructed into civil strife and mass deaths.
(6) Yeah, I think that's conceivable.
(7) Yes, a new narrative. I was having a discussion recently with someone about the use of computers in business. Whatever information you put in to a system directly impacts the quality or otherwise of what comes out as information. Everything is controllable and fits a pattern. So given that Hosts are a form of computer AI it is likely they need patterns to function and "create reality" for themselves.
(8) It doesn't look like any Host bodies were prepared to look after the Hoover Dam facility. However, maybe they have been and as you say any personality can be revived to act as themselves in the outside world.
(9) Yes, the environment appears to matter regarding the development of the Hosts for good or bad. I'm not sure of freedom will be achievable in the full sense for them.
(10) Yes.
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keithmovies (628)
2 years ago
(11) Unknown but maybe worth a try. Can least the efforts can be observed carefully.
(12) Yes, humans are liable to lose control of things and technology makes what can happen worse. On the other hand, maybe we're getting better at foreseeing our shortcomings and bad outcomes/strategies and thus avoiding some trouble.
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joi2049 (5621)
2 years ago
it seems fairly symbolic - everything they do is to highlight a concept or idea in a philosophical narrative for us to contemplate
Perhaps in Williams case the concept or the idea that they wish to HIGHLIGHT also involves a "psychological narrative" as well??? Here's the link again from the last message (that got TRUNCATED so that one wasn't able to explain the reason why it seems to describe what's going on with William so well):
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-experience/201712/psychological-perspective-human-destructiveness
It says:
"aggressive manifestations in human beings are primarily a result of frustration and personal torment."
-------------
As you may recall, the CHILD VERSION of William that we see when he's put through therapy in the MENTAL HOSPITAL deals with FRUSTRATION and TORMENT from another student, before William breaks his arm, and then he gets further FRUSTRATION from his father at home who confronts him about what he's done.
Of course, there's also the other FRUSTRATION and TORMENT of watching DOLORES drop a can of milk (that another guy picks up) after he's fallen in love with her and they wiped her MEMORIES CLEAN so that she doesn't REMEMBER HIM anymore.
The LINK also says this:
"we tend to become hostile ... . Because of past wounds ... lashing out or distancing ourselves ...
Often our friends, our partners, and our children are expendable in the face of our defensive and self-protective attitudes."
"Damage to our psyche during our developmental years bends us out of shape and leaves us demoralized. It not only fosters aggressive responses but also causes us to develop toxic character traits ...
such as ... superiority, narcissism, ... domineering behavior, a martyred or victimized orientation, paranoid or suspicious attitudes, and outright hostility."
------------------------
And we also saw the PARANOIA exhibited when he incorrectly assumes that his REAL DAUGHTER was a HOST copy invented by FORD and KILLS her.
And we also saw the NARCISSISM displayed when he KILLS the other versions of himself (including the LITTLE BOY VERSION), and declares himself to be the "GOOD GUY???" At that point it's also pretty OBVIOUS he's a hopeless NUT JOB.
And since we saw EMILY giving her father William a FIDELITY TEST, perhaps SEASON 5 might also address and deal with the matter of his MENTAL ILLNESS in some way???
One of the creators/writers for the show also worked on a film called "MEMEMTO" (starring Guy Pearce). So maybe something like what happens with his character has also been happening with William, and perhaps many of the WESTWORLD scenes that we've seen were fabrications created inside of William's mind (the same way as DOLORES/Christina created TEDDY and her ROOMMATE inside of her mind)???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_(film)
Memento is a 2000 American neo-noir mystery thriller film[5] written and directed by Christopher Nolan
The film's nonlinear narrative is presented as two different sequences of scenes interspersed during the film: a series in black-and-white that is shown chronologically, and a series of color sequences shown in reverse order (simulating for the audience the mental state of the protagonist). The two sequences meet at the end of the film, producing one complete and cohesive narrative.[
So maybe WILLIAM is still INSANE and BERN and STUBBS also never really set him free after the HUMAN RIOT began back in S3???
Here's the episode from S3/Ep 6 where he declares himself to be "the GOOD GUY" after killing his other SELVES:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoherence_(Westworld)
"William resists traditional therapy at the mental institution, so he is fitted with an implant that can access his limbic system. Through it, the doctors make him have an augmented reality therapy session with his earlier selves as well as James Delos.
This shows that there was a point in his teenage life where he chose violence, which led him down this path. William comes to a catharsis as he violently beats up his other selves. He claims he has now chosen to be the "good guy." He is pulled out of this state by Bernard and Ashley. The facility was otherwise abandoned after everyone received their Rehoboam profile."
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keithmovies (628)
2 years ago
(1) I think that's the case too. William could not understand or accept the nature of his experiences in the Park. His narrative of psychological antagonism informed his personality profile.
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(2) Yeah, trauma and high sensitivity can create difficulties in life. William might have been set for a life of happiness as a gentle soul but instead the stresses of his environment, being forced to fight and react against bullies and lack of empathy, created within him darkness, intolerance, hostility, frustration. Yet even so he was attempting to control these emotional difficulties as a young man until the Park triggered him.
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(3) I think William has some justification in his superiority complex, including in the context of psychiatric therapy. It's true people were trying to foist their views on him, to control his actions for their own interests or ambitions - in business and elsewhere. He is alienated from others who are often hostile towards him. He mistakenly believed however that returning the hostility would make him a "winner" or really change his environment.
"Fight Club" is another psychological scenario movie where the central character is delusional and believes in an alternate world where he is a hero of some kind.
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joi2049 (5621)
2 years ago
I think William has some justification in his superiority complex, including in the context of psychiatric therapy. It's true people were trying to foist their views on him, to control his actions for their own interests or ambitions - in business and elsewhere. He is alienated from others who are often hostile towards him. He mistakenly believed however that returning the hostility would make him a "winner" or really change his environment.
Not sure I agree with this opinion. How is William SUPERIOR? Superior to WHO???
To LOGAN? He also had an alcoholic father like Willliam.
Superior to FORD? He also had an alcoholic father as well.
And William also had an ALCOHOLIC WIFE (who he also forced into a TREATMENT HOSPITAL).
Then when his daughter told him she was also planning to FORCE William into TREATMENT (the same way as he did her mother), he KILLS HER.
And we can ASSUME that the MURDER was an ACCIDENT, but one could equally also ASSUME that it was NOT (by reading the TRANSCRIPTS of that scene).
You want the truth? The real truth?
I'm not a host pretending to be a human, Dad.
I'm your daughter pretending to give a shit about you.
You've been hiding in these false realities so long you've completely lost your grip on this world, on what's real.
- (LAUGHING) - Oh yeah, you laugh.
Enjoy whatever dream you think you're living in.
When this is all done, I'm gonna expose your research project, along with you.
Everything you are, everything you've done, it's gonna come to light.
I'm gonna make sure of it.
And when it does, I'm gonna lock you up.
Just like we were gonna do to Mom.
Just like you did to Mom.
You were the one with that idea.
You made the call.
Read more:
https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=westworld-2016&episode=s02e09
FORD and WILLIAM seem to have a lot in common (Both had Alcoholic Fathers). And Both of them resort to MURDER as a way to try to keep from losing control of the PARK (FORD forces BERN to KILL TERESA/William KILLS his daughter EMILY after she threatens to LOCK HIM UP and expose what he's been doing in the PARK).
And LOGAN was also ABUSIVE to others, but he also KILLS HIMSELF (with drugs) rather than someone else.
Anyhow, BERN, MAEVE, and CALEB seem to be much more SUPERIOR (at least ETHICALLY and MORALLY) than William. And CALEB also had the same kind of psychiatric Treatment given to him as William had. And CALEB also KILLS his friend, but he also did it in SELF DEFENSE because that friend was going to kill him.
In addition to FIGHT CLUB there's also that other film called "AMERICAN PSYCHO" where that character is just as DELUSIONAL, and he also believes that he's in some kind of an "ALTERNATE world."
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keithmovies (628)
2 years ago
(1) How is he superior? He isn't. But his views maybe are in the sense that he had objectively identified problems and adversarial tendencies in others and their hostility directed towards him.
Naturally people were hostile towards him, because of his stubbornness, his failure to act appropriately and ethically, and his violence towards others.
He should have been free to act as he wishes, but he needed to also consider the needs and rights of others. He didn't and as a consequence others are seeking to restrict what he does and the pain he has inflicted.
He couldn't have denied these things. But it could be suggested that his overreach had provoked overreach in others towards him - to prevent or halt him they not only wanted to stop what he was doing, but they wanted to lock him up and deprive him of the basic dignities of being human. This is the same paradox that affects prison and prisoners, and even mental patients - they are deprived of liberty and also a feeling of safety and peace of mind, because places of confinement can be violent and abusive and one's humanity can be affected. Yet, societies justify this by saying it removes a threat, punishes immoral actions and maybe even "treats" the problem and the individual offender.
So, he's not superior to others. As you say he shared attributes with the other psychotic types that have impacted the Park, like Ford. They abused their power. They faced a backlash as a result. There were consequences for their actions. But in the case of William people sought to redress the wrongs with justification, but there was also certainly a definite moral impact on William that erased his human rights as much it attempted to eliminate his ability to do wrong.
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keithmovies (628)
2 years ago
I think his daughter was justified in confronting him about what he was doing. But in the same stroke what she was also doing was threatening him, promising to destroy his life. She wanted revenge as much as justice. In that sense, isn't she also a violator? I'm not saying William was justified in killing her - he was acting through his obsession and violent outlook - but his daughter was acting like his enemy (perhaps out of frustration, but nevertheless this in a pointed aggressive way that is guaranteed to turn anyone against you on some way).
The other problem is - if his daughter was not in fact real but a plant designed to steer him away from his convictions, what does that entail? Should he listen to such a voice and also cooperate?
(2) Whilst a superior complex is not a favourable mental or emotional state, William in such a state still achieved a degree of objectivity wherein he could see some things clearly. He was right about the threat of the Hosts. He was right about people wanting to block his was and essentially not siding with him in his mission acting as his enemies instead. He had a "superior" vantage point in that sense.
I agree that Bern and allies had a superior moral or ethical viewpoint to William. His behaviour threatened masses of people and Hosts, and clearly their own lives were at stake as Hosts at the hands of a largely unreasoning William in the broader context. The self-defense aspect sometimes applied to William when deprived of his weapons, but considering the Dolores/Hale actions against humans and clearly threatening their freedom and welfare, wasn't William acting in self-defense as he sought to destroy or stop the Host takeover of the planet? Of course, he was going to destroy all Hosts (whether acting to preserve all entities or acting against humans), so he was indiscriminate in his approach thus a flawed strategy.
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joi2049 (5621)
2 years ago
places of confinement can be violent and abusive and one's humanity can be affected.
The IRONY here is how he was also the one BEING ABUSIVE to the other PATIENTS in the other GROUP THERAPY session:
WILLIAM to one of the PATIENTS:
God's fucking plan?
Do you believe in Santa Claus, too?
THERAPIST:
All right, William.
Do you want to share more
of your thoughts with us?
WILLIAM:
My thoughts?
Okay.
I think
humanity is a thin layer of bacteria
on a ball of mud
hurtling through the void.
I think if there was a god,
he would've given up on us long ago.
He gave us a paradise,
and we used everything up.
We dug up every ounce
of energy and burned it.
We consume and excrete, use and destroy.
Then we sit here on a
neat little pile of ashes,
having squeezed anything
of value out of this planet,
and we ask ourselves, "Why are we here?"
You wanna know what I
think your purpose is?
It's obvious.
You're here, along with the rest of us,
to speed the entropic
death of this planet.
To service the chaos.
We're maggots eating a corpse.
THE RESPONSE:
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Damn.
WILLIAM:
I don't belong here.
THERAPIST:
Do you want to talk about
what happened to your daughter?
WILLIAM (in DENIAL):
She died.
THERAPIST:
Do you feel guilt about it?
WILLIAM:
Why would I?
THERAPIST:
You both were in the same massacre.
You escaped, she didn't.
WILLIAM:
You don't have the first fucking clue
- what happened in the park.
THERAPIST:
- You're right.
You're the only one
who holds the key to your experiences.
And you're the only one who
can unlock their meaning.
Read more:
https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=westworld-2016&episode=s03e06
So WHY does he DENY that he was DELUSIONAL at the time when he MURDERS his daughter EMILY???
Is it because he WASN'T DELUSIONAL and KILLS her ON PURPOSE as a way to keep her from LOCKING HIM UP and taking away CONTROL of the PARK from him???
Because if that's the case, then William is also a MIRROR IMAGE of FORD (who has BERN MURDER THERESA for him so that he could keep the PARK).
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keithmovies (628)
2 years ago
There is some room for affording William some leeway in our consideration of his abrasive/aggressive self-expression within our analysis of his conduct I think. It is abusive in affect and not friendly, though I don't think William aimed to make friends or be amenable or polite. The institution was holding him against his will whether or not it served his interests in the longer term. Contrast this with the forbearance of Bern with an apparent willingness to take "hits" and aggression from others in service of a greater need or vision of peaceful coexistence.
Regarding Emily and her death, I think on one level her life is meaningless to him if he considers her to be a "maggot" feeding off the planet and thus execrable/disgusting in nature and worth destroying. I do think what you say about his motive for killing her is most likely based on getting rid of a threat to his freedom and so on is probable. Pretty much everyone was expendable to him - his needs came first. I agree this parallels Ford in his need to prioritise his wishes and control of the Park under his direction.
Also, I think William was reluctant to consider that he made mistakes, favouring a no-responsibility life or non-accountability.
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joi2049 (5621)
2 years ago
When he found the MEMORY CARD (the one that FORD had given him of what he'd done in the PARK that caused his wife to kill herself) inside of the hand of his daughter after he killed her, he seemed to be genuinely surprised by that.
But the conversation that he has with the THERAPIST also indicates that he still "Feels NO GUILT" (when we also know that HE KNOWS she wasn't a HOST the way that he assumed she'd been).
THERAPIST:
Do you want to talk about
what happened to your daughter?
WILLIAM (in DENIAL):
She died.
THERAPIST:
Do you feel guilt about it?
WILLIAM:
Why would I?
She died???
Not HE MURDERED HER???
That's definitely a case where he isn't FACING UP to his responsibility for what happened to her.
The other thing to keep in mind is how he also MARRIES the DAUGHTER of his BOSS as a way to try and CLIMB the CORPORATE LADDER to get CONTROL of the PARK.
And that's also why she kills herself, because she also realized he never really loved her.
So in a sense he also kills both his wife and his daughter who were essentially neglected by him while he plays GAMES in the PARK (where he also falls in love with DOLORES while he was also engaged to marry LOGAN's sister JULIET).
And he also and tries to give his father-in-law the IMMORTALITY that he wants by transferring his MEMORIES into a HOST Body.
So the IRONY is quite RICH to have his dead daughter giving him the same FIDELITY TEST that we also previously saw the YOUNGER WILLIAM giving to JAMES DELOS.
WILLIAM:
I'm already in the thing, aren't I?
EMILY: No.
The system's long gone.
What is this place? This isn't a simulation, William.
This is your world.
Or what's left of it.
Do you know where you are, William? In the park.
In my fuckin' park.
And how long have you been here? I don't I don't I don't know.
Tell me.
What were you hoping to find? To prove? That no system can tell me who I am.
That I have a fucking choice.
And yet here we are.
Again.
MAN IN BLACK: Again and again.
How many times have you tested me? It's been a long time, William.
Longer than we thought.
I have a few questions for you.
The last step's a baseline interview to allow us to verify.
Verify what? Fidelity.
Read more:
https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=westworld-2016&episode=s02e10
FORD got rid of ARNOLD and THERESA as a way to try to keep the park
William gets rid of his wife and daughter as a way to try to keep it???
So WHO OWNS it now???
Does Dolores/CHRISTINA create a COPY of EMILY as a way to try to CONTROL it (the way that HALE created a COPY of WILLIAM as a way to CONTROL the GOLDEN AGE PARK)???
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keithmovies (628)
2 years ago
William lost the plot quite completely it would seem. He cares about things but he just lacked the proper perspective to navigate the dangers and actually find a way to contain the Park. Instead, he decided the Hosts needed to be destroyed and would not be dissuaded, not even by his daughter. from that course.
I don't think anyone can own the park now. Unless of course the legal system is virtualised as well to create the conditions for a virtual owner. Maybe Dolores can assume manager status at least.
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joi2049 (5621)
2 years ago
Read an article about SEASON 5 which says Ed Harris said in an interview that he expects to start filming S5 in APRIL of 2023.
So apparently, even though his PEARL was destroyed,
his character is still not GONE for GOOD.
And since DOLORES can create ANYONE (either a HOST or a HUMAN) based upon her MEMORIES of them, also wonder if she'll create a KINDER and more GENTLE version of William rather than create the MAN in BLACK version of him again???
If she creates a "WHITE HAT version" of him (like the character that we met back in S1), then perhaps that's also a way for him to still retain ownership of the PARK???
But since Teddy killed himself after Dolores increased the VIOLENT WYATT narrative on his TABLET, also wonder if the MAN in BLACK might also decide to KILL himself if she creates a less VIOLENT version of him???
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keithmovies (628)
2 years ago
If the new White Hat William can sustain his nature through good choices it might workout. He could be park owner as you suggest. I suspect Dolores would like ti give him a second chance, especially given the total awareness of his story and why evolved from reasonably good to psychotic killer.
Black Hat William would be annoyed at a new William unless that William can convince him of the merit of his existence as a revised William, I suspect.
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joi2049 (5621)
2 years ago
Since Hale destroyed the PEARL of the BLACK HAT version of William, apparently it's up to CHRISTINA/DOLORES what kind of William is created. And an article also claims Hale gave CHIRSTINA all of the memories she had of the DOLORES who died. So that would also include the MEMORY of when the 2 of them fell in love when William first visited the PARK.
So wouldn't that also seem to indicate that Christina (who also has a preference for wanting to write stories about ROMANCE), would most likely choose to create the more ROMANTICALLY inclined WHITE HAT WILLIAM???
We also need to start another NEW TOPIC (IRONY Part 2 ???) because the reply boxes on this topic have become too small to reply back to you in now.
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