MovieChat Forums > The Unit (2006) Discussion > Jonas Would Have Been A Strong Officer!

Jonas Would Have Been A Strong Officer!

posted 12 years ago by tbirdman-1
34 replies | jump to latest

There was once a thread that asked, why isn't Jonas Blaine an
officer? And my reply is that Jonas has served in the US Army for
twenty years and reached the rank of sergeant major, pay grade E-9
and then has been reassigned to become the staff non-commissioned
officer (NCO) in charge of a covert special ops unit. So with all
of his experience going on covert missions and being second in
command of his team then becoming an officer could not and would
not be so difficult. If he has a college degree in a particular
field then Jonas Blaine can seek a commission in one of two ways.

1. Apply for an officer candidate program which takes enlisted
personnel who are eligible and upon completion then Sgt. Major
Jonas Blaine would be commissioned a 2nd lieutenant.

2. Or apply for the warrant officer program where upon completing
the required course then he would be commissioned a chief warrant
officer.

The irony of becoming an newly commissioned junior officer is
that of course at his age Jonas would be many years older than
the average 2nd lieutenant who is either fresh out of West Point
or commissioned through the army's ROTC program. Dennis Haysbert's
birth date is 1954 so I'm assuming that Jonas Blaine is around
the same age in The Unit.

Overall if the show had been renewed for a fifth season then I
would have liked to have seen Jonas Blaine been commissioned an
officer and of course still be second in command of his special
ops unit. Therefore the others in the same unit would may have
been promoted as well.

Lorenzo In Sunny Arizona

"I am James "Sonny" Crockett!"

[–] wombat-794-744826 11 years ago

He was actually a Sergeant Major, the top enlisted rank and to become a 2nd Lieutenant would be a demotion. All enlisted men salute commissioned rank out of tradition and respect but that doesn't equate to chain of command. I believe within the rank structure of their unit, fictionally dramatized of course, his second command Max Martini, or Dirt Diver, was an E-8 Master Sergeant and the rest of the guys were E-7s. Rank does come fast in these outfits.

[–] IronHorseColonel 10 years ago

A 2LT outranks a Sgt. Major. Any officer technically outranks anyone E-9 or below. Commissioned and Warranted Officers rank absolutely does equate in the chain of command. Equate is not the right word, equate would be equal. They are not equal.

While there is much truth to a junior officer giving a great deal of respect to senior NCOs, the truth is still in fact that a nugget 2LT who is 22 years old with less than a year in the Army outranks a Sgt. Major with 25 years in the Army.

While it is uncommon for a Sgt. Major to become an officer, it is not improbable and definitely not impossible. And it would in no way be a demotion. Enlisted NCO's become officers all the time. There are many different programs that progress NCO's to officer or warrant officer. Special Forces have a high rate of NCO's that become officers or warrants, more often warrants.

[–] wombat-794-744826 10 years ago

I disagree sir but perhaps we were in different units. I have never seen a unit in which a 2nd Lt rated giving an order to an E-8 or above; it just does not happen. Nor does their station give that authority: a butterbar may be a platoon leader at most, while an E-9 would have a battalion-level command at least. Put another way: if a company has four platoon leaders at the rank of lieutenant, plus an XO (a luxury), none of them rate the First Sergeant (E-8) unless the captain is out and one of them is acting CO. Here's another point: any E-8 would be taking a reduction in pay AND authority to become an O-1, so unless they want to do another 10 years to make Major, why bother?

[–] IronHorseColonel 10 years ago

Oh is that so than what unit where you in? 💩 Mine should be obvious as should my rank. You can't disagree. These facts are not my opinions and these facts are not up for debate by rodents. This is complete and utter nonsense. You are playacting. The best thing you could do at this point is to keep your mouth shut and keep your eyes and ears open. The US Armed Forces is universal in this matter across the board regardless of branch and regardless of unit.

A 2LT surely does have the authority to give an order to any enlisted rank. An E-9 does not hold command in any capacity. The best an NCO can do is NCOIC, the IC portion standing for in-charge. If a 2LT is a Platoon Leader it is unlikely that there will be any enlisted in that platoon above that of SFC. The scope of an Officers authority however does stop at who is directly in his charge. The same Platoon Leader may visit the Company HQ where there will surely be a Company First Sgt., who that 2LT will also outrank and if need be he can give orders to said First Sgt. The very same Platoon Leader may visit the Battalion HQ where there will be a Battalion Sgt. Major, who can also be given orders by the 2LT.

Put another way: if a company has four platoon leaders at the rank of lieutenant, plus an XO (a luxury), none of them rate the First Sergeant (E-8) unless the captain is out and one of them is acting CO.

Again bullshvt. Respect is a given but, officers outrank enlisted no matter what. A salute is not a mere tradition. When a Sgt. Major salutes a 2LT that Sgt. Major is saluting a SUPERIOR. No ifs ands or butts about it.

Here's another point: any E-8 would be taking a reduction in pay AND authority to become an O-1, so unless they want to do another 10 years to make Major, why bother?

Well if you look at what I said E-9s typically don't take officer programs. E-8s have similar considerations and money/pay rates aren't usually the problem. Time spent at 0-1E is going to be temporary. As will 0-2E. An 0-1E with 20 years will make $4584.14. An E-8 with 20 years will make $4945.17. This is only base pay though. AIPs as well as other factors could take the 0-1E above what he could have made at E-8, especially depending on the specialty. In reality an E-8 going into an Officer Program would hit 0-2E automatically upon commission. Even if he didn't all O-1Es have an accelerated 'push-button to 1LT. Just like O-2E more often than not will be on accelerated track for CAPT. The incentives available for officers depending on the officer branch / specialty can be very lucrative. Would one of my Cav Scout SNCO's take an officer program to become an infantry officer? Its not common. They would have to do more than 10 years to make Major. O-XEs are normally specialists, who garner big incentives.

Ok so the jig is up stop acting like you know what you're talking about.

[–] wombat-794-744826 10 years ago

I was in a lot of units, and I don't know your rank nor do I care. I disagreed respectfully and you responded with insults. Either cool your jets and act like a gentleman, or facilitate direct communication so we can discuss it like a couple of men. I respect your right to disagree and make your case, and allow for the probability you have experience to support your opinion, but I do not tolerate insults.

Here's something I heard semi-frequently:
First Sergeant: "Sir, could you take your platoon and (insert task here)?
Lieutenant: "No problem, Top."

I say "semi-frequently" because the lieutenant would typically be in a vehicle or an office and rarely be involved at the operational level.

Something I NEVER heard:

Lieutenant: "Top, would you take the rest of the company and....(yeah, right).

That's my point. A first sergeant answered to the Captain, maybe a 1lt in an XO slot, the battalion and division CSMs, etc., but not to a platoon leader.

Many E-9s held command positions, excepting some Sergeants-Major in staff positions, and if you don't know that then you're not for real.

Granted, my military experience is out of date and things change, but I still disagree with what seems to be your core position (though not as respectfully as I once did).

[–] IronHorseColonel 10 years ago

Poser. Pay attention to detail. Iron Horse......Major. Keep posing and you can stick by 120mm cannon straight up your poser arse! I reserve my disdain for a select few, posers are amongst those few.

The core position of my argument is that officers of all pay grade outrank all enlisted of any pay grade. I do not care what you heard. This was true 50 years ago and it is true today.

Many E-9s held command positions, excepting some Sergeants-Major in staff positions, and if you don't know that then you're not for real.

Poser nonsense. No E-9 in any branch of the Armed Forces nor any enlisted member E-1 to E-9 hold any command. Duty independent of officer activity such as a Recruiting Station will have an NCOIC, Non-Commissioned Officer In Charge. As do some other independent duties. But no enlisted person will hold a command. Can they have authority? Sure they can. But they will hold no command. Sgt. Major, especially CSMs are the Senior Enlisted Members of their units, usually Battalion level and up, with many exceptions. SEAs have no command position within a command. They are very important and integral parts of a command and they are considered part of the leadership, but they have absolutely zero chance of being in command at any level.

Below is a link to an Official US Army Website where you will find AR600, the Army Command Policy Regulations. In 'Table 1-1' you will find an 'Order of Precedence'.

http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_20.pdf

You can refer to me as Major or Sir. If you were real you would. But you are poser so you fvck off!

[–] wombat-794-744826 10 years ago

Poser? Hey read back a few, and see how respectful I was before you revealed yourself to be a officious, arrogant jerk. If we were face to face I would prove that to you.

I simply never knew an E-8 or above who wouldn't consider Lieutenant a demotion.

I was generalizing about Majors: every major for whom I worked had been a captain for five or six years; I admit I don't know how long it took them to make captain. Maybe it's tougher now to make O4, or perhaps it just took you longer. In any case I hadn't read your moniker and even if I had, I would not have assumed it was your true title. I have to wonder about someone who would use their rank to try to impress people, but I can see it now...

All of my current friends and co-workers are former military; some enlisted, some commissioned. I am in touch with a select few army buddies: some are still enlisted, a couple obtained commissions, and more than a couple took warranty commissions (either HX or CID); none of them agree with you and some of them are the best men I ever knew.

One last word about respect: in my current position (which is one I doubt you'd ever attain) there are but two people in my agency who outrank me and I've never referred to them by name. You have absolutely no clue.

[–] wombat-794-744826 10 years ago

I should admit I don't know know exactly how things worked in all the S-2 and G-3 shops, etc; I never worked inside them and only had a general sense of their structures based on my communication with them.

I also admit to not being an expert on the duties of commissioned officers. How could I? We rarely saw them in the field...

I travel a lot for work and even spend some time training military personnel, so perhaps we can finish this debate in person sometime.

[–] IronHorseColonel 10 years ago

Ok you want respectful...ok. What does S-2 and G-3 got to do with it? Don't answer that.

I'm gonna say this clearly, it does not matter what unit, branch, in the field, in the rear....an officer always outranks an enlisted person. I gave you a link to the official Army regs that clearly outline this fact. The order of precedence of rank is fairly easy to understand top to bottom. Its the same everywhere from the Army to the Navy. From 19A Armor Officers to 35A MI. Doesn't matter if you are in a Cavalry Troop in the field or on a Battalion Staff.

You said you served in lots of units, well which ones? What was your MOS?

[–] wombat-794-744826 10 years ago

Don't tell me what not to answer. I was clearly intimating that I don't know much about the rank structure within non-command, staff-level administrative shops.

You haven't disproved my primary argument, or you lost track of it, or I wasn't clear enough. I understand the succession of ranks. You pretend not to understand that an E-9 is a troop-command position at the battalion-level and above, which is the enlisted equivalent of a major.

So yeah, a lieutenant could take over a battalion if a lieutenant colonel, probably a major, and at least four captains were all casualties of some form. I guess that is technically possible, at which time said lieutenant would likely have a sergeant major answering to him directly.

Maybe this will remind you of the pragmatic point I was trying to make: what do you think (or know) to be the percentage of First- and Master-Sergeants who make the Sergeant Major list, vs. that of 2nd lieutenants making 1st lieutenant? I don't know them for sure but I know the former to have been well under 50% in my time, while the latter seemed to be relatively high with the exception of the handful I busted.

So there's my MOS. I've served in divisions, STRAF platoons, and specialized units, and yeah I recall some subtle differences by unit and discerned organizational changes of the past dozen or so years, but I will argue my primary point to the end and you have not countered it.

[–] IronHorseColonel 10 years ago

Are your eyes naturally brown? Cause you're full of shvt.

A Battalion CSM is not a command position and is in no way equivalent to a Major.

So what was your MOS and what units? Give me the CMOS nomenclature, i.e. 11B or 65W. Give me the unit, not 'divisions'. What Battalion / Brigade / Division, specifically like 1-7 CAV / 1st BCT / 1st CD. Your failure to answer these 2 rudimentary questions speaks volumes. Any proud vet would have already sounded off with both pieces of info without even having to be asked.

You are as dumb as they come. Im not ignoring or not countering your points. Your points are BS and wrong. You clearly have never served one day in your life. Ive posted the Army Command Policy which you have obviously failed to even read by this point. If you had read it or skimmed what I pointed out, than you would be biting your tongue. Ive posted the clear facts.

You don't have even the faintest clue as to what you are talking about. The more you try the dumber you look. But go ahead keep going, its a free county.

[–] wombat-794-744826 10 years ago

Thank goodness for iphones huh? WTF are you to challenge me on my service, Dick? Shat your own first if you'd like. I don't pretend to be anything I'm not, and I don't need to read your links to understand the difference between a commission and an NCO. That does not change my perspective within the narrow context of that scenario: the concept of the senior NCO obtaining a commission to the lowest grade. You missed the point or are just too stubborn. I respectfully disagreed with you while allowing for your experience and right to disagree. That's how a man talks. As for arrogant bullies, this is how they react when someone doesn't back down. I've been dealing with them all of my career, and before. They are nothing but inconvenience followed by paperwork. Why don't we endeavor to address your insults in person sometime?

[–] IronHorseColonel 10 years ago

So what was your MOS?

[–] dubyahsrobotminion 10 years ago

You're wrong! I'm a Chief in the US Navy. More than likely I will be a Senior Chief this coming cycle. So I am a SNCO. My division officer, the guy who has direct authority over me is an Ensign. He is an LDO too, meaning he is prior enlisted. My Master Chief, who is the Command Master Chief and ultimately the Senior Enlisted guy on the whole ship of 4000 or more depending, still calls this Ensign Sir. Not because its tradition, not just out of respect but because that Ensign outranks him. Anyone who has actually served knows you're wrong. So maybe you are fan or a dependent but, you have it wrong. You have it so wrong.

Do I have authority? Goddamn right I do! Do I respectfully boss Junior Officers around sometimes? Goddamn right I do! When the shvt hits the fan do I end up sometimes telling them what to do? Goddamn right I do! But officially they outrank me, they have authority over me and I do in fact answer to any Officer of any Rank appointed over me, as I duly swore an oath to do such.

(a) Enlistment Oath.— Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:
"I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

If you were actually a Veteran it wouldnt matter who he is, or who I am for that matter, if you were a Vet you wouldnt be arguing about this with anyone. Have a little sense and grow up!

You're taking a dump and they call GQ do you pinch it off or finish your business?

[–] IronHorseColonel 10 years ago

Are you stalking me Chief Dubyah?  I'll bet you wish his version of the military wasnt fantasy don't cha? Then you could rip on all those Ensigns that don't outrank you!

[–] wombat-794-744826 10 years ago

You're right that the argument is stupid and that I don't know much about the navy but if you ever again accuse me of being a fan or Dependant be prepared to back that up. I will argue my core point until the end and if you missed the point, I'm sorry. If you disagree, good for you, but keep the insults to yourself unless you are prepared to back them up. Thanks for your service but choose your words carefully.

[–] IronHorseColonel 10 years ago

Oh please. He is spot on. You're a fanboy, poser, an internet abuser. He did back them up. Anyone who has served would know these things. You are an idiot and a fake. So I chose my words carefully what are you going to do about it? You gonna get your buddies together from that 'STRAF Platoon' and come get me with that 'division'? Why don't you man up and just admit you're full of shvt?

[–] wombat-794-744826 10 years ago

I never knew a major to speak like such a punk. If you're for real, I am disappointed but really don't care if you're for real or not.

[–] IronHorseColonel 10 years ago

Im a punk for calling you out? Like I said I reserve disdain for posers. If you're not a poser than what is your MOS? You've never known a Major. Or a Sgt. Major for that matter. You should be disappointed in yourself for lying about serving. If you're not lying just answer those simple questions. Keep deflecting than you're just proving yourself to be a liar and proving it is you who is the punk.

[–] IronHorseColonel 10 years ago

If you are ever at Ft. Hood, there aren't that many Majors in Iron Horse and only 2 its lone Cav Squadron. Come find me. Poser.

[–] wombat-794-744826 10 years ago

Know it well, Dick. Was in 2AD before they decommissioned and were replaced by 5th Infantry from Polk. I dropped two references to having been a 95B. Before that I was in the 197th Mech at Kelly Hill, with some smaller units in between and afterward.

[–] IronHorseColonel 10 years ago

Google is good to Posers. You expect me to believe you were an MP? You don't know that a 2LT outranks any Enlisted and you were an MP? What can I say maybe you got kicked out. Either that or the years have not been good to your memory or common sense.

Your reference to being an 95B was what STRAF Platoon?

If you know it well than come get me tough guy!

[–] wombat-794-744826 10 years ago

We may be in danger of getting kicked off here.I'll try to make my point more slowly for you:

Within the organizational, pragmatic, and operational scope of the larger unit(s), a Sgt Major or CSM would be in a troop position at the battalion-level or higher (which you know).

A lieutenant would not be in that person's chain of command, and would at most be leading a platoon (or be a company XO at most) a couple troop-levels below that of an E-9.

Based on the assignment, prestige, authority and responsibility of the position, I would not see moving to O-1 a promotion.

There's an x-factor in unconventional units, or their used to be, but I stand by my opinion.

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] wombat-794-744826 10 years ago

I actually was not writing to you there but if the shoe fits up your arse, feel free to stick it there instead of your mouth. I thought there may be a max number of replies but didn't know for sure. My opinion has not changed, does not have to matter to you, and would not expect you to get it now. I don't pose as anything other than what I am, which does include a resume' of accomplishments you two couldn't approach if you worked on it together.

[–] dubyahsrobotminion 10 years ago

You have said that Junior Officers are actually junior to Senior Non-Coms. You said it. You eat it. You're wrong. So I am backing my words up. The real deal would not, I repeat NOT get something like that wrong. You keep talking about this core point but, every single thing you have claimed is misconceived or utterly wrong. If you were a soldier, than you were a stupid one. I know Seaman Recruits that have a better understanding of Rank than you do.

Have you ever heard of the pot calling the kettle black? Quit being a hypocrite in asking the Major to meet him to say stuff face to face and than call him a punk for offering it up. He is right you typify the internet braggart. Telling people to choose their words more carefully. Or what you gonna beat me up?

You're taking a dump and they call GQ do you pinch it off or finish your business?

[–] wombat-794-744826 10 years ago

No physical threat. I am not a child. You started throwing insults around without proper foundation. The basis of my opinion was pragmatic, not literal.

[–] sms-14 10 years ago

Don't call me "SIR", I work for a living!

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] IronHorseColonel 10 years ago

Blaine was a Sgt. Major. Blaine being a 18 CMOS soldier in SF most likely wouldnt partake in a commissioning program that would make him a 2LT. If he did it would likely take him out of SF CMOS. There are no billets in SF 18As' for 2LTs or 1LTs. Only Captains can be billeted as a 18A. Blaine could take part in the SF Warrant Officer program, but being a Sgt. Major it is unlikely. 18Zs or Zulus usually stay in SNCO Senior Enlisted Advisor positions, progressing from the ODA to Company to Battalion to Group and so on. SFCs and MSgts most often are the targets of the SF Warrant Officer program.

Believe it or not a Sgt. Major can be promoted in pay grade....technically. Command Sgt. Major is still technically a promotion. Going from a Company 'Top' like Blaine most likely is to a Battalion CSM is a big deal in SF. Being a CSM in a Group is a huge deal notwithstadning because there are only 5 of them in the entire Army.

Aside from SF there are plenty O-1E's in the Big Army. Many prior enlisted Officer's come straight into 0-2E and sometimes even 0-3E depending upon their branch.

Having said all of that, there is absolutely no shame in being enlisted. This is especially true in the SF community. SF Officers get little field billeting. 18A SF Captains typically get one operational tour before they are off to the next rung. NCO's can stay in front line SF units and be operational for their entire career with short forays in between here and there.

[–] mighty_frogman 9 years ago

While becoming an officer would technically be a promotion, it would have nullified most of what hhe did in his 20+ year career as an NCO. E-9's are highly, and universally, respected across the military. O-1 and O-2's are not as they are often young kids with no life or military experience. It terms of credibility, it would be an incredible demotion. As well as a near $2000/month pay cut.

[–] tbirdman-1 9 years ago

Yes I so agree about how E-9 pay grade is highly respected. As a navy
veteran I served under chief petty officers and both senior and
master chiefs in the US Navy are held in high regard. Along with
pay grade E-7 of chief petty officer or CPO. Do you recall the 70's
TV sitcom, "CPO Sharkey?" It starred Don Rickles as a career navy
CPO and it was so hilarious! Though you may not be old enough to
have watched the show. Oh and I also agree with your comment about
O-1 and O-2's having no life or military experience. Though in the
US Navy there is the title of LDO or limited duty officer. Which
is reserved for former enlisted sailors who have earned a commission
and start out as an ensign. In the Marine Corps they are called
"mustangs."

Lorenzo Sunny Arizona

Call me a sailor or a swabby just don't call me a squid!

[–] joestl 9 years ago

If he got promoted to 2nd Lieutenant or higher that would take him out of the The Unit. Operators in the unit are all NCO's, not officers.

The way soldiers are assigned is diferent for the The Unit then that of regular soldiers. A regular soldier would be a part of a Company which is commanded by a Captain and each Company there are a few different platoons which each of those are commanded by a Lieutenant and inside each platoon there is Squads with an NCO in command of those. The Unit is different in that it's commanded by a Colonel and it's esssentially just 1 Squad underneath that and all members of that group are NCOs.

[–] IronHorseColonel 9 years ago

First, you can't just promote a Sgt. Major to 2LT. There still are things called Battlefield Promotions but they are far different than those that occurred during times of National Emergency like WW2. Bps need to be given to individuals who are already fully qualified for the position they will be assuming. Bps are done to fill positions/billets not to reward a soldier. Example - a Platoon Sgt. who is a SFC goes down in combat. You have a promotable SSG who is already qualified for the position in a squad in the same xompany not necessarily the same platoon, you can Bp him into the role. NCO's can only become officers by way of the Army's Enlisted Commissioning Program which is a process that must be initiated by the soldier.

Second, 'The Unit' to which you refer, in real life does contain officers that are indeed at the operator level. Delta is organized operationally into Squadrons. This is not an aviation moniker, its a cavalry one. Oddly enough the Cav and the Navy have been using these terms since before there was such a thing as an airplane, go figure. The Squadrons are further broken down into Troops. Unlike the Navy counterparts the Army doesn't take it further down from Troop to Platoon, rather the Army will call the contents of a Delta Troop as Team, Section or Element. Officers operate 'Operationally' at all levels in Delta from element to troop to squadron. Army Captain's begin their Delta experience in Troops as Operators. The overall Troop is overseen by a Major/LTC who is usually on a second tour, having had a first tour as a qualified Operator. Within a Troop different elements may have an Officer in Command as an OIC, others may have a NCO in Command as an NCOIC. So the point being Officers are well represented in Delta. Their roles as Operators will be different without a doubt. Officers will not specialize in sniping for instance, rather they may qualify in sniper exploitation/coordination. Officers won't special in demolition but they may qualify in engineering dynamics. Officers won't be combat medics but they could specialize in humanitarian operations. Tactical command of Delta can be held by Officer and NCO alike but, administratively the command will always be held by an officer.