Spoilers 22 and 23


Well this horrific season from hell is almost over. I still want to believe they can somehow atone for the terrible Dean character assassination but then I saw all the promotions for next week.

I have looked at the promo, the photos and SPPT's promo frame by frame. Everything looks like paint by the numbers. Berens (the writer of such greats as Red Meat and The Raid) handles the first hour. So basically "the boys as generals" means Sam goes off to lead an army of Hunters and destroy the BoL while Dean sits around the bunker to de-brainwash Mary. Oh Dean will get an epic fight scene with Ketch but he will lose and just before Ketch kills Dean Mary will wake up and kill Ketch. So....gonna hate that one.

Round two, nephelim,Kelly, lucifer...yawn..yawn...yawn. Mary delivers the baby. Everyone goes to a new world with Mad Max rejects (maybe the future). Dean will shoot someone with a machine gun so we will get our 10 seconds of Dean goodness like last night. Now the one that's going to hurt...the grenade launcher. It gets used by someone that Cas reacts to by saying "You!". If this is some kind of future dean or alt dean or Chuck forbid someone else....I will be beyond pissed.

I would watch a dozen Season 7's over this crap. Screw you Dabb and Singer.

reply

The whole season was boring and annoying, so I do not expect anything from the final. Actually, this season was an insult not only to fans of the show, but any viewer with a shred of intelligence.

reply

Well this horrific season from hell is almost over.


Yes. Yes, it is.

reply


I have looked at the promo, the photos and SPPT's promo frame by frame.


Thanks for the breakdown. I looked at the promo pictures really quickly. If what you're seeing is right... well, that's unfortunate. I didn't expect the finale to do right by Dean anyway.

reply

Thanks. The spoiler thread at previously tv goes into even more detail. They have screenshots and a scene by scene breakdown of each image. There is a small (don't want to get my hopes up) chance that Dean takes out Ketch but I will believe it when I see it. Also, Jensen said he finally got to use the grenade launcher at ahbl8 which again makes me fear it is some kind of alt dean. They cop out on the real dean using it and Dabbs destruction of the character will almost be complete.

reply

I don't think Jensen would do that to us. Getting our hopes up like that if it's not really Dean who ends up using the grenade launcher :)

http://itsokaysammy.tumblr.com/post/160575733007/x

reply

Why an alt Dean?

reply

There's a lot of speculation that pillar world is a possible future, alternate dimension or parallel universe. Cas's "you" line was to a guy holding the grenade launcher. I'm afraid Jensen was just happy to play with it with whatever version of Dean this could possibly be. I'm a little episode wary these days especially after the colt.

reply

Anything's possible on this show, and I really hope the writers finally get that in season 13, because they seem to limit themselves more with each passing year, but when Cas said, 'You,' I didn't think he or the background looked washed out the way the 'other' landscape does, and I'd say that's the alternate dimension. It is possible that wherever Cas took Kelly is a different time to keep her safe though. I think it also depends on whether or not the person is there to save Cas or is part of the attack. If the person is attacking, then I'm thinking it's Lucifer, because as far as I know, Cas and the Winchesters don't know that Lucifer is still out of the cage. If the person is helping, maybe it's Gabriel or Michael although the three of them don't really need guns. It's hard to know. I think it depends on how creative they're planning on getting next year. Maybe the nephilim's power isn't about destroying universes as much as creating them by altering things in the timeline.

reply

I like the sound of all of this.

reply

Or maybe that is our Dean, but a future Cas? It could go the other way too.

reply

Everyone is projecting their hopes for next week so there are a lot of theories. Some think Bobby will be back, some are saying John. There is even a theory that Gabriel is back. I just want it to be better then I dread it will be.

At this point, I would be happy with Dean using the launcher in any way at all. Blowing up the door to the bunker, blowing up the BoL base, blowing up the Mad Max guys or even just property damage. As long Dean is the one using it. We see the "you" person holding it and it was smoking. That means it will probably be used in 23. Story wise it would make sense using it in the last episode after joking about it all year. So if they use it, it should be epic like Daryl Dixon and the rocket launcher. Everything should be about to hit the fan then out of nowhere an explosion and a cut to Dean holding the smoking launcher. That would be epic....but nothing I have seen this season gives me hope that will happen.

reply

I just want it to be better then I dread it will be.


I think this has been my motto for the entire season. So far . . .

Given the season we've had, as long as Dean doesn't miss, I'll be happy.

reply

I'm hoping the stupid bunker blows up. Either that or they open a Starbucks in the front foyer. All the folks coming and going might as well be comfy.

This show has never really gotten into an alternate dimension type storyline. I think it could be quite compelling and fresh - and all they need to do is film in a BC forest with mountains as a backdrop and then ash out the film. It was effective in purgatory (I'm still steaming over that wasted potential) - and it's cheap to film. No expensive FX or working with green screen.

Only issue with an AU arc would be the MOTWs. How would you slot them in?

Who's the Arab wandering through the fog?

reply

I'm hoping the stupid bunker blows up. Either that or they open a Starbucks in the front foyer. All the folks coming and going might as well be comfy.

Lol, I swear the bunker's turned into a Dollar Tree. I'm sick of it.

reply

I'm hoping the stupid bunker blows up. Either that or they open a Starbucks in the front foyer. All the folks coming and going might as well be comfy.


Love this! LOL! I agree, put in a Starbucks - that makes everything better! Heh.

I have no attachment to the bunker anymore - I have no attachment to much of anything on this show now. So, yeah, blow it up, who cares. It has never truly fulfilled the purpose it was supposed to anyway, especially in the warding department or even being this big huge secret. It was mysterious and cool honestly only in the episode where Henry gives them the key and with the very first reveal shot. Immediately after that it lost its mysterious appeal.

reply

So this could be a SPOILER picture but it does look like it might be the "stranger"...

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/736137c3c28463389898a264e13a4f2273a5258f56fb15e1811fb61ad5c64630.png?w=800&h=1255

reply

I agree there is a good chance Bobby could be back in some form. That seems possible. However, say they do bring Bobby back, what then? I am actually more scared about what they do to him if he comes back. I would hate to see Bobby get destroyed by the same writers who dragged down Mary. Bobby was the best parental figure Dean had. Do we really need a Perez or Berens episode where Bobby all of a sudden decides Sam is his favorite? Or an episode where Bobby tells Dean to suck up whatever stupid decision Sam or Mary try to drag him into. Maybe they will want to get real "creative" and have Bobby and Mary hook up to officially make Bobby dad. I can imagine all sorts of horrible scenarios. Bobby is safer on Heaven lockdown.

reply

I would hope that the reaction at cons, negative reviews and just general fan unhappiness would clue them in. Do NOT destroy Bobby like they did Mary. But yes I would rather that Bobby would just stay retired in heaven (not in jail) than have his character trashed like Sera did.

reply

My guess is that if it is Bobby, he's in that alternate dimension, which I'm thinking more and more is the Big Empty. So, I'm thinking that they're all dead or were all transported there by the nephilim at the end of the episode, and Bobby will show them what they need to know to survive there. They will find a way out after a couple of episodes, and he'll stay there or Mary will offer to trade her place so he can go with them, but I doubt he'll come back for forever.

Having said that, I've wanted this show to really go Apocalyptic for a while now, and what we've seen of the alternate dimension looks like that, so as long as they're there for at least few episodes, and this is a way to bring Bobby back, I might trust them creatively to make this show gritty again instead of having it be the glossy, soapy, BMoL-infused, mess we've gotten this year and quite frankly the glossy, soapy show we've gotten the last few years too. Maybe they won't make it back, and they have to do their world saving on that side of the divide for a while, and that's why they made such a scene of them carving their initials into the bunker table and talked about their legacy, because they're actually going to die and not come back to that world, but will find a way to continue on the fight on the other side.

Where I'm much less trustful is that they will keep Dean and Sam at the center of the show, and any trust is predicated on what they actually do, because my imagination tends to take things and run with them, and then when I watch the show, it's like they've fumbled the ball, because they don't have enough courage to follow through on anything.

reply

If it is the empty maybe Sam will get a chance to kill Azazel, Zachariah, Eve, Dick Roman, Abaddon and Death to make up for all those kills Dean shouldn't have gotten.

reply

Nah, that's why they've been fitting them all in this year and bringing things back from the early seasons as an homage to a show they're about to kill and reboot.

I jest . . . mostly. ;)

reply

Ok and while we are at it maybe Dean can make a suck dive and save the whole dang world so we can praise him the next seven seasons. Kidding...sort of

reply

I'm bracing myself for a "family's supposed to make you miserable" speech which turned out to be super hypocritical based on how much Bobby whined about Soulless Sam almost snatching his wig.

reply

So I just read a potential spoiler or it might have been fan speculation but the theory is that the crib in one of the spoiler pictures is Dean's crib and that Mary's deal didn't just change Sam it changed Dean as well. I don't know how to feel about that. My love for Dean was based in part that he was a human that could defeat any and all supernatural creatures. He was the last man standing in SS (I know that a lot of Dean fans wanted him to be Michael and have the huge battle between the brothers) but as written he was stronger than all of them just as a man.
That seems like rewriting the original story of Sam and Dean. But I suppose Dabb reimagined Mary so I guess all bets are off at this point.

reply

I don't understand why her deal would've included Dean. I know there's supposed to be a young Dean cast in this episode. I'm guessing the crib is supposed to be Sam's, because 'the real' Mary retreated to the nursery in her memories, and a kid Dean would fit better in that scenario to keep from spooking her. I wouldn't panic just yet. :)

reply

I have little faith....:( and I panic easily. :)

reply

Talk about rewriting history...

I will admit I sometimes wondered if Dean didn't have dormant supernatural powers. He's just so exceptional it's almost unreal lol. I don't know, I'm just waiting for the finale to see where I stand with the show. I don't have any expectations whatsoever at this point.

reply

Is it sad that all we want out of the finale is that it doesn't suck too much? Hopefully at the very least better than the debacle that was Alpha and Omega?

reply

It is sad but I think we're just being realistic, Cassio 🤧 😷 🤒
I don't think it's prudent to expect great things from the finale when the entire season has been rather terrible.
Jensen likes episode 22 so I think this one has a chance of being watchable. I make no prediction for 23. Dabb is writing it, isn't he?

reply

Unfortunately Dabb is writing the finale. He hasn't really written a good episode since???

reply

Yep, exactly why I don't expect anything good from 12.23. It's actually kind of freeing lol.

reply

It is liberating but I do miss the anxiety of what the season finale had in store for us and the jeopardy our heros were going to be left in. And the long long summer of speculation. Oh well maybe next season will be better.

reply

I totally get it. I see all this talk about characters coming back, other dimensions, doppelgangers from the future and it all sounds fantastic but I can't forget who the showrunner is long enough to get swept up in the excitement because I don't see how he's going to miraculously write a decent episode now, after he's botched the entire season. I suppose I'm discouraged and defeated.

Oh well maybe next season will be better.



👀


Sure, why not.


😇


We never know, stranger things have happened.


😉

I think we have a shot at a better season if TPTB forces Dabb to take the criticism seriously because he himself doesn't give a flying fig what we say. Without someone who has the power to threaten his job intervening on the viewers' behalf, I expect season 13 to be like season 12 so let's keep complaining all over the place to make sure they can't ignore us.

reply

And the long long summer of speculation.


Maybe the finale will give people something to talk about?

reply

The Prisoner? I still think Carver had more to do with making that one what it was, but Dabb has the writing credit on it.

reply

I did like that episode. Since it was ep 22 he had to make sure it complimented the finale. So he I'm sure he had strict guidelines.

reply

The only hope I have for 22 is that Jensen gave his seal of approval. The promos look like he was left out of the action again so there has to more to it then we have seen. As for 23.....I have no hope at all.

reply

My love for Dean was based in part that he was a human that could defeat any and all supernatural creatures. He was the last man standing in SS (I know that a lot of Dean fans wanted him to be Michael and have the huge battle between the brothers) but as written he was stronger than all of them just as a man.


That may have been true before Dabb took over in season 11. Since then Dean can't walk and chew gum at the same time, he's so unremarkable as to be incompetent if not outright useless. Dabb's Dean isn't strong at all.

I have no expectations that anything will get better next week. Jensen claimed to like the penultimate episode, and seeing as that is literally only the second episode all year that he's talked about liking - the other being, obviously, Regarding Dean - I assume Dean may not be entirely worthless in that one. Fingers crossed. If Dean gets to use the grenade launcher, it will be in that episode. As for ep 23, Jensen has been pretty much mute on that subject, so I have to assume Dean goes back to being useless in the finale.

All that being said, I actually broke down and watched parts of this last episode, and say what you will, Buckner/Lemming allowed Dean to be more badass than he's been in almost two years with the scene in the bunker at the end, actually taking out several BMoL and Ketch before skanky Mary shows up to spoil everyone's fun as she is want to do (brainwashing or no brainwashing). Sure, it's just one scene, but it's more than we've gotten in ages.

And everything else that happened in that episode is at the direction of Dabb. You can't blame them for Eileen's death - writers can't just willy nilly kill off anyone like that without permission or having been directed by the showrunner to do so. So the problem is still Andrew Dabb.

reply

Dean was finally allowed to take an active role in this episode. I did love the shoot out in the Bunker.

And yes I put the blame totally on Dabb. It's his show, he owns it and he broke it.

reply

The shootout was the best part of the episode.

reply

"All that being said, I actually broke down and watched parts of this last episode, and say what you will, Buckner/Lemming allowed Dean to be more badass than he's been in almost two years with the scene in the bunker at the end, actually taking out several BMoL and Ketch before skanky Mary shows up to spoil everyone's fun as she is want to do (brainwashing or no brainwashing). Sure, it's just one scene, but it's more than we've gotten in ages."

Not to take away from that scene (which I loved) but I just don't believe the Duo wrote "Dean shoots a guy from behind his back" or "Dean slides across the floor and disarms Ketch". I am biased but I credit Jensen and the stunt coordinator. Not to take away from Yockey either but I credit the same thing with the knife fight in Asa Fox. Dabb and crew can only control the scripts, they can't stop Jensen from acting cool in the few action scenes they give him. Hence, banishing him to the woods. No action...no cool acting.

reply

Dabb and crew can only control the scripts, they can't stop Jensen from acting cool in the few action scenes they give him.


I completely agree that the uber-coolness factor is all credit to Jensen and the director, no question about it. But the writers had to include the scene in the script, write some mundane stage direction along the lines of "Dean shoots several BMoL and comes up behind Ketch to take away his gun." But the fact is they at least wrote Dean as being competent enough to use his freaking gun for a change, and that's a humongous difference in how everyone else has written him most of the season. Dean had more kills in that one little scene than he's had all season. How it was staged is certainly down to Jensen and the director.

I'm not saying the episode was good or anything - but, let's be honest, almost none of them are good, because the arcs are terrible. But, quite honestly, from what I did see, I didn't think it was the worst episode of the season - not by a longshot. Granted, that's not really a compliment, and it's not intended to be. But my bottom line is that I did enjoy watching Dean for those few seconds in the bunker.

reply

Eactly this. Anything badass wasn't scripted. There was one there little thing Jensen ad-libbed but for the life of me I can't remember what it was now. That's sad.

reply

As much as Bobby would make sense in terms of the boys, I kind of hope it is JDM's version of John risen from the grave simply to sort out the mess of this season even though I know that won't be the case.

Now I will return to service of being majorly depressed in the corner, because Ketch is now a bit more sympathetic as he's probably been brainwashed in the same manner as Mary. But from the pics Dean is letting Toni poke him with needles and nothing I have seen has shown me Toni is redeemable in any sense of the word. Her son would be better off with her having her head blown off.

reply

I am a huge John fan, but I don't think THIS is the right time to bring him back. Mary is wrecked and has been trodden over and don't want them to destroy John any more than they already have done. I want him brought back in a good storyline, not a bad one. I think Ketch's days are numbered and I think he will be dead next episode if Kess has her way. I think there will be death's but who's to know who is under their hammer. I want old guys to come back but not under these terms just to be killed off a second or third/fourth time. Bobby has had his day, even though he's a fan favourite I feel he's better left up in heaven. They've played him to death now, and I've seen enough of him.

reply

Oh seriously I want it to be John not to add to the storyline. It is just that this season has depressed me so much even after they have thrown Mary so far under the bus and made the brothers so moronic by working with the BMoL and keep going back to a compromised bunker that I would love it to be John just so we have him walk in and turn to his family and just say

'I've been finding out about all the bullshit you've done, both behind my back and since you came back, Mary and since I've been gone, sons. So blame me for all your choices, all you want. I'm done with all of you!'

reply

I'd like that to happen in that way too. I want to see John so badly, even if only to come back and tick Mary off. But these writers will just botch it just like they have previously with John and now Mary, John Mark 2 coming back for me would be a waste because they wouldn't do him justice. But I love your idea. It would suit John down to a tee if it happened this way.

reply

[deleted]

If John's character turns up he just needs to shut down the show.

A female deaf hunter being killed by becoming nothing more than a rag doll in the mouth of a dog's who is commanded by a whistle that some beings can hear and some can't????. And why just for Sam to have man pain! With the six other hunter deaths, her death didn't even move plot because those bugs could have been discovered through dusting and even then the brothers went back to the bunker .

So seriously can anything about Eileen's death be justified?? Can it be found not to be wrong to be done in the manner it was executed?

Now I can usually defend the use and deaths of female characters but Eileen's was just sick and unnecessary in so many ways.

So I'll go back to being pissed in the corner and seriously doubting I'll watch the finale.

reply

So I'll go back to being pissed in the corner and seriously doubting I'll watch the finale.


A little like this?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d1/7d/19/d17d19a68d200327625dd1f046b29ec5.jpg

Or I saw this in a tweet to Dabb in response to this last episode, and it made me laugh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bulsXLM_2KE

reply

more power puff. Because I'm sugar and spice and all things nice!

reply

:)

reply

I understand how you feel, fishpan.
There are no words for the disappointment that is season 12.
At least, it's almost over :)

reply