Not really sure how to get past that last episode, but maybe some other talking points might help. I was thinking about what Toni said to Mary about John's parenting, and Mary's reaction to it. It lead me to this question.
How has Season 12, specifically the reintroduction of Mary, altered your opinion of John, or has it?
My opinion of John changed in the episode "Dark Side of the Moon" where they were sent to find Joshua. One scene had Dean sitting at the kitchen table eating his PB&J with the crusts cut off and Mary answers the phone. Dean said to Sam this was one of the times their parents were having problems and John wasn't living there. Sam said something about he thought their parents had a wonderful marriage and Dean said it was wonderful after Mary died. Simply John was human and wasn't the perfect Dad. After that episode I didn't think of John the same way as I did from the earlier episodes.
shareIt's interesting you mention DSotM. I think for me, they were going for John not having been the perfect husband/father before Mary was killed even though things were supposedly idyllic before that happened, but I think that scene, specifically, is one that Season 12 Mary has changed for me. John no longer comes off as a guy who has a temper and walks out on his wife and kids for days at a time over nothing. Now, I wonder if Mary disappeared for a few days to go do a hunt and that's what prompted the fight, or if maybe Mary was in hunter mode for some reason. When she's in hunter mode, she goes cold and distant the way we've seen her be most of this season. A drastic personality shift like that could lead to an argument. Maybe she was researching a case and was acting secretive about it, and that caused the argument.
shareThey really haven't come out and said she stayed a hunter while she was married. Just a couple of hints that it happened later in their married life. When the guys went back in time there was a scene whered they were in the car and John said that a parent should never raise their children to hunt. So I wonder if Mary did against John's wishes and it caused a rife in their relationship.
When Sam gave Mary John's diary I wondered why she didn't say something then about his hunting. It's almost as if she expected it.
So I wonder if Mary did against John's wishes and it caused a rife in their relationship.
They really haven't come out and said she stayed a hunter while she was married.
Actually, the opening scene of Asa Fox shows Mary hunting after she was married if I remember right.
shareI'll just copy paste what I said in the "Stuck In the Middle" Winchester Brothers Report
https://samanddeanbrothersinarms.wordpress.com/2017/02/17/xii-winchester-brothers-report-they-got-gear-but-they-tried-to-kill-my-brother/
“Safer that way.”
I said in the Mamma Mia Report that Mary had in lot of common with John when it comes to the way they both drop the ball as caretakers for their children when the going gets tough. She’s also exactly like him when it comes to delivering information to her sons on what she believes is a “need to know basis” (Sam threw that one in John’s face a decade ago) because it’s “safer”. And just like John, she was wrong.
“Give me back what’s mine, or I take it off your lifeless bodies.”
There’s still an important difference between Mary and John. Mary gambled with the lives of her children to deliver the Colt to the British Men of Letters. I can’t remember John ever sinking that low. When it comes to the Colt, he gave it up, in addition to his life, for Dean. I struggle to find any redeeming characteristics in Mary Winchester. The true revelation of this episode is that she’s actually like her father. Samuel Campbell. Now there’s a nasty piece of work. Sold out his grandsons too!
I have to admit I am looking at Mary as a worse parent than John. I kinda still like John as very flawed as he was. Can't say that about Mary. Way to ruin a character Show.
shareJohn was far from perfect, but I still kinda like him too. When he was still alive, we saw his interactions with his sons. He was neglectful in their youth and their drill sergeant more than father, but I honestly believe it was because it was the only way he knew how to get them prepared to survive in the world no matter what happened to him. I think he said something like that to Sam in Dead Man's Blood. Despite the serious problems with John from a parenting perspective, we saw the bond the three of them had and its complex dynamic. Mary? Nope. Not seeing any of that.
shareDitto.
shareI'll also add that I find John's story much more sympathetic now. I always did to a certain extent, because he had no idea what was really out there in the SPN Universe and had to figure it out on his own after Mary died, but Mary was dead, so I didn't exactly hold it against her. Now though, after seeing how willfully Mary has ignored the reality of her sons (in general) and their upbringing just so she can keep an ideal image of her family in her head . . . I'm guessing that same willful ignorance is the only explanation we're going to get on why she didn't do anything to try and prepare for Azazel even though she was still occasionally hunting behind John's back all those years, and I do not find that acceptable.
share