Rate 12.21 There's Something about Mary - Supernatural (2005) Discussion

[–] Denese121 (135) 8 years ago

I'm not sure yet. I'll have to watch it again.
I was soooo angry about the beginning (no spoilers) that I haven't really processed the rest.
Actually I'm pretty angry about everything, but at least I was riveted.
I think Samantha Smith gave a stellar performance.
I couldn't give two shits about the Lucifer storyline. Poor Crowley. I want him to become part of the team again!!!!
As per usual lately, the Winchesters didn't have enough screen time.
I want to kick Toni the Twat's teeth down her throat. Now she's trapped. Fingers crossed she suffers in some way. Physically and psychologically.
Random thoughts...

6/10

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[–] debbab (4) 8 years ago

Addendum to my previous comment: Samantha Smith owned this episode. The rawness she brought to Mary is palpable.

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[–] cassiopeia (528) 8 years ago

um -10? F+++? Hated it.
Just when I didn't think they could destroy Mary any further. When she was begging Ketch to kill her I was screaming just do it already. Sam and Dean as bumbling guest stars. What a shock Toni is now going to be an ally of the Winchesters because you knew Sam was going to forgive her. Poor Mark Shepard. I am pretty sure he wishes he didn't have to come back. Maybe someone will squash the rat. Lucifer-sorry I just can't care.

When did this show turn into humans killing humans. This isn't the show I signed on for. Sam and Dean are hero's that travel the country Saving People Hunting Things...Supernatural things. This isn't an enjoyable theme Dabb has for this season. I get it. People are the biggest monsters. I knew that already from the 100's of crime shows on my tv right now that I don't care to watch.
#FireBuckLemming was trending tonight. Spoilertv gave the ep a 79% disapproval rating. This was horrible.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

People are the biggest monsters. I knew that already from the 100's of crime shows on my tv right now that I don't care to watch.

Or from the episodes we've had in this show that have tackled the same issue. The occasional episode sprinkled in here and there was quite effective at times, but a whole season of it? Meh, I consider the BMoL as an elitist group of witches who think they're better than the Grand Coven for reasons. They aren't really human anymore.

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[–] cassiopeia (528) 8 years ago

Then grenade launcher?

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[–] jpollock73 (799) 8 years ago

I'm not even going to try to rate this one. No wonder the ratings are falling. Do they think there picking up new viewers with this crap?

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

Absolutely!

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[–] PAForrest (158) 8 years ago

I went on twitter last night looking for the latest upfront news, and couldn't help but see nothing but raging disgust about the episode - from quarters I never expected! Increasingly week after week the frustration and disillusionment with the direction of the show is palpable and spreading.

The CW is going to have to step in and do something, like fire Dabb and maybe even Singer if they can. I swear the show would be better run by some random stranger off the street and his or her random friends writing the scripts.

And if the Js don't want their reputations completely trashed for sticking with this show so many years - and IMO way way too long - they'd better get proactive.

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[–] jpollock73 (799) 8 years ago

Yes Pa don't bother watching this one. Wow I hope Dabb has hit rock bottom.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

Is it wanky to ask you which quarters? I'm just curious. I know Dean fans are unhappy, so are Castiel fans, brother fans, Eileen fans... Who else is mad at the show?

The Js got proactive in previous seasons. I'm not understanding their silence, especially Jensen's cause Chuck knows he doesn't mince words when he's unhappy with the writing.

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[–] PAForrest (158) 8 years ago

There was a tweet from Alice Jester of all people blaming fans for continuing to watch the show as enablers. That one shocked me. Someone from the Astroglide company of all places, who must watch the show, talked about the season sucking. And some of the normally rah-rah bloggers like Tublar_Whitney, who is now Watcher_Whitney as of yesterday, for whatever reason, is hashtagging #BringBackKripke, and even Clarissa from tvaddict has been frustrated and fed up.

Then, of course, there have been those reviews we've already posted, and others I'm forgetting right now; but bottom line is that I think it speaks to overall disappointment to see increasing complaints from sectors outside of the normally clique fandoms, like Dean fans, Cas fans, etc.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

Wait, Alice is mad at the show? Wow, things are bad.

Astroglide!!! How random. I know they tweeted about the show before but it was to use the shipping fervor to promote/sell their products. Now even companies are criticizing the show?

I'm honestly very happy that folks are complaining from every single corner of the fandom. This season is dreadful and someone NEEDS to intervene.

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[–] PAForrest (158) 8 years ago

I'm honestly very happy that folks are complaining from every single corner of the fandom. This season is dreadful and someone NEEDS to intervene.

This is my feeling too. It's too easy for them to dismiss complaints from long-time clique fans - I get that. But it's harder to ignore general overall criticism from viewers across the spectrum, especially ones with a lot of followers.

Then there's the drop in ratings that can't be ignored either.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

Thoughts:
Random GotW can fend off The Hellhound with an axe and a water cooler (still ridiculous), and a trained hunter can't without the Colt, blowing them up, or using Ruby's knife (much the way we've seen in the past). This lowers my opinion of SBHaH even more. I knew Eileen was probably a gonner when we saw her in the promo, but killing her off before the title card? Why not use Garth? If DJ Qualls couldn't do it, they could've just started the episode with a guy's feet poking out from under a sheet in the morgue and said it was him, but if they could've gotten him for even a day, it would've been pretty cool to see a werewolf vs. a hellhound. I mean, they've mentioned Garth so much this season, it seems like practically a given he'll show up at some point. Maybe he still will, I don't know, but I doubt he'll do much more than 1 episode, so while killing off another piece of the old Supernatural would suck, it would make sense for him to die if he's never coming back again after this season (if he even shows up this season). I don't know if any of what I just wrote makes sense, but that's my first impression.

entry 1/4

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

More thoughts:

I hate that Mary had to find out about their childhood from Toni. I mean of course they'd never complain about anything like that to her or anyone else, but surely she must've noticed that John's journal had hunts all over the country in it, hunts that would've lasted for extended periods of time. John must have added his sons' names in on hunts as they got a little older. She had to have known John was a single father doing all that. I'm guessing Deanna stayed home with Mary when she was little and Samuel hunted, and there was no dragging her across the country or any younger siblings for her to watch, but she should've been able to put 2&2 together. All this soul searching and retracing steps using John's journal, and she was never interested enough to look for school records on her children to see what they took, how often they moved, or how they did? Nothing? There's running away from your problems, and then there's willfully ignoring them, and as much as it pains me to write, Toni was right. Mary has been willfully been ignoring them, so she can keep the idea of her happy family in her head. I'm guessing this is the exact same reason she didn't do anything about Azazel in 10 years. I guess this is Mary's biggest, most fatal flaw?

entry 2/4 (I think they've cut down on word count)

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

I think it made sense that Mary found from the boys' childhood from Toni. She never cared to ask them what their life was like.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

But even if she had asked them, I don't think they would've said anything. Dean's look in the second episode said that much when she was talking about how great John was, but she doesn't know her sons well enough to know they wouldn't shatter her illusions of John. That means not asking them, so she could get the full truth about their lives elsewhere isn't why she never asked them about it. I'd think she didn't ask because she was scared of the answer, but again, she seemed completely oblivious to the idea that John might have gotten darker and harsher after her death.

There are only two reasons I can think of for why Mary never asked them about their childhoods or looked into it on her own. 1) It was too painful to hear or read about all the milestones she missed. 2) In her mind, John was a perfect husband and father who must have been a part-time hunter, who mostly spent his time raising their sons the way she saw him be involved in raising them before she died.

Ever since we found out she was a hunter in season 4, I've gotten the impression she thought John was too soft to be a hunter. She underestimated him and never thought he was capable of being a full-time hunter despite how many cases he wrote about in his journal. It is willful ignorance on her part not to see it for what it is. She sacrificed getting to know her grown sons in favor of believing this perfect image she had of John's memory the way John sacrificed their childhoods for his memory of her.

Of course that's all head canon, because none of that's been said on screen. The only hint of it came out of Toni's mouth. Maybe we'll get more in the next episode.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

But even if she had asked them, I don't think they would've said anything. Dean's look in the second episode said that much when she was talking about how great John was, but she doesn't know her sons well enough to know they wouldn't shatter her illusions John. That means not asking them, so she could get the full truth about their lives elsewhere isn't why she never asked them about it. I'd think she didn't ask because she was scared of the answer, but again, she seemed completely oblivious to the idea that John might have gotten darker and harsher after her death.

I don't think the "even if she had asked them, I don't think they would've said anything" is an excuse. Point is she didn't ask, and she should have. Plus, getting to know someone is a process. Of course they weren't going to dump all the unpleasant info on her the first, second, third time she asked. A mother interested in her children would have started off a dialogue and kept the lines of communication open and trust me, she would have sensed something, figured out something was off, read between the lines and tried to dig deeper. That is if she had made the choice to hang out in the bunker for a bit and really immerse herself in her children's life.

Runaway Mary was never going to find a single thing about Sam and Dean because she couldn't be bothered to do the hard work it takes to reconnect with your children after a long separation. Not asking because she's scared of the answer is no excuse either. Sorry, Clue, I know you give Mary a lot of leeway but all these hypotheses lead to the same end. She's a bad mother. I don't want to know so I don't ask. I'm scared so I'd rather not know so I don't ask. It's just pathetic and makes her utterly useless.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

No, I think I may have been unclear. What I'm saying is that some people (not Mary), who might suspect things weren't all well in their children's younger years wouldn't ask their children about it if they think their children are just going to gloss over it. They might choose to find the answers themselves, so they can get at the truth, but I don't think that's what happened here, or she would've started looking into things on her own, and she didn't. I also don't think she was too afraid to ask, because she firmly believed that John was the perfect father and never would've done the things he did.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

There are only two reasons I can think of for why Mary never asked them about their childhoods or looked into it on her own. 1) It was too painful to hear or read about all the milestones she missed. 2) In her mind, John was a perfect husband and father who must have been a part-time hunter, who mostly spent his time raising their sons the way she saw him be involved in raising them before she died.

Reason 1 is not a valid excuse not to ask. If it's painful for her, a grown woman, how was it for those little boys? Again, her level of comfort is all that matters and she's utterly incapable of extending herself to her children and feel their pain.

Reason 2 is not a valid excuse not to ask. No matter what she thought about John, he's dead and Sam and Dean are not. Their story is what matters, not whatever imaginary scenario she's concocted in her head to comfort herself in the position that she doesn't have to ask Sam and Dean what their lives were really like.

Again, all of those lead to one source. She doesn't want to know because it's too much work to care so she doesn't ask. Lame.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

I still don't think it's that she couldn't be bothered to do it. I think sitting down and asking, 'So, tell me what your first day of school was like, Dean,' or 'How'd you lose your first tooth, Sam,' or 'What was Sam's first word?' would be too hard for her to ask when she's adjusting to them being adults. Most people who give up children for adoption probably wonder about those things from time to time. They probably think about the kids they had to give up on their birthdays and other times throughout the year, and so if they ever meet their grown kids, those might be things they want to ask, probably won't at first, and then after enough time may. They have time, sometimes decades, to adjust. She didn't, and I'm not saying what she did was right.

I actually don't like Mary much at all. I think this willful denial of reality she has is what got her killed and Sam infected with Azazel's blood. I think she's a selfish, not just because of how she's dealt with her sons this season or because she went hunting without ever telling John that's what she was doing when Dean was a baby, but because she never told John about hunting, her deal, anything that would've made his life or her son's lives easier/safer after her deal came due . . . She did all that for her, not them. I think she's manipulative and has betrayed her sons in her pursuit to rid the world of monsters for them. I am really annoyed at how she's meant to be the best hunter who ever lived now for some reason.

What I'm looking for here is motivation. If a character does or doesn't do something, there has to be a motivation for it from a story perspective. I understand that you've had enough and are ready for her to go. I totally get it. I just want my motivation from a story perspective first. I don't need to like her character to try and find it. :)

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

I agree that Mary's in denial which is why I loved Toni Bevell slapping her with a fistful of truths about herself.

I've already found my motivation for every last one of Mary's actions, that's why I'm ready to let her go. I don't believe she's deep, complex, logical or even intelligent and I'm convinced she's several fries short of a happy meal lol.

I understand that you're looking for your motivation and I'm sure you'll find it since Mary seems to be sticking around ;).

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

It is willful ignorance on her part not to see it for what it is. She sacrificed getting to know her grown sons in favor of believing this perfect image she had of John's memory the way John sacrificed their childhoods for his memory of her.

I agree 100% :)

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

And yet more thoughts:

I'm so annoyed that they introduced Crowley into the BMoL plot. It feels like nothing more than a last ditch effort to tie everything together, but it's sloppy and yet another thing that's happened without the Winchesters knowing. I thought before that this would be like season 4 if we'd seen Ruby's every move. Now it just feels like season 6 if we'd seen every move Crowley, Samuel, and Cas made off screen. Guess we can add yet more hypocrisy to the BMoL, as if killing innocent people to keep their secrets hidden or get their way in the name of saving people isn't enough. And now we're putting the nephilim on par with Chuck and Amara? Hate this storyline, both storylines, all story lines sooo much.

Cheesy music while the Winchesters are searching for bugs, something that took too long. I don't just mean that scene, I mean finding it period.

I'd complain about this reverse polarity thing being just a way for Lucifer to get free if it wasn't such an obvious thing that Crowley was doing, so Lucifer can lead him to the nephilim. The last time we saw Crowley, he wanted Lucifer to help him find the nephilim, and then all of a sudden, the thing that keeps Lucifer under Crowley's control is reversed? So obvious. It really makes Lucifer look bad . . . again. That's all they seem to do with him now days (I really wish he'd never been let out of the cage).

Hess playing Toni against Ketch for control over the US, just like she had them do as kids . . . ugh. Don't care. Don't like any of this. How much of this show is going to be taken up by the BMoL, Mary, Crowley and Lucifer? Almost all of it from the looks of things.

Sam Smith's acting was great when she was with Ketch, but 'All my life, all I've ever had other than my family was my will.' Seriously? As already stated, her will has been used to willfully ignore any real problems and her family in favor of seeing them the way she wants to see them.

3/4

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

Thoughts continued again:
I can sympathize with Mary not wanting to be brainwashed, but it really doesn't make me like her much after what she's been like the rest of the season. I also feel like they softened Toni in this episode, maybe so they can have her work with the Winchesters to get out of the bunker, but again, it doesn't really make me like her.

So obvious that Crowley smoked into the rat while Lucifer was looking at the blonde demon. His body was just laying there when Lucifer stabbed him, and there was no spark. Thought we already did this at the end of season 10/start of season 11 with attack dog Cas and Crowley. Again Lucifer looks bad, because he didn't notice. I know pride is his biggest flaw, but come on, learn something.

While I liked the shoot out in the bunker a lot, I was annoyed by the set up, because in order for it to happen, the Winchesters had to do something foolish by taking Toni there even after she said that the BMoL would come for her and after knowing they have free access to the bunker. They didn't even think to check that anything was out of place before they casually strolled in with Toni?

They definitely softened Toni, because in the first two episodes, she would've had no problem getting out of Sam using her as a shield.

They really went for the final bond villain trope regarding the BMoL at the end. I mean, why change now? Might as well go all the way with it by leaving the Winchesters 2 days to find a way out of the bunker. Does that mean they're going to go all the way with the Lion King regarding Lucifer and the nephilim?

Rating 2/10 (For Badass!Dean during the shootout and Sam Smith's acting during the Ketch scene.)

When the Winchesters are on screen, there's still a bit of sparkle to this show. There's just not enough of them, and when they are on, they feel like second tier characters that the writers no longer feel are important enough for us to get their POV.

4/4

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[–] cassiopeia (528) 8 years ago

One of the very few bright spots of the ep...

https://68.media.tumblr.com/25bf67cfab557cae0b9be245584c4332/tumblr_opu9pfQhUh1vb6li3o1_540.gif

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

Dean, thanks to Jensen, was all kinds of amazing in that scene.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

When the Winchesters are on screen, there's still a bit of sparkle to this show. There's just not enough of them, and when they are on, they feel like second tier characters that the writers no longer feel are important enough for us to get their POV.

Biggest problem this season!

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

I'd complain about this reverse polarity thing being just a way for Lucifer to get free if it wasn't such an obvious thing that Crowley was doing, so Lucifer can lead him to the nephilim. The last time we saw Crowley, he wanted Lucifer to help him find the nephilim, and then all of a sudden, the thing that keeps Lucifer under Crowley's control is reversed? So obvious.

I like your theory but isn't it a huge risk to take for Crowley? Reversing the polarity means that Lucifer can tap into his archangel powers again and Crowley knows from experience that he's no match for a fully powered, heck, maybe half powered Lucifer. He would have been a goner had Olivette not been strolling around at the perfect time (not sure it was Olivette but I like the idea lol).

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

It was a huge risk, but he's Crowley. He thinks 10 steps ahead. ;)

Yeah, the rat was convenient, but I still think it had to be Crowley's intent. My brain won't allow me to accept that one minute the polarity or whatever was fully in Crowley's favor and the next for no reason whatsoever it was reversed. It had to be intentional. If he hadn't just given Lucifer his final chance to tell him where the nephilim is, and if the demon examining Lucifer had noticed the polarity reversing even a little before that meeting, I may not think it. If I'm wrong . . . I don't know. My mind really can't wrap itself around the concept of this reverse polarity issue happening after all this time with no warning and no reason. My mind won't even let me accept bad writing as an explanation. I think I'll be angry if it was just happened unexpectedly, but not until after I'm confused for quite a while.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

Yeah I also found the reversal really strange. Crowley knows how to use magic and I would love it if reversing the polarity was part of his plan all along. The Mc Leods are good at cheating death. Rowena survived after Lucifer snapped her neck.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

I'm more than a little worried about [spoiler]Rowena[/spoiler] after seeing the SPPT promo.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

Yeah, the lock of hair... I'm worried too, I love her.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

[spoiler]And the blood that seems to be all over the chair and stuff on the desk.[/spoiler] I love her too and would hate to lose her. It would really piss me off.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

I guess we just have to brace ourselves. Mark did say we would hate Lucifer in the finale...

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

Yeah. I'm wondering if there would be the same kind of backlash as there was for Eileen. Do people really like [spoiler] Rowena?[/spoiler]

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

She's fairly popular.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

I think someone mentioned that Eileen couldn't hear the hound and that made it harder for her to locate it.
I don't know, the death by hellhound thing was strange because I don't like the idea of a mere mortal controlling a hound of Hell.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 8 years ago

I didn't like Ketch having a pet hellhound either, although it was a little funny when he had it in a cage and was giving it treats for sitting or not sitting after Toni blew the whistle. While I dislike the way Eileen was so unceremoniously killed, I was actually okay with Eileen not being able to kill the hellhound, because as far as I know she didn't have any weapons that would work on it, but for me, it makes the episode where the hellhound could be deterred by axes and water coolers more ridiculous. I think maybe making them as big of a threat as they used to be was actually something that was in keeping with previous canon in a way that I wouldn't expect from the NepDuo . . . but then Ketch had a pet hellhound, so that more than negates it.

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[–] debbab (4) 8 years ago

Not sure if I am waiting for the finale because it might be good or that it will put a painful year to an end. Some episodes this season are terrific, but the overall arc of BMOL is not supernatural just twisted folks unless there is a twist. Crowley being in league with BMOL not surprising but he seems taken aback at the thought of giving up his Moose and Squirrel. He does have an affinity for rodents...so that rat following his corpse tells us he transferred himself perhaps prior to the coup de grace. Season feels like a bridge season to a Lucifer big bad? I knew Eileen was going to get killed. Strong, female, likes Sam, Sam likes her.. yup fits SPN pattern. I do appreciate "Sam's tear" when viewing Eileen's corpse. It was a set up episode for the finales and not sure I can re-watch it. This writing duo never does the show justice, seriously. Never thought I would want Dabb to give it up and give us back Carver. Feeling with low ratings, last year may be it for show. J2 have to feel it, but being so busy with new babies this year, perhaps it was easier to just act the script given. Maybe the finales can redeem the season.

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[–] Icarus (78) 8 years ago

Not seen it yet but as lots of people are very critical of Dabb (me included) thought I would mention that I have read elsewhere that Jared praised him very highly indeed at the con in Australia, think that is where he said it so...............I can only assume they like him because he gives them lots of time off! By the way I usually read Alice Jester's reviews and she is often very critical herself about SPN episodes and has been for several years now.

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[–] Idahoforspn (61) 8 years ago

I would think Jared should like Dabb. IMO Sam has been giving the vast majority of the positive, hero writing this year. What's not to like.

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[–] EmaSlo (22) 8 years ago

This whole season is a fiasco, as is this episode.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 8 years ago

Hey EmaSio, I agree it's discouraging to see an episode like this so close to the finale. Doesn't give much hope that the season could end on a decent note.

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[–] jfru20 (68) 8 years ago

I'll have to watch it again, but like usual it's not up to its "Supernatural standards"
I don't like that they killed off another good potential ongoing character
More and more it feels like another alternate universe with the British around
Wasn't Garth supposed to be in this episode?

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