Looking back at the show after all those years (and currently rewatching S2) I'm now convinced that the two worst things that happened to this show were Raelle Tucker leaving the writing staff and Kim Manners passing. I believe those two made this show unique, brought quality to it, and they were never properly replaced. What do you think?
I think that the cracks that have become chasms in the foundations we see today really started when we lost Kim Manners.
Raelle Tucker was definitely a writer this show needed at the start, because she was one of the pieces of the puzzle that helped flesh out the characters and their relationships through dialogue and plot to make them more than the stereotypes that Kripke originally envisioned (The same can be said for Kim Manners).
I think because of how seasons 6 and 7 turned out a lot of people don't give Sera Gamble as much credit as they should for her scripts prior to when she was showrunner. Up until he came back in season 8, the same could be said about Carver (his individual scripts after he came back weren't the best). We lost Edlund, who could be hit or miss towards the end, but who understood the characters.
I would say that hiring writers who weren't there from the start (or at least from season 2 or 3 onwards), who don't have to watch all the episodes before they begin writing, and who don't have a show bible to follow might be one of the worst things that's happened to this show.
You're right, SPN would definitely be better if everybody coming to the show would have taken the time to learn what's special about this show. I think it's preposterous that they don't have to watch the thing that they are involved with. It's also completely unprofessional imo. How can you do anything justice that way? And yes, a show bible would have been helpful as well. But all this just tells that there aren't enough people who really care.
--I think because of how seasons 6 and 7 turned out a lot of people don't give Sera Gamble as much credit as they should for her scripts prior to when she was showrunner.--
Here I'm not so sure. The scripts I like best are those that she wrote with Raelle Tucker, the others not so much, so it's hard to say how much credit should be given to whom.
"Here I'm not so sure. The scripts I like best are those that she wrote with Raelle Tucker, the others not so much, so it's hard to say how much credit should be given to whom."
For me, the episodes Gamble did on her own were still pretty good prior to her becoming showrunner. Here's how I'd break them down.
I think these Gamble episodes I dislike: (I'd put The Curious Case of Dean Winchester here, but she co-wrote that with Jenny Klein)
I think these Gamble episodes are okay-ish (range from meh to pretty good, so there's a wide range, but I have and would rewatch these a number of times.): Heart, The Kids Are Alright, Time Is on My Side, IKWYDLS, It's a Terrible Life, When the Levee Breaks (there are a lot of things I don't like in this episode, but it's where the storyline was going), Two Minutes to Midnight
I really like these Gamble episodes: Bloodlust, Crossroad Blues, Houses of the Holy, Are you there God? It's me Dean Winchester, Good God, Y'all,
I love these Gamble episodes: AHBL 1, Fresh Blood, DaLDoM, Jus In Bello
Don't get me wrong. I really like the ones she co-wrote with Raelle Tucker too, like I think Dead in the Water gives another layer to Dean in how he talks about his Mom and the way he relates to the kid that still holds true to who Dean is today, and I think that Raelle Tucker probably had a lot to do with that given that she also wrote What Is and Should Never Be, but I also think that Sera Gamble made a big contribution to the early seasons of the show too.
shareI forgot how many she's written, and yeah, I guess I let those I didn't like (I hated 'The Kids Are Alright' for example) and the show runner years cloud my judgement a bit. There's indeed some fine epsiodes that she's written, thanks for reminding me.
I don't even have that much issues with S6, but around that time SPN became more generic, and the characters became a bit too much like caricatures of their former selves. It lost some of it's heart. But some of it started before S6 I think (in S3 for example by changing the lighting, losing the rock music...) , and I don't want to overlook the good stuff in S6 and 7. The thing is, although there were highs, over the years the usual quality level dropped significantly, too much cheap stuff, playing it safe, getting too comfortable.
That's a good point about the lighting and music. I'd also add that in seasons 1-3 they used 35mm and changed to digital starting in season 4, which made things glossier/less gritty in my opinion. Couple that with the lighting and music differences, and there was a noticeable change that got more pronounced from season 6 onwards when they changed to a different digital format.
share--I'd also add that in seasons 1-3 they used 35mm and changed to digital starting in season 4, which made things glossier/less gritty--
I didn't know that. Explains a lot. Do you know why they did this?
"It lost some of it's heart. But some of it started before S6 I think (in S3 for example by changing the lighting, losing the rock music...) , and I don't want to overlook the good stuff in S6 and 7. The thing is, although there were highs, over the years the usual quality level dropped significantly, too much cheap stuff, playing it safe, getting too comfortable."
I completely agree. S6 and S7 had problems, but I don't think they were as bad as they've been sometimes portrayed. I think that pacing is one of the things that those seasons suffer from the most, and it's a problem that's carried on since then.
The ideas for things like the Alphas and Eve and Cas working with Crowley to stop Raphael would've been better had they been given time to build them up and deliver something powerful over maybe 1.5 seasons, instead of moderately building them up and then having them fizzle out, because the Soulless Sam thing was also going on at the same time. The Leviathan could've probably taken up a bit less time, so .5 a season for that.
Season 8. What to say about Season 8? I would've left the season finale for 7 the same, but done something, like not have a time jump, have Sam going to psychics/witches to find out where Dean was and trying to communicate with him from this side of the grave. I would've had Dean maybe getting messages from Sam and fighting his way through Purgatory trying to survive and find Cas until they could figure out a way to get him out. That could've been 3-4 episodes right there, maybe more depending on what they decided to do. There wouldn't have been any of the manufactured brotherly-angst we got in Season 8. The angst would've come from the brothers being physically separated rather than emotionally separated. Then they could've worked together to get Kevin back once Dean got out of Purgatory. The Cas and Naomi storyline could've been kept the same.
Even if they'd kept all of season 8 as is, Abaddon and the angels in season 9 could've both been more thoroughly explored and made more menacing. If done well, I wouldn't have minded if they'd spread that out over 1.5 seasons either. The MOC/DemonDean/MOC/Darkness storyline suffered from pacing too. Season 6 really seemed to be start of this trend of throwing a bunch of different things into a season that all need to be covered though. We had Azazel for 2 seasons and Lilith for 2 seasons. It doesn't all have to be done in 1 season if it's done well.
Sorry. Went off on a bit of a tangent there.
shareNo need to apologize, I like your suggestions, they make a lot of sense! I especially like what you would have done with S8, it sounds quite epic.
Yeah the pacing might be a factor that influences the quality a great deal. I guess a big problem is that they only plan one season arcs. But since the show seems to have been pretty safe over the last years, they could have made a big story line that spreads over more seasons and take the time to really get into it, and the characters. Then there also wouldn't have been the problem to always come up with a new big threat, no matter how absurd.