MovieChat Forums > Flywheel (2003) Discussion > Completely Misleading Message

Completely Misleading Message

posted 17 years ago by Stephenmarshster
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The movies produced by Sherwood are absolutely horrendous. Flywheel and Facing the Giants provide a completely unrealistic outlook on the Christian life. Does it not seem strange that just because Jay starts praising God that good things happen to him, i.e. he sells every single car on the lot in one day so that he doesn't lose his business?
Does it not seem strange that when the football team in Facing the Giants starts praising God suddenly they start winning every single game, then the other team gets disqualified in the playoffs, then they win the championship game against the Giants with a 50 yard (which many college kickers have trouble doing) field goal made by a kid who had only kicked once before in a high school game but because he prayed to God beforehand then magically the wind blows in his favor and his kick is good? (I don't care if I spoiled it for anyone)
God is not our cosmic bellhop or convenient magician who will do tricks for us at the closing of an eye or the bending of a knee. These movies send the complete wrong message to anyone who either A)Is not a Christian or B)Is struggling with Christianity because of trials in their life or C)Both. I would say I fall under category B and frankly, these movies piss me off, but I watch them because of how hilarious they are from their lack of quality.
I hope Fireproof is just as good as these two so that my roommates and I can laugh at and criticize the gaping holes that exist in their theology.

[–] gsellars-1 17 years ago

Stephenmarshster is proof that the devil watches Christian movies. He's also evidence of one who has does not know God.

"Strange"? So strange that it's evident that only God would do it.

Is it reality? No, it's a movie.

Is it like a real life relationship with God, where, when we repent and trust Him, He works miracles in our lives? Absolutely!

Keep laughing, Stephen... and keep missing the blessings of repentance.

While you're laughing, remember that Esau got more than a laugh; he got a bowl of food, and he was still short-changed. How little you settle for.

[–] Stephenmarshster 17 years ago

wow... what a remarkable response. I was really hoping to stir something up but being given devil status... now that's great. And I really appreciate the support from a Christian when I made it clear that I am struggling with my faith.

Okay, let me list off some bad things that have happened to people who keep "missing the the blessings of repentance" as well even though they are devout believers.

1. A family I know in South Carolina just lost a husband and father after a bicycle accident.

2. Another man I once knew died a few years ago from lung cancer. He was never a smoker. He battled it for several years before the cancer finally took his life. He spent the whole time preaching the Gospel and showing the love of God to others.

3. The numerous Christian marriages that end in divorce... and there's really know way that you can say that these work miracles in people's lives.

4. Go read JOB. It's in the Old Testament. You may have heard of it. Not everyone gets blessed because they believe in the Gospel. And others get blessed when they don't believe in the Gospel. You really think God financially blesses only those who believe in him? That's absurd. Look at all the Jewish Americans who are extremely wealthy. I don't think they believe in the Gospel the way Jay Austin did.

I don't really understand what you are trying to imply about the Esau reference. That doesn't make sense. What exactly am I settling on??

My original point was that your "Health and Wealth" Gospel that is so boldly promoted in the Sherwood movies is not real to what happens to people who believe. I mean, if they are making movies like this that are supposedly "ministry tools" shouldn't they show reality?? I mean, Saving Private Ryan showed everyone what war really was in all it's gore and graphic reality. If they followed the Sherwood productions method they should have only showed Germans as the ones who were dying because the Americans were so noble that we don't want people to really believe that bad things happened to them-Bull... Yes, I'm sure some people are blessed with financial success the way Jay Austin was, and because they are believers they go on to believe that they are receiving these blessings solely because they are believers. Does that make sense?

Also, I realize that movies aren't always supposed to be reality but by saying what you said, aren't you basically admitting that it really isn't reality??

[–] dollybuckingham 17 years ago

I really enjoyed Facing the Giants, it is one of my favorite movies. To me, one of the main messages of the movie is - yes God, I'm still going to love You no matter what because I know You love me. And that really is the point of the book of Job too - because Job's final response is "I know my Redeemer lives." I'm looking forward to watching Flywheel, I hope it's as good as Facing the Giants.

[–] gsellars-1 17 years ago

I think you'll really like it. In my opinion, though the budget is lower (it was the first movie) it's the better for two reasons. One, it message is more pure and true to the Word (a championship team must have skill and ability to win and not just the blessing of God), and two, it hits "closer to home" by dealing with subjects over which we have control -- our own motives and repentance. We can't control what the rest of the team will do.

Because one is on a personal level only and the other is about a team, I prefer Flywheel, but that's only an opinion -- my best friend likes Facing The Giants better.

...and again, the messages that Kendrick tells are the completely legitimate. Those who can't see that have nothing but an "intellectual religion" with no power. Look at their testimony -- they'll tell you they see no power nor evidence of God in their lives. This is a HUGE reason why they struggle so -- God is so distant.

God is real and works in the lives of those who trust Him and He most definitely answers prayer and does great things for those "whose hearts are perfect towards Him." (That doesn't mean one has to be perfect; it just means one's heart must be devoted to loving the Lord.)

I learned many years ago that "unbelief will ALWAYS find justification in the circumstances that it both expects and gets."

[–] lovingchristian 14 years ago

This has been a rather interesting post. I would like to make a few comments. I believe that the primary message of the movie was the Gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ, which simply is... God tells us that He loves the World in John 3:16. He also tells us that NO ONE is righteous or perfect-- we've all done something wrong. (Romans 3:10 &3:23). That creates a problem, since God cannot allow sinners (imperfect people) into heaven... see Psalm 5:4, 2 Peter 3:13, or Revelation 21:27. To remedy this problem, Jesus Christ (God's Son) came into the world and lived a perfect life (see Hebrews 4:14-15). Then He died on the cross and laid down His life to pay the wages of sin (see Romans 6:23). He raised back to life 3 days later, showing us that the payment had been accepted. Now He offers us His perfection in place of our imperfection. (Hebrews 10:10 &14). If we place our trust in the payment Jesus made on our behalf, the Bible tells us that we will be saved!(Romans 10:9 &13) Saved from the wages of sin which is eternal separation from God. This means that God has given you a personal invitation to join Him in His Home called Heaven. Your entrance fee has been paid. All you need to do is by Faith place your trust in Him that His Word is True when He says you are a sinner and your sin-debt has been paid in full!
This is the main point of the movie. A secondary point, which was exaggerated for emphasis, was that God does indeed bless His children when we trust Him by faith. The film never once showed the characters "Naming it and Claiming it" such as prosperity preachers often claim. Rather, the characters by faith asked God's intervention in their lives, especially when they were overwhelmed in their situations.
God has never promised us prosperity but He does promise to meet our needs (Matthew 6:24-34). Since God is good He does give us out of His goodness. In Luke 11:9-13 God promises to give us His Holy Spirit (also called the Comforter) if we ask Him.
So in those times of need when we lose loved ones unexpectedly or we lose financial prosperity (since we like to reference Job so much) or things don't seem to make sense, God tells us to ask and it shall be given. What shall be given? Verse 13 or Luke 11 tells us... The Holy Spirit! That means if we are Children of God (Christians) as John 1:12 tells us we can become, then He will not only provide our physical necessities but will also stay near us in our greatest trials. I believe Hebrews 13:5 sums it up best..."Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."
I believe that these points are the intent of the filmmakers. I hope this brings clarity for anyone who reads these posts and ponders the words they read. May God richly bless each of you who read this. Remember the main point of the film... God is reaching out to you... He has paid for your sins.... He is inviting you to spend eternity with Him in Heaven! I hope to see you there some day!

[–] stevenlposns 17 years ago

Keep struggling with your faith. When you stop struggling, satan wins. When you think everything is hunky-dory, then you have no reason to rely on God. Now if you know ahead of time that because you believe in God and do what He actually wants you to you are going to face hardships and be scorned by the majority of society (even "Christians") and you're still happy because YOU know that your Redeemer lives, then you're in the right place. Screw the world; even when Christians hear this TRUE message, it seems foreign to them because it's not what they want to hear.

I can't count the number of times people have misinterpreted the verse that says "He who can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much." It doesn't say "He who can be trusted with very little WILL be trusted with much later on." It's just saying how if you're responsible with little pidly things here on earth, then you can be trusted with the true riches i.e. heaven.

But yeah, these movies, inspiring though they can be, are total malarky. The director is not very good and the actors are not the worst I've seen, but pretty n00bish. Even if they are based on true stories, I agree they're sending the wrong message. These will only cause MORE confusion when people "turn their lives over to Christ" and bad crap still happens to them.

end rant

[–] gsellars-1 17 years ago

You've misrepresented God's Word, stevenlposns.

What it says is that "he who is faithful in little is faithful also in much."

When you consider another scripture that says, "If you are not faithful with what belongs to another, who will entrust you with what is your own?" and yet another that says, "Promotion comes not from the east or from the west, but promotion comes from the Lord" and yet another that says, "See the man skilled in his work. He will stand before kings; he will not stand before obscure men" and then look at life and what happens in the natural world, you'll see that all these scriptures do indeed apply to this world.

The movies send the message that if you repent and give God your life and your best, He'll bless you greatly.

That either of you guys can't find that principle in your Bible shows only that you don't know your Bible well and have been lied to by those your respect.

Hint -- you're listening to the wrong people.

[–] jakc 14 years ago

Of course the actors in these movies are pretty "Noobish", that is because they are ALL volunteers (for the most part) from the local church that does this ministry. I have only seen one big name actor in movies by Alex and Stephen Kendrick and that is Kirk Cameron. I feel that these movies are meant to be conversation starters for Christians to share with those that are either struggling or have no faith. I have watched some of these types of movies with a friend of mine who is Jewish and they always have her asking questions of me about faith and Jesus.

[–] gsellars-1 17 years ago

Stephenmarshster, what you made clear is that you absolutely do not understand faith or repentance or God's Word and neither do you believe in the power and grace of God. Had you known anything about any of those things, or of humility for that matter, you would not have condemned and repudiated Sherwood's movies.

It would be sidestepping the real issue for me to address your "objections" because you don't understand what you're talking about, which was exposed when you admitted you're "struggling" with your faith, but I will shortly address how you can learn how to properly assess the issues which you think you understand but don't.

I've seen both movies and your criticism shows you're the one with the problem. It's not surprising inasmuch as by your second post you reveal that you feed at the trough of spiritual pigs who think "good theology" is evidenced by criticism of everyone who preaches that God tangibly blesses people in response to faith.

The fact that the Son of God repudiates their unbelief in John 14:13 *and many other places in the Bible* will continue to escape their notice until they too, humble themselves and repent of their *own ways* and realize that God didn't put them in charge of dispensing Bible knowledge and their pride and their evil motives blind them to the truth. (Understand that I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they aren't deliberately fleecing the sheep) That type of "ministry" *breeds* the kind of struggle you have. That shouldn't be hard to see. It's not theology, it's pride and unbelief and contrary to Old and New Testament theology. Your teachers are doing exactly what Phelps (you know him don't you -- if not type "phelps hate" in Google) is doing; they *pick* the scriptures they want to emphasize and ignore those contrary to what they believe/preach. *Now, the fact that many others do the same thing is neither here nor there*. Doing so is not only wrong, but it misrepresents God and His Word and makes both the promoter and the listener *hard of hearing* and insensitive to the genuine living Word of God. Discernment doesn't come by wanting to straighten everyone else out; it comes by "abiding in God's Word," humbling yourself and obeying what the Lord tells you.

Does is take an extremely intelligent person to see that one who is "struggling with their faith" has no business posting the remarks you first posted? Can't you see the conflict between the arrogance shown in your first post with the humility that you *should* be showing if you are in fact "struggling"? If you're "struggling" then doesn't that place you in the position of "learner" and doesn't that mean you have no business speaking arrogantly as an authority of doctrine? This is to your shame; I shouldn't have to point this out to you. You tout your theology as bluster and practically before you catch your breath, you acknowledge your own confusion.

This isn't a theology forum so I'm not going to spend the many hours it would take trying to straighten you out, placate you or try to upgrade your unbelief that you very wrongly believe is "sound" theology. It wouldn't do any good anyway because you're brainwashed and can't see clearly. Your shallowness and lack of genuinely sound theology is evidenced in everything you say, including your reference to Job. You do not understand the primary messages of Job, just as you don't understand the overtly clear message of Galatians, and you WON'T friend, until you STOP listening to men tell you what the Bible means and learn how to hear God reveal His Word to you and you'll only do that when you SHUT UP and open your ears and bury your face in His Word.

If you *really* want to get beyond your "struggle" and get to know God, STOP listening to those who you *think* know what they're talking about, *quit* valuing, rehearsing and speaking your opinion to others (can't you see the problem with your offering spiritual guidance when you're struggling?), get off the forums, pick up your Bible, recognize that you desperately need God's help and grace in your life and steadfastly determine to *believe* Hebrews 11:6. This *requires* hearing His voice (John 10:27), not the voice of self-appointed "authorities." Those are pretty simple instructions. Your sincerity will be demonstrated by whether you *do* it. You'll find that in Matthew 7:24. Your "struggle" is what the Bible calls unbelief and the answer is John 8:31-32.

Is this too strong? Read your first post and try to pick up your arrogance, pride and insulting spirit and then recognize the answer is appropriate. Oh, and BTW, I didn't give you "devil status." I simply pointed out who you're hearing and know for certain that I am telling you that you hear the devil much more clearly than you hear God.

That's not God's design and it's not the least bit surprising that you would be "struggling." If you don't humble yourself, you'll go from "struggling" to either full blown Pharisee (of which you're already very close) or "Yeah, I used to be a Christian, but I finally realized how bogus it all was."

As a pastor friend used to say, "A word to the wise is usually sufficient."

If you're even slightly listening, the sermon on the mount is a good place to spend *three months* meditating, but the *start* is to recognize that God's Word is absolutely true and it means what HE SAYS, not what others say it means. One of your biggest obstacles is getting rid of the garbage that you've swallowed from your mentors. This is *why* you need to spend all your spare time MEDITATING on God's Word. If you'll approach His Word in faith (and NOT through the FILTER of what you THINK you know!) and be faithful to give it your time, you will return with a good report. Jesus said plainly, "If you ABIDE in My Word, then you're truly My disciples and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make your free." Note the similarity of that with Psalms 1 and it shouldn't be too hard before you see your grievous error. While you're meditating on that scripture, note how it is almost universally stripped of the condition (when it is MISquoted) by those who prostitute the Gospel and are looking for "nickels, numbers and noses." No, I know you don't understand that either, but if you seek the Lord with all your heart, someday you will.

If you do these things, my remark about Esau will become perfectly clear.

P.S.

If you need help turning away from those who "teach" you, then ask God to open your eyes to the truth *and* the scriptures that will show you their motives are *identical* to the motives of those who they condemn.

Stephenmarshster, it's now been over two years since this was written. I hope you took my well-intentioned words, humbled yourself and actually got to know the Lord. If you didn't and you're still alive, then it's not too late.

I hope you've learned that one doesn't get closer to the Lord by mocking and condemning those who're ministering to others, which is what Sherwood was and is doing. I do so hope that you've not hardened your heart worse and are not ever farther from the Lord than you were when you first wrote on this movie, but I'll tell you that it's not normal to be stagnant. One tends to draw closer to or farther from the Lord.

[–] silverbullets 17 years ago

gsellers, I honestly had trouble reading the entirety of this last post of yours. You castigate a Christian struggling with faith and suffering, telling him that he's lacking in humility and then expect him to believe that your word is wise and worthy to be listened to and followed? Without love, how is this going to help? You claim to understand Scripture better than others. This is hard for me to swallow, considering your "arrogance, pride and insulting spirit" that you ironically condemned him with. His initial reply to you was clear that he posted not to flame people but because he genuinely wanted to spark dialog about this topic. He didn't insult you of anything; you took insult because he was questioning a movie he didn't like that you do like. Is that honestly cause for this sort of response?

I don't understand why we take things so personally when someone doesn't like a movie we love. I don't think that the filmmakers would be as offended as you have been, nor respond in such a way. I personally liked Facing the Giants for what it was, and I was okay with their defense that they based all the 'miracles' on things they had seen in real life. However, if I wasn't a Christian, I don't know that I would buy that, though. I think that stephenmarshter's perspective is valid at the same time. Just because you have experienced certain things doesn't mean that building a theology on that experience will communicate the same experience to someone else. I don't think the filmmakers were trying to communicate a theology, per se, but clearly it can come off that way. I would venture to say that this film was largely more designed for a Christian audience (or at least people who have some church experience and understand that language.) I would be interested to hear from non-Christians who watched this--what did they come away with? I think the responses would be varied, depending on where they're coming from.

I think the bottom line for me, at least, is that yes, God often blesses us materially or in an immediate way when we turn things over to him. This does, in fact, happen as you say. On the other hand, turning things over to him doesn't guarantee that his response will be something immediately pleasant, easy to understand, or happy. In fact, I tend to see that often he responds with obvious miracles and the like more often to people new in their faith who need this sort of confirmation. Of course, that's not a rule at all; just an observation. Life with God, after all, isn't something you can boil down to a formula, and I think the Bible is super clear on that. I agree with you, stephen, that if this storyline was theology, there would indeed be problems with it. There are no easy answers. I could comment on all three situations you mentioned, but they might not be satisfying to you anyway. Explanations--even when they are true or partially true--often don't cut it for us because I don't believe God created us to live off of cut-and-dry two-dimensional things. He made us complex because he is complex. That seems like a curse sometimes, but I believe that in accepting this often uncomfortable reality, we are then able to struggle forward and live life more truly and fully.

And stories CAN speak to us of 'theology' and should reflect the truth--but it should go beyond a 'message'. Good story speaks for itself and doesn't rely on its message, and that's where many 'Christian' films seem to go wrong. I think C.S. Lewis' most powerful work of fiction is his least popular title, Till We Have Faces. It's based on the Greek myth of Psyche and Cupid, and was very much not written as an allegory whatsoever. But there is something deeply spiritual and true about the story. There is a line (which doesn't make as much sense without knowing the story, but is still powerful) in which the main character, Oruel, says this at the end of the previously unseen god: Now I know that you, yourself are the answer. Before your face the questions flee away. Never did I truly know you ... I haven't said it well, but for me, there is something to the notion that there are often no linear, concrete answers that will satisfy our questions until we see his face. It's akin to the biblical statement that truth is not a concept but the person of Jesus. Strange that we still often make our idea of "biblical truth" into a god that we elevate above God himself...

[–] gsellars-1 17 years ago

silverbullets, you focused on the wrong aspects of my comments, but that's entirely understandable since *they weren't directed to you*.

Because they weren't directed to you, I don't expect you to understand them and I'm not going to defend them to you.

We're all different; we all have different gifts and perspectives. The guy to whom my remarks were directed heard them differently than you (I hope) and is the guy who will (also hopefully) deal with them. If he does, I hope he comes back someday to give a positive response, after God does a work in his heart, which work will help him immensely in his "struggling."

[–] spanoglejf1 17 years ago

Are you as shallow as health and wealth gospel?

You know neither scripture nor the history of Christian sufferings. The early church did not prosper when it turned itself over to God, in fact the church at Jerusalem had to depend on gifts from around the Roman world. Peter's epistles are all about suffering and for good reason...for the next 250 yrs or so, Christians died, were stripped of all belongings, had challenges of faith we will never know and these things still go on today around the world. Try your so-called theology of blessing to Christians in the Sudan who get their children stolen and sold into slavery simply because they are Christians. Or Africa where civil war unrest leads Muslim extremists to brutally massacre Christians in broad daylight. What is your so-called message of 'blessing' to them? They need to repent more? They aren't strong enough in their faith? gsellars-1, you do not understand faith nor the God of scripture if your answer is positive to those questions. come live among us who are working through the real world.

I believe you simply rely on personal attacks and 'higher spiritual faith' rather than objective truth to make your point. Especially the whole thing about comparing his 'struggle with faith' to that of a somehow lesser knowledgeable Christian. Those who struggle are alive. In fact, i would learn from Stephenmarshster before i would learn from you, gsellars1. "If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself." At least Stephenmarshster is admitting his struggle and honestly evaluating reality and scripture. What happened to the attitude of, "I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things." Knowing Christ is the blessing that Paul points to. Facing the Giants and Flywheel both show a shallow Christian worldview and are steeped in moralism rather than the gospel. Jesus Christ did not come to die simply to make our lives easier or more comfortable...He died so that we could be disciplined as Sons of God and still have a reason to believe through the hard times (heb12.7).

As for the original poster's comments about the movie and tv show...i completely agree. the movies are shallow and unrealistic and most dangerously of all moralistic not gospel.

Also, as for this last reply of "The guy to whom my remarks were directed heard them differently than you" is clearly not a comment coming from a Biblical worldview of objective truth. If we read your comments, they are saying something objective that we can critique. Don't give some postmodernist BS about different perspectives. You confuse reader response with pluralistic truth.

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] gsellars-1 14 years ago

"we still often make our idea of "biblical truth" into a god that we elevate above God himself... "

I think that's exactly what you've done. As I have said often, to many on the web, your problem is largely those to whom you lend your ear. You need to turn them off and get in the Bible. Your writings show a Biblical perspective that is rife with things that simply aren't God.

How can you tell? Examine the Bible. It says "These signs shall follow them that believe..." Do those you hear, speak in tongues? Cast out demons? Lay hands on the sick? Is JHWH-Rapha their doctor? Is He yours?

1Cor12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Is that what your church looks like? Does your pastor recognize apostles and prophets? Do miracles and gifts of healings occur in your church? Do tongues and interpretation and prophecy occur in your church? (BTW, "prophecy" is NOT "preaching")

If you don't see the BIBLICAL SPECIFICS that I've just given you in your church, then I suggest that your "Biblical standard" is skewed, perverse, unscriptural, and the reason for your extremely bad theology. I again suggest you get in the Bible and learn to know the voice of Jesus. That is, if John 10:27 is still in your Bible. Is it? Then why are you listening to men tell you what the Bible means instead of hearing from Jesus yourself? Is 1John 2:27 in your Bible? So why do you get your theology from men? I know why. Because you don't hear so good from God yourself. It requires faith and if you understood that the way you should, you would have never opened your mouth against me in the first place.

You see and know the conflicts with various sects, denominations and groups. Inasmuch as what I've given you are direct statements from Jesus first and then the Apostle Paul, I suggest that you would be wise to take them to heart start there. Why there? Because that's where Jesus started. When He preached, He also healed and cast out demons. YOUR BIBLE says, "The Lord worked with them, confirming the Word with signs following." Mark 16:20 When what a man preaches pleases the Lord, He works the signs and wonders to confirm it. Now, your Bible says that but the people you hear don't preach that. There's a problem here, especially in light of "we still often make our idea of "biblical truth" into a god that we elevate above God himself... ," and I might add, "even above God's Word."

You see, it's not what you think or pretend the Bible says; it's what the Bible really says that counts, and to rightly discern that one needs to know well the voice of God.

You let me know when you conform to the Scriptures and then we might get into your other points.

... and save your rebukes about how arrogant I am. Deal with the issues, which all concern the truth of what God's Word actually teaches.

[–] jamescchandler-1 16 years ago

I have not seen this movie, but your comments intrigued me. I wonder how the first two sets of Christians handled their situations.

I have to admit there are far too many Christian marriages that end in divorce. We all know that is not what God wants. I suspect that many of them end because one or both of the couple in question are not following God at the time of divorce and are extremely selfish. There is no doubt, marriage is hard.

As far as Job is concerned, look what Job says after he has lost everything:

(Job 1:21) He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."

and look at what the Lord did for Job when the testing was over:

(Job 42:10) The LORD restored the fortunes of Job when he prayed for his friends, and the LORD increased all that Job had twofold.

I think that you may have missed the point of at least "Facing the Giants" which I personally did not believe was a health and wealth gospel, I think it was more of a "give God your best and win or lose, give God the glory."

I am extremely sorry about the way some of the others have responded to you and I hope and pray that if you are Christian that this is merely a crisis of faith and if not then I hope and pray that God will touch your heart.

I apologize for the long response.

Jim

[–] ctibi2001 14 years ago

Hi,

I do not wish to intensify emotions here, but with your permission, I would like to make a few remarks as I have also recently confronted some of the issues raised as well as the tumultuous feelings involved. If this helps anyone, I'll be very happy.

I would like to add a couple of passages to the discussion about Job, as it is a rightly quoted story on suffering. We often downplay all ideas of the story and don't realize that there is much much more in it, than we see on the surface. And we do tend to see many things only on the surface here... After all, the Book of Job is chapterwise as long as cca. 2/3 of Paul's epistles... and being a book on suffering, it is rather important that we consider each word carefully.

In reference to Job 1:21 I would like to ask one complex question, because what Job says deeply bothered me (and probably others as well): who is the one doing the actual giving and who is the one doing the actual taking? And basically this is what we end up fighting about often... depending on the answer, you get both a different God as well as a different devil...think about it! Prosperity/health/blessings vs. reality based teachings...

A few passages I find relevant for the story and which are often left out (or were in my experience):

"In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly." (Job 1:22) - "...In all this did not Job sin with his lips." (Job 2:10) - It is not my intention to show what Job did or did not do, but these verses clearly point to where he DID NOT commit sin... which leaves the other side open for grabs...

"For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came." (Job 3:25-26) - This is one passage that showed me that we often really don't know who Job is (I did not know, nobody ever pointed this one out for me and whether you like it or not, he SAYS it = BELIEVES it). This could very well be the devout Christian neighbour you or I have. It could happen to us, if we are not careful. This is not about judging or pointing fingers, it's about individual lives and what we see or choose to see and what we fail to see. Fear and faith can not coexist... and the enemy is out there like a roaring lion, even if he is defeated...

This last one was like a cold shower to me: "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee." (Job 42:5) Coupled with the first 6 verses of this chapter, it's an astoniching information we receive. Contrast this with Job's description in the first passages of the book. I, for one, had the IMPRESSION he was a strong believer and righteous and everything and now I find out, he did not REALLY know God...

A few things to think about, while not even touching upon the discussions/speeches in the story...
TC

[–] chikid68-1 16 years ago

It seems ironic to me that you are trying to use the book of Job as a reference that God does not bless people like that because if you had read the entire book you would know that before God allowed the devil control over Job's well being he had been blessed both health wise and financially and God allowed the devil to throw bad thing at him to rove that Job's faith was indeed solid.
I can personally attest that God can and does provide for his followers maybe the movies examples were a touch extreme but however they are indeed real.
It all depends on the faith of the person if they have strong enough faith they can accomplish anything with Gods help.
It is truly sad that you are struggling with your own faith as that is the main reason that you have not been receiving the full blessings that God has to offer.

[–] DavidCrow 16 years ago

1. A family I know in South Carolina just lost a husband and father after a bicycle accident.

2. Another man I once knew died a few years ago from lung cancer. He was never a smoker. He battled it for several years before the cancer finally took his life. He spent the whole time preaching the Gospel and showing the love of God to others.

3. The numerous Christian marriages that end in divorce... and there's really know way that you can say that these work miracles in people's lives.

Where in the Bible does God say we would be spared from hard times and misery? It doesn't. He never promised us a smooth ride, but rather a safe landing.

[–] jbs777 16 years ago

You say to go read Job. What you fail to mention is at the end of Job, God gave him everything he had lost and MUCH MORE! Case in point.

[–] christeline1 14 years ago

I totally understand your message. I don't think it was right that you were associated with the "enemy". When we follow Christ we have to expect the cross. The cross is the bridge to heaven, and Christ said that if we want to follow Him, to expect pain and suffering. Fortunately for us, life here on earth is only a blip on the radar screen compared to the eternity of heavenly bliss and the beatific vision.

If you are struggling wtih your faith, you might want to read up on the saints. They are a great source of inspiration for their love of Christ and their spiritual battles against the devil. St. Padre Pio, a great and holy man, who suffered the stigmata, received visions of Jesus, had many charistmatic gifts.... struggled. Also, a book I'd like to recommend ... "The Diary of Sister Faustina." She was a polish nun, recently cannonized by the church. She was the bearer of the "Divine Mercy" message, also like Padre Pio, was gifted with many charisms, visions, etc. You will be profoundly changed after reading this book, I know I was.

Good luck on your faith journey, I will pray for you Stephen.

Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[–] ctibi2001 14 years ago

Hi Stephen,

Just a few remarks this time.

We indeed can not explain why certain things happen to certain people and it often seems unjust and unfair, but do not forget we live in a broken world and God will not come trampling across our decisions. And this broken world is the result of a decision, of a couple, not to listen to God. He allowed it, even though it was clear what it would bring about. Adam and Eve had their free will to disobey. His love is as great as to let us go our path, even if we stray away... and we can stray in both little and great things, but I do not believe God wants any harm for us (after reconciling with the world in the greatest sacrifice ever). It's our individual decision if we look at Jesus and what He accomplished on the cross (and look beyond the cross) or if we look at people, and situations and cases... We could just as well say then, that the fact that there are wars, illnesses and people keep dying (without knowing God) is His will, just because it happens and He doesn't do anything against it. And most of us would agree it's not. What makes it then along the same lines, plausible, applied to individual lives?

I found interesting how we often want to see reality and forget that God in His entirety defies "reality". He is everything that offsets reality: Jesus is alive!, he healed people when he walked on earth, raised people from the dead, walked on water, commanded the storm, etc. It's what who we look at that defines what we believe in, and sometimes we need to look patietnly for something to happen. :)

God bless you and hope you got through your tough period.
TC

[–] chris-278-208073 13 years ago

I think the movie is trying to show that God can change your life if you accept him as your Savior and Lord, and when you go through trials in life, He will be there for you.

God doesn't cause bad things to happen to you. We live in a fallen world, ruled by Satan. The devil seeks to destroy lives.

You mention a family losing a loved one, someone having a financial crisis or going through a divorce. Those are all examples of situations God can help us through, no matter the outcome.

My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer just before Christmas in 2010. We are now 13 months down the road, and because of our strong faith in God, we have been able to overcome the obstacles that cancer, chemotherapy, etc., has put in our paths.

Psalm 100:4 says “Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise; give thanks to him and praise his name.”

What this means to me personally is instruction on how we should approach the Lord.

First Thessalonians 5:18 says “give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.” That is a difficult thing to do. We are wired to worry or complain about things, but if we can truly put it in God’s hands, praise Him and be thankful for the positive things in our lives, then He will faithfully take control.

Isaiah 26:3-4 says “You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you. Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD himself, is the Rock eternal.”

My wife and I have not wavered in that faith, and we’ve had peace about our situation ever since.

Now that doesn’t mean it was easy, and I don’t mean to make it sound that way. Your plan isn’t necessarily His plan. It may not happen exactly the way you want it to or the way you are praying it, but God's plan is the best plan.

I know with 100% certainty that without God, I would have crumbled in the difficult moments. In those moments, I clung to a particular passage. Here are two very different, but equally powerful translations:

James 1:2-8
New International Version (NIV)

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,[a] whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

James 1:2-8
The Message (MSG)

2-4 Consider it a sheer gift, friends, when tests and challenges come at you from all sides. You know that under pressure, your faith-life is forced into the open and shows its true colors. So don't try to get out of anything prematurely. Let it do its work so you become mature and well-developed, not deficient in any way. 5-8 If you don't know what you're doing, pray to the Father. He loves to help. You'll get his help, and won't be condescended to when you ask for it. Ask boldly, believingly, without a second thought. People who "worry their prayers" are like wind-whipped waves. Don't think you're going to get anything from the Master that way, adrift at sea, keeping all your options open.

It is very tough to think of a dire situation as a gift or pure joy, but I don’t think God is asking us to be thankful that a bad thing has happened to us. I believe that the Lord wants us to be thankful for what he can do for us and in us during those times, if we will simply put our complete faith and trust in Him. That is the gift. That is the pure joy. God sharpens us during those times and provides his full armor.

So now, a year has passed, and God has been with us every step of the way. He blessed us with great doctors and surgeons. He blessed us with some incredible people in our lives that were a huge help.

It is an incredible feeling knowing that the Creator of the Universe is walking with you through the valley of the shadow of death. God is faithful, and I hope that in whatever difficulties come your way in life, that you will put all of your faith and trust in him, as difficult as that may be, and let His plan become your plan. No matter the outcome, God will see you through it.

[–] ABN-Para 13 years ago

So basically, you don't believe and you're long winded. You don't like these movies, yet you go and see them? Think about that for a minute....you keep doing something that you don't like doing. This speaks volumes.

[–] trance750 17 years ago

Yes, but Esau sold his birthright on his own free-will and knew what he would get for it. Jacob didn't hold his throat to a sword, and force him to sell it.

------------------------------------
Is that me talking, or just the beer talking, thru me?

[–] gsellars-1 15 years ago

It's gotta be the beer since no one "holds his throat to a sword."
;-)

[–] superchunk5000 15 years ago

"...the Devil watches Christian movies."

You can't be serious. You really believe in the devil? Really? I mean...really? Where does this evil horror, who God could stop with a snap of his finger, but chooses not to, live? The belief used to be that he lived underground, but now that we know the Earth is round, that seems less likely. If someone believes in dragons and mystical creatures we laugh at them. Somehow it's okay to believe in the devil.

Comments like that prove that religion serves to remove all logic and reason from a person's thought process. Don't question the faith, just get out your wallet.

In the story of JOB, God makes a bet with the devil concerning Job's allegiance. So we are toys for God to gamble on with his pal the devil? I'm not a loving, all-knowing, always-forgiving being; but I would never allow anyone to abuse my child just to prove that they will continue to love me. That's pretty sadistic.

I would pray for you, but I don't pray. I'm sure that if there was a God, he would appreciate a guy like me who doesn't bug him constantly with my wants and desires. I think I'll just let life unfold in the random, natural way; full of coincidences, human error and human intervention, just like it has always been.

[–] gsellars-1 15 years ago

You don't believe the Bible because to do so would interfere with your love of sin. Jesus said so in John 3:16-20.

It's very plain.

The reality of God and the truth of His Word is so overwhelmingly obvious that no one would deny it... unless they have an agenda to work iniquity that the Scriptures forbid. To salve your conscience, you pretend you don't believe in God.

That's why He said in Jeremiah, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Recognize yourself?

Everyone sins. God's commandments are supposed to build humility in us by our consciences provoking us to recognize how guilty we are of not obeying God as we should have. People like you shift into self-deception so that you can pretend that you can sin with impunity, because obviously, if there is no God, there is no judgment. The trouble is, the only relief from guilt that you have is so brief that good sense should tell you that self-deception won't pay in the long term.

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] gsellars-1 15 years ago

jmmang2, I wasn't calling names. I spent a great deal of time sincerely addressing a man's problems and the reasons for them.

That it's now two years later and he's not returned to address the situation positively or negatively suggests that the sober warning I gave him has proved to be true. He wasn't struggling with his faith; he was struggling with a continual barrage of evil and wicked thoughts that dishonored the truth of God's Word and he was having them because he had not MADE UP HIS MIND to believe God's Word over every single obstacle and doubt that confronted him.

People call that "struggling with their faith" but that's a misnomer. What they're really struggling with is unbelief and it's because they've not made up their minds to believe the Word of God. Even that's not enough unless one follows through with learning exactly what the Word of God says so that they may believe it instead of the lies that everything in life throws at us. In other words, the cure for the struggle is "abiding in the Word" and believing it and "turning off" the world.

Few people will pay that price. They're afraid they'll miss too much fun. The story of Esau and the food is an excellent type of this thing. It's not even a struggle with either person; dismissing the prize is done with a thought. "What good is it going to do if I'm dead?" or "I'll miss all the fun in life."

Great treasure is cast off so easily.

[–] krazed_nutz 14 years ago

Don't be so patronising. He has made valid points. You however are stuck-up with your own thoughts that you're not even willing to take in anybody elses opinions.

gsellars is proof the devil is writing on imdb walls.

"It's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it"

[–] johnmichael-2 17 years ago

Stephenmarshster--I AGREE WITH YOU 100%!!

You're saying the exact same things that I've been saying about "Facing the Giants"!! Please read my 1-star review of the movie here:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0805526/usercomments?filter=hate

as proof that I support you in what you're saying.

You're right: God is not predictable and He doesn't want to coddle and spoil us when we're good. He wants to make us strong Christians and wants us to be morally upright because it is the right thing to do, not because we're getting a reward for it.

To the other posters (gsellars-1, I'm looking specifically at you): how dare you say that Stephenmarshster is not a Christian or that he's a devil or that he's "missing the blessings of repentance." That is totally not true. He understands things far more than any of you do.

P.S. Actually, stevenlposns, you're fine because you seem to have your head screwed on straight and you were polite and intelligent, too. Thanks.

Alfonso-lover
We have got to live, no matter how many skies have fallen.

[–] gsellars-1 14 years ago

How can I answer a lying question?

1) Quote me where I say "Stephenmarshster is not a Christian."
2) Quote me where I say he's "a devil."

You can't.

Since in two examples you proven your lack of integrity by misrepresenting what I said (and everything is in print for you or anyone else to examine) I would expect you to misrepresent me again by only referencing my original remark regarding your lying charge that I called him "a devil." To be honest would require you to quote me also from my follow-up message which said, "Oh, and BTW, I didn't give you 'devil status.' I simply pointed out who you're hearing and know for certain that I am telling you that you hear the devil much more clearly than you hear God." That completely exposes your lying tongue in charging me with calling him "a devil."

When you open your mouth to criticize, the very least that is expected is that you tell the truth about that which you're addressing.

Now, beyond that, you show your agreement with satan in your remark, "You're right: God is not predictable..."

In life, there are many areas with which to deal and we start by walking blindly, but with the (hopefully) love and guidance of two parents who, also hopefully, will give us all the resources we need to succeed in life. Loving parents, as our loving God, teach us both the laws of life, where a given input will always result in the understood output and those vagaries, which are influenced by unforeseen or unknown factors. Our relationship with God is by faith and involves both aspects of life. By your emphasizing ONLY the vagaries and the inexplicable, which do occur, but not because of God, but because of our "walking blindly," you've dishonored and lied about God, who said, "For I am the LORD, I change not." Mal.3:6

In doing so, you show your lack of knowledge of the Bible and lack of an intimate relationship with the Lord. Knowing beforehand your own liabilities, and your lack of honesty in accurately representing facts, you should have had enough sense to hold your tongue. However, I know that when we're in ignorance, our own presumption often provokes us to speak where we're unqualified. This is where prudence and wisdom and discretion come into play. They speak to us and tell us to keep our peace. Perhaps you can learn from this situation to better deal with circumstances in the future. We're all learning, after all.

[–] cav523 17 years ago

YOU ARE A PESSAMISTIC CLOWN

[–] Naboo13 17 years ago

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
Albert Einstein

[–] dbrown172 15 years ago

Here's another from Einstein....

"Not everything that can be counted, counts. And not everything that counts, can be counted."

[–] trammie7 17 years ago

I'm a Christian, but I don't know much about theology. I ask my Father and His Son, and rely on the Spirit that He sent to dwell in me to show me how to pray, and who and what to pray for, to guide me in how to read His Word and understand it, and who to turn to when I have questions.

Is my life perfect? No. Do I run into problems, get stressed, feel overloaded? Many, many times. I also get blessed, knowing the more I keep my eyes on Him, the clearer my relationship becomes with Him. All the things I go through are for a purpose - to help me sacrifice my will for His will.

I loved the movie and thought it was mainly directed at believers. The point, to me, wasn't what God was giving that was important. It was what we are willing to give to Him. None of those wonderful things started to happen until the main character had given himself totally over to the Lord - had stepped out in faith and leaned on Him completely. Nothing happened until the man sacrificed ALL his wishes and dreams, then waited upon the Lord to do His will, and to praise Him, regardless of the outcome. I think this verse covers it best:

Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

By being truly humble, being obedient to His Word, and giving Him the glory, it kept them focused on God, not themselves. The riches everyone received in both movies were not the monetary or momentary ones (all those things pass away). The 'treasure' was the deeper, fulfilling joy of coming to know and love Jesus more and more - of learning to rely on Him and knowing without a doubt that He will NEVER fail us.

[–] sinceimetjc 17 years ago

I haven't seen any of the movies, but after seeing the writers on the 700 Club, today, I had to come onto IMDB to check the movies out. This post caught my attention.

Just wanted to say, that everything does not end up "perfect," just b/c you may praise God. Maybe they do in these movies, but it's not like that real life. Bad things still happen, but that's b/c our world is still under the control of Satan. Our bodies are not perfect, b/c of our sinful nature, so they are going to die. Everyone had to die, some sooner than others, but we all have a time that was appointed by God. But even when things don't go *beep* dory," we must still continue to praise God, and trust that He is with us. He leads us through dark situations, if we lean on Him. And if we trush Him, in the end, things do become perfect, b/c we'll be in heaven.

By the sounds of it, these movies are only showing one aspect of Christianity. It's true that when Israel would be following after God, that they'd always win their battles. So I would think that it wouldn't be impossible for a football team to win every game, b/c they're praising God. Not impossible, but does it always happen? No.

Hopefully the movies don't give people the impression that if you Praise God, that everything will go the way they want it to go. B/c God's way is not always the way we want it to be. But his way is best. For example, if the movie would have shown the football team lose a game or two, it should show that the team still praises God, b/c He's teaching them humility. Unfortunately, alot of times, when things don't seem to be going happily, people end up losing faith in God.

Just wanted to add, about the marriage and divorce comment. The statistics for Christian divorces just goes by how many people claim to be Christian (isn't it something like 80%?). How many believe that some 80% of our country are practicing Christians? Most of the people represented in the divorce statistic are not. If both a husband and wife are practicing Christianity, than they should know that the Bible teaches that we should love God first, and then family second. Most divorces are caused when one or both parties begin to neglect the marriage in some way shape or form. I honestly don't know of any marriages that ended where both the husband and wife were true, ptracticing Christians.

Okay, that's just my mediocre response. it's 2:30 in the morning while I'm typing, right now, so forgive me if there are any typos, or if I don't make any sense.

Just wanted to add one more thing. My favorite verse, which I find encouraging almost always:

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight. Proverbs 3:5-6

"The hideousness of that foot will haunt my dreams forever."

[–] annieoakley312 16 years ago

I can't believe some the responses to the original poster! I'm apalled that someone, Christian or not, could come and confess an issue, a struggle, a concern, or anything of that nature, and have someone calling themselves a Christian attack him for it. It breaks my heart because it's reactions like this that earn Christians the pious, hypocritcal, condemming reputation we have in this world. As Christians, we already have enough fighting against, and yet we consistently make it harder for ourselves by becoming our own worst enemy.

To anybody out there looking for what Christianity is all about, run away from this place fast, please. Don't look at these people as representations of the Christian life.

Stephenmarshter, I'm sorry you're struggling. You're absolutely right when you say that life isn't always good for Christians, even when their faith is strong. I pray God sustains you through these difficult times, and I pray that you do eventually receive the blessings and rewards that God often does give His children. And I pray that you are able to see the blessings that can come from your struggles, too - remember that God does not give us more than we can handle, and He always has a purpose. It sounds trite - of that, I'm well aware - but triteness doesn't make it less true. I also hope you find someone more uplifting - and certainly someone more Biblically-based - than the people you found here. In the meantime, stop watching these movies if they bother you. I agree that they can give false hope, but you laughing at their faith and beliefs is no better than the people here laughing at yours.

[–] mike-3206 16 years ago

You can like or dislike these movies, it does not really matter. I do not think any of these movies are for the unsaved on the surface.

The main jist I have seen in the first two movies is a probably backsliden man not being able to handle the trials of one's life.

Both movies show a repentant man confessing and coming to Jesus with this confession (even possibly an unsaved man) but I think the former to be true, and as a result, lives a life that glorifies God, which we, as Christians are mandated to do, and should want to do (...whatever you do, do everything to the glory of God (1Cor 10:31b)) I think you find this if you look at them more deeply.

We see confession of sin.
We see repentance.
We see glorifying God.
We see a man asking God to lead through His Word.
We see the power of prayer.

Go does not come and magically solve your problems when you get right with Him, and if you believe that, you have more serious Bible study to do, but God does and will give you the strength to get through your trials and will never give you more of a burden than you can bear (There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (1Cor 10:13))

For unsaved people, they will require a true saved Christian to watch and discuss the movie with, who can use the Bible and show the way to salvation through faith.

Do these movies give a true representation of salvation? No, they do not. I have never seen a movie or anything else that will, short of the Bible. This is the reason why I believe that these are more suitable to the believer, than not.

[–] Stephenmarshster 16 years ago

So it's been awhile since I had looked at this little forum because I had forgotten about it for several months.

To gsellars: I really can't believe you could be such an elitist douche bag. You are one of the most prominent causes of unbelief in this world, especially in America. You are the epitome of spiritual arrogance and American health/wealth Christianity. I do apologize for being so arrogant about the movie, saying things like laughing at it and what not. I don't regret laughing at it because I still believe the messages of these movies are awful for unbelievers. What they should have done is portrayed the football team losing in the championship and the car dealer actually going bankrupt and having to start life over with his family depending on him, but still having complete faith -- that actually would have been pretty awesome. Then I would have actually believed these films to be good witnessing tools.

To the others who defended me: You guys are pretty awesome. I really appreciated reading your words of encouragement. Judging from your words here, I believe, you have probably witnessed to people in your lives just through your actions, and not even by your words.

I'm glad I inspired some people here and made some people angry. Gsellars, I bet you are the type of person who gets *really* angry at every *little* comment from the media, movies, tv, comedians, etc, that pokes *fun* at *Christians*. I hope you are not married, because you are probably the type who makes your wife stay at home and cook and clean, and then you come home and expect a nice dinner to made every evening, if not, you get frustrated with her. She probably has a college degree but can't use it because of your spiritual manipulation and dominance. If you are single, that makes total sense. I really don't mind if the people who defended me get upset about what I just said. I just *feel* like *saying* it. I hope you *reevaluate* your 'spirituality' and give up your arrogance and 'hypocrisy'.

My rambling is over. I love you guys.

[–] gsellars-1 15 years ago

"I can't believe some the responses to the original poster! I'm apalled (sic) that someone, Christian or not, could come and confess an issue, a struggle, a concern, or anything of that nature, and have someone calling themselves a Christian attack him for it. It breaks my heart..."

You might consider taking a reading comprehension course. If you'll re-read the post to which you're referring, there was NO confession of an issue, NO struggle shared, and NO concern mentioned, nor did I attack him for any of those things. I addressed his helping the devil's agenda, which is accusing the brethren, which, again, if you'll re-read his post, is what he did. If you can't see that, then you have a serious inability to recognize how the devil uses peoples' mouths to deceive.

Again, if you'll re-read his post, it should be plain that he was the one on the attack, mocking the movie, its author, and all who helped make the movie, and in the process, mocking the idea that God blesses those who trust and praise Him and by extension, all who enjoyed the movies, not just Flywheel, but all the movies made by Sherwood. This is not my bias or my perception; he SAID these things. He made his points clear. YOU perverted his clear words and agenda from a damning mockery of the movie to a poor down-trodden struggling believer trying to get help and being stomped on by a self-righteous, merciless, holier than thou Christian hypocrite. The error is yours, it's huge and that's why I recommend a reading comprehension course. One as verbal as you shouldn't be so clueless.

It wasn't until his follow-up note that he said, "I made it clear that I am struggling with my faith."

I'll be charitable. He's being disingenuous. He presented a harangue against everyone involved with all the Sherwood movies and mocks the precious encouragement to faith that is presented, and in the middle of it casually mentions that "I would say I fall under category B" which by his definition is someone "struggling *with* Christianity because of trials in their life." Notice that he didn't say "in," but "with." The difference is day and night. "In" means he's committed to the Lord; "with" means he's unsure/uncommitted. This is unbelief.

If you're contentious, which you are, then you're arguing with the clear distinction that I put with those words. "I'm struggling in my Christianity" vs. "I'm struggling with Christianity." But it's clear enough to anyone who *wants* to understand. Everyone understands commitment -- in tough times you won't endure the tests without it.

Do you not recall the two passages in Hebrews that say, "Without faith it is *impossible* to please God" and "He who comes to God *must* believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him"? Are you so deceived that you do not understand that his mockery and contempt for these precious things polarizes him against the tender-heartedness which is necessary to cooperate with those two scriptures and that by taking the stance he's taking he is cultivating more and worse trials? I'm sure you are (deceived) because if you understood the truth I just told you, you would never have attacked me. You would have seen this guy is digging his own grave with his mouth and attitude. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. This guy is in the dark because he's on the outside [in unbelief] mocking, instead of inside (in humility crying out for wisdom, understanding and grace). Jonah 2:8

You don't have the Scriptural understanding to recognize that his description of where he is, is a perverted explanation of the second and third types of ground Jesus referenced in the parable of the sower.

Let me say it straightforwardly. You can either believe Jesus or you can believe this guy. You heard this guy; now hear Jesus. Jesus described this situation in Matthew 13:20-22. Do you so identify with stony places and thorns that holding fast to the Word is foreign, as it is to this guy? Am I being unmerciful? This guy didn't ask for mercy. Mercy is given to those who ask for mercy. Did he show the people of Sherwood mercy? Neither did he ask for help. Neither did he ask for prayer. He didn't ask for anything. No. Re-read his letter. It wasn't the letter of one crying for help in the battle. It was the smug, pretentious, "I know better" disdain of unbelief ridiculing those who tell stories of God's grace and mercy shown to those who humble themselves before Him whom the Scriptures tell us to fear.

That passage in Matthew tells why people "struggle with Christianity," which is a skewed perspective, or if you prefer, deceptive words for unbelief. It's because they don't give their heart, time and attention to the Word of God, but are sidetracked by "cares of this life and the desire for other things." This *chokes* the Word (from accomplishing its work in their life) and, not having root in themselves, they don't bear fruit to maturity. EVERYBODY gets tried. Jesus said plainly that the man whose house doesn't fall is the one who DID what Jesus said to do. The one caught up in the struggle (on his way to collapse) is the one who was too distracted with everything (thus keeping the Word from doing its work in his heart) and when the trials come, because *they don't know how to handle them," i.e., the relevant and pertinent Scriptures *are not* hidden in their hearts, thus they "don't know" what to do and they get swept away by the wind, the rains and the floods. They, of course, have many and varied explanations for their unbelief, but, if you paid any attention to the fourth type of ground, then you saw that the key to success was nurturing the seed of the Word of God *until* maturity in a good heart. But don't miss the fact that it is the work of the Word of God to make the changes in our hearts that we need -- but we're the gatekeepers of our hearts. If the Word doesn't do the work in our hearts, the parable of the sower tells us why. Also, remember when His disciples asked Him to explain the parable, He said, "You don't understand this parable? Then how will you understand all the parables?" That's a clue. This is the foundational parable to *get*.

EVERY single person who criticized me simply has no working understanding of what I just explained in those last two paragraphs.

It should be clear: Devastating trials (just as tough for everyone that pass the tests as for those who fail them) are the result of thorns, thistles, stones, obstacles, rootlessness, which all mean the Word didn't produce in the heart of the one *claiming* to believe. At the end of the story of the wise and foolish men, Jesus said very plainly, "If you know these things, you are blessed *if you do them*." This isn't rocket science; it's just obedience.

It takes much meditation in the Word of God to be able to retain it and treasure it *in the midst of hard trials* (that we all go through) and the one who "loses" his faith simply didn't give his heart adequately to our heavenly treasure, which is Jesus -- the Word of God. Telling someone the truth of this isn't mean and ungracious; it's just the opposite. The same devil who torments is the same devil who makes the truth teller "the bad guy" for telling the truth.

Let me say again what this guy's comments made clear. Not his brokenness and gratitude for the Word of God and comfort of the Holy Ghost in the midst of trial, but his contempt, not only for a Christian movie that has blessed many thousands of believers, but "every" movie made by Sherwood. Pay attention. I'm not making this up. He said it plainly. In English. "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Matt. 12:34, Luke 6:45. "Let every fact be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses. Matt. 16:16

Did you miss his remark at the first of his second letter, "I was really hoping to stir something up"? Are you thick, slow, dense and stupid? Those aren't the words of someone learning to hold God's Word dear to his heart in humility through the trials of life, looking for encouragement or help or support; they're the words of an antagonist.

Your perception of his clear message if completely void while your swallowing of his subterfuge is pedantic and ludicrous. Astute, you're not.

A number of you attacked me with judgment and harshness, and for what? For being judgmental and harsh. I'm sure you miss both the irony and the hypocrisy. However, if you'll read Romans 2 slowly and carefully (and maybe four or five times), you might get the clear message and understand from whence we get the expression "the pot calling the kettle black." Your attack of me condemns you... according to the Word of God.

Condemning and judging me for what you consider condemning and judging another is, by definition, hypocrisy.

What I did was obey Prov. 26:5.

I've had many months to consider, reflect and evaluate my response. If I had it to do over again, I'd do the same thing again, notwithstanding the hypocritical, poorly considered, and misguided outrage against me. If I were to change anything, I might simply go into a longer explanation as I have here. After all, I did indeed challenge the man to repent. He couldn't see his need to do so and was confused by my suggestion. Hard-hearted people never see their need to repent. "Behold the proud. His soul is not upright within him." Hab.2:4

The reality is, though, that the mockers and blasphemers aren't persuaded by the wisdom from above, regardless of how sound it is nor how clear and detailed the explanation. They're naysayers, held captive by the devil to do his will. ...and the mob that hoots and hollers (mocks and ridicules) is never led of God.

What I just gave you is better than a college education.

[–] weberwein 16 years ago

You make a very good point, but one I think the movie-makers would agree with: God is not a genii or a cosmic butler who rushes to fulfill our desires if we pray enough. That is not Christianity. (Of course, neither is "I don't care if I spoiled it for anyone," so you might want to check your heart out on that one.)

This movie is a Christian parable, and as such has its meaning below the surface of the story. The purpose of fiction is to tell a story such that certain things are seen or appreciated. The story here is that a man turned from his wicked ways at great personal cost, and his heart was filled with joy. He gave up the world, denied himself, and gained eternity. To make that clear, the film used a "happily ever after" flourish. With more time and money, perhaps they could have convinced the viewer of his changed heart with more "invisible" things. But as in IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE, this film made the point with friends and family gathering around, and people responding to his repentant heart with joy.

It's a parable, not theology. I see no evidence at all of "prosperity gospel" in this, or any of the Kendrick's film. Different forms of literature require different approaches - we don't look at Genesis as a science book, but as a profound view of the nature of God, of Man, and our relationship. Watch the film again as a parable of the joy of a lost man being found.

By the way, your looking forward to "laugh and criticize" seems at odds with 2 Timothy 2:23, don't you think?

[–] dzbiegiel 16 years ago

I agree with you... it's a parable not theology... why are you all so angry. Jesus still desturbs a lot these days... Theology is simple someone said " if you have problems pray and if your problems are too big, pray more...'

I know some of you would laugh but as everyone I have to face ( faith?) issues with life but I have seen so many prayers that come from the heart answered.. yes even in my own life...

So Glory to God...

[–] gsellars-1 15 years ago

I really appreciate your second paragraph.

Indeed, Jesus never criticized anyone for believing for "too much" but He plainly showed His disdain for unbelief. He acted like the Almighty God was on the scene and people could have whatever they could believe for and marveled at their unbelief.

I'm continually appalled at the "Christian" apologists who seem to come out of the woodwork to "help God" by "explaining" to everyone what God won't do and why He won't do it and how our job is just to struggle to believe ... but believe what? Nothing more than God is in heaven and He knows what He's doing and stand firm and hang on because you can't do anything about it.

That wasn't the message Jesus preached and His works didn't verify that stinking emaciated pitiful pile of unbelief falsely called faith.

When the blind men walked up to Jesus, He said, "Do you believe I am able to do this?"

Which of these apologists EVER say, "Do you believe Jesus will do for you what you want?" I've never heard it from ONE of them! They'll do back flips and make every effort to persuade people that it's foolish and presumptuous and wrong and bad and dumb and blah blah blah to believe for the supernatural.

What Bible are they reading? It's the same Bible. The problem is that they read it not with hearts of faith but through doctrinal filters that relegate the supernatural to the past and the future but never today.

The Bible says, "From such turn away." 2Tim 3:5.

When they read that verse, they don't even see "the power" meaning what it meant when Jesus used the term. They filter it to apply to ONLY character development. Ridiculous but true.

Mark 11:23-24 is nothing but a "nice religious verse." Not one of these guys believe it, though they'll boast that they believe the Bible "from cover to cover. They lie through their teeth.

There's dozens more just like that, that their filters just keep them from seeing what they really *say*. Not "mean" as if subject to interpretation, but "say" as plainly as the nose on your face. But unbelief has so many excuses to not stand firm... and all the reasoning power of the devil to justify unbelief. It would be funny if it wasn't such a sad shame.

Andrew Wommack says it this way. "Most people don't let the Bible interfere with their theology." You can download his materials for free from www.awmi.net

That statement is absolutely true. Most people would rather believe their favorite preacher than believe the Bible.

[–] eslehto-1 16 years ago

Why are we fighting over this? It's Sad to actually believe this is great way to bring the gospel to a person who needs a seed of hope and faith; This is way too much for response, when I saw the movie I was struggling in faith, hope, and love, these movies have basic message of God's love in them. They are made to show us this love. God is love? Flywheel shows the Hope in God to help when things happen; Facing the Gaints were made for Faith; and the newest one named Fireproof touch on God's love, the true love and the struggle of divorce and what happens when things change in life. God brings his love through the inside out, the change happens and mircles are real, so I don't know why were are strife on the subject. God Love All of You!!! God Bless.

[–] eslehto-1 16 years ago

After seeing all three of these movies I believe that they are produced by Christians for Christians and non-Christians. They offer hope,faith,and love. After hearing the producers and hearing their commentaries on the three Sherwood movies, Flywheel,Facing the Giants and Fireproof I can say that I laughed and cried and was spiritually touched by each of them. I cannot see the faces of those that post and they cannot see me so I cannot judge them because I don't know what they are really thinking. Now from what I have read so far it seems to me that many Christians are doing what the non-Christians and the devil wants from us. Polarization of one opinion or other. Do we really honor our Lord by trying to defend our beliefs. We all share beliefs of the same Lord.Just remember "we only know in part and prophesy in part but when that which is perfect is come then that which is in part will be done away"