FMA vs. Brotherhood rant - Hagane no renkinjutsushi (2004) Discussion

[–] SilentDues 12 years ago

Totally. The original series was just so much more focused on the flaws of characters, their deeper personal interactions, I'd go so far as to say it was a more realistic 'darker' series than Brotherhood's various cliched 'shonen anime' aspects. I also love how the last few episodes and movie tie into our own reality's 20th century history, the parallel world twist is one of my favorites of any story, seeing that turn up kept Edward and his father's side-plot in 'our Earth' compelling and fascinating to watch while the fantasy stuff was still going on in their world. A very good point about characters like Hughes, Rose, and Scar, all whom I feel much more for in this original anime, in addition to the Homunculi.

"Just tell the minister, I'm gonna be a few minutes late". *Cue John Williams' Superman theme*

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[–] Alchemistlover 12 years ago

thanks! and i also like Edward and Alphonse in this series. Edward to me was darker and much more well done in the 2003 series. Al...i can see why some people like him better in Brotherhood, he acted more like a 14 year old boy and did stuff for himself but i don't know i feel like i connected to him more in this series. What do you think about Roy and Riza? so far there the only two characters in Brotherhood that i at least think are done well. Also i don't consider this one shonen really, i consider it more of a drama with fantasy elements.

"Human kind can not gain anything without first giving something in return- Alphonse Elric

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[–] SilentDues 12 years ago

What do you think about Roy and Riza? so far there the only two characters in Brotherhood that i at least think are done well.

I loved the added complexities to Roy in the original. I could see so much more clearly why a man like Mustang was his best friend, the human-ness of his dark past as a soldier, his gradual arc with coming to terms with killing Winry's parents (I prefer this angle over Scar, who had enough guilt for 20 lifetimes as it was). As for his relationship with Riza, gotta say I like the 'less is more' close to their relationship of the original. Though Roy was left at a crummy place at the start of the Shamballa movie, I love the last scenes of him and Riza in ep 51, in addition to the final moment between them in Shamballa where she welcomes him back.

"Just tell the minister, I'm gonna be a few minutes late". *Cue John Williams' Superman theme*

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[–] Alchemistlover 12 years ago

Yeah i agree Roy killing Winry's parents and that speech to her made him very well developed. And what did you mean by "I could see why a man like Mustang was his best friend"? are you talking about Hughes?

"Human kind can not gain anything without first giving something in return- Alphonse Elric

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[–] SilentDues 12 years ago

Ah sorry, brain-fart-typo, indeed Hughes. So much more meat was added to Hughes in the original anime, it didn't feel like he was just some random soldier buddy of Roy's like in the manga and Brotherhood. They were best friends. Music and certain dub dialogue from the original also ranks as my favorite incarnation of the tragic funeral scene, much like the final dialogue exchange between Toguro and Genkai in the dub of Yuyu Hakusho, sometimes just a very subtle tweak is enough to draw even heavier tears from me.

"Just tell the minister, I'm gonna be a few minutes late". *Cue John Williams' Superman theme*

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[–] Alchemistlover 12 years ago

Hughes death and funeral is one of my personal favorite dramatic scenes form the original series. The music, dialogue ( mostly from Elicia) and the way the second ending played into the end credits was chilling. And yes, i love the full metal dub, it's my favorite dub of all time i think. Oh and sorry but you Yu Yu Hakusho reference was completed lost on me because i have not seen that anime. Oh and another thing i actually was wondering: why do people say this version had so many plot holes? to me it didn't, at least not enough to ruin the story.

"Human kind can not gain anything without first giving something in return- Alphonse Elric

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[–] SilentDues 12 years ago

Oh and sorry but you Yu Yu Hakusho reference was completed lost on me because i have not seen that anime

Ah apologies, really, you haven't seen Yuyu Hakusho? It's one of my favorite anime, though it's much more of the shonen genre and about fighting demons, it's got some similar elements to original Fullmetal in not being afraid of dark storylines while still giving us a couple characters and some moments to make us laugh out of our seats. Also if you're a fan of the Fullmetal dub, I'm sure you'd get a joy out of Yuyu's, same casting studio and all. I strongly suggest trying the first season, eps 1-21 on there offer a very solid first arc and after finishing that, you can decide if ya' wanna continue.

It's a long series compared to both Fullmetal Alchemist stories, whereas those go between 51 and 64 eps, Yuyu Hakusho goes a much bigger 112 eps made up of roughly four/five separate arcs, along with two stand-alone movies and an OVA. The series is out on DVD in four season sets, plus the first movie can be bought on the same release as the OVA-thing while the second movie is available from a different studio. So yeah, if you're able to and got the spare time/cash, I re-emphasize strongly suggest trying the first season.

In fact, here's episode 1! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1nF9_fMIk8

Should you decide to watch and continue it, here's a custom episode list of mine that chronologically places where the movies and OVA can be watched:

Arc 1 -- The Spirit Detective (21 eps):
"Surprised To Be Dead"
"Koenma Appears"
"Kuwabara: A Promise Between Men"
"Requirements for Lovers"
"Yusuke's Back"
"Three Monsters"
"Gouki and Kurama"
"The Three Eyes of Hiei"
"The Search Begins"
"Kuwabara's Spirit Sword"
"Hard Fights for Yusuke"
"Rando Rises. Kuwabara Falls"
"Yusuke vs. Rando: 99 Attacks"
"The Beasts of Maze Castle"
"Genbo, the Stone Beast"
"Byakko, the White Tiger"
"Byakko's Lair"
"Seiryu, the Blue Dragon"
"Suzaku, Leader of the Beasts"
"Seven Ways to Die"
"Yusuke's Sacrifice"

"Yuyu Hakusho the Movie: The Golden Seal"

Arc 2 -- The Dark Tournament (23 eps):
"Lamenting Beauty"
"The Toguro Brothers Gang"
"Deadly Triad"
"Kuwabara's Fight of Love"
"Toguro Returns"
"The Dark Tournament Begins"
"First Fight"
"Flowers of Blood"
"Dragon of the Darkness Flame"
"Stumbling Warrior"
"Knife Edge Death-Match"
"A Day in Waiting"
"Percentage of Victory"
"Glimpse Beneath the Mask"
"Ambition Destroyed: A Trial of Light"
"Master of Disguise"
"Kurama's Blood"
"Crushing Revenge"
"Jin, the Wind Master"
"Reverse Decisions"
"A Matter of Love and Death"
"The Masked Fighter Revealed"
"Yusuke's Final Test"

Arc 3 -- The Toguro Resolution (22 eps):
"Hiei Battles On"
"Many Faces, Many Forms"
"Legendary Bandit: Yoko Kurama"
"The Cape of No Return"
"Genkai's Strength"
"Suzuka's Challenge"
"Arch-Rivals"
"The Death of Genkai"
"Overcoming Grief"
"The Beginning of the End"
"The Beast Within"
"Yoko's Magic"
"Beneath Bui's Armor"
"Wielder of the Dragon"
"The Shadow of Elder Toguro"
"Sakyo's Proposal"
"Yusuke vs. Toguro"
"Toguro's Full Power"
"Yusuke's Despair"
"Toguro's Desire"
"Out With A Bang"
"Toguro's Wish"

"Yuyu Hakusho the Movie: Poltergeist Report"

Arc 4 -- The Sensui Conflict (26 eps):
"Return to Living World"
"Setting the Trap"
"The Power of Taboo"
"Genkai's Ruse"
"The Tunnel"
"The Reader"
"The Doctor's Disease"
"Sleep, Doctor, Sleep"
"Caught in the Rain"
"Kuwabara: Awakening"
"Sensui's Fall"
"Divide and Conquer"
"The Human Race"
"Moving Target"
"Let the Games Begin"
"If You Could Play Forever"
"Game Over"
"Kurama's Anger, Gourmet's Quest"
"Spirit Detective Showdown"
"The Difference Maker"
"Power Between the Teeth"
"The True Face of Sensui"
"Death of a Spirit Detective"
"Attempting Revenge"
"Waking the Lost"
"The Proof"

Arc 5 -- The True Destiny (20 eps):
"Sensui's End"
"Topside"
"Yusuke's Destiny"
"Three Strangers, Three Kings"
"Departing Living World"
"Return to Demon World"
"Haunted By The Past"
"The Secret of the Jagan"
"Reunion of the Bandits"
"Torn Between Identities"
"Inheritance"
"Every Demon For Himself"
"The Preliminaries"
"The Battle of Father and Son"
"The Demon World Tournament Begins"
"Farewell, Kurama"
"Love and War"
"A Reason to Fight"
"Closure"
"To the Future"

Eizou Hakusho Epilogue:
"Opening & Ending Encyclopedia"

"Just tell the minister, I'm gonna be a few minutes late". *Cue John Williams' Superman theme*

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[–] angmc43 12 years ago

Getting back to discussion...

If there is one definite achievement of the 2003 Anime1, it was the development of Maes Hughes. The Manga/Bro did some development, but those were flashback stories or one-shots, while Anime1 displayed everything needed before...y'know.
I remember when BROTHERHOOD was coming out, one manga fan was hopeful to its strict adherence to the manga. This person posted an example: No Hughes at the train hi-jacking. I was like, "What's SO wrong about the Hughes inclusion?" It's a good introduction, displaying his duality of goofy-family man/bad arse soldier. It also gave him some action scenes.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who liked the 'Roy-killed-Rockbells' plotpoint. In terms of the two Roys, there seems to be a lot of double-standard criticism. That they complain about the actions of one version of Roy, forgetting that their beloved Roy is guilty of similar transgressions. For instance, some fans can't forgive Anime1Roy for his Ishbal sins (killing Winry's parents). Oh-kay, so in their POV, Manga/BRORoy's Ishvalan sins are forgiven and forgotten?

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[–] sugarplum27 12 years ago

Sorry to jump in here, but I feel the same way! The 2003 series, the characters just felt more human! One thing I can't stand about Brotherhood is when you get to I think episode 49/50 or somewhere in there it starts a stretch of episodes where we don't see Ed or Al, or any of the main characters for more than a few seconds! I hate that! If I wanted to watch a show about random military members getting shot I wouldn't have invested myself in the core group!

And I can play hide and seek with my fears
And live my days instead of counting my years

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[–] Alchemistlover 12 years ago

Exactly Roy killed a lot of people! Just because he didn't kill two more people that happened to be the main protagonists bets friends parents does not make him any less guilty. Also why is it Ishbal in the 2003 series and Ishval in Brotherhood? trivial i know but still it always bothered me.

"Human kind can not gain anything without first giving something in return- Alphonse Elric

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[–] angmc43 12 years ago

Different translations. Lior/Reole have the same situation.

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[–] grilloz 11 years ago

I just don't see YU YU being like FMA at all, and im a huge YU YU fan, although after the first dark tourney the show wasn't as good. Overall great show, Poltergeist Report movie is great too. I just dont see how its like FMA at all.

The world's smartest man poses no more threat to me than does its smartest termite.

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[–] super-staff 12 years ago

I completely agree, AlchemistLover. FMA (2003) is one of my favorite anime of all time. I read the manga and enjoyed it for what it was (didn't like the ending, felt like it tried to wrap everything up in a nice bow too much) but Brotherhood was very obnoxious because it was overloaded with jokes even in the most serious of moments. The manga and FMA (2003) had gags, yes, but they also paced it well so that certain emotionally heavy scenes were taken seriously. In Brotherhood, you get more 'Ed turns chibi and get mad lolololol' crap randomly. Ugh.

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[–] grilloz 11 years ago

Most all of that was filler in the original this is true to the manga. Brotherhoods production and darkness far surpasses regular FMA, I cant even watch it the same was after seeing Brotherhood. its the real story the way it should be told. Dont get me wrong regular FMA is great because its FMA but to me Brotherhood is on another level, much more dark. all those ''character flaws '' your alluding to , a lot of that was added in on there own. And you judge Brotherhood before even finishing it? thats Crazy considering how great the ending is.

The world's smartest man poses no more threat to me than does its smartest termite.

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[–] angmc43 11 years ago

Brotherhoods...darkness far surpasses regular FMA

Sorry, don't see it that way.

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[–] grilloz 11 years ago

Thats fine but its fact, that that stuff is filler, which means not true to the story. some filler in anime is good, but for me knowing the real story i cant appreciate all the made up character crap in the first FMA. As far as which is darker is clearly opinion based. Also the animation is much better in brotherhood, which for me is a plus.

The world's smartest man poses no more threat to me than does its smartest termite.

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[–] angmc43 11 years ago

Filler means side stories that have little to do with the main story. Yes some of the early Anime1 episodes were like that (at least four episodes), but once the Brothers meet the fake Elric bros (whose knowledge would prove very beneficial to the climax), the remainder of the series avoided such stuff. It eventually takes a different path from Arakawa's manga story, but its a solid story nevertheless, hardly the 'made-up crap' you see it.

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] serkan_savas 11 years ago

You're just being narrow-minded. that's fact. simply because something is canon or something is not does not mean it's better or worse, in fact, it has nothing to do with eachother at all. This "filler" you name it, btw, which makes no sense because when the original series was made there was no finished story, the manga wasn't even finished until 7 years after the original tv show, so it wasn't filling anything, it was creating it's own alternative storyline. "filler" is being abused by people like you to be dismissive and just pile it on some "irrelevant, worse, or not good" heap. "made up character crap" . it's a story of fiction in both versions, all of them are "made up character crap". personally i find it very hard to believe anyone would find the 2nd series darker. but that's my opinion. the 2nd series is cookie cutter like one piece with a final villain so stereotypical in his final forms it could've been dragonball or one piece.

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[–] serkan_savas 11 years ago

You're just being narrow-minded. that's fact. simply because something is canon or something is not does not mean it's better or worse, in fact, it has nothing to do with eachother at all. This "filler" you name it, btw, which makes no sense because when the original series was made there was no finished story, the manga wasn't even finished until 7 years after the original tv show, so it wasn't filling anything, it was creating it's own alternative storyline. "filler" is being abused by people like you to be dismissive and just pile it on some "irrelevant, worse, or not good" heap. "made up character crap" . it's a story of fiction in both versions, all of them are "made up character crap". personally i find it very hard to believe anyone would find the 2nd series darker. but that's my opinion. the 2nd series is cookie cutter like one piece with a final villain so stereotypical in his final forms it could've been dragonball or one piece.

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[–] pointdexter22 11 years ago

I'm also working my way threw brotherhood now and I find it a lot less compelling its almost dull in comparison.

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[–] Unicorn_Blade 11 years ago

Where are you right now? I also did not like the beginning, but one it hit the North with Olivier Armstrong and the political plot kicked in, I started loving it!

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[–] sharebear42019 11 years ago

I like hughes better in brotherhood, how he went out fighting.. Also I like how brotherhood added characters like the freeze alchemist and general armstrong. Also the end fight with the god like father was a better ending

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[–] angmc43 11 years ago

I like hughes better in brotherhood, how he went out fighting.

I don't quite understand that sentence. Are you referring to 'went out fighting...in Ishval'? (Whereas Anime1Hughes took a desk job and probably stayed on the homefront) Or are you referring to the present day and...that event? (Because I think Anime1Hughes also gave his all, the train, Lust, Envy-Ross) Personally, I always felt Anime1 did Hughes better, giving him a longer and firmer presence in the series without a post-life flashback or OVA like in the manga and BRO.

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[–] janlappalainen 11 years ago

Totally agree, the original is much better

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Melon_Smasher 11 years ago

Haven't seen Brotherhood yet, just about to start it.

Having said that, the ending to this anime (the movie ending, I mean), retroactively ruined the series for me. I already know the ending to Brotherhood, so despite the actual quality of the shows, I think I'll end up like Brotherhood more regardless.

I do agree with you though, this anime was fantastic, it's such a *beep* shame about the ending though.

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