It felt like he wanted to take care of Ashley by himself, and I thought it was a bit selfish of him, because he knew how much Madeleine meant to her. But George was still great though when he listened to her.
He was trying to show Madeleine how she had the opportunity to go see Ashley and passed it up to do her work. She could have been there for when Ashley would need her but chose not to be. Madeleine may have never been able to predict what happened, but that doesn't negate the fact that even had the baby been born perfectly healthy, Ashley would have loved to have her there at such a life-altering moment.
As the audience, we aren't lead to believe that Madeleine ever told George that Peg demanded she stay home while the rest of the family goes to the hospital. That had a great deal to do with Madeleine's statement about it not being her place to be there, yet we never see her tell George what happened. She definitely put her own needs and desires above Ashley's, but would she have been so quick to do so had her relationship with the family overall not been so strained? Highly doubtful.
Hey that's a great explanation, Lbelle108.
But don't you think that George was still a bit selfish in doing that? I mean I think Madeleine would obviously wish she had been there for Ashley, and George knows that Ashley would've loved to have Madeleine there by her side. They didn't even say goodbye, and Madeleine told George she wanted to be there, but he just said no.
With this situation in this movie, it's so hard if not impossible to say. So much goes unsaid and is completely contradictory that we never have a full picture of how the characters are feeling-just like in life. In terms of whether George was selfish, I do think he was a bit. He knew full well how much Madeleine meant to her and how happy it would have made Ashley to see her. But in the end it was Madeleine's decision to go to work or go to the hospital. She chose work, and going back on that would mean George leaving Ashley to go get her. By that point, he had to choose between Ashley and Madeleine-and he chose Ashley.
shareYeah that's true, you can't understand all the resons for their actions.
I didn't think about that, that he would have to leave Ashley to go get Madeleine. Though there were other ways for Madeleine to get to the hospital, supposing she would not arrive too late. But George still made his message clear that he thought it was not necessary for her to be there, or that he did not want her there.
But there was still the next day, and she could've gone to the hospital to say goodbye. Maybe it was just all the frustrations of the different things that happened that made Madeleine not want to bother George about going to the hospital to say goodbye. But who knows. That plus other things.
The whole family trip to the hospital was strange. Everyone goes (except Madeline). It could be (and usually is) hours before a baby is born. Why George couldn't take Madeline to the artist and then they both go to the hospital, I don't know. It was only half an hour away. Instead, he leaves her with the artist who is decidedly strange but probably harmless (we hope) and goes to see his sister-in-law whom he hasn't seen in three years. He was wonderful with her, I'll admit. (Someone in that family should have insisted that Johnny stay with his wife but they don't seem to know what to do about Johnny.)
George didn't even invite his own family to his wedding but he desperately wants to get to the hospital. Madeline and George didn't plan their trip around her pregnancy -- it was the artist that drew them there. I think George forgot that and was trying to make up for three years' absence.
I've had two children and I can safely say that my brothers-in-law were, thankfully, absent during the labour.
Yeah, Golden Boy George was definitely punishing his wife, and thereby hurting Ashley. But there ya go - his wife will find out all his faults eventually.
shareA lot of script writers leave things out intentionally, thinking it makes the movie more profound. It doesn't. It is not a good movie, if basic questions remain unanswered and that makes the movie distracting.
We never get any clue why Johnny hates George. I assume it is because George left town. Oh horrors. He left town, woe is me.
We never get any back story on Ashley. Where in heck are her parents? Obviously they met in class because Johnny says she kept "looking at him", so I guess that is why he had sex with her and accidentally got her pg.
So Johnny is in school, but Ashley quit?
The family seems at odds with each other, but that could have been because George and Mad came to town and upset the balance of everything. Johnny may not have wanted a baby or marriage but he might also have been nicer if George had not been there to see what has happened to Johnny.
Johnny said he wanted to go to 12th grade in DC. So I assume all his plans to get out like George did were messed up because HE messed up his life. No one to blame but himself, but he tries to blame "her."
I think the movie left a lot out that could have been explained. Audiences don't really care for the mystery unless it is supposed to be mysterious.
Back in the olden days of film you would not find everything spelled out, but also writers didn't try to get famous for bad scripts.
artistatrest wrote:
A lot of script writers leave things out intentionally, thinking it makes the movie more profound. It doesn't. It is not a good movie, if basic questions remain unanswered and that makes the movie distracting.We are told every thing that we need to know, but, it is true, not everything that we might want to know. Details get left out of movies to keep the story moving along, not to make them seem profound.
We never get any clue why Johnny hates George. I assume it is because George left town. Oh horrors. He left town, woe is me.It's perfectly obvious why Johnny hates George. He grew up with his mother constantly comparing him with with his perfect older brother. George is special, and there was no way that he could match his brother. This situation usually leads to difficult relationships in a family.
So Johnny is in school, but Ashley quit?Ashley tells us that Johnny did not graduate from high school. He is supposed to read the book for his GED. It seems that Ashley did graduate.
The family seems at odds with each other, but that could have been because George and Mad came to town and upset the balance of everything.Johnny is upset because financial difficulties forced him and Ashley to move back with his mother. That is aggravated by having the brother that he was always unfavorably compared to come home. And he is ambivalent about the responsibilities of being a father.
Johnny said he wanted to go to 12th grade in DC.No. He wanted to go on the senior class trip to Washington, but he missed out on that when he dropped out of school.For easy markup in Firefox & Opera, see http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/42255 share
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I agree that George was punishing Madeleine, though perhaps not consciously. Regardless of what made Madeleine decide it was not her place to be there, he had made it clear that he believed it was, and that she should have been there for Ashley, just as he has always been there for her. Without saying it, he was acknowledging and critiquing her for choosing David Wark over Ashley. They have many things to work out, and this is just the beginning of it.
Was he selfish? I would have said that he wasn't, but thinking about it now, I think he was, maybe more than what Madeleine did. I don't think it's a question of whether Madeleine could have known what would have happened (that doesn't negate or amplify the selfishness of her choice). Rather, I think it's the fact that what Madeleine did is in the past, but George's choice now has the potential to change the future. By shutting off the chance to make things better, he was not only selfish, but perhaps even foolish.
There is so much to resolve in this film, and I had entered it thinking, things like the conflict between the brothers would work out. But, this isn't a traditional Hollywood narrative, and what we've seen is only a snapshot of various lives intersecting. I really would like to see more, but a sequel isn't likely and I doubt it's fitting for this kind of movie.
She's as nervous as a very small nun on a penguin shoot
I think George and I know this is not the consensus here...but I actually think George wanting to see Ashley alone was the only scene that reveals nothing about punishing Madeleine...but showed his love for Ashley which he would never be able to reveal openly in any way whatsoever.
When I watched this film the first thing I noticed was Ashley has a relationship to all the characters and we see her chatty and super friendly to the wife. We see her interaction with her husband and her father-in-law..but I noticed wow...nothing with her and George..And then the scene with him at the hospital confirmed it..I think he was in love with her. The stay at home brother may have been envious of his brother who left home and did well for himself sibling..but we never considered that perhaps George was envious of the one thing his brother had..which was Ashley. And that is why in her moment of pain when everyone left her alone at that hospital he wanted to be with her. He didn't want Madeleine there because he wanted to be there for her in a way that obviously her husband could not be there for her.
George got away because Ashley was just so much in love with Johnny. She felt comfort and love from George and she said as much and she was able to cry openly.
So by the end when he left he could easily go back to his other life away from his family and brother which would remind him of what he was and could not have.
Zachary Quinto is ridiculously sexy! Robert Downey Jr....is pure sex!
That's a very interesting reading, which I think I may agree with.
He didn't want Madeleine there because he wanted to be there for her in a way that obviously her husband could not be there for her.
I think by refusing Maddy the visit he was also demonstrating his choice of Maddy over his family by not allowing any attachments between Ashley and Maddy to get any deeper, AND protecting Ashley from more pain later on since Maddy is clearly not on the same wavelength. He clearly states as they are driving back to NY that he does not ever want to come back, again indicating his possible (more benevolent) motivation for separating Maddy & Ashley.
Revelation Below!!!!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority
However, if he were really in love with her, it would make even more sense that he would want to isolate his personal time with Ashley and forbid Madeleine from entering that space because he has compartmentalised this love away from his marriage and his other life.
Ashley: You always know what I need. You know, all I want in the whole world is for Johnny to love me like he did in high school.[You helped him didn't you? Aw, he was beautiful. He was perfect.George: Yeah, he was.]Edit: August 6 2012. The part of the quote above that I have placed inside brackets is inaccurate and misleading and should be disregarded. See the post by patpat07-1 below.So, this is not the first time that George has comforted Ashley. George says almost nothing. It is enough for him to just be there. They have been close for a long time. But I don't think it was ever a romance.George, Madeleine, and Ashley are a trio as they leave the church supper. George has his left arm around Madeleine's shoulders, and Ashley is almost dragging them forward by George's right hand. She is like a kid sister with her big brother, and I think that is what the relationship is.Ashley has no family outside of the one she has married into. All she seems to have had was a half-brother who is now gone.George does not seem to have had much of a family either. His father has retired from the family. His mother is critical and possessive. His brother has always resented him. (I can't blame him. He grew up with their mother always favoring George who has no faults and can light up a room.)I think Ashley is the part of his family the George really cares about. I imagine that he established a connection with her, and became her protector, in high school.I think it very unlikely that it was ever a sexual relationship. George is Ashley's adored and admired big brother who always knows what she needs.Madeleine sees that George is not close to his family. Why should she give up signing Wark, which is very important to her, to go to the hospital where George's mother does not want her and her presence will not make any difference. She does not know that George does care about Ashley.When Ashley is being taken to the hospital, Peg's ordering Madeleine to not go with them is brutal. When the neighbor waves to Madeleine, I think she is saying, "I know just how you feel. That's the way she is." George does not know that this happened.I think the connection between George and Ashley is very real and very private. And it goes back a long way to when they were both isolated and alone. Of course they hide the connection from Johnny. How do you think he would react to knowing that his brother, who has always overshadowed him, and his wife are emotionally close? Perhaps George is leery of interacting with his brother and Ashley together more than is necessary for fear that his brother might pick something up. Maybe that is why he tends to retreat from the family.In the time of anguish after the baby's death, George can comfort Ashley. His wife would simply be a foreign element however well-meaning and sincere.I think George grew up hiding a lot from his mother and from the community. He always knew that he was different from the people around him. He is used to hiding, and he still hides a lot. There is no reason for him to try to explain his relationship to Ashley to his wife. Such relationships are hard to explain, and easy to misinterpret. (Notice how easy it was for people to misinterpret Madeleine's attempt to help Johnny by assuming sex when there wasn't any.) Any explanation might leave some lingering questions even if only in Madeleine's unconscious mind.Ashley wants to know everything about Madeleine not because she has had a romantic relationship with George, but because she wants to get to know, and be friends with, her big brother's wife.For easy markup see http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/42255 share
Several people have noticed that George and Ashley have an intimate relationship, and some of them assume that it was/is a romantic (sexual) relationship. I don't agree. It is possible, but I think the probability is very low.
from Phil Morrison interview:
I think the word “dysfunctional” has no meaning. I swear to God I don’t see this family as non-functioning—I think it’s about how they manage to function in spite of the ways they’re balanced against each other.
indiewire.com/article/sighs_and_whispers_chatting_with_phil_morrison_a bout_junebug/
I actually thought the reason George didn't want Madelaine there was because he wanted to keep his family life and current life separate. Perhaps his understated anger at Madelaine for bailing on being at the hospital with Ashley was a kind of projection of his own guilt and anger at himself for having escaped his family earlier. Mild survivor guilt, if you will.
I think the idea that he was in pining-away love with Ashley is VERY interesting! Most certainly a possibility. But then again, maybe being the only one in his family to have gotten away, he wanted to help a similar spirit-- Ashley. Compadre. Little sister. <3
The more I see this movie, the more I think about!
scoochie9 wrote:At the end of the film, I think George has decided he is not going home again if he can avoid it. A connection between Madeleine and Ashley could complicate that.
I actually thought the reason George didn't want Madelaine there was because he wanted to keep his family life and current life separate.
...a kind of projection of his own guilt and anger at himself for having escaped his family earlier. Mild survivor guilt, if you will.That is a good point. George may well feel guilty that he has abandoned his family. I don't think he ever rebelled against the world of his childhood. He fit in while he was there, but he knew he was different, and when he could, he just left.
I think the idea that he was in pining-away love with Ashley is VERY interesting! Most certainly a possibility.It would certainly be a distinct possibility in a typical television program or Hollywood film. It would fit right into a melodrama, but I am quite sure that Junebug is not a melodrama. See the quote from Phil Morrison above.
[deleted]
I just watched this movie and I believe the line is actually:
"You held him didn't you? Aw, he was beautiful. He was perfect. Held, not helped. She was referring to the baby. There follows a comment about "blue baby"
patpat07-1 will wrote:
I just watched this movie and I believe the line is actually:"You held him didn't you? Aw, he was beautiful. He was perfect. Held, not helped. She was referring to the baby. There follows a comment about "blue baby"I watched the clip on YouTube, and you are right. I really blew that one. Sorry.The key part of the scene for me is still the "You always know what I need" line implying that there were other occasions on which George has comforted her.For easy markup in Firefox & Opera, see http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/42255 share
Wow warmtrooper, I never thought about it like that! If you look at it that way it actually makes a lot of sense.
[blue][/blue]
I figured it was George's baby and that George still had unresolved feelings for Ashley -- he thought going back to NY would make those feelings go away, but they didn't, bc in the long run it will make him and Madeline's marriage worst almost like a lie. I loved the chem b/w Ashley/George, he was so gentle w/her after losing "their baby"...I felt bad for Johnny as well.
shareSorry warmtrooper. But that just can't be true: George hasn't been home recently enough to get Ashley pregnant. In the beginning of the film, when George & Madeleine arrive and Johnny refuses to get up to say hello, Peg proclaims that George hasn't been home in three years. Ashley doesn't seem like the type to be making trips to Chicago in order to see her brother in law, so the math doesn't add up for an encounter between him and Ashley 9 months previous to the time of the movie.
While we're at it, let's talk about George for a second: As obnoxious as Johnny is, I think that George might be worse. He SAYS that family "means something," but he seems to essentially abstain from it. He hasn't been home in three years, he didn't invite his family to his wedding, and in fact, he wouldn't have even been in North Carolina if it weren't for the artist that Madeleine was interested in. Even when he IS home, he disappears, he naps, he more or less abdicates while Madeleine is the one left to interact with these strangers. When Ashley goes into labor, he acts as though being with family is the most important thing, but the day he and Madeleine leave he says "I'm so glad to be getting out of there."
But that still leaves the question of why he wouldn't let Madeleine visit the hospital. George seems to want to keep his cosmopolitan life in Chicago as separate as possible from his Southern upbringing in North Carolina. There are aspects of his character that he has hidden from his sophisticated wife (he's an ex-smoker, he either has or once had a spiritual life) and prohibiting her from seeing Ashley may have been a way to further keep them separated. Even though I think he really does love Madeleine, he seems to want to protect this tender moment with Ashley from an outsider: his wife.
Junebug is a strange little movie that manages to charm us in the most eyebrow-raising ways.