MovieChat Forums > 300 (2007) Discussion > Fighting is very unrealistic

Fighting is very unrealistic


The Spartans fought in an organized formation, which is what made them so hard to defeat, not one-to-one combat (which makes a soldier easy to kill). I don't like movies that use historical, factual battles and turn them into pure fantasy.

reply

The movie showed both, it showed the organized formation multiple times.

They added some one-to-one combat moments for Leonidas to showcase his physical and military prowess.

reply

Actually, no. It is a common misconception that was even considered to be a historical fact until recently.

Combat in strict formation wasn't how Greeks fought, despite the popularity of that view, not until much later in history with Philip II of Macedon (Alexander's father) and his reforms. Even at the time of Thermopylae battle, warriors fought in relatively close but irregular formation allowing for free movement, mingling with lighter troops etc.

reply

Yea it's not clear with any degree of certainty how they faught. We know they moved to an open formation after the betrayal, so this leads us to conclude they were tight before that, in a defensive shell. Who knows but I'd be happy to have gotten to see it go down.

reply

It certainly isn't. First of all we are talking about a period of several hundred years, so certain things that apply to 7th or 6th BC, don't necessarily (many usually don't) apply to 5th or 4th century BC.

Having said that, there are things we do know, and there are errors in earlier academia that are successfully identified.

Some of them are first and foremost a strict formation (phalanx) fighting and the defensive 'shell'. It is false notion.

Even though people tend to group themselves naturally, strict formation (today known as a phalanx even though the term was never a technical one during the period in question) was simply not how earlier Greeks (by which I mean Greece before Alexander the Great, including Persian wars) fought. We know Greeks, up to and including battles of Thermopylae, Plataea, Mykale and others against Persians, fought in somewhat fluid 'formations', allowing for a lot of movement, light troops mingling, fighting inside barracks, on hillsides, ships.

Hoplites equipped with shields, helmets and body armour fought as horsemen, seamen, raiders, ambushers and in pitched battles, and there is clear literary and artistic evidence for all of these. So hoplite was never a defensive warrior, no matter what later, Medieval 'logic of war' would imply.

Greeks, Spartans included, during the battle of Thermopylae, though having clear distinction between heavy troops and light troops (something that still wasn't the case in 7th c BC), still fought with them mingled together, with a lot of space for movement, engaging and disengaging at will. Herodotus' almost contemporary description of the battle clearly shows this. Fight would be denser in the middle, and more loose toward the end (as similar engagements today are, between hooligan gangs numbering several hundred people etc.), but there were no strict shield walls, well rehearsed maneuvers with block formation etc.

What is more, the only time very dense formation are mentioned, in Homer's epic - late 8th early 7th c BC, and Xenophon's 4th century work, men are in defensive position against numerically superior enemy who is surrounding them or fighting inside city walls. Even then there is no position in line/file man would have and keep. While the same density may occur in 'regular' battle, and probably did in Thermopylae, there is no evidence it was a part of a deliberate 'shield wall' formation. Just a dense group that could become less dense or completely open depending on the situation. The feign retreat maneuver Spartans did at Thermopylae shows exactly this kind of fluidity.

We can be sure of this because all literary descriptions of battles during this period describe events and actions that would be impossible in such strict, defensive formation (not to mention artistic representations that, even though numbering thousands never show 'shield wall formation').

Tightly knit shield walls we call phalanxes today appeared only after Philip II of Macedon (Alexander the Great's father), and it is explicitly stated in the sources that he 'made formations denser'. There would be no 'denser' if men fought in shield walls as early as 480 BC and Thermopylae.

reply

What was the deal with the phocian wall? Did Leonidas rebuild this up before the battle started? Was it alraady up from an earlier battle? "They" say Leonidas used it as a defensive blockage to protect his flank. And what the reasoning that the Greeks didn't use a phallanx as its been defined...it is because there's no mention of it anywhere or because there's mention of different styles other than that one? What a battle to watch

reply

What was the deal with the phocian wall? Did Leonidas rebuild this up before the battle started? Was it alraady up from an earlier battle? "They" say Leonidas used it as a defensive blockage to protect his flank.


Phocian wall was an old wall (in ruins) by the time Leonidas came with his army. It was one of the defenses Phocians built to shield themselves against invading armies (mostly Thessalians). But it is said that neighbouring Malians found a way around it, through the same(?) mountain pass Xerxes' army followed later, during the battle of Thermopylae. So, even though Greeks knew the weak points of their position, they decided to rebuild the wall and protect their camp (behind the wall, to the East) and/or retreat. As it happened on the last day.

And what the reasoning that the Greeks didn't use a phallanx as its been defined...it is because there's no mention of it anywhere or because there's mention of different styles other than that one?


Both, in fact.

The idea of Greeks using phalanx (which originally meant simply a body of men in Greek, nothing more specific) is a relatively new one. Early 20th century academia produced this idea which is a backward projection of later, Macedonian tactics onto a period with significantly less 'technical' details in sources. Up to 5th century BC sources were more concerned with narrative and drama. 'Phalanx theory' became popular in academia and wider audience because it fits with our notions of good, well trained armies having high level of organisation and discipline, and suppressed individualism. And while discipline is indeed important, maintaining precise formations is anachronistic for 480BC, and suppressing individualism absolutely incompatible with Greek ethos of the time.

Situation became bad for researchers after some influential scholars who particularly liked the idea of disciplined formation (because of certain political implications)started misusing vague evidence and interpreting them in a way that would seemingly reinforce the idea of super disciplined Greeks in neat shield wall formations 'marching as one' to meet chaotic easterners.

Original evidence, however, speak of no such formations. The battle of Thermopylae marks an end of an epoch called Archaic era in Greek history. And during that cca. 300 year era, during the rise of Greek civilisation from so called 'Dark Age', an aristocratic warrior called hoplite (armed with a large shield, bronze helmet, breastplate etc.) became the standard infantry man and a status symbol of an 'upper middle class' for lack of a better term. Some were full aristocrats, most were not farmers but farm owners. Spartans, for example, were among wealthiest on average. Wealthy usually = better trained, and they were happy to show off their valor, their skill and their wealth.

Greeks were competitive, and egalitarian ideology many impute to Spartans in particular through their 'phalanxes', didn't exactly exist at the time. Even Herodotus who is our best source for Thermopylae mentions the official recognition of best, second best, third best warrior as a known practice during the day. They fought for their state and certainly had a sense of patriotic duty, but maybe even more for their own renown and 'immortality' that came with battlefield glory. Not something you expect in a unit where everyone holds the same line and has their exact place in line.

Only later, decades after Thermopylae, with huge economical crisis following a political one, and Greeks abandoning heavy armour and personal symbols of wealth, armies becoming much more numerous and warriors less trained, less 'knight like', did formations become denser, more organised with clear separation between light and heavy troops. But it wasn't until Philip II of Macedon in 4th BC that proper phalanx in our modern sense of the word was introduced.

Earlier artistic evidence always show chaotic fighting, with archers, horsemen, even chariots in the thick of it. Very dynamic movement of soldiers, kneeling, jumping, evading, fighting multiple enemies, wrestling, showing off their individual skill etc. So we can conclude Greeks fought sometimes bunched up, sometimes more spread out, sometimes both in the same time along the line as it happens when any two crowds clash, but with enough space for all those actions to happen (300 movie excluded one of the most epic scenes from history which was fighting for Leonidas' body after he fell early on the last day - four times his body was dragged away by Medes/Persians and four times recovered by Greeks in that chaos).

Literary evidence agrees with artistic ones and also describe combat that is incompatible with neat formations, and is much more dynamic, fluid. The only time men bunch up or stand 'shield to shield' is when they are defending a position or are surrounded, or inside cities/camps (though we should assume it happened on other occasions, spontaneously, as it does with any crowds clashing). Not by default, not on command as a part of some trained maneuver. I might expect that warriors fought in denser crowds in Thermopylae, because of the terrain and the defensive position Greeks took, but even the densest crowd had to be fluid enough to allow for Spartan feign retreat maneuvers for example and especially all what happened on the last day of battle.

So, phalanx in modern sense is nowhere to be found in any of the evidence for a period before and well after Thermopylae battle, and what is more, it is incompatible with evidence we do have. It is a modern invention, and one of the ideas that needs to be abandoned since it makes us misinterpret many other aspects of Greek society.

reply

They fought for their state and certainly had a sense of patriotic duty, but maybe even more for their own renown and 'immortality' that came with battlefield glory. Not something you expect in a unit where everyone holds the same line and has their exact place in line.



Aristodamus, in a battle not long after that one, left his place in the formation and wildly attacked the Persians, showing his courage and regaining his name, but since he didn't follow the order of the attack, he wasn't made a legend. Would this point to some order ? since he didn't follow it.

What was the end result of Leonidas' body? I know he got crucified and the head chopped off, but was it buried on the battlefield, or did the Persians take it as a trophy? Then they say they brought the bones back 40 years later...from where..Persia or the battle field? lol just curious, you seem to know a lot about the greek and Persian wars. thanks

reply

You're welcome.

As for Aristodemus, you have to follow the original quote which is a bit different than you remember. It is only said he 'rushed out and left the battle column behind' (Hdt. 9.71) where 'battle column' is not a precise term but a loose translation of a Greek term 'taxis' used in the original text. Taxis , however, is a noun that can be interpreted in various ways, but it isn't a technical term. It can't be translated as 'formation' nor was Aristodemus' 'place' ever mentioned. Taxis was a non specific term used both for an entire army or its contingent of various size, a group even (term was mostly used in singular).

It implies cohesion indeed, but not necessarily order. Groups can be cohesive without having high level of organisation - men spaced exactly the same, places being designated or the whole thing rehearsed or trained. Greeks of the time lacked complex tactic and elaborate chain of command, and few officers mostly dealt with maintaining general cohesion, preventing rout, army stretching too far in pursuit and kamikaze attacks like the Aristodemus' one.

So in this case, Aristodemus is simply said to have rushed out in front of an entire army, or at least a Spartan part of it which is a body of several thousand men. But the quote says nothing about his previous position, his unit or how orderly was his line or army to begin with.

Leonidas question. Spartans succeeded in saving Leonidas' body during that struggle, initially, but the body eventually fell to Persians anyhow, since by the end of that day, Spartan last stand was overrun. His body was indeed decapitated and head impaled. What happened to his and the bodies of Greeks isn't explicitly stated, but it is safe to assume they were buried by locals or Greeks who came to the battlefield in following days. It would explain the retrieval of Leonidas' bones after 40 years. It was probably a political move during a big crisis in Spartan state, after a devastating earthquake and enormous loss of life, from which they never recovered.

reply

I had read that at some point in the 1920s or 30s some guy excovated the area around where the battle took place and found a large concentration of arrowheads near where it was rumored the last Spartans Got finished off. I wonder what else turned up ..I spose the bones of the men would be dust but maybe there's teeth or knives, etc. Too bad he didn't find leonidas' sword ...That'd be a finD.

reply

Fighting is very unrealistic


No sh!t, mate. It's almost as if this is a fantasy movie that uses historical events as a backdrop.

reply

It is. Both Frank Miller and Zach Snider state that the graphic novel and movie were not historically accurate.

reply