the most disgusting part that i found in the movie was the part where toby kissed bree & was ready to have sex (accidently) with his own father...the director played down this part (since it would have made the film too depressing) but my guess is that after such a thing (like desiring ur own father) toby was never goin to be the same again nor forgive bree...
what do u think?
While I didn't find that part of the movie "disgusting", I've found it
disturbing each time I watch the movie. It's disturbing because that scene
drives home just how vulnerable both Toby and Bree are.
Toby was abandoned or abused his whole life. He lived with the experience, from
the time he discovered his own mother dead until he met Bree, that people
expected sex from him in return for support (money) or affection. He had learned
to measure his own self-worth in terms of sex and he had been led to believe
that sex was absolutely the only thing of value he could give of himself. His
experience at Bree's parents house gave him a sort of subconscious insight into
and empathy with her. She'd actually opened to him and for the first time in his
adolescent life he'd experienced the unconditional love of a parent.
Unfortunately he didn't know that Bree was his parent and he responded in the
only giving way he could.
Bree was actually redeemed by Toby at this point. If she hadn't been confronted
with the necessity of telling him the true nature of their relationship, she'd
have gone through her surgery and emerged incomplete, still denying a part
of herself.
Toby didn't have sexual desire for his parent, he didn't even run from the room
in disgust, he ran because yet again his trust had been betrayed, he'd been
decieved.
The wonderful thing about the end of the movie is Tucker show's us two more
whole people. Both Bree and Toby have grown into their lives and are finally
whole enough to start real parent and adult child relationship.
I ride the tempest, tame the waves...I will not resign myself to the usual lot
of women
interesting.. i haven't considered the scene from this point of view..
thx..
That part was sad. Toby is so desperate for someone to love him and Bree is just as desperate to love herself.
shareI thought that scene proved he was confused, as opposed to just open-minded. He says "I'll marry you if you want" or something like that which suggested to me that he was still trying to get someone to love him, he was trying to please her too perhaps, not necessarily that he wanted what he claimed to want.
shareWhile the film had a dreadful screenplay, I thought this particular scene in question was completely exploitive and unnecessary. Yes, it was disgusting and disturbing and if Bree/Stanley had an IQ of 20 or higher, he/she could obviously see that the kid was about to kiss him/her and could have stopped the kiss from happening. I can't believe the director won "Best First Screenplay" at the Indie Spirit Awards for one of the worst screenplays I've ever witnessed. Felicity, on the other hand, was robbed of an Oscar.
And I'm not insensitive to the feelings of the characters; I get that they are both desperate for love but the director went WAY over the line with that scene. Completely exploitive.
custer58r, I disagree. I don't think that scene was unnecessary at all. In a situation like Toby's it seemed totally plausible for him to develop (confused) feelings toward Bree. While some mightn't act on it (unlike Toby), I think it's likely to cross their mind. I mean it crossed my mind at the start of their road trip. A troubled boy, lost his mother, abused by his step-father.. it only seems natural for him to feel mixed emotions like that toward the first person to show him genuine care.
shareif Bree/Stanley had an IQ of 20 or higher, he/she could obviously see that the kid was about to kiss him/her and could have stopped the kiss from happening
I disagree , Bree was Toby's father and she was aware of this , so she was petting her son's hair as a father , perhaps she forgat who she is for Toby at the moment , and Huffman's play as putting an end to that kiss and make him feel guilty for a while , was great.
I thought this particular scene in question was completely exploitive and unnecessary
I don't find it too exploitive (I mean I don't think it was a marketing trick)but it was a bit unnecessary I agree , for in every condition Toby would be mad at Bree , with or without a kiss.
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Excellent take on the scene. I just saw this movie for the first time yesterday. My mother recommended it to me. This was the scene that stood out to me the most in the entire film, not because of disgust but rather because my heart broke for Toby. I was shocked at the scene because it drove home just how starved Toby was for any sort of real love or affection. He'd had no one but a suicidal mother and sexually abusive stepfather and then he'd peddled his ass to survive. He may or may not have been gay. I'm not sure he knew for sure. He was probably gay, but sexual attraction to Bree wasn't the point of why he came on to her. He thought that's what he had to do to secure someone's affection and to keep this near stranger in his life because he didn't have anybody. He didn't know that the crazy couple were his grandparents.
Terrific, phenomenal performances.
Good point about him thinking that he had to give sex in return for comfort or love, and it is probably partly for this reason that he runs off, because he has difficulty with the realization that love or succor from a parent or authority figure is actually supposed to be given unconditionally.
shareBliss_s
I think your interpretation is insightful and true. To bad some people just don't get it and run and hide in their insulated little minds.
Rae
What a great way of looking at that scene. Congratz. I felt similiar but, i would/could never expres these feelings the way you did.
And again, that scene should not be called disgusting.
I read this almost ten years after you posted it (because I just saw the movie) and what you wrote is my exact sentiment. What a great movie. :)
"I am a Knight, and Cersei is a Queen,"
I didn't think it was depressing, or disgusting. Toby wasn't desiring his dad - Bree neither looked nor acted like his (or anyone's) dad. I thought it was a very poignant scene, very well done.
sharethere was a disgusting part but luckily bree had it removed and there was a happy ending
the true christian speaks: jec lives- 'giancarlo is an enormous turd '
Perhaps disgusting, but unrealistic. Toby questioned "Why did she bail him out?" and "Why was her mother being so nice to him?" It's hard to believe he wouldn't have figured it out by then. In an otherwise excellent script, this detail seems to be included to sensationalize the ending.
If Toby didn't come on to Bree, Bree would have never told him who she was. If a transexual bailed me out of jail I'd have a hard time believing it was my parent.
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I think he was confused.
shareI think he was clearly Bisexual, because he desired both men and women. Remember the guy they picked up? And the girl he hooked up with when Bree went to the toilet?
I think he was confused about life generally, but I don't think he was confused about being Bisexual.
Watching TV shows doesn't create psycho killers... CANCELLING TV shows creates psycho killers!share
Well I really don't think he enjoyed having sex with men for money. He looked really disturbed if I remember correctly when he was in the act. And he had trouble in the porn film.
With Bree he said that he was doing what he does best. I think he connected male-male sex with his identity. And it seemed clear to me that he confused sex with love.
it seemed clear to me that he confused sex with love
Watching TV shows doesn't create psycho killers... CANCELLING TV shows creates psycho killers!share
I just don't agree that he was attracted to men which is why it was made blatantly clear that he couldn't function in the porn movie. In real life there are other explanations, but in a film, why else would that be in the movie unless it meant something significant about his feelings toward men? I think the only reason he had sex with men was because he was confident he could please them and, as a result, make money that way. I think it was the only thing he knew how to do, I don't think that makes him bi.
shareI just don't agree that he was attracted to men which is why it was made blatantly clear that he couldn't function in the porn movie. In real life there are other explanations, but in a film, why else would that be in the movie unless it meant something significant about his feelings toward men?
I think the only reason he had sex with men was because he was confident he could please them and, as a result, make money that way. I think it was the only thing he knew how to do, I don't think that makes him bi.
Watching TV shows doesn't create psycho killers... CANCELLING TV shows creates psycho killers!share
I don't think the drugs were the reason. I said that in real life, different factors play a part, but this is a movie and the idea of him not being aroused because of the drugs he took is overanalyzing what I find to be a very simple point. Why put that scene in unless it suggests that he really doesn't enjoy what he's doing? That's the only reason to have that scene in a movie, otherwise it serves no purpose. We already know he's on drugs, why do we need to see the effect of the drugs on his sex life? We don't. Yes, it gave him a reason to track down Bree, but any number of things could have inspired him to do that. Why this course of events? And ultimately, it still proves what I was saying, that his dream went unrealized because he came to realize that it's not what he wanted, which only supports my claim.
And just because someone has sex with the opposite sex, that doesn't make them heterosexual. So I think the same can be applied to Toby, who has sex with both men and women. He doesn't have to be bi.
I think you're projecting a little here. :(
Why put that scene in unless it suggests that he really doesn't enjoy what he's doing? That's the only reason to have that scene in a movie, otherwise it serves no purpose.
And just because someone has sex with the opposite sex, that doesn't make them heterosexual.
So I think the same can be applied to Toby, who has sex with both men and women. He doesn't have to be bi.
Watching TV shows doesn't create psycho killers... CANCELLING TV shows creates psycho killers!
Hey Sapphire,
I know this post is old but I still feel the need to chime in here. I have no doubts in my mind that Toby is straight, but confused. Many children who are molested grow up to be sexually confused adults, which Toby certainly displayed, and also, to an extent, equate sex with affection or just a lifestyle. In any case, they tend to be sexually dysfunctional. Also, fun fact, a vast majority of young male prostitutes (who cater to men) are heterosexual. You do not need to be gay (or bisexual!) to have sex with someone who is the same sex as you.
If Toby was attracted to the man at the truck stop, I certainly missed it. I didn't miss the glazed, druged sheen and the distracted look the actor had in his eyes which hinted to me of shame. (Toby did say earlier that hustling was degrading so he wanted to quit.) Any attraction Toby had to the Peyote Shaman definitely looked to me like a kinship/friendship sort of thing. He didn't make any sexual advances on him.
Sorry, but to me it's important to understand the difference between being bisexual and having sex with a person of the same sex, especially in movies like this where sexual and gender identity are key. If you're curious, check out Mysterious Skin, Rent Boys (a case study not a porn book), or the last two seasons of Queer as Folk.
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i don't want to sound wrong, but it was kind of exciting for me. I was biting my pillow :]
Yes and toby didn't know that Bree was his father, so he wasn't desiring his father he was desiring Bree, the only person in his life who had given him some real love. But, i think someone has said that already :]
I think toby was maybe Bi? Obviously he already knew Bree was technically a man, but desired her as a woman, and was ready to have sex right then and there. He also was ready to spend his life with her after then operation. So if you desire someone as a girl & a guy, you've got to be bi haven't you?
But this was one of my favourite parts of the movie, just the way Bree shows him the Photo, and Toby says, "That's my Mum & Dad." Then how Bree says, "No, it's your Mum, & me." Then you can see Toby pause for awhile and everything clicks.
I also love it when Bree gets hit by Toby, not the fact she gets hit, but the fact Bree's mother is there straight away. Putting aside their differences the mother just rocks Bree. And i just love it.
:]
Frannie, 14.
"So if you desire someone as a girl & a guy, you've got to be bi haven't you?"
Hello Frannie,
Bree is not "a girl and a guy." Bree is psychologically a woman. She is not "technically a man." The other parts are an accident, like having a tumor between your legs. Besides, high doses of estrogen knock out male functioning, so Bree could not perform as a man if she tried.
You seem really sympathetic to Transgender issues, so I don't mean to be critical! I just want to clarify something that still confuses a lot of people.(and you're young, so don't worry!)
Bree is a woman BEFORE the operation. All that the surgery does is help her avoid embarassing situations like being seen in a bathing suit, locker rooms etc. Think of how many female friends you have whose genitals you have never seen. Yet you'll always accept them as women!
Thanks for reading!
Cynthia
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Awh no i wasn't saying that. I think. Even though Bree was taking hormones and things and felt that inside she was a woman; Bree is still technically male. If you know what i mean, she isn't completley woman yet and still not completeley male, but predominantly male. So what i was trying to say that Toby knew that Bree was still technically male but still desired her. If you get my gist. I accept the fact she is not completeley a man but more man than woman.
Ok i think i just sufficiently confused my self :]
I am sympathetic towards transsexuals because when i tell some of my friends - particularly male ones they just say, "eww. why would you want to see a movie with a guy dressed as a chick? that's just wrong!" And i know that transsexual people most probably have this feeling pressed upon them everyday. People always looking down on them, which is sad. Transsexuals are people too! Just whoever made them ( Be it god or whoever) got it wrong and they shouldn't be forced to live a lie.
I saw a transsexual woman in town once and although i did kind of look again, because you know you would :] but some boys were actually laughing. Laugh out loud laughter. I felt so sorry for her.
So yes,
DON'T BE MEAN TO TRANSSEXUALS! =D
Love makes the world go round :]]
Frannie :]
Unfortunately your attitude doesn't help much either in that it's kind of patronising. I know you mean well but the whole thing about "Don't be mean to transsexuals" and "I felt so sorry for her" is very much a case of pity and not so much support. At least, as a trans individual, I feel this way.
One might argue that she still isn't "predominantly" male. Yes, she had male genitalia at the time and would always have XY sex chromosomes genetically but ideally one IS female if one believes herself to be female. The same holds true for male, or people who identify as both or neither.
It IS complicated, but hopefully in the year-odd since you've posted this, you've achieved more clarity.
It's time to hold your loved ones
While the chains are loosed
And the world runs wild
The idea that Bree could perform as a man if she tried caught my attention. Obviously Toby did not understand this,because if he had, he would not try to perform oral sex on Bree.
share[deleted]
That was confusing and weird...I actually thought he was doing it deliberately, in order to get Bree to admit that she couldn't do it, because he was her son. He'd already mentioned his mother was from Phoenix, and asked what Bree had been called as a man (she changed the subject) so I thought he already knew and was just pushing Bree to admit it. But I was wrong LOL.
shareIt's really only disgusting, because we the audience, know that Toby and Bree are related. It maybe only adds more when Toby finds out that they are actually father and son. I certainly didn't find it disgusting in the sense that most probably would. Was it a little weird/gross? Sure, why not? But you have to remember that inside of the story, Toby didn't know any better.
Unofficial Site
www.freewebs.com/davidorth
Meg (2008)
I agree with one of the first posts, that Toby didn't really want Bree, but sex was the only "love" he had ever experienced. He was starting to really get to know Bree and love her as a mother figure, but he had never been loved by a family before, so he didn't know any other way to define his longing.
"I drank what?!?"
-Socrates
She asks him what he's doing and he says "What I'm good at." That says it all to me. He doesn't know what else to do.
shareI agree. I also agree with "LeonStyloroy" and "Bliss_S", very well described! :)
Watching TV shows doesn't create psycho killers... CANCELLING TV shows creates psycho killers!share
I found that scene to be incredibly sad. It almost made me cry. Toby's life of betrayal, abandonment, and self-distrust came to a head, while Bree's life of lies and ambivalence caught up to her. The yearning for love and the willingness to give was just heartwrenching on both of their parts and for totally different reasons. It was one of the most powerful scenes in the film where both of them really shined as actors.
shareIt was sad, for sure, as adrianldev said. But I have to admit I cringed when he sensually kissed his mom. Yeech.
shareThe scene wasn't about Toby desiring his father. It was about Toby giving the only thing he knew how. It was about him doing what had been expected of him his whole life. I'm not even sure that Toby really 'desired' Bree. He was just doing what 'came natural' (even though it isn't natural).
He had been an abused child, who had lost his mother, and didn't know his real father. Which, in retrospect, was probably a good thing. Not that Bree wouldn't have made a good dad, but just that it is VERY hard on children to deal with parents going through this. (I hope I don't get basted for that comment). In all of Toby's life, sex seemed to be the centre of it, so naturally, it was going to come into play here. As far as Toby knew by this point, Bree was just another person who had done something to help him, and it was time for him to pay his due.
I think the scene was great, in that it showed how vulnerable and lost both Bree and Toby were. It showed us that although they both had different paths to travel in life, each was able to understand the other in ways incomprehensible to others.