I listened to this book on tape a couple of years ago, and that's why I watched the movie when it showed up on cable this week. It seemed fairly close to what I remember, but I can't recall the drunk father playing such a large role. Am I forgetting something, or did the screenwriter play that up just to create more tension in the film? If you read it recently, please post!
shareIt's probably been about two years since I read the book, but I think the portrayal of him in the movie was fairly accurate to the book. Some things in the book were left out of the movie, such as his mental breakdown where he stayed in bed for a long time.
Also, two separate events were in the book were combined in the movie when it came to her falling and cutting up her hands. Once he pushed her down and the other time she really did lose her footing.
"You can't tell me nothin' if you ain't had an 8-track." -Sinbad
I haven't read the book, but I know that you can't film a memoir directly, you have to shape it into a film. It is inevitable that things are going to be distorted.
Although Terry Ryan (the author) is sadly no longer with us, things she said to me have stayed firmly in my mind.
Re her father... Terry said she had a dilemma. Had she made him too central to the story - then she would have undermined her mother's importance, and it was her mother that she wanted to concentrate on. But her father's bad behaviour was what brought out her mother's strengths and, as such, was an important part of the tale. But Terry may well have played him down a little. Evelyn was one of a kind, and The Prize Winner of Defiance, Ohio, was Terry's tribute to her. Her father wasn't a bad man, but a weak one. The book made this very clear to me. Unfortunately, anyone who sees the film without reading the book first, could so easily miss the point Terry Ryan wanted to make. Her anger towards her father as a child, shows clearly in the movie. As an adult, Terry told me she had forgiven the man who had caused her mother so much disappointment... like her Evelyn, she had that same inner strength to draw on when the going got tough!
Thanks for the interesting personal story. It's always nice to get an inside scoop.
shareIt is great to have some personal perspective!
I thought the film did a good job of showing Kelly as a weak man rather than an evil man--and I thought Harrelson did a good job of portraying the complexity of that character. The truth is, the film left you with a certain amount of sympathy for Kelly even though you could see all his weaknesses and his failures to support his family and be a good husband and father.
I'm glad to know that his daughter was able to forgive him when she was grown.
"I thought the film did a good job of showing Kelly as a weak man rather than an evil man--and I thought Harrelson did a good job of portraying the complexity of that character. The truth is, the film left you with a certain amount of sympathy for Kelly even though you could see all his weaknesses and his failures to support his family and be a good husband and father."
Well said WarMaid I agree...
And one thing I thought was great was that when they mentioned that he had secretly deposited his pension checks into an account and his wife didn't have to struggle another day in her life. Really very refreshingly ironic IMO.
I think that even though he was weak that the film wanted to emphasize how much he truly and immensely did love his wife even if he couldn't always show it.
I couldn't dislike Kelly, knowing his issue with losing his voice. It is interesting that he didn't disappear to a bar to do his drinking. No, he was there with his fifth in the kitchen facing a wall while actively listening to the radio in plain view of his family. There but not there, passive aggressive. There was little help for addictions like this just as women were not allowed credit and co-signing mortgages. Imagine what it was like for WWI, WWII and Korean War veterans with PTSD - and their wives and families. The '50's were the end of restrictive roles and rules and the start of helping the person.
"Two more swords and I'll be Queen of the Monkey People." Roseanne
My father was very much like the father here and we moved out of nyc in 60 to get my dad away from the readily available alcohol. When he quit drinking he became a different person and laid on the couch every night and weekends and we never spent time with him. He had 4 heart attacks and retired but he too stashed away money for my mom for when he was gone. I loved him but he lost the strong confidence he had when he lost his job and became a weak man, but a loving one.
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Kelly was more Evelyn's 11th child than her partner in life. He blatantly put his needs before his children's and acted out via temper tantrums and sabotage, like a baby, when Evelyn was paying attention to or trying to support their children. He almost seemed to resent/regret them, and I don't think it was all alcohol - the alcohol was just his coping method, which inevitably made things worse. He was a selfish child who couldn't move on once his dream was taken away. Every time I watch this movie, I can't even imagine how Evelyn could have been intimate with this man/child, but I guess those were the times and staying married was more important than true happiness, not to mention, divorce was almost unheard of for a woman back then.
I saw the movie one day & fell in love with it. It was just one of those random movies I had my TIVO record without thinking much about it. Bored one weekend my hubby & I cuddled up to watch it.
A WONDERFUL & AMAZING movie.
I'm in the middle of reading the book right now. Before I read the book I honestly admit the movie did make me really dislike him. He seemed much more abusive and hateful.
Yet, with the book it does go a little bit into why he is like this:
1. His mom from what I got from it was rather crazy. It talks about her burning down the house and another time she babysits for the Ryans kids one night. While she was there she decided to fix the sofa by tearing up the carpet and stuffing the carpet into the sofa. Or it may have been a rug. Plus the book didn't mention anything about his father that I remember. So he had no male figure in his life to model and learn how to be man.
2. Kelly - the father: Was raised more by his sister than a mother.
3. He falls into a depression in the book and is in the hospital for awhile due to it. Depression really wasn't talked about lot back then. You can see it in the movie though. He seems unsure about himself, worried about this wife leaving him when she visits the womans contest group & also his upset about the prizes.
4. In the book it talks about how he is teased and put down about the prizes. Back in the 50's & 60's men were to be the main provider for the family. He isn't doing a good job and this I am sure makes him feel like less of a man.
So to me it seems he has a mix of depression, low self esteem and yes a problem with alcohol. It is sad and I admire how his wife held things together. A wonderful and amazing woman.
I have not read the book, and my husband really wanted me to watch this movie. When he first saw it, he really admired the mother. (He now shares my view that men need...well, keep reading.)
But the truth is, I could no longer stand it after 25 minutes or so. There's a lot that hinges in life (when it comes to the big stuff) on the difference between being NICE and being SCARED. Unfortunately, I spent a lot of my life in fear, so I know this.
While I *know* there were fewer options then, I wish the mom had had more resources--not just in terms of therapists, lawyers, etc., but in terms of people to give her genuine wisdom and insight. Tiptoeing around this man is not helping him. What if she had made the decision to BUILD HIM UP rather than baby him? To include him in her writing endeavors, and say "Let's try to write a limerick for this commercial. What do you think about _______?" Perhaps if he had felt included, he could've then given her his full support while moving out of the way for her to use her strengths.
Of course, the pastor/ priest (?) (not sure of the religious affiliation) who came to see her was terribly unhelpful, verging on spiritually abusive. BUT rather than listen to his clearly nutty perception (that it is 100% the wife's responsibility to make her husband happy), what if she had sought help from others who'd gone through it? What if she had, again, built him up WHILE expressing higher expectations? "Babe, I know you're sad that you can't sing now. But I know you're bright and I know you have more in you than this. What other work would you like to try? How can we work together?"
To relieve someone of all expectations and responsibilities is the ultimate insult (ironically, the one being given to women in some subcultures now). It's what some people tell five year olds: "You can help by staying out of the way." It's deadly to men and to marriage. It's killing him softly. Women, DON'T DO THIS!
From the film the husband was an alcoholic and had severe self esteem issues. Now the people mention he had depression too. I tthink building him up would have worked, that he ultimately wanted his wife to wear the pants in the family, to dominate him and tell him what to do since he was unable to look after himself.
But you also need to take into account that in that time this was unthinkable, and also presented a bad example for the kids. A father even if non functioning was the head of the household and it was a wives job to provide for him a good home, not to criticize or shape.
Evelyn just was too good for her own good. She WAS too happy and although she provided and protected her family, her husband could never fully enjoy life again, after the loss of his voice. Still her example was sufficient to make her kids functional adults.
But I just can't help feel sorry for the husband throughout the entire film. (When he accuses her of being TOO happy, he is really crying out for her help. He was incapable of living up to his role as the man of the house and Evelyn was cruel to deny this) He really got the short end of the stick in life, not Evelyn. The only joy the husband could find was by regressing into an infant. Evelyn may have succeeded wildly as a mother, but as a wife or life partner, I would call her a failure.
You people are turning my stomach with your backwards, "blame-the-woman" prerogative. Back then, women were dearth of any resources , and there was no precedent in this era for "dominating your husband" (unthinkable!), healing his brokenness, etc. That you are blaming this woman for her husband's behavior is ignorant. What WAS available at that time was the beginnings of psychiatry, and since men had complete autonomy of their lives, he could have picked his sad alcoholic ass up off the kitchen floor and gone to get either psychiatric help himself, or gone to another nascent organization, Alcoholics Anonymous. At a certain point, you can't help or heal a sick person -- they can only take initiative and help themselves , and the most loving thing you can do is take your kids and go somewhere safe in the meantime or stay and manage the best way you can, which is what she did , and she was a SUCCESS. HE was the FAILURE.
Evelyn was trying to keep a buoyant attitude for the sake of her children growing up mentally healthy, which she accomplished. God, when people like you two get together and check off all the ways a good woman tries to preserve the sanity of herself and her kids , twisting all her best efforts into blame, you're worse than a couple of out-of-touch church ladies.
You would think that if he was such a creep she would have figured it out before 12 kids.
shareI was going to write something about the ignorance of that statement, but find I'm just too tired.....
"You can't tell me nothin' if you ain't had an 8-track." -Sinbad
Regarding the 12 kids, I had something of the same reaction. I am all for large families, and I don't think that your income has to be $xx,xxx or $xxx,xxx a year in order to have a number of children. But when the marriage has serious issues and a parent is an alcoholic, I think the more "present" one--in this case, the wife--should put the brakes on that UNLESS or UNTIL he gets help. Babies are fragile, easily injured, and generally not recommended in an unstable home. It seems she could have expressed concern to him in one of his calmer moments. And birth control (at least barrier methods and so forth) has been around a lot longer than the past 40-50 years or so.
BUT both parents always need to take responsibility. We can never lay it all on one person's shoulders. We tend to be harder on the ones trying so hard to get it together, while never holding the ones accountable who seem hopelessly scattered.
They were Catholic. Catholics don't believe in using contraceptive devices. The priest that told her his drinking was her fault had been drinking too. Do you remember the little boy saying Father What's-His-Name smelled like Daddy?
Regarding subase's post, where do I start? I don't like long messages, so I'll try to keep it short.
A father even if non functioning was the head of the household and it was a wives job to provide for him a good home, not to criticize or shape.How is she supposed to provide or even have a good home for him if he doesn't provide the means for her to do so? He drank too much of his paycheck, and they literally lived from day to day. She didn't criticize him.
Evelyn just was too good for her own good. She WAS too happy and although she provided and protected her family, her husband could never fully enjoy life again, after the loss of his voice.Too good and too happy? If it hadn't been for her, there was probably a very real possibility that her children would have been taken away from her. She had dreams too, but instead of hiding in a bottle, she did what her husband should have done; take care of her family - INCLUDING him.
When he accuses her of being TOO happy, he is really crying out for her help. He was incapable of living up to his role as the man of the house and Evelyn was cruel to deny thisWhat should she have done and how was she cruel? Should she have let her children be taken away so she could take care of the man who, as you said yourself, should have been taking care of her and his kids?
He really got the short end of the stick in life, not Evelyn. The only joy the husband could find was by regressing into an infant. Evelyn may have succeeded wildly as a mother, but as a wife or life partner, I would call her a failure.How did he get the short end of the stick? He had a job. No one forced him to spend the money he made on booze instead of providing for his family. How did she fail him as a wife? I'd really like to know how you've come to the conclusion that his problems were her fault.
Actually, a lot of men drank every night...either at the corner bar in the city or a cocktail waiting when they got home and another with dinner and another after. My friends had so many alcoholic fathers they out numbered the non drinkers. Drinking and smoking were just acceptable ways to relax after work and women took valium to cope. I was born in the early 50's and lived on both coasts.
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