MovieChat Forums > The Notorious Bettie Page (2006) Discussion > contradictory

contradictory

posted 18 years ago by grppaperboy
16 replies | jump to latest

I've only seen this movie the once and haven't been able to find it since (I like to watch a movie 3-4 times before making a real opinion but lack of availability is forcing my hand) but is it just me or did the movie seem to be a little contradictory on the stand-point of bondage itself? It came across, to me at least, like they were trying to say that Bettie's bondage modeling was all fun and innocent in spite of some people's views at the time, and the people taking the photos were okay, but the people actually into bondage are still weirdos. Even if that wasn't their intention, it's how it came across. From the cop at the beginning in the porn shop, to the fan talking to her at the party, to the dad describing what happened to his son at the trial, it was all very negatively portrayed. But Bettie was still okay because she was just just modeling it, not actually into it herself. Seems a little hypocritical to me.
I guess that's my own personal main disappointment with this movie. I guess I was expecting something more along the lines of "Kinsey" which made a stand on sexuality and specifically homosexuality being okay as well as telling Kinsey's life. Or at least having a bigger scope than just her personal life. Don't get me wrong, she went through some horrible things and her life since the movie has rather tragic as well. But I don't know, it just seemed like the movie needed more to it than just her life. Or at least, as others have said, more of her life than just that. It just really didn't grab a hold of me and pull me in and make me want to really know her story.
Anyway, that's my two cents on the deal.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] a-j-lucero 18 years ago

I'm not understanding what's so "hypocritical" about the movie. Did you miss the part where Bettie first met Paula? The part where she was putting panties on her? They had a disscusion on these "wierdos". Basically saying different strokes for different folks and who are they to judge. Bettie Page was a model, not some fetishist. She did what she had to do to make money. Irving Klaw and Paula Kramer were not "wierdos" either. They owned a book store then turned it into a place where you could buy pictures and what-not of your favorite actors. The whole pin-up thing for them started during WW2. Then they began to get requests from costumers. Maybe if the movie would've included this information (along with other things) you wouldn't have been so quick to put your two cents in.

[–] WVfilmfem 18 years ago

Yes, but the portrayal of BP as some wide-eyed innocent Southern gal from Nashville, methinks, is contradictory and misleading.

[–] MrGKB 18 years ago

Bettie may not have been "innocent" to some extent, but the portrayal of her in this film is accurate from all accounts I have read. There's nothing contradictory or misleading at all.

Religious types like Bettie quite often wear blinders in life that enable them to function in what others might deem a contradictory or hypocritical fashion.

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[–] a_chloris 17 years ago

Actually, I don't think that Bettie -- as depicted in the film -- *does* put on blinders. In the scene where the photographer confronts her about "what Jesus would think" of what she does for a living, she admits that the seeming contradiction has troubled her, but that she's thought it through and decided that her photos can't be so terrible if they make people happy, and aren't hurting anybody. She says that if God is displeased with her work, then she hopes he will let her know somehow. It is only when she overhears the testimony of the man whose son was killed (or committed suicide), possibly in relation to bondage influences, that she realises her work -- despite the fact that she herself imbued it with a kind of playful innocence -- can have harmful (if unintended) effects. That's why she decides to stop modelling: because it's as if she's received her message from God.

Possibly Bettie's strategies and justifications seem simplistic and naive, but they are at least consistent. Moreover, I think hers is as perfectly sensible an attempt to reconcile spiritual idealism with the practical realities of life as any that I've seen.

[–] triskela 18 years ago

If you've never seen Bettie's bondage pics or films it's probably hard to understand the points the movie is making in that regard. Bettie's demeanor in those films and situations is exactly as depicted in the film - wide-eyed and innocent. Ultimately, mere play-acting. I think she understood that based on her background and the culture at the time that these activities would be perceived as wrong and perverted, and I expect she wrestled with those issues. But her life had taken some wrong turns and she had to make money and support herself. And - no small thing - the camera loved her.

I never imagined Bettie as someone that was actually a fetishist or overtly into the BDSM scene. Never. Not that there is anything wrong with BDSM in my view. It just doesn't seem a very sincere activity with Bettie.

If I had to gauge her truest feelings about modeling from afar (as someone that never knew nor met Bettie in real life), I'd say that the Bunny Yeager segment captures her spirit best. Yeager's pics of Bettie are among the best of Bettie out there. And those Yeager pics are the best because Bettie's heart was truly into what she was doing - her love of and joy in her own body really shine through in those photos.

[–] jollyolly 18 years ago

It seems most people don't really get what you're saying for some reason.

Yes, it depicts the producers of the material itself out to be good natured, normal folks, whereas anybody who actually gets off on the stuff, even though good natured, are still mostly creeps and weirdos. It's a little off putting, really.

I, personally, don't see anything wrong with it, if nobody is being forced and it's all in good fun. It's actually quite arousing. I'm sure many very normal people feel the same way.

[–] artdirector-2 18 years ago

"But Bettie was still okay because she was just just modeling it, not actually into it herself. Seems a little hypocritical to me."

Because in her mind she was acting. George Clooney acted as a thief in Oceans 11. Glamourizing a heist. Doesn't make him a thief.

[–] dvdfreak66 18 years ago

Exactly she was acting. Even after she quit she never regretted what she did and she never thought it was wrong and that's when she became even more of a devout christian. I don't believe she thought her fans were doing anything wrong either, though in the film she seems a little scared of a a couple of them. Which is understandably so, i'm sure she really had fans who came up to her and wanted her to hurt them. Some people can't seperate fantasy from reality, i'm sure in the mid 80's Slayer had many fans come up and ask them what kind of animals they sacrifice on their bus at night, which probably made the guys somewhat freaked. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with bondage, i think its pretty cool actually, but i agree with the point in the film that there are some out there who take it to the next level and those folks can be scary.

[–] tickletrunkmail 18 years ago

I completely agree. I didn't have a problem with the stuff in the hearings and the guy talking about his son because that was the point of view they were trying to get across. What I did have a problem with was the constant assertion that there was absolutely nothing wrong with it and then portraying the two people (little john and willie, I think his name was) who were directing the shoots, and the one fan, and creepy, lascivious men was hypocritical. I know many, many people who are into bondage and BDSM and I one of my friends is a fetish photography. Not a one of them is creepy or lascivious. It is just an interest - an art form. In order to get that across, which appeared to be what the film was trying to say, they should not have portrayed those people in that way. Maybe the fan, but it would have to have been done differently - as someone who also didn't get it and judged Bettie for what she was doing.

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] MrGKB 18 years ago

No offense, but if you think BDSM is "just...an art form," then you don't understand what BDSM really is.

_____________________________
When in doubt, watch a movie!
Once certain, watch it again!

[–] tickletrunkmail 17 years ago

BDSM is not just an art form, no. But the photography to which I was referring is.

[–] MrGKB 17 years ago

Roger that, and I agree. Mea culpa for the misinterpretation.

_____________________________
When in doubt, watch a movie!
Once certain, watch it again!

[–] kevinb120-1 17 years ago

I think it nails her personal view on the subject perfectly. Her quotes like the 'adam and eve' reference are the same ones she has said verbatim in every single interview, even ones 40+ years later. In a 1998 TV interview she talks about seeing nothing wrong with the outfits or acts and how it was just a silly fun game, word for word as in the movie. Obviously the makers of 'Notorious' based their portrayal of Bettie Page on what Bettie Page says about herself.(which a lot of people here apparently don't ever bother to look into).

There is a series on cable covering sex in Hollywood films over the years(featuring Dita Von Teese no less) and they also cover Bettie Page and her contributions (albeit somewhat inadvertently) as a pioneer bringing the idea of 'fetish' to the mainstream in detail. The series is called 'Indie Sex'(3 episodes) and runs periodically on IFC.

[–] Sunflower64 16 years ago

I know I'm a year late, but I wanted to respond to people's views about the film's portrayal of fetishism vs. the portrayal of festishists. In the 50's, sadomasochism was considered a sexual deviancy and a symptom of mental illness. So to discuss your personal interest in it in public must have been very nerve-racking. The cop in the beginning was not really a fetishist. He was working undercover, but I'm sure an actual fetishist at the time would have been just as anxious asking for a magazine. You never knew who you were talking to. The filmmakers said how there was a secret code that had to be used in these bookstores. I don't think Willie was a fetishist; I think he was like the Klaws in that he was simply taking the pictures and understood what the customers wanted. He just liked teasing Bettie and making her uncomfortable. I didn't find the fan creepy at all; I actually thought he was kind of adorable in an unorthodox way. Like many awestruck fans talking to somebody they admire, he gets fantasy and reality confused. He assumes Bettie's really into it and she's not. She gets uncomfortable and taken aback because she doesn't understand what he's talking about but she never insults him or acts offended. She even says, "I'm sure you're a very nice person." As for Little John, it goes back to the whole "sadomasochism as sexual deviancy" issue. Here's a guy who's big turn on is considered a mental illness. It's probably made him nervous and insecure. Plus, he lives with his mother, so he's very likely pretty lonely. I think he comes off as unusual, but not necessarily creepy. And the other characters never judge him. The Klaws and Bettie say repeatedly that he's a very nice man who wouldn't hurt anybody. It's like Paula says, "It takes all types to move a world."

I admired the film for not coming down hard on either side of the issue and for presenting Bettie's struggle between her work and her faith without making one seem GOOD and the other EVIL. Even at the end, Bettie's not ashamed of her past career. She just felt God told her to move on.

Clementine was murdered.