MovieChat Forums > Le scaphandre et le papillon (2008) Discussion > I am so stunned. Someone please help me...

I am so stunned. Someone please help me...


...understand why Jean Do and friends did not make use of eye-tracking software, which was readily available during this time, to help him better communicate with those around him. I'm serious, I loved the movie but my head felt like it was going to explode when no one thought of using technology to help the guy. WTF?! Stephen Hawking ring a bell, anyone? I am getting furious just writing this so I will stop. One last thought; he could have written the book in a fraction of the time it took him! Aaahhhhhhhhh! *beep*

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E S A R I N T U L O

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^^ LOL ^^

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WTF does it even matter?

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Sorry to disagree, but I agree with the original poster on this one. The guy spent so much time frustrated, having to communicate so slowly that I think ANYTHING that would help make his life easier, I think would have been a big relief for him. I think this is a really good question...

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Maybe it wasn't available in French at a reasonable price, or the people in this small hospital just didn't do enough research?

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That's what I was thinking! I thought it was a good idea to use the alphabet thing to start but that they'd then move on to something better. They never did, though, and it bugged the crap outta me! They could've at least taught him Morse code blinking or Semaphore via eye movements, and those are just off the top of my head. Almost anything is more efficient that what they did. Blah!

-Jeremiah

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it's great to see the pretty therapist reading the alphabet faster and faster. great voice.

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I don't know the full answer to this question. But I do know that I read the director say that the technology to help Bauby did not exist at the time. I know you bring up Hawking, but it is possible that Hawking's condition was slightly different than Bauby's in ways that made the technology of the time workable for the one but not the other. However limited, I believe Hawking did have *some* mobility--more than Bauby, at least. I don't pretend to know how these devices work or, more importantly, worked at that time, but there could have been subtle but important differences that made all the difference for Bauby vs. Hawking.

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I understand your frustration on his behalf but there could be many reasons why that technology wasn't made available to him. The point is, this was the way they chose to overcome his inability to communicate verbally and it is part of what makes the whole story so poignant. That it was so time-consuming and frustrating to tell it, but he still did so.
And perhaps if the book had been written less pain-stakingly, the story wouldn't be the same as it is?

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I agree. No pain no fun.

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I totally agree with you, but it's a little sad that his story wouldn't have made nearly as much of an impact as it did, had he been able to use technology in order to communicate.

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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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True, it wouldn't. And that's because most moviegoers are looking for entertainment, not for empathizing with another human being's tragedy.

Sad, indeed.

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Well, he11 yeah. I'm no freakin' expert on communication therapy, but who couldn't figure out it would've been faster to RUN YOUR FINGERS ALONG THE LETTERS and watch for him to blink than to SAY them over and over? How could these idiots have done this for hours on end and never figured THAT out? You could have an actual keyboard wired up; he blinks, you push the button. He knows where the letters are; he knows when you're about to get to it. BAM. lol. Get an ugly American on that job and you'd have it fixed tout de suite!

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Apparently the French aren't smart enough to use common sense.

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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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Well, it just amazes me because in general I consider the French extremely practical - or at least to prize practicality as a virtue. I would never say the French as a whole aren't smart. On the whole their level of education and discourse gives them a leg (or two) to stand on when justifying much of their superior attitude about intellectual matters versus the rest of the world, and Americans in particular. The "ugly American" crack was really meant to be funny (and perhaps a wee bit of "gotcha" back ; but all in fun), but I do think, from the little I know from observing the two national characters, if there is such a thing, is that Americans just don't put up with sh!t. Is this left over from having a frontier and believing the world was a blank slate where we were free to change anything that didn't suit us? Maybe that's why we're seen as rude, but it's often the thin edge of wedge of innovation. You have to be dissatisfied with something enough to exert the energy it takes to change it. Dissatisfied to the point of being annoyed with it, 'cause really, if you just don't like it, but not to the point where it irritates you, are you going to waste the time doing all that it would take to fix it, or just blow it off? By contrast, I think the French are stoic, and believe that life is meant to be hard work. Obviously, not every French person is going to believe this and there's going to be varying degrees, but it's my opinion that laborousness, etc. being expected in life and just accepting your lot and the way of the world is much closer to the French "national character" than it is to the American. Conversely, I think the opposite may be true in the realm of political life in each country, at least currently.

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That system of communication was working. So they were using it. End of story.

Now, how one feels about time, how annoying/irritating some things might be to one or another person, all these are secondary. What's important is: that system was good enough for Jean Do to communicate and even to write a book. Very few hospitals do have the money for the latest technology. Most of them are doing their best with what they have. Many of them are not even aware of the existence of better technology. Again, if something was functional, albeit "time consuming" (but the sense of time is relative, remember?) - then why fix it if not broken?

Also, the slow and awkward communication was part of the narrative - if communication was fast and easy, then the film would have been less interesting (as someone here already observed). I know that sounds kind of heartless. But I'm talking here just about the film, and not about the suffering human being.

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He was the editor-in-chief of Elle magazine France. You're telling me he couldn't afford the best medical attention possible? Heh. And just because something "works," doesn't mean that it's efficient.

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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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And just because something "works," doesn't mean that it's efficient.

"Was working" is fact. It is objective. "Efficiently" is judgment. It is subjective. That system was relatively efficient. After all, re wrote a book that way, didn't he?

Editor in chief at Elle... Well, he probably had a good salary there. But what do we know about his bank account? Maybe he wasn't that rich. Maybe he has spent a fortune at the casino and was now in debt... They don't mention anything in the film about his financial situation. We can only speculate.

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Oh my. Okay check this out. This is the definition of efficiency; accomplishment of or ability to accomplish a job with a minimum expenditure of time and effort.

The way he communicated was not as efficient as other techniques available at that time. That is fact. But regardless, you're missing the big picture, so I'll try to dumb it down for you.

It's not about replacing something that is broken. It's about making something more efficient. Take computers for example. Would you want a computer from 4 years ago, or would you rather use a computer from today? WAIT, I have an even better one. Would you rather write a person a letter and send it by snail mail, or would you rather write them an email? hahahaha. And there you have it. Point proven ;).

And FYI, I find it extremely amusing that you say, "They don't mention anything in the film about his financial situation...We can only speculate." Haha, no, "we" can do more than that since he was a real person you silly goose. Is that where you get all your information from? Watching movies?...?...Funny.


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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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Until someone actually sees/hears something from the specific parties involved (minus Jean-Do himself, obviously--unless he 'said' something about it before he died) about why this choice vs. some other choices were made, than all these discussions about efficiency/the French/the Americans etc. etc. aren't going to yield any useful conclusion on this issue.

One can't reach a legitimate conclusion based on nothing but one's sense of what one thinks should have been available and worked for a particular individual.

All I know is what I've heard. And what I heard was from Julian Schnabel--who I have to assume has done more research into this than anyone on the board. JS said that far easier means are, of course, now available, but they weren't at the time.

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And my original point was that with a little more ingenuity they could have made the original method easier and more efficient on EVERYONE, not just Jean-Do. Not talking about something that would have taken vast gobs of money or research to devise, just a refinement of what they had going, even if it was just the "point rather than say" method. My puzzlement is WHY NOT make improvements in the system? It was a labor intensive method NOT JUST for Jean-Do; look at how many man-hours (or excuse me, people-hours or whatever) were being sucked into this and the fatigue had to be incredible. Sure, his book publisher probably paid for Claude, his family were self-motived, and with socialized medicine the therapists were probably on the hospital's dime, so I doubt any of it cost Jean-Do anything, and since he didn't have anything better to do, he was probably happy enough for all these people to spend all this time with him. My point isn't really that, it's just that there are ways that are readily apparent to make the process more humane - again for everyone, because let's not forget that there were people who struggled right along with Jean-Do, notably Claude, who, although she surely got paid for it, it had to have been an enormous sacrifice to do, and I doubt any salary a profit-conscious book publisher would've paid for essentially secretarial work would've been very generous. Jean-Do had no choice but to work this way. But for another person to discipline themselves to work in that extremely fatiguing and frustrating way, ye gods!

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@ DonNova - First off, talking down probably makes you feel superior, while in the same time making the opposite true. Now, to your points:

Oh my. Okay check this out. This is the definition of efficiency; accomplishment of or ability to accomplish a job with a minimum expenditure of time and effort.

I know what efficiency means, thank you. That definition doesn't contradict my point. "Was working" is fact. Accomplishing the task is fact. The rest - "minimum," "time," "effort" - they're all judgments, all relative. That communication scheme was effective, getting the job done. As it seems, time was not an issue for those people. Making it more "efficient?" To research for faster ways of communication? Well, they didn't bother. "Faster" was irrelevant for them. You are correct about that: they didn't bother. Do you mind? Well, you can sue them...

However, keep in mind that should they bother, the film would have been quite different. If Bambi was a hamster, then the cartoon would have been different, don't you think?

The way he communicated was not as efficient as other techniques available at that time. That is fact. But regardless, you're missing the big picture, so I'll try to dumb it down for you.

No need to "dumb down" anything. It's not me who doesn't see your point, it's you who don't see mine. Of course, that wasn't the best communication system. So what? It worked for them. I'm sorry if you have a problem with that.

It's not about replacing something that is broken. It's about making something more efficient. Take computers for example. Would you want a computer from 4 years ago, or would you rather use a computer from today? WAIT, I have an even better one. Would you rather write a person a letter and send it by snail mail, or would you rather write them an email? hahahaha. And there you have it. Point proven ;).

You don't need to prove a point anything, for your examples are irrelevant to the case. They didn't choose a worse system over a better system that was available to them. They have had one effective system already working. And they didn't bother to look for more efficient systems. So what?

And FYI, I find it extremely amusing that you say, "They don't mention anything in the film about his financial situation...We can only speculate." Haha, no, "we" can do more than that since he was a real person you silly goose.

"Silly goose"? That doesn't say anything about me, while telling something about yourself. Now, use your informational sources about "the real person" and then please post the results of your research on his financial situation at the moment of his hospitalization.

What really counts is that this film was not a documentary but a fictional movie. It was not aiming at depicting reality faithfully. This film has other points to make, its aim was not to showcase the best way to communicate with disabled persons. And on this communication issue, the main point is this: the easier the communication, the less interesting the movie.

Is that where you get all your information from? Watching movies?...?...Funny.

This is self-explanatory and, again, doesn't say anything about me but about yourself.

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No actually, my points were quite valid. And I don't know about you, but if I was in his position and there were more efficient ways of communication, I definitely would have wanted them. Bottom line, the way of communication they used was not as effective as other methods available at that time. The question is: Why wasn't more efficient methods used? You completely miss this concept, even though that is what the original OP had started this thread for. And as far as the topic of this thread is concerned, your answer was "That system of communication was working. So they used it. End of story." That statement does not even come close to trying to answer why the hell they didn't use a more efficient form of communication. I believe there is nothing more you can say so I guess this argument is pretty much over.

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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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Why wasn't more efficient methods used? ... , your answer was "That system of communication was working. So they used it. End of story." That statement does not even come close to trying to answer why the hell they didn't use a more efficient form of communication.

I have offered a valid answer to the "why" question: they didn't use a better method for two (related) reasons - 1) they were satisfied with the working communication system they already had, and 2) they didn't feel the need to look for another one.

What would YOUR answer be to the "why" question? Could it be this: "Apparently the French aren't smart enough to use common sense."

I believe there is nothing more you can say so I guess this argument is pretty much over.

Arguments are alright while staying civil. I take it that your previous insulting remarks, calling names, and such, are OK for you as manners of talking to strangers. My advice: be nice.

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Let me be blunt, your answers suck and are a reflection of your ignorance, you think you are intelligent, but in actuality you're just a moron with an inflated ego, and you are irritating. Cya ;).

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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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Let me be blunt, your answers suck and are a reflection of your ignorance, you think you are intelligent, but in actuality you're just a moron with an inflated ego, and you are irritating. Cya ;).

I apologize for inadvertently causing any irritation to you. You are right to feel that way about my ignorance and inflated ego. What can be expected from a moron? But maybe, just maybe, it's time for you to reflect a bit on your own signature - doesn't it remind you of anything? (that was a rhetorical question.)

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I was equally frustrated. Even if you don't have the software/hardware tech, use Morse code, or a simple grid system and let him "blink" the row/column coordinates of the letter. What they used was the least efficient method possible.

Gotta love that socialized medicine...

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In reply to why eye-tracking and computer technology was not used the following article explains:

http://polishlinux.org/apps/dasher-keyboard-without-keys/

Sadly it seems the technology was invented the very year Bauby died.

Someone also mentioned Stephen Hawking, but his condition is different and he has always controlled his speech box with his cheek and it is far from efficient in live conversation, a question posed to him during one talk took 7 minutes to answer. As Bauby had pretty much no movement except his eye this would not work.

As to why they couldn't come up with a more efficient method, perhaps the phrase 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' is appropriate. Firstly, in the film the timescale is not given, as for Bauby, one day blurs into another and time would lose meaning. But perfecting one method would have taken time and patience and once he was comfortable using it and it had been picked up by those around him, why start trying different methods. As shown in the film, it could be surprisingly quick and efficient, people being the best predictive texters.

Any method that requires extra blinking would prove an irritant to the eye. Have you ever tried blinking lots rapidly? I can see no reason why running your finger over letters until he blinks is any more effective than reading them out, and certainly it's less stimulating for him. The way they worked in the film, both people involved kept eye contact, much more pleasurable than staring at a keyboard or screen. Plus if you're running your finger across the letters, you could press the wrong one whilst watching out for his blink.

Ultimately, each person is different and what may work and make sense for one will not for another. The way I understood it, the method she came up with was unique at the time and tailored to his specific condition. I'm certain she never imagined it could be used to compose an entire novel!

I think we should all admire his sheer persistence and imagination. How many of us give up on a task when faced with a small obstacle? It is an inspirational story.

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Gentlemen, hats off!

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"Any method that requires extra blinking would prove an irritant to the eye. Have you ever tried blinking lots rapidly? I can see no reason why running your finger over letters until he blinks is any more effective than reading them out, and certainly it's less stimulating for him. The way they worked in the film, both people involved kept eye contact, much more pleasurable than staring at a keyboard or screen. Plus if you're running your finger across the letters, you could press the wrong one whilst watching out for his blink."

This whole paragraph is an opinion. I know wam6571 wouldn't like to point that out, seeing as how he thinks he has finally found a friend on this board.

Yes, he had some nice OPINIONS there. None of which back up your own theories which were, if you forgot, "1) they were satisfied with the working communication system they already had, and 2) they didn't feel the need to look for another one."

Your theories lack a huge component in this equation; What was the opinion of Jean Dominique's? Was he satisfied with this system? Did he want them to look for another means of communication? Was there any point in time that Bauby was offered an alternative means of communication? I don't know the answer to this. You don't either.

And in all honesty, I'm not sure how much of his book he actually wrote. Have you read his book? I have, and at several points in the book, I questioned whether or not Bauby wrote the book in it's entirety.
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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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"This whole paragraph is an opinion."

Isn't is great? You can express an opinion, I can express an opinion. And yes, it's all conjecture because I know no one who suffers from locked-in syndrome and neither do I have the medical training to treat it.

Let's introduce the opinions of people more directly involved. The following link will take you to a medical website with a whole article written by a locked-in syndrome sufferer and a expert in the field.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/331/7508/94

There is a great deal of interesting information included in the article that helps us to understand this complicated situation. For instance:

"It is more often relatives than medical staff who realise the patient's predicament (usually by noticing intuitively that the patient is awake and registering what is going on). Nick's mother and his girlfriend pleaded with the medical staff to realise that he was aware of what was happening, and when the clinicians appreciated that the diagnosis was locked-in syndrome, the climate of care changed. A patient in locked-in syndrome cannot interact with us because he or she has lost the ability to control his or her body (except, in most cases, the ability to move the eyes up and down) but, importantly, the subliminal cues that intuitively alert us to the presence of another person are all that is needed for the suspicion to form and then the diagnosis to be confirmed by imaging and bedside interaction."

I think in our discussion the words "intuitively", "subliminal" and "interaction" give a clear indication of the angle you have to approach anyone with locked-in syndrome. Their ability to respond in any way considered normal is completely removed so and contact requires a lot from the other person too. There is no precise methodology that can be applied.

The other highly relevant excerpt is this:

"I talk by using a transparent Perspex board (about A2 size) with the letters of the alphabet spaced out on it (identically on both sides). The person holds it up between our eyes (about 800 mm apart). I spell out each letter of my sentence using my eyes (similar to a typewriter), with the other person guessing each letter I'm starring at, until I've spelt out a whole sentence—extremely laborious! It's also very difficult (almost impossible) to express yourself or be sarcastic. When the person doesn't understand what I'm trying to spell, it rapidly becomes immensely frustrating for me, and the frustration very quickly turns into anger, mostly because the spell board is my only method of explaining it "

Is this more or less efficient than the method used by Bauby? It certainly sounds laborious and inefficient. If anyone thinks they have a better solution the doctor's email is at the top of the article, feel free to make your suggestions or ask why other methods were not used. He's certainly more qualified than anyone else to answer.

It is clear there is no hard and fast solution to the communication problem. If you browse through the responses to the above article you'll see people from all over the world with relatives who suffer from locked-in syndrome. Some of them express interest in the persepex board method. Certainly the technological answer available now is still prohibitively expensive both for the equipment and the expert training required to operate it.

As to whether Bauby was offered any alternative. No, we don't know. But as he had a acceptable method of interaction I would suggest he was perfectly capable of asking if there was an alternative had he wanted to.

And as for your final 'opinion' about whether he wrote the whole book. Well, he was a professional journalist who'd managed to become the editor of French Elle. I'm sure he was perfectly capable. It's very likely the editors helped shaped the final product very closely, as is normal, but nothing more. But that comment has no bearing on the original discussion and is pure speculation.

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I didn't bother to read your entire post because it was too long and I wasn't talking to you. My reply is to something wam6571 had said in a previous post stating the difference between fact and judgement.

But, to end this argument I will say this; It all boils down to whether or not Bauby was offered another means of communication. All other information is completely irrelevant.

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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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It all boils down to whether or not Bauby was offered another means of communication.

He wasn't. Why do you think he wasn't?

In OP's words, "someone please help me understand why Jean Do and friends did not make use of eye-tracking software, which was readily available during this time, to help him better communicate with those around him."

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What are you talking about?

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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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I am talking about the occurrence that Bauby wasn't offered another means of communication. My (and OP's) question was: in your opinion, why wasn't Bauby offered another means of communication?

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I don't know and you don't know. You've already proven that by your previous answers. Please refer to your previous posts if you'd like references. And I think you missed the point, it is a question of whether or not he was offered a different means of communication.

And if you believe he wasn't offered another means of communication, or if you know why he wasn't offered another means of communication, please link your sources or STFU ;).

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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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So, apparently, your current answer to the OP's question is: "I don't know." You don't have an opinion with regard to OP's "Why" question. "I don't know" is not very helpful, but a honest answer nevertheless.

Now, how about your previous statement: "Apparently the French aren't smart enough to use common sense." That looked to me like an on-topic answer. Was it?

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I know no one is talking to me here and that I've unwittingly stumbled into a 'private' discussion but something about this is bugging me. I'll try to keep this short... sorry if I fail.

The question the OP was asking was why didn't they use technology to help him converse. The answer to that is the technology didn't exist and is still being perfected to this day.

The conversation then changed to why they didn't find a more efficient method.

And I quote:

"The way he communicated was not as efficient as other techniques available at that time. That is fact."

NOT fact. What are these other techniques? How are they more efficient? What evidence do you have to back up this claim?

The original question intrigued me because it was something I had not considered. Now I have looked into it, there is no evidence of a more effective system. Every system is based on the same or similar theory. Including the previous example I found of using a perspex board with letters on.

This is probably too long but ce'st la vie!

The link below is the closest we're likely to get to the original source of this whole dispute. It's the official site for the Association of Locked-In Syndrome, set up by... Jean-Dominique Bauby.

http://alis-asso.fr/ewb_pages/e/eng_alis.php

The next link (found via the first link) is where I found more evidence that the methods used in the film are pretty much standard for LIS sufferers across the world.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/57336?pageNumber=2

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My previous statement, "Apparently the French aren't smart enough to use common sense," was sarcasm. If you read the post I replied to you would have known this, but you are ignorant and all is forgiven.

Yes, I don't know why or if he was offered another means of communication, but what your ignorance neglects to realize is that YOU DON'T EITHER.

And to mikedale, where's the link that eyetracking wasn't available? Also link a reference that states Bauby was offered more efficient or alternative means of communication. Thanks.


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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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My previous statement, "Apparently the French aren't smart enough to use common sense," was sarcasm. If you read the post I replied to you would have known this, but you are ignorant and all is forgiven.

1) "all is forgiven"
There is nothing to be forgiven here, besides perhaps your incessant insults like "you are ignorant," "your answers suck," "you're just a moron with an inflated ego." But the intentional nature of these insults makes them unforgivable.

Conclusion:
You, as an offender, as an intentional transgressor of civil discussion rules, are far from the position to offer forgiveness.

2) "you are ignorant"
Let's analyze who is ignoring what here.

Here is your claim:
This statement < Apparently the French aren't smart enough to use common sense. > is sarcastic.

And here is what precludes its alleged sarcasm:
Sarcasm necessarily requires irony, and there is no trace of irony in your statement. If your position was on those French people's side, then yes -- you could have passed your statement as ironical, even sarcastic. But you never said anything that would show personal favorable attitude towards them. On the contrary, your position was consistently on the opposite side, against them -- which rules out any ironic intention from your part in that statement. In the absence of irony, a statement can't be sarcastic. And since it can't be sarcastic, your statement indicates that you truly believe that French people are not very smart. Now, given how carelessly you label strangers as "ignorant," that makes your type of thinking rather consistent. Further, given how carelessly you dismiss well-documented and carefully backed-up points, as those posted by mikedale78, that puts everything in an even clearer picture that you are painting here. And you are here painting your own picture, make no mistake about it. You can't harm anyone but yourself: not the French people, not mikedale78, not me, not anyone but your-own-petty-self. The insults you spout is just pissing against the wind. Which, I'm sorry to observe, makes you stink.

Conclusions:
a. Since it is you and not me who ignores what sarcasm is, that makes you also ignore who the real ignorant is on sarcasm matters -- which is, again, yourself.
b. Since that careless statement of yours can't be sarcasm, that makes it what it really is: a shameless and obtuse insult toward French people.

Yes, I don't know why or if he was offered another means of communication, but what your ignorance neglects to realize is that YOU DON'T EITHER.

My ignorance about what? What's the thing that I was neglecting? There was nothing there to neglect. What you are ignoring here is that I have never made any claim of knowing why or whatnot. I have only observed that those people were using a working system, which made me assume that this must have been enough reason for them not to drop it. No pretense from my part of knowing anything about the subject, just an opinion intended to answer OP's "why" question.

And to mikedale, where's the link that eyetracking wasn't available? Also link a reference that states Bauby was offered more efficient or alternative means of communication. Thanks.

It was YOU, and not mikedale78, who was suggesting that eyetracking technology was available and efficiently working on LIS patients in 1995. And since it was you who was implying the existence of that technology at that time, therefore it is upon YOU to prove its existence, and not upon mikedale78 to prove its nonexistence. What you ask is absurd, or at least immature, like "prove to me that God doesn't exist. Since you can't prove its nonexistence, therefore God exists. I win." That's childish thinking. Asking for internet links that would prove the nonexistence of something? Ludicrous.

In other words: without any proof, you were assuming that in 1995 there was available some eyetracking technology that was efficiently working on LIS patients. Since you were assuming that, therefore it is on YOU to post links that would prove your claim. After (and if) you will prove what you claim as true, then and only then you can ask whether or not Bauby was offered alternative eyetracking technology. What you ignore here is this part of mikedale78's post:
The link below is the closest we're likely to get to the original source of this whole dispute. It's the official site for the Association of Locked-In Syndrome, set up by... Jean-Dominique Bauby.

http://alis-asso.fr/ewb_pages/e/eng_alis.php

The next link (found via the first link) is where I found more evidence that the methods used in the film are pretty much standard for LIS sufferers across the world.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/57336?pageNumber=2

Take the time to actually read those articles. There are still chances that you will finally understand. Then, maybe you will have the civility to apologize for your insults, also the decency to take off your hat in front of mikedale78. That's what gentlemen do: acknowledge evident superiority and give due praise to someone who's been truly helpful.

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"Well, he11 yeah. I'm no freakin' expert on communication therapy, but who couldn't figure out it would've been faster to RUN YOUR FINGERS ALONG THE LETTERS and watch for him to blink than to SAY them over and over? How could these idiots have done this for hours on end and never figured THAT out? You could have an actual keyboard wired up; he blinks, you push the button. He knows where the letters are; he knows when you're about to get to it. BAM. lol. Get an ugly American on that job and you'd have it fixed tout de suite!"

There ya go moron, that is post in which my statement was targeted at.

-"Was working" is fact. It is objective. "Efficiently" is judgment. It is subjective.-

Your first condescending remark directed towards me, which started this childish argument.

"Acknowledge evident superiority."

You've ben condescending throughout this whole thread. Yep you sure are a gentlemen. The first article says nothing, besides that, it's a French website. The second article, you obviously didn't read yourself:

"Other boards have letters arranged in 4 blocks: 1 for vowels and 3 alphabetically grouped blocks of consonants. The patient first blinks to designate a block, then uses the previously described method to designate a letter within the block. A third method arranges letters in a grid; the patient first blinks to designate the row in which a letter resides, then blinks to designate the column."

There were other methods available at the time. Why was the way that Bauby communicated the one that was chosen. WAS HE OFFERED ANOTHER MEANS OF COMMUNICATION?????? Yikes, your failure to realize the obvious is irritating and I don't know if I can continue this argument, given the fact that you lack basic understanding.

Oh yeah, and you are ignorant because I never referred to eyetracking, I said there were other efficient forms of communication. Your condescending behavior (which I admit has been returned to you in full, by me), and your lack of attention to detail have all lead me to the conclusion that yes, you are an ignorant moron with an inflated ego ;). Good day to you Sir.




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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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Oh yeah, and you are ignorant because I never referred to eyetracking

Au contraire, my porcine pal, that makes YOU an ignorant and much worse. In your previous two posts (also before) you have specifically mentioned eyetracking technology as being available at that time, and you were even challenging mikedale78 to prove its nonexistence (!). Now you say you never referred to it. What makes that of you? That makes you a dirty liar, no surprise for someone trying to hide broad insults under the pretension of so-called sarcasm, who also is a petty coward afraid to admit his own blatant errors (btw, by "acknowledge evident superiority" I was obviously referring to mikedale78, to HIS superiority). Also you come off as an uncultivated prick unaware of the very existence of communication manners. Also, a dimwit who doesn't have the slightest notion of rational argumentation. Also, an emotionally defective bully who doesn't realize how ugly his public behaviour is. I stop here, in utter disgust. You, DonNova, truly stink. Go take a shower, then put some clothes on you and learn to behave yourself.

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Oh boy, eye tracking has been around for a long time. HOWEVER, I HAVE ALWAYS USED THE TERM "MORE EFFICIENT COMMUNICATION." I HAVE ALWAYS STATED THAT THERE WAS MORE EFFICIENT WAYS OF COMMUNICATION. I NEVER REFERRED TO EYETRACKING AS ONE OF THESE FORMS. I HAVE STATED THAT EYETRACKING WAS AVAILABLE EVEN BEFORE THE DASHER SOFTWARE HOWEVER (BUT NEVER HAVE I STATED IT BEING ONE OF THE ALTERNATIVES FORMS OF COMMUNICATION). IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE, QUOTE ME MORON. YOU STILL HAVE NOT ADDRESSED MY MAINPOINTS BECAUSE YOU CAN'T PROVE OTHERWISE. THE ONLY REASON WHY I MENTIONED EYETRACKING WAS IN RESPONSE TO MIKEDALE'S POSTS.

And another thing,

"Au contraire, my porcine pal, that makes YOU an ignorant and much worse. In your previous two posts (also before) you have specifically mentioned eyetracking technology as being available at that time, and you were even challenging mikedale78 to prove its nonexistence (!). Now you say you never referred to it. What makes that of you? That makes you a dirty liar, no surprise for someone trying to hide broad insults under the pretension of so-called sarcasm, who also is a petty coward afraid to admit his own blatant errors (btw, by "acknowledge evident superiority" I was obviously referring to mikedale78, to HIS superiority). Also you come off as an uncultivated prick unaware of the very existence of communication manners. Also, a dimwit who doesn't have the slightest notion of rational argumentation. Also, an emotionally defective bully who doesn't realize how ugly his public behaviour is. I stop here, in utter disgust. You, DonNova, truly stink. Go take a shower, then put some clothes on you and learn to behave yourself."

HAHAHAHA, AND YOU SAY I'M THE BULLY?


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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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Order, order! Quiet in court or you'll be in contempt of court.

(For fear of treading the path well trod....)

For the prosecution m'lud, speaks Jonthome and DonNova:

Opening argument from Jonthome:

“why Jean Do and friends did not make use of eye-tracking software, which was readily available during this time, to help him better communicate with those around him.”

and from DonNova:

“It all boils down to whether or not Bauby was offered another means of communication.”

The defense would like to offer the following link to prove appropriate technology was not accessible and is still prohibitive in cost.

http://polishlinux.org/apps/dasher-keyboard-without-keys/

The defense calls upon an expert witness (as linked below) to testify that there are alternatives available. We suggest m'lud that had the option of a perspex board been offered to monsieur Bauby it may have taken longer to write his book and would not be practical outside of the hospital environ. I recommend the jury take particular note of the challenges facing patient, doctor and relatives when dealing with LIS. Communication is clearly challenging and requires close interaction.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/331/7508/94

The defense also offers up a direct link to the patient's own association. Sadly much of the site is presented in French and at such short notice we have no translator present. But this does allow those interested to note that the association was set up by the patient to promote research and development of treatment for LIS sufferers. This suggests a high level of communication and awareness of the up to date situation regarding treatment methods or lack thereof at the time of his ailment. It also offers the very real prospect of requesting further information on the treatment (and therefore communication choice presented) given to the patient from a group directly linked to him.

http://alis-asso.fr/ewb_pages/e/eng_alis.php

Finally I offer another expert opinion proving that there are indeed other methods available. But I put it to the jury that none offer a greater level of communication above and beyond that of the patient's own method. Also it is linked directly from his own association's website. Please note that the date of the article is January 2007 and therefore written almost a decade after the passing of the patient.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/57336?pageNumber=2

In summary, though we cannot be sure 100% if other methods were indeed presented to monsieur Bauby the evidence gives us several clues. Firstly the technology was not sufficient to assist. Eye tracking may well have been available but with no software to apply it to communication it was of no use. Therefore it is unlikely to have even been considered.

From our expert testimonies it is evident that even 10 years after his passing the methods of communication have actually advanced very little. That would suggest that with a patient suffering from LIS a very limited choice is available. The fact that monsieur Bauby set up an association with the very aim of advancing the treatment of LIS sufferers suggests quite clearly that he was aware of his limited options and did indeed want a greater choice.

In closing m'lud and members of the jury, I say this. Without direct contact with the people involved we will never know for sure, in that I agree with my esteemed colleagues. But I feel that the evidence points overwhelmingly to one thing; monsieur Bauby was aware of his plight, able to communicate freely and used his intelligence to write a book that helped the medical world and indeed the world at large understand that LIS sufferers may appear vegetative but are not. A man who could do this was most definitely capable of asking the experts around him if there were other choices.

The defense rests their case m'lud.

(At which point the judge throws us all out of court for wasting his time...)

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Just want to add, in case for some weird reason it isn't obvious, that the movie is based on a true story. The film maker didn't set it up so that he communicate that way for story-telling or poignancy reason, that's the way it was for the guy.

The only valid tech I could think of that would be helpful would be eye tracking software, so maybe for one reason or another that tech wasn't appropriate for him (imperfect/availability?).

some one mentioned morse code, which seems logical at first glance, but I think it would be tough to not only teach him morse code from scratch (without other communication methods), but also to teach anyone who need to communicate with him morse code (e.g. his family), or have a trained morse code personnel with him at all time.

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Ooops, missed this post:

> mikedale78 5 days ago (Thu Nov 20 2008 15:43:12)

> In reply to why eye-tracking and computer technology was not used the following > article explains:

> http://polishlinux.org/apps/dasher-keyboard-without-keys/

> Sadly it seems the technology was invented the very year Bauby died.

That is sad. I hope they'd perfected this tech for current LIS patients now.

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Eyetracking has been around a lot longer than that dasher program...
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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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I wonder what makes you think it wasn't an efficient system in the first place?

I mean, words follow each other naturally in context. His assistant could infer the next word in the sentence from one letter judging from the phone conversations. Some letters are more common than others--she probably didn't have to say 'z' very often.

The system also had a 'personal' connection to it. The assistant and other who helped him to communicate did so with compassion and patience. Maybe the whole point wasn't to write a book in the most efficient and quickest way possible. The assistant and the writer must have connected in ways we'll never understand.

American way vs. the French way? Yes--let's take a look at the superiority of the American way of life--its so far advanced from the rest of planet earth. Just try to ignore the fact that the Japanese own half your country's industries and universities and technologies.

The Japanese own you. I think its a payback for the Hiroshima thing frankly. What makes more sense--building more and more bombs and threatening the States, or just buying it outright--politicians, universities, technologies, everything, industries.

Greetings from Canada! You're making us rich! Keep driving those SUV's! Turn some lights on!

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Efficient- performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort.

"Maybe the whole point wasn't to write a book in the most efficient and quickest way possible." This entire thread was about whether or not it was an efficient method ya moron. What exactly was your point supposed to be in regards to the topic....?

And in regards to your ignorant comment about America. You definitely aren't the brightest out of the bunch. Every country is invested in the United States. If the US market collapses, pretty much all markets collapse because every country will be directly or indirectly affected. And yes, that includes your market too my Canadian friend. If we're making your country so rich than you Canadians are terrible with money because you're in a recession as well. So yeah, keep hoping that the US market fails which would result in a global economic collapse. Haha, get informed. I won't even comment on the "payback for Hiroshima" remark.

Please reply to this post, It'll be good for a laugh.

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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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Well, at least you spelled moron right.

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Looks like you have no valid reply to my post. I win ;).

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"I said your an idiot because clearly you are a retard."- Seifertj

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You might be over thinking the problem. You can't track an eye that cannot move.

Remember that Jean Do can only look in one direction? That's why his friends had to stoop down in one place to talk to him?

His eyes were already so bad off, that one eye was already non-functional, it's reasonable that the remaining eye was disabled.

Something like dasher would also work with 2D control: up and down. But I don't think Jean Do had even that. So you're really only left with 1D control: Blinking. At that point, no software is better than a live human being who can adapt, infer, etc. etc.

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bhfoe6 did you even see the movie? He could only look in one direction because of his neck, but his eye could move...

anyway, there's different types of strokes and disabilities so maybe he couldn't use the machine Hawkings used, that's just my theory.

The fact that logic cannot satisfy us awakens an almost insatiable hunger for the irrational.

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hafaball. I actually did not see the movie. Nice catch. I just like to comment on boards of movies I did not see. Going to Tropic Thunder board next, come with me.

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It was 1995. The technology was nowhere near good enough for this situation. It's hardly good enough nowadays.

The world moves for love; it kneels before it in awe. - Edward Walker (The Village)

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