When the kids wake him up in the middle of the night. They were going to go back in time, punch Platt in the face, then stop the kids from setting off the alarms, so he never wakes up... And then what? Now he and Aaron are permanent doubles. I guess he doesn't have a lot to lose but what about Aaron? He would never be able to go back to his family...
It just doesn't seem right.
Hi Joe...Well, the plan that Abe laid out was to "Do our business with Platts, get back in the box, and come back to right before those kids were setting off the alarm". So they actually planned to go punch Platts 1st and then go back and scare off the kids to prevent Abe from getting woken up so they would never have the punching Platts conversation in the 1st place. But I agree with you, then what happens to the Aaron & Abe that emerged from the boxes to scare the car alarm kids off? I suppose that-because of the actions of the doubles-if they then never got woken up and had the conversation, they would not have gotten into the boxes and went back so no doubles would have existed. Which seems like a classic paradox. But perhaps Aaron's statement during the gas station that "paradoxes would work themselves out somehow" applies here. On a separate note-This conversation is happening at about 2AM. Just a few moments after Abe said they would come back to "right before those kids woke him up" is when it's revealed that the boxes have been running since 5PM. That brings up two confusing points for me. 1. If the boxes had been started at 5PM and they planned to exit them at say 1AM "right before those kids were setting off the alarm" then would they not have experienced a nasty shock by not exiting at around the 5PM time when the boxes would have been cycling down? 2. Then just a few moments after that, their conversation indicates they plan to go all the way back to 5PM, not to "right before those kids set off the alarm". As I watch it again and think about it, I think Abe knew the whole time they'd have to go all the way back to 5PM and he wanted to break that news to Aaron in a couple of steps.
shareThey were not making permanent doubles. They would punch Platts, get back in the box and make sure their earlier selves did not wake up and punch Platts. (Thus, they get to punch him, but not suffer the consequences)
However, what we see is the (unknown to them) second time. The first time they went to punch Platts, something went wrong ("an emergency") and they could not continue or return. Thus, one of them sent Granger back in time to stop Abe and Aaron from going to see Platts.
Abe and Aaron are saved, but the obvious paradox affects Granger.
Try this for more information:
http://theprimeruniverse.blogspot.com/2009/05/granger-incident.html
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I suppose at this point in the movie, Abe doesn't know what will happen if he severs a causal chain. Only the small thing with the phone call has happened so far... But Aaaron knows! And its a mighty risky experiment for Abe I think.
shareAuthor, I guess I am still a little confused by the mechanics here. Even the mechanics of the answer I gave to some degree. So they punch Platts, get back in the box to make sure their earlier selves don't wake up & punch Platts by scaring the kids off. So for a while, there are two sets of them, the sleeping ones (call them set 1) and the ones that got into the box and went back to scare the kids off. (set 2) But how exactly do they (set 2) then "exit existence" so to speak and not remain as doubles? I mean, at the point that they scare the kids off would the doubles then just disappear or something?
shareOkay I think I get it now.
Abe and Aaron are under the impression that they are "prime". So they figure:
1. They will scare the kids off.
2. Their doubles will restart the time machines the next morning for another day of trading.
3. NO DOUBLES WILL EXIT SAID MACHINES.
4. Their doubles will travel back in time in the afternoon. Leaving them the sole Abe and Aaron in the time line.
The key being point 3. They think they are "prime travelers" so that they won't see any time traveling which they themselves aren't initiating.
I think its a foolish assumption, but seems to be their working assumption.
Right, if your double gets in the box, they will travel back, solving a potential paradox of having a permanent double.
Also above, they are not creating permanent doubles (in the question about Granger). Towards the end, they have made permanent doubles. One each from preventing their earlier selves from time traveling. And a third Aaron exists because Aaron2 refuses to get in the box, even though he allows Aaron3 to take over his role as Aaron2 moves to Paris. (although Shane says it was China in the original script before he changed it to Paris, as in 'Paris Mulligan'.)
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Dear Joe & Author,
I still don't see the mechanics. I don't see how "NO DOUBLES WILL EXIT SAID MACHINES"
Here is the flow that would have happened as I see it-assuming: Abe gets awakened Friday morning at 1AM, he and Aaron are talking at 2AM, and they plan to punch Platts between 2AM and 3AM, and get in the box at 3AM and travel back to 5PM Thursday.
Set 1 Abe & Aaron did already exist at 5PM Thursday. They did whatever from 5PM Thursday until they went to bed. They get awoken Friday 1AM...and THE PLAN is to punch Platts, and then enter the boxes at 3AM Friday and emerge from the boxes at 5PM Thursday thus becoming set 2. So now there would be two sets of them starting at 5PM Thursday. Set 1 would do whatever they did before from Thursday at 5PM until Friday at 1AM. Set 2 must avoid set 1 from Thursday at 5PM until Friday at 1AM. What would they do during that time? Go to the hotel? Who knows but they just need to avoid Set 1.
At 1AM Friday set 2 prevents set 1 from being awakened. Unless set 2 then just disappears out of existence set 1 and set 2 still exist simultaneously. Assuming set 2 does NOT just disappear:
Set 1 sleeps through the night and do what they "normally" do. Start the boxes at 8:15 AM Friday morning, go to the hotel/research stocks until 3PM, and then enter the boxes at 3PM, and so YES THEY DO INDEED EXIT THE MACHINES AT 8:15 AM FRIDAY MORNING, and become let's call them set 1B. Set 1 has now "exited existence" by becoming set 1B. Set 1B would do their stock trades, etc and just live out the rest of their day and go to bed. Set 1B would NOT re-enter the box again at 3PM.
So, set 2...What would they have they been doing this whole time? From 1AM Friday morning until now, 3PM Friday? The point is that set 2 never "exits existence" so now we have set 2 and set 1B both in existence. Even if at some point set 2 enter the boxes they will still emerge at some point in the past as a "set 2B" and still exist, leaving 2 sets.
I know this plan never comes to pass because of the Granger Incident, but Joe's point was that their ORIGINAL PLAN seemed to have the flaw of leaving set 2 in existence, thus creating permanent doubles. This indeed does seem to be the outcome of their original plan, so even after posting my reply to Joe's original question, and reading what you guys said as well-I admit I'm still a bit confused. Nothing any of the 3 of us has said seems to actually resolve why there would not have been permanent doubles, unless as I suggested, set 2 just disappears which seems somewhat out of character with the feel of the whole movie.
Abe and Aaron set 1 think they are prime travelers. They assume that this is the "first run" of the whole affair and so there won't be anyone to exit the box at 8:15 Friday morning.
It is naive, but it appears to be their operating assumption. Only their "echos" will be permanent doubles in some other timeline, but it doesn't seem they consider that at all.
Reference what Aaron says to Abe when he first sees Abe's double (much earlier in the film) "What do you think I did the first time? ... Just stayed at work I suppose."
They think (and might be right) that there is a "first run", and a prime traveller, and that at some point there was no second Abe to convince Aaron to take off of work. That when Abe turned on the machine and went to the hotel, no Abe exited the box 5 minutes later.
They are making the same assumption here. That they are the first run, and no one will exit the box.
Joe,
I think I agree with you that they were just making bad assumptions. I re-read your post from earlier and noticed you had said "they were figuring" before laying out your "4 step process". If they were figuring on #3 then I think they were figuring wrong and had the plan happened "as planned" then yes I believe there would still be permanent doubles.
However, even going with the thought of them being "Prime" there would still be no logical reason for either of them to think no-one would emerge from the boxes at 8:15 AM Friday. They themselves did say they planned to make the trip Friday "for stocks" just like usual so of course that would involve them entering the boxes at 3PM and exiting them at 8:15 AM. If #4 of your description happens, then someone MUST emerge from the boxes at 8:15 AM. Abe knew that before he even took the 1st trip which is why he set the timer.
I do think the earlier conversation in the car when Aaron asked Abe-
"What do you think I did the first time through? ... Probably just went back to work I suppose." was a little different thinking. I think all Aaron really meant there was "What do you think I (Aaron) did while you (Abe) were in the hotel room from 8:15 AM to 3 PM? (The line is a little confusing until it clicks that Aaron is referring to ABE's 1st time through, AND he is referring to the time Abe spent in the hotel room as "the first time through" So I think Aaron just meant the 1st time "through" the day. ie: before Abe had actually travelled back from 3PM to 8:15AM. Not the 1st time travelling "through" time.
I still don't see any logical answer why their plan would not have created permanent doubles had it happened as planned.
Right, so you see by that dialogue that they think there is a "first time" where no one will exit the box. Otherwise there is no question what Aaron was doing "before", its exactly the same as he is doing now. I'm not sure if they're right in assuming that there is a "first time" or prime timeline. I guess they might be, seeing as their actions are clearly not deterministic.
They are wrong, however, in assuming THEY are the prime travelers. That becomes increasingly unlikely the more time travel happens and Aaron actually already knows that Abe is not prime.
But in their sleep deprived minds I think it is all logically consistent. They didn't expect anyone to exit the box because they think they are prime travelers. The earlier dialogue makes this clear. Aaron asserts that there was a "first time" where Abe was preparing to time travel but no double running around contacting Aaron. Abe fails to contradict him.
Assuming the branching timeline model is correct, I don't think it matters whether Abe and Aaron are "prime" or not. I'll use Name-x to refer to the version of that person originating in timeline-x. No matter how often Name-x time travels, their memories will go back as far as timeline-x.
Timeline-1:
No one exits from the boxes at 5 pm Thursday.
Aaron-1 punches Platt.
Abe-1 and Aaron-1 enter the boxes at 3 am Friday, removing themselves from the timeline.
Platt files a police report and family members file missing person reports, but the police never find them because they no longer exist in this timeline.
Entering the boxes creates a new timeline:
Timeline-2:
Abe-2 and Aaron-2 exist in this timeline prior to 5 pm Thursday.
Abe-1 and Aaron-1 exit the boxes at 5 pm Thursday.
They meddle, Abe-2 and Aaron-2 sleep through the night, and no one enters the boxes at 3 am Friday.
Abe-2 and Aaron-2 power on the boxes at 8:15 am Friday.
No one exits from the boxes at 8:30 am.
Abe-2 and Aaron-2 enter the boxes at 3 pm Friday.
There are no permanent doubles. Abe-1 and Aaron-1 congratulate themselves on their brilliant plan. They return to their homes and resume their lives.
But entering the boxes at 3 pm Friday makes the timeline branch again:
Timeline-3:
Abe-3 and Aaron-3 exist in this timeline prior to 5 pm Thursday.
Abe-1 and Aaron-1 exit the boxes at 5 pm Thursday.
They meddle, Abe-3 and Aaron-3 sleep through the night, and no one enters the boxes at 3 am Friday.
Abe-3 and Aaron-3 power on the boxes at 8:15 am Friday.
Abe-2 and Aaron-2 exit the boxes at 8:30 am.
Abe-3 and Aaron-3 enter the boxes at 3 pm.
Abe-2 and Aaron-2 return to their homes and resume their lives.
Abe-1 and Aaron-1 realize they've screwed up by creating permanent doubles.
Even if Abe-1 and Aaron-1 are prime, they will still end up in two timeline branches, one in which they are permanent doubles. If each new timeline branch wipes out or overwrites the previous one, then the last timeline has permanent doubles.
In this branching model of time travel, every time they go through the boxes results in a timeline in which they no longer exist (the only exception being when they exited the boxes at 5 pm). Kara no longer has a husband and Lauren is left fatherless. After a month or two with no rent payment, employees from the storage company will open the lockers and discover the boxes. If Abe and Aaron left any notes behind and the if employees are curious enough, they might figure out how to time travel themselves.