A moderate christian view - The Golden Compass (2007) Discussion

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Reading_Rainbow 13 years ago

there isn't any anti christian stuff in the movie because it was all taken out. the book is SUPER anti christian. i love it.

I'm a homicidal maniac...they look like everyone else. - Wednesday Adams

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[–] Frostschaden 13 years ago

Isn't that a rather banal reason to like a book?

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[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] linus-hirschi 11 years ago

That would be a relevant question if it the book was anti-raw meat.

To be anti-christian is never banal.

peace kehd

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[–] DoctorFell 13 years ago

the archbishop of canterbury has proposed that the trilogy be taught in religion classes in school because it highlights the danger of putting dogma above simple faith. he read the books before making a public statement about them.
i believe that many of those who condemn the film on religious grounds havn't seen or read it, but are condemning it upon the assumptions of others.

trashing books is like the Special Olympics even if you win & burn them all you are still a retard.

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[–] externaltestaccount 13 years ago

This is why I respect the Church of England more than most Christian sects, they at least make an effort to think sometimes.

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[–] cmp_gr 12 years ago

I cannot understand all this about religion. I saw the film on a Saturday a few years ago and next morning I went to the church. As long as I was seeing the film, I did not think of the religion. As long as I was in the church, I did not think of the film. As simple as that.

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[–] morris45 12 years ago

Funny, I thought about religion right from the start.

- The daemons, which are an allegory to human soul (not religious soul, heaven, hell, etc).

- The Magisterium = The Vatican.

- Dust, parallel universes, could be about science, research and free thinking. Lord Asriel and Lyra are free thinkers. The Catholic Church has always been against such things, as they´ve always been against beliefs or research that may or may not prove the truthfulness of their fairy tales or the existence of their "god".

- The alethiometer, "the truth teller". Of course, the Magisterium is the only owner of the truth, just like the Vatican. So why let anyone else to have a glimpse of it?

- Finally, intercision. The process in which the human soul will be removed in order to "replace" it with the religious soul. It won´t matter if the subject at hand becomes a mindless person, what´s important is that he/she will no longer question the "truth".

Now, I´m sure there´s more, but it´s been a while since I read the book. So, the religious connections are pretty obvious, and I can see why some people appeared to be against it.

I thought it was a good movie, and I hope to see a faithful adaptation of the books sooner than later.

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[–] LuSiD 12 years ago

First, I have read the book and have watched the movie.

What you say could very well be true (it crossed my mind) but I don't see proof for it.

* If daemons were our souls then they're painted way too figurally (the concept of soul is also rather vague I guess not every Christian agrees on this or its existence). Not only in the movie. If they are our inner conscience then how come they fight with each other in book and movie? This happens on the same plain as the universe people are in.

* I don't understand how you can compare Magisterium with the Vatican either. Time-wise, it has a late medieval, golden age setting (fits). But the story takes part in two regions: the UK and Scandinavia / pole circle. Region-wise, if anything, the Magisterium is the protestant church or the templars.

* Also, how does the whole parallel universe aspect fit into this? The metaverse principle is a typical one from new age religions. Definitely not something from the Catholic church. You could see it as a metaphor (different religions = different universe, for example) but if I were to draw an analogy with the Catholic church I'd evade new age rhetoric. Dust, isn't well explained in the movie, but its only there on the north pole (this was explained in the book I don't remember the details) it could be a metaphor for ...

* The alethiometer might as well be a phone line to God, a psychedelic drug, or a metaphor for science. You have a point here regarding Vatican, but I'm then reminded during the time of the golden age the Vatican wasn't omnipresent in Europe. As stated, in the areas the movie takes place they weren't! Yes, they were in Ireland, the places where Roman language is spoken, but they weren't in Germany either. The followers or Luther, Calvinists, the Protestants, and the ancient Nordic religions. Those were dominant, and they weren't tolerant to Atheist or different religious points of view either. So that's more about religion's intolerance to different views (instead of specific about Catholic church)

* Intercision, reminded me of torture with brainwashing as a means to an end, or killing off someone's conscience.

* And who would Ms. Coulter be in this whole biblical story? The pope? Serafina Pekkala? That name the author got from a Finnish phone book if I remember correct. And Lyra is Jeanne d'Arc?

Here's the proof for all of the above: …

Right, I forgot, I don't have any proof whatsoever.

I think it is right to say Pullman was inspired by real-life. More specific, around the golden age and its issues. That's normal, even in fantasy, it has connections with the real-life, and we can point these out like you and I are doing. But to say it is 1:1 based on Catholic church? As if it is meant as an analogy? I remember when LOTR came out people were releasing Sauron with George W. Bush and Bill Gates. These people are seeing things which aren't there. They see 2 completely unrelated things, see similarities, and then somehow claim how one is an intended analogy or based upon the other. Without any proof whatsoever.

The people who claim not watching this movie (a fantasy movie, meant for children) because it conflicts with their religious beliefs (which are simply unproven) are unfortunately making a narrow-minded decision. I'm sure with a similar quality of argument I could argue any children movie to be unfit for a child. I can only thank my Christian parents for not being so narrow-minded when they were raising me.

I've been loving too much, caring too little -- TormentoR.

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[–] lainiewolfe-557-130058 12 years ago

a brilliant assessment and very astute commentary. some of the replies are frankly bordering on mental retardation. well done morris45.
there are a coupe other good posts mingled with the stiflingly boring and cliched morons who think their opinion is valid.

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[–] Pax_Romana_300 12 years ago

That is because you are a Christian, and thus do not think.

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[–] cmp_gr 12 years ago

So, you think that Christians do not think? I am a Christian too. Have you read my port Thu Sep 13 2012 02:13:07?
I doubt that Christians do not think. But I do not doubt that people writing such generalizations are jerks.

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[–] Pax_Romana_300 12 years ago

It was a joke. Christians don't think enough. If they did, they would realize their religion is a fairy tale made up by primitive man. It is a direct copy of other ancient religions, most notably Egyptian mythology. The only reason someone belongs to a particular reason is (for the most part) the religion of their parents. That is why we see certain religions flourish in different parts of the world. It has nothing to do with truth, it has to do with geography.

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[–] cmp_gr 12 years ago

From what you are writing, I can easily see that you have not the slightest idea what Christianity means. You just stick in the surface, but ignore the real meaning. It's OK.

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[–] Pax_Romana_300 12 years ago

The real meaning is to worship an imaginary creature so you won't be tortured for eternity by said all loving imaginary creature, correct?

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[–] cmp_gr 12 years ago

No, not at all. All you are writing has nothing to do with Christianity. Either study it, or live it. Don't try to argue on issues you have no idea of.

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[–] jesperlhansen 12 years ago

Are there really no other options? Cause I dont wanna live as a Christian, but I dont wanna study it either.... Where do I fit in? :(

However, do you know anything about Christianity? Do you how christianity survived this long? I mean come on, an god no one ever sees, feels or hears about.. You dont think its weird, that something like that has existed for 2000 years? I do.

I hate Christianity, because they are single minded, the writer above proves this by not being open to the possibility that, that god of his simply does not exist.. I dont care if he does exist, I dont care if he doesnt, I just hate majorities that believe that they are correct, no matter what, while selling themself as being a compasionate bunch..

That's my two cents.

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[–] Eloron 12 years ago

"I hate Christianity, because they are single minded, the writer above proves this by not being open to the possibility that, that god of his simply does not exist.."

I think almost all Christians have fought about the possibility of there isn't any God. However, I can not say that most atheists has fought with the tpossibility that there is a God, so who is the single minded ones???

"an god no one ever sees, feels or hears about.."

A perfect example of you being single minded. If you had put down any time doing some research you will know that your statement is completely false. Christians do see things, called visions, feel things(the touch of the Holy Spirit), and hear things(Miracles that happens for example), plus many hear when God speaks to them.
If you believe it is from God or not is irrelevant, but your statement is anyway completely wrong.

Since you think you are so smart, I have a question for you:
If what stands in the new testament was a lie, why did almost all the apostles(Jesus disciples), die an extremely horrible death, for something they knew was a lie? I have never heard of a large group of people, coming up with a lie, and then rather die for a lie they knew wasn't true, then to live by saying it was a lie when they had to choose.

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[–] Fluffis 12 years ago

I think almost all Christians have fought about the possibility of there isn't any God. However, I can not say that most atheists has fought with the tpossibility that there is a God, so who is the single minded ones???

Atheists have died fighting that battle - killed by the people who cannot accept that there is no god or whose power depends on people believing in a god.

People are born without a concept of a higher power beyond their mother and father. After that, society steps in and tries to sway you one way or another. Nobody is exempt from the internal struggle as to whether there is a god or not... nobody. Atheists have taken the road less traveled, because they have struggled with the notion of a god and found it lacking.

Since you think you are so smart, I have a question for you:
If what stands in the new testament was a lie, why did almost all the apostles(Jesus disciples), die an extremely horrible death, for something they knew was a lie? I have never heard of a large group of people, coming up with a lie, and then rather die for a lie they knew wasn't true, then to live by saying it was a lie when they had to choose.

Two words: Heaven's Gate.
39 people committed suicide (including the founder), because they thought it would grant them passage on a spaceship following the comet Hale-Bopp. Do you think everyone among them believed that right from the start?

It's something like mass hysteria. You believe, because other people around you believe, and because you get brainwashed (intentionally or not). It is, unfortunately, not all that rare.

Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

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[–] LuSiD 12 years ago

"Atheists have died fighting that battle - killed by the people who cannot accept that there is no god or whose power depends on people believing in a god."

The Atheism FAQ on Infidels.org states there's 2 schools of thought: strong Atheists believe there is no god, weak Atheists do not believe in god but do not firmly deny this. My own interpretation of this means that the 2nd group leans more towards agnosticism or even Christians who are open to atheism (not sure if there's a name for that). The group is significant in present society (in my country). My point here is that not every Atheist is literally as devoted as the most fundamental strong Atheist. Unfortunately admitting "I cannot rule it out" means to some " that's one I can convert to my club".

Anyway... what you describe isn't uncommon in societies.

*) We have a dominant belief system or culture.
*) We have an alternative which by itself does not harm. Possibly morally superior in ethical question. It opposes Group #1.
*) Group #1 feels threatened and uses fallacies to combat Group #2.

Example: the inquisition, exempting non-religious people from taking part in the community. The latter, well just imagine you are a Muslim living in India, a Christian living in Dubai, a Hindu living in Utah, or an Atheist living in 1600's of Italy.

Remember that Atheists and Atheism is a very small subset of Group #2. You had all kind of Christian religions who were in disagreement with the Vatican. You had witches who were practicing herbal medicine. You had gypsies who were reading hands, laying cards. You had scientists, Atheists. All kinds of Isms.

We still see Isms in conflict with each other every day. Religion-based are the most apparent. While they're arguably the most dumb because they cannot be proven yet the people who support them do so with the greatest zeal. They're not alone. The combat atheists endure is a variable in a place of oppression. It could also very well be that in an atheism-dominant society a religious belief would be forbidden.

Interesting movies on this subject: Idiocracy, Brave New World.

Your example (though I had not heard of it) is also striking because it touches the concept of cults (a cult is nothing more or less than a small religion; you can find the root of the word in anthropology), but self harming to its very existence!

Whereas if we look at our history of religions and cultures though it appears there's some kind of game of Risk going on. The native Americans have lost, the Scandinavian religions have lost, the witches have lost, the Irish have lost. And not only on religious grinds. We see this conflict also in language.

I've been loving too much, caring too little -- TormentoR.

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[–] Eloron 12 years ago

"Atheists have died fighting that battle - killed by the people who cannot accept that there is no god or whose power depends on people believing in a god."

How many have died for being none believers compare to being believers.
If we would compare how many Christians that have died for their faith compare to atheists for their, I'm sure there are many many times more that have died for their faith.
There are still prosecution in China and North Korea, and many many have lost their life for their faith.
In the Soviet Union when it existed, the same thing.
And in a lot of Islamic countries of course.

"People are born without a concept of a higher power beyond their mother and father. After that, society steps in and tries to sway you one way or another. Nobody is exempt from the internal struggle as to whether there is a god or not... nobody. Atheists have taken the road less traveled, because they have struggled with the notion of a god and found it lacking. "

Please tell me about your struggling.
A common answer I hear from none believers is that they don't want to believe, because then they must change their way of living. I seldom hear a none believers that really has studied religion and came to that conclusion.

"39 people committed suicide (including the founder), because they thought it would grant them passage on a spaceship following the comet Hale-Bopp. Do you think everyone among them believed that right from the start?"

Those that committed suicide was most likely not the same group that came up with the idea, my questions was about the founders, and they were not taking suicide, they just didn't want to deny Jesus.

A question, if evolution is true, and it favors believers, why should you fight the believers then, and if God exist, even less reason.

Fact: Believers(Not a specific religion), as a group lives longer then none believers in the same country(at least in the US).

Have you ever heard of the placebo effect? Our bodies are even programmed to solve problems itself when we believe that we will get better. So you can easily say we are programmed to believe

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[–] Fluffis 12 years ago

How many have died for being none believers compare to being believers.
If we would compare how many Christians that have died for their faith compare to atheists for their, I'm sure there are many many times more that have died for their faith.
There are still prosecution in China and North Korea, and many many have lost their life for their faith.
In the Soviet Union when it existed, the same thing.
And in a lot of Islamic countries of course.

How many of those were killed by atheists? How many of them were killed by other believers (even people who believe in the same god?

Atheists were killed by believers. Believers were killed by believers.

Please tell me about your struggling.
A common answer I hear from none believers is that they don't want to believe, because then they must change their way of living. I seldom hear a none believers that really has studied religion and came to that conclusion.

I was a Christian. I did all the things a Christian should. Religion is a mandatory subject in Swedish schools. So yeah; I've studied religion quite extensively. I realized over a period of time, that there was no answer to my prayers. Nobody answered.

It's safe to say that the majority of all atheists have been brought up in a (more or less) religious household - if you check historically, I'd say it's safe to say that they all did. Luckily, more and more of the ones born now, don't have to.

Those that committed suicide was most likely not the same group that came up with the idea, my questions was about the founders, and they were not taking suicide, they just didn't want to deny Jesus.

The Heaven's Gate founders were found among the dead.

A question, if evolution is true, and it favors believers, why should you fight the believers then, and if God exist, even less reason.

Why would it favour believers? Atheism is growing. More and more people are waking up, and realizing that there is no higher power.
They have to fight their way through thousands of years of religious indoctrination to wake up, but more people do every day.

Organized religion will not give up their power without a fight. It's as simple as that.

Fact: Believers(Not a specific religion), as a group lives longer then none believers in the same country(at least in the US).

Got any numbers to prove that?

Edit: Sweden, one of the most secular countries in the world, and a hotbed for growing atheism (membership in the Church of Sweden, has dropped nearly 25% in 30 years - and a fair few of the ones left, are only in it because they haven't thought of leaving), is in 8th place when it comes to life expectancy in the world. The US is at #40.

There's a little fact for ya...

Have you ever heard of the placebo effect? Our bodies are even programmed to solve problems itself when we believe that we will get better. So you can easily say we are programmed to believe

If we're told we will be cured, yes - by doctors, or organized religion. In that instance you're somewhat right; God is a placebo. It won't do anything for you, but when something good happens you still think it was the placebo that did it.

All that shows is that our evolved body is capable of so much more, than religion has ever let us think.

Bringing up the gullibility of the human mind, is not as strong an argument for religion as you may think.

Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

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[–] Eloron 12 years ago

I am myself from Sweden, however, I will continue to write in English since it is a English forum

"Atheists were killed by believers. Believers were killed by believers."

As I mentioned earlier, Atheist countries like China, have killed a lot of Christians because they didn't deny their faith, so Christians were killed by Atheist is also a true statement.

"I was a Christian. I did all the things a Christian should. Religion is a mandatory subject in Swedish schools. So yeah; I've studied religion quite extensively. I realized over a period of time, that there was no answer to my prayers. Nobody answered."

Christianity isn't about what you should or should not do, the only thing you should do as Christian as have Jesus as the lord, and then the rest on what you are doing is following as an effect of it.
Christianity was a subject in school until 1967, after that it was just a religion among many, and if I may say, the education were lacking when it came to teaching out. I can't say about your teacher, but I hardly learned anything in the school about Christianity.

I am however sad to hear you didn't got any answer when you prayed, it is always hard when that happens. They have ask around in the US how many have ever got a prayer answered, and 95% if I remember had at least once got a pray answered, however, not close to 95% there are believers, people have much easier to forget about God when they think they don't need him anymore. I am not in any way saying this is the case for you.

"It's safe to say that the majority of all atheists have been brought up in a (more or less) religious household - if you check historically, I'd say it's safe to say that they all did. Luckily, more and more of the ones born now, don't have to."

If I check history, then more or less, since more or less was believers, it was unlikely they didn't got raised by believers. But I would say this isn't the case anymore, I heard 7-10% in Sweden are Christians, maybe less, and I wouldn't say most atheist of today comes from christian homes. I only know one "real" atheist that came from a christian home.

" Fact: Believers(Not a specific religion), as a group lives longer then none believers in the same country(at least in the US).

Got any numbers to prove that?"

A danish program that was showed on TV was mentioning that, and that program was not made by religious peoples, they were just exploring the religions.
I have also heard about it elsewhere, and read about it on internet.

Just made a fast search on google, this is one of the sites,
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/LivingLonger/story?id=1242497
I only found pages that confirm that it is true, however, feel free to reply with an url if you find the opposite.

"God is a placebo"
Some things placebo can do, but not all, cancer is one of the things placebo has failed on, however, it is happening that cancer patience get cured from cancer buy Jesus without the doctor have any explanation. We have a new member in our church that got cured from MS by Jesus, and according to the doctors it has never happened in Europe before that someone with MS has stopped having it. She is a journalist and is now writing a book about all the miracles she has been through, and the good thing is that she always goes to the doctor to confirm that she is cured. I have heard her testimony, and if you are itnerested in hearing it yourself, I can try to get a mp3 file where she tells it and send it to you.

My cousin for example when he was very little had so bad sight that he would have very thick eye-glasses right at once, but my aunt and her husband prayed for his eyes and he then got perfect sight.

If you want some material to criticize, I would recommend the book "The heavenly man", it has a lot of miracles in it that can't be explained in any other way then either the author is lying, or there is a higher power. I choose to believe that he is telling the truth.

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[–] Fluffis 12 years ago

As I mentioned earlier, Atheist countries like China, have killed a lot of Christians because they didn't deny their faith, so Christians were killed by Atheist is also a true statement.

They weren't killed because of atheism - they were killed because of politics.
The Cultural Revolution was about making a break with the old ways - whether right or not.

Christianity isn't about what you should or should not do, the only thing you should do as Christian as have Jesus as the lord, and then the rest on what you are doing is following as an effect of it.
Christianity was a subject in school until 1967, after that it was just a religion among many, and if I may say, the education were lacking when it came to teaching out. I can't say about your teacher, but I hardly learned anything in the school about Christianity.

I am however sad to hear you didn't got any answer when you prayed, it is always hard when that happens. They have ask around in the US how many have ever got a prayer answered, and 95% if I remember had at least once got a pray answered, however, not close to 95% there are believers, people have much easier to forget about God when they think they don't need him anymore. I am not in any way saying this is the case for you.

Then you most likely had a bad teacher. It's as simple as that.

Drop the condescending attitude.

The reason I didn't get an answer is that there is nothing there to answer. It's as simple as that - and as beautiful as that. The world and the universe become infinitely bigger and more promising once you realize that - and when you realize that our destiny is our own to shape.

If I check history, then more or less, since more or less was believers, it was unlikely they didn't got raised by believers. But I would say this isn't the case anymore, I heard 7-10% in Sweden are Christians, maybe less, and I wouldn't say most atheist of today comes from christian homes. I only know one "real" atheist that came from a christian home.

About 70% of all Swedish are still members of the Church of Sweden. As for how many are practicing Christianity, I'd say it's probably about half that.

And I didn't say that they came specifically from Christian homes - I said religious.

Just made a fast search on google, this is one of the sites,
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/LivingLonger/story?id=1242497
I only found pages that confirm that it is true, however, feel free to reply with an url if you find the opposite.

Actually, that site seems to indicate that their healthy lifestyle is more likely to be responsible for their longer life-span (no smokes, coffee and such), which I would be inclined to agree with. A healthy body usually means a longer life. The rest is vague "experts say" and "there is evidence" - without providing any further information, whatsoever. And reference to one study which supports it. If there was any truth whatsoever to those claims, there would have been dozens - maybe hundreds.

This is what is called specious or spurious evidence. It doesn't in fact prove anything.

Some things placebo can do, but not all, cancer is one of the things placebo has failed on, however, it is happening that cancer patience get cured from cancer buy Jesus without the doctor have any explanation. We have a new member in our church that got cured from MS by Jesus, and according to the doctors it has never happened in Europe before that someone with MS has stopped having it. She is a journalist and is now writing a book about all the miracles she has been through, and the good thing is that she always goes to the doctor to confirm that she is cured. I have heard her testimony, and if you are itnerested in hearing it yourself, I can try to get a mp3 file where she tells it and send it to you.

Actually, we have no idea exactly how much the body is able to do, when enough will is applied. We're pushing the boundaries for it on an almost daily basis.
It is quite possible (though rare) for cancer to go into remission by itself - and not all cancer is chronic.

As for the MS journalist, I wouldn't get my hopes up. It is fairly common for MS to go into almost-full remission - to the point where it seems it is completely gone. It does, however always come back. Always. It may seem to be gone for days, weeks, months, years... but MS never goes away.

Anecdotal evidence is worthless. So are "testimonies".

My cousin for example when he was very little had so bad sight that he would have very thick eye-glasses right at once, but my aunt and her husband prayed for his eyes and he then got perfect sight.

Sure he did. As I said: Anecdotal evidence is worthless.

If you want some material to criticize, I would recommend the book "The heavenly man", it has a lot of miracles in it that can't be explained in any other way then either the author is lying, or there is a higher power. I choose to believe that he is telling the truth.

That's your prerogative - it's what's called "confirmation bias".

As long as there is no objective evidence of "miracles", then they're completely irrelevant.
The most likely scenario which would stop any explanation, is that he made it up - which means he is lying, or he just didn't understand what actually happened.

Miracles are proof of exactly nothing. And testimonies are anecdotal evidence - which, again, makes them worthless.

Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

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[–] j_money77 12 years ago

"If you want some material to criticize, I would recommend the book "The heavenly man", it has a lot of miracles in it that can't be explained in any other way then either the author is lying, or there is a higher power. I choose to believe that he is telling the truth. "

I seriously don't understand how people don't see the logical fallacy in automatically ascribing "unkonwn" events or "miracles" to the act of a higher power. If that's your view of god or God, then it's a constantly receding one. Just because you don't know how something works doesn't necessitate that it must have been done by a divine power. We used to not know why the sun rose and set as it does. We used to not understand where the rains came from. We used to know nothing about microorganisms and were ignorant as to the causes of a lot of illnesses and disease.

It's the most selfish, solopsistic and self-deluded view to think that just because you don't know something, it had to have been put in place by a higher power.

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[–] Fluffis 12 years ago

Yeah, it is a strange way of dealing with the world.

Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

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[–] Eloron 12 years ago

"I seriously don't understand how people don't see the logical fallacy in automatically ascribing "unkonwn" events or "miracles" to the act of a higher power. If that's your view of god or God, then it's a constantly receding one. Just because you don't know how something works doesn't necessitate that it must have been done by a divine power. We used to not know why the sun rose and set as it does. We used to not understand where the rains came from. We used to know nothing about microorganisms and were ignorant as to the causes of a lot of illnesses and disease.

It's the most selfish, solopsistic and self-deluded view to think that just because you don't know something, it had to have been put in place by a higher power."

You haven't read what happens in the book, and already you are answering that what happens isn't from God, but just something logical that we can't answer right now. Please read the book before you are saying something so stupid like that.

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[–] j_money77 12 years ago

"You haven't read what happens in the book, and already you are answering that what happens isn't from God, but just something logical that we can't answer right now. Please read the book before you are saying something so stupid like that."

Please clarify, just what book are you talking about? His Dark Materials, The Holy Bible or the Koran?, Because I've read all three. Notice also that I never said "what happens isn't form god, but just something logical that we can't answer right now," I said that it's selfish and deluded to assume anything that your knowledge can't grasp at the moment is a product of a divine power. There's a difference. Of course I don't think it's likely that a god is behind all of these things, but I didn't make a blanket statement saying it's impossible like you accused me of.

Cheers.

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[–] j_money77 12 years ago

My apologies Eloron, I had forgotten you were talking about the book "The Heavenly Man," let me clarify, I'm not criticizing the book specifically because I haven't, and will not, read it (I looked it up on Amazon... it looks like *beep* so I'm not going to spend my time reading it, sorry.)

I can't speak for this man's personal experiences, and wouldn't want to, but I will say that in my experience, most of these "miracles" people happen upon are hardly that miraculous to begin with and seem very selfish in context of all of the problems in the world.

For instance, it would be quite an insult to humanity if this god you believe in is willing to restore your cousin's eyesight but allowed more than 100,000 innocent children who never harmed anyone, to perish in Somolia due to famine last year, but that's a moral quandry supposing there is a god interested in human affairs to begin with, which there isn't proof of.

Anyway, my last post clarifies the misassumption you made about my previous posts.

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[–] Eloron 12 years ago

It is not always possible to understand why thing happens to innocent peoples, however, we can't, and shouldn't blame God for everything. For example in Somalia, if it wasn't so much corruption in the country, I am 100% sure that what happen last year would look completely different.

As for the "Heavenly Man", he escaped from the most secured prison in China and the government say it is a one man job.
He gave God credit for the escape(he described exactly how it happen in the book). And I'm pretty sure he would have taken credit for himself if it wasn't from God(atleast I would have :-) ).
However, it is just one of many miracles, he had for example not been eating or drinking for 73 days. If you do that yourself and survive, then I will be listening to what you have to say, until then, I stay firm with what I mentioned, either he is lying or there is a God! And he live as he teach so I see no reason why he would be lying, plus there is a lot of witnesses on the miracles in the book.

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[–] j_money77 12 years ago

Don't misunderstand me Eloron, I'm not blaming god, whose existence I don't see any evidence of, for atroscities in Somolia, I'm merely saying if there is a god interested in human affairs, especially one with the capability to intervene, and he chooses to help your cousin get rid of glasses, but not rescue more than 100K innocent children, he shouldn't be held in any moral esteem. In fact, any person with the capability to intervene (if you believe int he abrahamic god u believe he's omnipresent) it would cost him nothing to stop these atroscities, and would build a lot of goodwill and possibly bring in new believers, it'd be destructive not to. But these arguments are old, Epicurus laid it out more succintly than me many many years ago.

It's silly to give your god credit for good things, but absolve him of wrong doing for bad things... selective enforcement.

Anyway, your claims lack logic about "miracles," for instance, claiming something must have been divine intervention because a man "credits god" with something that happened to him. That does nothing to prove gods existence. As for claims of not drinking water for 73 days, of course I think he's lying, but if he isn't, that doesn't prove gods existence either.

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[–] Eloron 12 years ago

If he is not lying, and it is possible for a human to survive without food and drink for 73 days, please show me an atheist that has survived that long without food or water. I have heard another case where it was for 100 days(by another guy, also christian).

"it would cost him nothing to stop these atroscities, and would build a lot of goodwill and possibly bring in new believers"

Unfortunately this isn't true, I wish it were.
Before the tsunami There were close to none in Thailand that converted to Christianity, no matter how hard they tried, it is first after the tsunami there has been a revival there, and from 2007 there are more that becomes Christians then the population is growing.

When everything works perfectly in peoples lifes, peoples use to forget about God, and it is very often under a crisis that people becomes believers, so unfortunately peoples doesn't becomes Christians very often when they have the most reason to do so.

I have a questions, what is the smallest proof of Gods existence you would need for you to believe that He exist?

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[–] j_money77 12 years ago

I've never heard of such siliness, surviving for 100 days without water, but I'm not expert on the human body; If there is clear cut evidence of this happening, I'd be interested to see it.

Also, yes indeed it would buy the unproven god good will if he personally prevented atroscities from happening. Notice I said personally, not through some "coincidence" or instance withour proof that people call god.

Things are great in my life, and I'm not "forgetting" god, I simply reject superstition of all sorts. When I experience hard times, which I have, I don't turn to superstition any more than I do when times are great.

As for proof, I have an outstanding invitation for coffee at my house with the alleged god. It's well within his means to stop by, have a drink with me, and explain the world... thus far he hasn't taken me up on the offer, but if he does i'll become a believer.

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[–] nyshyguy84 12 years ago

U know its funny how u and other europeans seem to think europe and america equals the rest of the world. I got news to u as someone not from either places i can tell ya atheism isn't growing. Only in the west is atheism taken seriously and ur populations r not growing but shrinking due to lower birth rates while the religious majority outside the west r experiencing massive religious revivlas both christian and muslim with huge population booms to go with it. So when u say that atheism is growing i don't know what u r talking about. And yes the geo political dominance of european and american influence is alrady waining and will no doupt speell the end for whatever influence atheism may have on the world.

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[–] j_money77 12 years ago

I suspect atheism/freethinking/agnosticism/secularism will continue to grow in places where it's not persecuted or punishable by law (blasphemy laws.) It's definitely a slow process, but as we learn more about the world and knowledge becomes more abundant, superstitions of old will fall away.

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[–] nyshyguy84 12 years ago

As someone who has been to many countries and doesn't believe western secular thought and logic is the be all end all belief u make it out to be, I think u r full of urself. Such ways of thinking only show ur own narrow minded and eurocentric attitudes towards others beliefs and cultures. Religion isn't going anywhere. The western culture is more likely to die out over religion as ur populations continue to decline and ur governments take in more and more religious folks(myself included) who will not be bowing to any secular atheist thought police while living in the west.

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[–] j_money77 12 years ago

Just give it time friend, it won't happen overnight, but old superstitions always fade.

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[–] nyshyguy84 12 years ago

I can see the western media propaganda that is funded by zionists in israel have really done a number on u. And did u know the god is dead movement said the same thing back in the 70's. The god is dead movement is now dead. I mean rather then rambling on like an atheist fanatic about how religion will die soon maybe u can provide proof of western atheism spreading its tentacles outside the west cause i have lived in many countries and i ain't seein it. The world from what i can see especially after the events of the arab spring movement have if anything become even more religious.

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[–] j_money77 12 years ago

Guy, I can see we disagree on this point, but I don't know why you accuse me of being brainwashed by Western Propaganda or Zionists.

Also, I think you're confusing me with someone else, I've never made any comments about knowledge of a "god is dead," movement. I also said nothing about atheism "spreading out" from the West... I merely predicted that it's a matter of time before old superstitions fall away when confronted with reason and empiricism. In places where skepticism isn't punishable by law, it will grow.

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[–] Fluffis 12 years ago

I've started thinking that we're dealing with a troll. If someone mixes up atheism and zionism, then something is seriously wrong.

Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

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[–] nyshyguy84 12 years ago

Its not about being a troll when there is truth to it. Who funds virtually every western nations media and education system? And it is to the benefit of the zionist jewish elites in the world to encourage atheism. Majority of people in the world that resist them the most after all are religious folk. Of course they will try and deconvert people as it will weaken the resistance agains't them which prior to the arab spring they were attempting to do to the arab world by backing secular anti religious leaders.

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[–] Fluffis 12 years ago

I'm from Sweden.
We're just about the most secular country on the planet. We're pro-Palestine.

It's interesting to see how misinformed some people are.

I'm not going to be talking to you any more, because you're most likely a troll.

Bye!

Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

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[–] nyshyguy84 12 years ago

Being pro Palestine proves nothing. U can be anti Israel while still being brainwashed by those groups they fund. And Zionism is Atheistic in its idiology. So of course they would promote atheism as it fits there own idiology.

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[–] nyshyguy84 12 years ago

The arab spring has clearly proven ur opinion wrong.

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[–] Fluffis 12 years ago

Deny it all you want - that doesn't make it any less true (seriously; religions have been denying facts for centuries now. How are you guys not bored with it?). Younger generations are coming in touch with a world where the clergy aren't calling the shots. We're learning more about the universe every day, and none of it points to a higher power.

Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

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[–] nyshyguy84 12 years ago

Once again this is only occuring in the west. And as much as u and other white western racists like to think otherwise the west does not equal the rest of the world. Deal with it.

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[–] Fluffis 12 years ago

Racist? What the *beep*!

This has nothing to do with race, you ignoramus.

This is about outmoded belief systems which are proven wrong with every scientific advance we make.

Maybe you should take a look at the world without your rose-coloured glasses on, and see that even the most backward theocratic nations are spawning people who value knowledge and facts above religion. And guess what: you can't kill the truth, no matter how hard you try.

Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

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[–] nyshyguy84 12 years ago

Before atheism was even a word it was us so called inferior Muslim people that made modern science and innovation what it is. Read a damn history book why don't u! The golden age of science and technology occured in the Islamic world not the secular atheist west. And thanks to the arab spring the west will soon be outclassed again by islamic scientific ingenuity Insh'Allah! You'll see give it some time.

And just so u know i have lived in Birmingham UK for over 10 yrs and despite what u claim about ur so called superior western education i have not fallen out with my religion nor have any of my friends just because we live in a secular godless society that promotes religion as outdated. If anything it makes our faith stronger. U and other white westerners will learn someday that not everyone is gonna think like u and interpret their beliefs/disbeliefs like u either.

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[–] Fluffis 12 years ago

I never even mentioned Muslims, let alone said anything derogatory about Muslims as people. I despise all religions equally, but that does not stretch to the individual humans. I have several Muslim friends and co-workers, who are among the nicest people I know. I will have nothing to do with their religion, and they respect that, but I really like spending time with them as people.

So before you go calling someone a racist, you may want to examine your own prejudice. You're the only one being a racist here.

And by the way:

I'm not white.

Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

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[–] nyshyguy84 12 years ago

I very much doupt ur not white. Almost all the atheists ive met who were not from east asia were white western people. So sorry if i find that hard to believe. And u clearly r trying to change the subject as u clearly did not like hearing me speak the truth. Again read a page from history and see for yourself all the scientific innovations us so called inferior religious folk have given to this world. U can deny it all u like but history doesn't lie.

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[–] j_money77 12 years ago

I have no problems with anyone not thinking like me, it's pretty expected. I also never talked about superior western education. As for the Islamic golden age of science, I would be thrilled if Islamic leaders started putting money behind science again.

I also never saw anything about religious people being inferior, who would express such a sentiment? Would you shun the work of Johann Bach simply because he was religious? Seems like you're boxing with shadows here, I see a lot of counterpoints you make to points nobody tried to make in the first place.

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[–] Fluffis 12 years ago

I just had to take a look back at this topic, because I was afraid that I had read the guy wrong, but your sentence:

Seems like you're boxing with shadows here, I see a lot of counterpoints you make to points nobody tried to make in the first place.

It really hits the nail on the head. The guy is either a troll, or seriously misguided.

Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] botev1921 12 years ago

I don't get people like you. Can't you just enjoy this piece of art without some moronic religious discussions coming into play? It's the 21st century and religion is only for the weak as it is pretty obvious people finally discovered that religion is created to control the masses and has nothing spiritual or divine in the church!

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[–] nyshyguy84 12 years ago

Yes as typical with u westerners when someone or something doesn't cater to ur way of thinking they r considered weak and inferior to u. And u western atheists wonder why so much of the world hates u and ur arrogant way of thinking. And i wasn't the one who started this debate so try again.

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[–] j_money77 12 years ago

And just who has accused u of inferiority?

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[–] docryanov 12 years ago

You can label us whatever you want, it doesn't really matter. What does matter is that all religions claiming things about reality based on no evidence and strictly on faith is quite frankly idiotic. Do I think you're an idiot? Yes. You willingly choose to be ignorant. That's idiotic.

So label me as you well, and screw off you religious ball of pig hair.

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[–] docryanov 11 years ago

I can't believe I ever wrote such hateful filth. Forgive me for my insolence, it is indeed a wrong thing everything I said above.

I'm sorry.

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[–] ronnet_2 12 years ago

'and in general felt quite cliché'

I just watched the movie after reading the book. I have to say that this is the fault of the team that made the film.

While I wasn't blown away by the book it did have an edge to it. They made all characters so much nicer and because of it they had to rewrite everyone's backstory and simplified it and made it very cliché.

For example Iorek Byrnison wasn't defeated by another bear and had his kingdom stolen. He murdered another bear. The same goes for a lot of other characters and the mainstory as well and it makes the whole thing unoriginal. And if anything then the book is very original.

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