MovieChat Forums > In My Father's Den (2004) Discussion > am I right with the timeline? *Spoilers*

am I right with the timeline? Spoilers

posted 19 years ago by iamsam103
34 replies | jump to latest

Ok, forgive me but I just watched this film very quietly (parents asleep nextdoor) and won't have another chance to watch it again...so am i right with this timeline?

- Paul and his mum find thier dad / husband having sex with Paul's girlfriend.
- Mother shoots herself
- Paul runs away, abandoning Richard (brother)

- Paul comes back, reunites with Richard and his family, gives Rich's son a camera.
- Befriends Celia etc
- Richard's son has a crush on Celia and takes photos with the camera Paul gave him.
- The pictures taken are found by Richard's wife, making her think Richard is having an affair.
- Richard brings Celia back to his house, wife pushes her in rage...still thinking that Richard is having an affair when in actual fact she is Richard's half sister.
- Richard covers up the accidental murder
- Paul confronts Richard with gun about it (Richard tells him everything)
- Paul tells the police ???
- Richard is arrested.
- Paul burns down his house and den.

Am i mostly right with that? the main question I'm asking is HOW did Paul find out it was Richard (and therefore confront him with the gun). If someone could correct or copy and add to my timeline, I would be deeply greatful.

I thought it was a very good film from what I saw and would like to know a better understanding of the story.

thanks.

[–] taita 19 years ago

First question is "who is Richard?".
Andrew is the name of the brother
Other than that pretty much on the mark although I think it was the Son Jonathan who spilt the beans to the police.

[–] iamsam103 19 years ago

ah ok thanks...for some reason i thought the brother was called Richard...hmph

[–] MrsCarter 19 years ago

Paul realises his brother was involved with Celia's disappearance cos Jonathon shows him her backpack which Andrew had hidden in the worm farm. Paul doesn't know for sure what's happened so he confronts Andrew with the shotgun to find out.

You did bloody well with the time frame after only one viewing. It's a bit tricksy but it's well worth it for such a brilliant film.

Hope I was of some use??

[–] hppg 19 years ago

Seems to be what I got too, except for the name of the brother. Nice timeline. I really liked the film.

[–] iamsam103 19 years ago

yeah....sorry about the name...I have no idea why when posting this thread that I thought it was Richard...ah well, thanks for the replies! :D

[–] popisdead7 19 years ago

I watched it for the 2nd time last night and your timeline looks right i think.

What i found a bit clumsy was the brief shot of Jonathan developing photos of Celia just before Paul gives him the camera. I must have been confused by that first time since it would've appeared to be the same scene. I was also unsure as to when Jonathan became a bit obsessed with her - i guess it was when he saw her changing after she was out in the rain with Paul.

[–] emma_dee24 19 years ago

I got the impression that Jonathon already had a camera - Paul was just giving him a better one. And I think he was a bit obsessed with her before Paul even came back. Weren't the first photos he took of her taken before she even met Paul?

God, I have to watch it again now. :-)

[–] natrlbornthrllr-2 19 years ago

I just caught a screening of this at SXSW and loved it, though I do have one question. What did Celia need convincing about, that she had to go back to Andrew's house with him? Initially I thought she was under the impression that Paul was her father (due to Paul's "you're not the first person to think that about their parents" comment during the rain storm, in response to Celia's question of "what did you ever see in my mom?"). The whole ordeal with her finding the picture also gave me this idea. So, I thought that Andrew came along and told her that Paul wasn't really her father, but rather her half-brother. She didn't fully believe him, and went back to the house to see the will so she could be convinced.

That's the impression I'd gotten from all of the events. However, during the last scene of the movie, Paul and Celia are talking for the last time (this is before Andrew ever comes along to tell her whatever it was that he told her that caused her to go back to his house in search of proof). During their conversation, Celia asks something to the effect of, "so you knew that your father and my mother..." to which Paul replies, "yes, but I never knew about you."

So my question is this: when and how did Celia find out that Paul's father was actually her father? And part two: if she already knew about and believed that Paul's father was her father, what did Andrew come along to tell her (and subsequently take her back to his house to prove by showing her the will)?

Thanks in advance.

-JP

[–] krisha 19 years ago

Hallo natrlbornthrllrs-2!

Thank you very much for your question. This is exactly the question that has nearly driven me crazy for the last 2 weeks (I have seen the DVD 5-6 times without finding an answer). Who was the one who told Celia about her real parents and when? It couldn't be Paul, because in the very last scene of the film (last meeting between Paul and Celia), she knew it already. Celia asks Paul "so you knew that your father and my mom...". But it wasn't Paul who had told her about this, because we see the whole scene from beginning to end without any similar remark from his side. So she even must have known about this fact earlier!
And what was "the whole truth" that Andrew told her after her last meeting with Paul? Indeed, there was no more truth left to tell her, because at that time she knew the truth already. Appearently, she didn't need any proof at that time.

Is this maybe a mistake in the plot? A have already thought of writing to the film director. Ca anybody help ratrlbornthrllrs-2 and me? I would be very grateful.

Another question: Is there really a hint to a incest relationship between Andrew and his mother in the beginning of the film (bedroom, door closed)? This would explain Andrew's hate for his father.

Thank you, Krisha

[–] cyantoast 19 years ago

I thought it was Celia's mom that told her the story.
Celia found the picture in Paul's wallet, and knew it was herself, and that her mother had the same picture.
So when her mother found that Celia knew something, Celia asked if Paul was her father, and then her mother responded "I wish it were that simple" and then there was a jump cut. So then she goes over to Paul's and asks if he knew, to which he says that he knew about everything except her.

As for what Andrew told Celia to get her to his house, I'm not sure on that either. I'm kind of curious.

And I wonder, what would have happened if Celia didn't go back to Andrew's house; would she have died anyway? 'Cause obviously Andrew didn't think highly of Celia to begin with.

[–] krisha 19 years ago

to justablinkgrl:
At first, I also thought that Celia's mom had told her. But I had to change my mind. You are right, after the scene with Jax ("I wish it were that simple")there is a jump cut. But it leads to the scene where Celia quarrels with Paul about the photo and then throws it into the fire. In this scene, she still thinks that Paul is here father - that is a least how I interpret her words; I have some difficulties to understand her New Zealand accent (my native tongue is German).

I'm still not quite convinced...

Thank you
Krisha

[–] natrlbornthrllr-2 19 years ago

Yeah, that was the only explanation that I could've come up with (that her mother told her during that scene)...but it still leaves us with the question of what exactly it was that Andrew had to "prove" by showing her the will. I also got a "you're my father and you didn't tell me" vibe from the confrontation between Celia and Paul in front of the fire. I wish the final scene of the movie would've gone a bit differently (or at the very least, left out that one line that created so many unanswered questions).

-JP

[–] trixiaria 19 years ago

I definately think her mum told her..... and thats why she was so angry with Paul, because he KNEW they were family.......
Andrew had to prove that his father had left her a 3rd of his estate, she insited on seeing the will....which then led to her demise...
hope this helps

[–] johnconfined 19 years ago

hey krisha,

i think most points here have been touched on aside from the incest one. i don't think that there is any actual incest taking place in the film but this does serve to be an obvious reference to the oedipus complex.

andrew has an un-natural love for his mother which he is unwilling to share as we see with the door being closed and more blatently his future choice of wife.

i think andrew's hate for his father, and to some extent paul, comes from the fact that andrew knew what his father was capable of and paul abandoned andrew when he left.

hope that helps.

Jx

[–] krisha 19 years ago

Hey Jx,

good explanation, thanks! Maybe it is the film's purpose to leave you in doubt with the question whether there was really an incest or only an oedipus complex. I think that the plot is so strong because you always have different possibilities to decide how it might have been. The film plays with some vague ideas and gives you a lot of freedom for your interpretation. I think this is part of the special atmosphere the film creates (I have never seen a thriller that leaves you alone with so many vague hints and "loose ends"). I guess that's why the film is so brilliant. It gives you a lot to think about.

Krisha

[–] brissiemum2 19 years ago

I watched this film last night and agree that the only possibility is that the mother told Celia after she found the photo and was looking through her own baby album. Can't see how it could be any other way.

The question that has been annoying me is this: Andrew's wife pushed Celia over the balcony rail. Right? So why then is she not being carted off with the police as well as Andrew? We see Andrew being hauled into the police car and she is upstairs with her son. So did the police not know the full story? I'm slightly confused!

[–] krisha 19 years ago

Hi brissiemum2,

this question is answered in the director's commentary on the DVD / official film website: Brad McGann says that Andrew has taken the blame for Celia's killing because he wanted to protect his wife and son. This shows that the family is still very important for him; he saves them from the police inquirement.

Krisha

[–] brissiemum2 19 years ago

Oh thanks for that. I haven't bothered with the director's commentary yet. Perhaps I should! At least it explains that whole scene for me now!

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] Auber 19 years ago

Your timeline sounds accurate, but personally I am a bit confused about the part where Celia compares the picture she got out of Paul's wallet with the one in the family album. When she sees that they are the same and the baby in the picture is her she storms out. Next scene shows here crying in her room and her mum coming in. But it feels like the scene where she visits Paul while he is out and burning leaves happens before the bedroom scene. I am not quite sure because I can barely hear what she is saying, I can only discern every fifth word or so. I don't understand why there are no subs out there, either to download or on DVD. It sucks!
But anyway, does anyone else feels that the screaming scene comes before crying scene?

[–] brissiemum2 19 years ago

No, I didn't. I thought that the mother told her the whole truth of who her father was and then she went to Paul and confronted him....that he must have known that they were half-siblings. In fact, I think she even says something along the lines him knowing who her father was, doens't she? She had to have known that from her mother. At least, that is how I interpreted it anywaay.

[–] krisha 19 years ago

I also think the scene with Celia and Jackie comes before the scene with Celia and Paul (in the film these scenes are shown in this order).
When Celia talks to her mother, she asks: "Is he my father?" Jackie answers:
"I wish it were that simple". So I guess she tells her the truth.

[–] sn-sims 19 years ago

Yes I agree Jackie is the one that tells Celia everything, and she goes with Andrew to be convinced of the will, That is what he is looking for when Penny pushes her.

But what I cannot figure out and still havent figured is when does Paul finally realize that Celia is his fathers child. Is it when he sees her birth certificate? but to me it does not say enough to emply who the father is, or when he realizes Jackie is the women holding the baby in the picture that his dad has, how could he instantly think that this is his fathers child It could be thinking his fathers grandchild because he hasnt even remembered of his father and Jackie at this time and when he goes to confront Jackie at the meat market about the picture of Celia, he says the date is 8 months after I left, which could emply that he thinks he is the father, because he doesnt remember about his father and Jackie until Andrew reminds him at the river, and by this time Celia is already gone. So how can he think that Celia is his fathers child. Also when he tells her your not the first to think that of your parents that tells me he's talking of him and Jackie, and she catches that and gives him this look and says you would tell me if you knew something right? But when hes burning leaves she ask so you knew about my mum and your father and he replies yes but I didnt know about you. How could he know, He didnt remember until Andrew reminded him. That is what puzzles me greatly.

Could someone please clarify this for me, before I go crazy trying to figure it out.

[–] krisha 19 years ago

to sn-sims:

you said: "because he doesnt remember about his father and Jackie until Andrew reminds him at the river..."

I don't think this is correct. I think that Paul remembers the story of his father and Jackie from the very beginning (it is the reason why he left the small town!), but the spectator of the film is only told about this horrible event in the past at the time when Andrew confronts Paul with it at the river.
I guess that Paul knows more than the spectator, who discovers the whole truth only shortly before the end of the film. It is the first time that Andrew and Paul talk about their past, but Paul knew it much earlier than Andrew. (Andrew said: I only discovered it when I read the will, ... you see how far back I was!)
Another reason why I believe Paul remembers the story of his father and Jackie right from his arrival in the town: He says to Jackie in the beginning: "I was terrified of seeing you..."

[–] sn-sims 19 years ago

Krisha,

Yes you're correct after watching it a few mores times I realized it was right there in front of me, because when he was comming to his dads house for the first time since he had been gone, theres the scene where he's sitting on the front porch remembering when he left and Andrew is yelling Paul dont leave.
Okay know that I got that, maybe you or someone can help me with this.

When Celia finds the baby picture in Pauls wallet and compares it to a picture at home her mom sees her and talks with her in the room, saying I wish it were that simple. I'm thinking she tells Celia that Pauls dad is her Dad, but right after she goes to Pauls house when he's burning leaves, very upset and asks him did you know? Was I like the girl in the photo, someone you could just pickup and throw away. How do you live with yourself ? As if she thinking Paul is her dad still. Then at the end when he gives her the ticket to Spain , she asks did you know about my mum and your dad and he replies, yes but I did'nt know about you, she says why didnt you just tell me and he says I didnt know how. So did her mom tell her or not and why is it mixed up like that.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] niggyz 19 years ago

I was under the impression that Andrew told Celia who her real father was?
She was just angry at Paul for not letting her in. Throughout the movie she is play acting an adult (when she interviews Paul at the beginning, dripping candle wax on to her boyfriend etc.) So it's a real slap in the face for her to find out that the one person who she felt on equal terms with her was still protecting her from info she had a right to know?

Then they went to Andrew's house because she wanted 'proof' as in she wanted to see the will bequething her money.

About the incest debate: Andrew is disturbed when he sees the photos that his son has surrepticiously taken of Celia. This is fatherly concern for his son stalking a young girl and the fact that he knows of Celia's paternity and therefore potential incest. Perhaps he reacts in such a detatched way because of his own experience with his mother?

I don't actually think holds much water though. The screenplay is based on a NZ novel. In NZ there is the common understanding "the good keen bloke." He's basically a media-created Southern rural man that is wary of emotional involvement, women, cities etc. A lot of our advertising and family values are based around this. I think the thing with the mother was just to show how Andrew is a bit of an outsider. He's not working away on a tractor with his father as other boys from the rural South are supposed to be doing.

[–] dogsgowoof 19 years ago

I've just watched this along with my parents and the thing we were saying at the end is "Eh?".

I got the final premise that they were half brother and sister but unless it was cut out in the UK version it's not stated how Celia finds out.

The DVD we got was a proper legit rental but the sound was appalling and there was no subtitles which, in my opinion, went against the film (or the production of it rather). It looked and sounded as though they had released a pirate/pre final edit.

Now, my folks don't like films that jump about too much, we like films which go a-b-c-d-e-f, and not a-f-d-e-b-c. The only film i would rate as bad as this is that Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind (with Jim Carey).......

Unfortunately i think the acting was let down. As i've stated to someone else on this board i didn't get why Andrews missus didn't get carted away (except that Andrew only told Paul about it, yet Jonathan believed it to be his father).

Also, is it common in New Zealand for potential murder suspects to be left to wander about all over freely? That people who commit GBH aren't charged and dad's go round shagging their son's girlfriends? :)

[–] isabella705 19 years ago

I've just read your post and the thing I was saying at the end was "Eh?".

I thought this film was wonderfully acted, and the way the story was unveiled was essential in giving the film its impact. If they told you everything sequentially, what would be the point? No suspense, etc.

This simply follows the proper structure of a tragedy... a good film should make you think and reflect, if you are looking purely for entertainment or 'a-b-c-d-e-f' structure, stick to the straightforward blockbusters that noone will consider a fantastic film in 10 years time...

And in the book, there are people watching Paul's movements etc after the murder, a policeman even monitors him at his house the night following the discovery of Celia's body. But then they determine that it was impossible for him to have murdered her, due to witness testimonies...

Anyway, its a wonderful film, and NZ is a relatively safe and moral country, and things like this definitely aren't common. :)

[–] Nirelia 19 years ago

Just an addition to this line of thought and please correct me if I'm wrong as I haven't seen this movie in a couple of years now.

I don't think that Paul was ever confused as to Celia's paternity since he and Jax never actually had sex.

Can anyone confirm?

Thanx.
:)

[–] adventurous 19 years ago

Re: am I right with the timeline? *Spoilers*
by - natrlbornthrllr-2 on Sat Mar 18 2006 00:15:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just caught a screening of this at SXSW and loved it, though I do have one question. What did Celia need convincing about, that she had to go back to Andrew's house with him? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought Celia needed convincing to go over to Paul's, not Andrew's, house (remember the police stated that Paul had called her, but that she really didn't want to go over to his house the last time before she disappeared). I think Celia was too hurt and embarrassed to face Paul after mom tells her the truth. Paul asks her to come to his house that day because he wants to give her the airline ticket inside the atlas.

[–] Susan-Thomas-1 19 years ago

I was quite clear about this film and following everything OK (though I am not denying you need to concentrate!) EXCEPT for the last scene between Celia and Paul when he is reading her short story in the paper. Who knew what when??? The acknowledged facts between the characters in this scene seem to throw out the necessity of the tragedy: at the end of this scene, Celia walks off, carrying the atlas, and we know that she will encounter Andrew, who says he tells her the whole truth because it's time someone did - BUT, she KNOWS according to this last scene, which just jars. Did anyone else feel this scene just confuses issues, which were already complex, but logical. One theory - this is a dream sequence scene that Paul wished HAD happened. NB Celia has no facial injuries in this scene. Any ideas?
By the way,for Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind - follow Kate Winslet's hair colour! And pay attention!

[–] adventurous 19 years ago

Okay, after viewing the dvd again, I think I finally have it all down. Paul and Jax do not actually have sex (he tells her there are parts of him no one can have), so Paul knows Celia is not his child. Paul knows Celia is his father's child after he sees the re-issue of the birth certificate. So when Celia comes to interview Paul and she says, "I'm Celia", he knows this is his sister. Celia finds out Paul is her brother when she asks her mum if he is her father. Her mum says, "If only it were that simple." The reason Celia goes back to Andrew's house is to view the will because he has told her of her inheritance and she wants proof. The only still confusing dialog is the flashback when Paul is outside burning leaves. Celia knows at this point Paul is her brother but the dialog is intentionally ambiguous for the sake of keeping the audience guessing. The final scene of the film is a flashback. Some time has passed since Paul and Celia have seen one another, giving time for her cuts and bruises to heal. We know this because Paul told her at the river to leave him alone. Paul had to e-mail Celia, who was then reluctant to come to his house, so he could give her the plane ticket. Then they discuss Jax with Paul's dad. It is all out in the open. Celia leaves Paul with the kiss saying, "Adios, brother".

[–] parasite31 19 years ago

i have got a few questions...

who is older paul or andrew...?

paul couldnt have known that celia was not his child and also the notion that he didnt have sex with jax is not plausible...because he was in the meat shop asking jax about it (showing a picture of celia and claiming it was 8 months after he left)....so there are two possibilities....
1. he had an inquisition that celia might be his sister and therefore went to clarify with jax and got to know SOMEHOW that she was indeed....
2. he wanted to know if he was the father of celia and figured he was and later SOMEHOW in the movie he found out that celia is his sister...

Unless he knew that when he had sex with jax , she was on the pill or something and nothing could have happened (they both knew this)...and knew that celia must be his sister. Also the fact that jax didnt attempt to explain to him otherwise in the meat shop suggests that celia must be his sister.

about the door closing scene...who is on the mother's lap, paul or andrew...and who closes the door...who was looking into the door that someone had to close it....and personally i dont think there was any incest...just a weird attraction from andrew towards his mother...did andrew marry his wife because she looked like his mother or because paul had all the attention from mom...