MovieChat Forums > Serenity (2005) Discussion > Kinda ruins re-watching the series for m...

Kinda ruins re-watching the series for me.

posted 8 years ago by gory_reer
22 replies | jump to latest

Coziness probably isn't everyone's favorite attribute of the series but I found the Firefly "family" remaining intact to the end rather endearing. Very few shows survive their entire run without killing off someone or other for the sake of a shock... sadly that's what the movie resorts to, cutting down both Wash & Book for little reason other than to say "this predicament is pretty dark & dangerous".

The light-hearted interactions of the series are sort of spoiled knowing that 2 likeable characters will ultimately be sacrificed just to make the movie more tense. Zoë's overtly cold (even for her) response to losing her Husband devalues their arc throughout the show.

I also didn't like finding out the source of the Reavers- the "mysterious, journeys to the edge of space" ambiguity made for far more enjoyment than the same old "scientific blunder". I like to pretend Whedon hadn't decided on that backstory until writing the film.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

As a fan of Whedon, I knew the family would not remain intact for long.

While Wash's death was most definitely in the "this predicament is pretty dark & dangerous" territory, Book's death does serve a purpose. It's the final push that Mal needs to get him to strike back at the Alliance in a big way.

Zoë's overtly cold response to losing her Husband devalues their arc throughout the show.

Not at all. It's perfectly in character. She's a soldier and resorted to violence. The scene where she goes off on the Reavers symbolizes her heartbreak. She takes it out on those who took her husband from her. Plus, don't forget, she practically had to be dragged away from Wash's body.

Let's be bad guys.

[–] ChristopherSolomon 8 years ago

Not at all. It's perfectly in character. She's a soldier and resorted to violence. The scene where she goes off on the Reavers symbolizes her heartbreak. She takes it out on those who took her husband from her.

Agree completely. Not saying that the OP is sexist (not trying to cause a flame war here) but the perception about Zoe being cold regarding Wash's death, which is a criticism I've heard before, has alot to do with her being a woman. Plenty of times in shows/movies when a male warrior, soldier or fighter of some kind loses a girlfriend or wife they react with stoicism and a driven desire for vengeance bordering on a deathwish. They are never criticized for being cold and emotionally detached from their lover because that's seen as an acceptable way for a strong male character to behave.

[–] gory_reer 8 years ago

Like I said, I'm gutted the coziness I found in the show is somewhat shattered. The Zoe/Wash relationship no longer warms me much knowing he dies and we don't get to witness anymuch anguish from her, mainly due to so little time being devoted to her response: the movie has to push on with the plot I guess, so onward she goes through the motions with her expression rather frozen for the remaining duration (even at his grave!). We witness more dejection from Mal upon Book's death and the prospects of Inara leaving... and yes, lemme try and bury any possible sexism insinuations by saying I'd have expected Wash to be far more outwardly sorrowful in the reverse situation.

Considering most fans will have enjoyed Zoe as a rather austere soldier throughout the series I doubt anyone would rather she completely break down blubbering (though I was ready to do so!) but such a non-response, getting on with the task at hand and receiving very little focus? It isn't just Zoe though: the entire movie brushes his death aside too swiftly for my liking.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

They are in the middle of a siege. There's no time to mourn if they want to survive. Zoe's a soldier. You have to bury that in the middle of a war zone.

You are sin.

[–] gory_reer 8 years ago

I wouldn't argue against it's plausibility, I just don't LIKE what seems a huge shift in tone from the show to the movie. As they end up "in the middle of a siege" I think it would have been difficult to maintain the show's mood... that's why I wish that the film never happened at all (or at least I hadn't watched it). The two formats clash for me... guess I should've considered that prior to watching.

Some might feel it demonstrates an impressive strength of character from Zoe for her to maintain COMPLETE composure and still perform as functionally as ever, I (and apparently others) don't like that she seems no more stirred after his death than before: she's still wearing her "slightly concerned face".

Don't think I'm loyal to any TV shows where we spend substantial time with an equivalent couple and the woman dies instead so doubt I've been more lenient (embracing even) of a cold male response to the death of their loved one. Even though it's certainly a possible reason for some of the criticisms aimed at Zoe, I don't think expecting stereotypical, overtly "male"/"female" reactions is likely for many/any fans of the show who've been enjoying the couple's dynamic for 14 episodes (this paragraph isn't aimed at you, PreachCaleb).

[–] wintersorg 8 years ago

Some might feel it demonstrates an impressive strength of character from Zoe for her to maintain COMPLETE composure and still perform as functionally as ever, I (and apparently others) don't like that she seems no more stirred after his death than before: she's still wearing her "slightly concerned face".

But she wasn't functional at all! when the reavers are getting in through the door she goes rampage over them getting on the way of Jayne's line of fire and also she get's a slash in her back. That was reckless, completely out of her normal self. That was a mourning-deathwish-revenge state of mind.

As for Mal's reaction I agree at some point... but let's remember that he treats all the members of his crew has a... crew! not preciselly "friends" or "family". He is a soldier too, death is no stranger to him. And that's how he expresses his emotions, as a solder, as a captain. Damn! he can't even tell something nice to the woman he loves! he always keeps his captain-leader posture.

And finally, yes, the movie seems a little forced compared to the show... but to accomplish such a little change it's a great deal(meaning that it could have been easily a lot worse). This was a movie made to give a closure to a show that was cancelled before even season 1 ended, with a lot of character/storyline development open and finally left to be closed in ONE movie. That's quite a challenge. And I think Joss Whedon and company made it trought pretty damn well with what they had.

[–] gory_reer 8 years ago

Oh there's no doubt Mal always attempts to maintain his stoic "captain" demeanor, that was kinda my point: despite his soldier's composure I felt I saw MORE emotion (dejection was my previous choice of word) from Mal knowing Inara is leaving and upon Book's death than I did from Zoe upon her husband's death!

I quite like your interpretation of her missteps in that gunfight as evidence of her distress, whereas I kinda interpreted those incidents the same as I do Wash's death: mere devices to increase the tension. To satisfy the more cynical of movie audience members some characters "have" to die/get injured or else said cynics won't buy into the magnitude of the situation.

[–] NVDan 8 years ago

I felt I saw MORE emotion (dejection was my previous choice of word) from Mal knowing Inara is leaving and upon Book's death than I did from Zoe upon her husband's death!

Zoe looks pretty emotional to me.
https://youtu.be/BnnCQlp2msk?t=2m29s

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Sorry, sometimes my wife forgets that she is not an alien from outer space.

[–] gory_reer 8 years ago

A bit of SHOCK just as it happens? You're not really surprised that doesn't satisfy some viewers, are you?

[–] NVDan 8 years ago

A bit of SHOCK just as it happens? You're not really surprised that doesn't satisfy some viewers, are you?

To be honest, I'm really surprised anyone would call her reaction "a bit of SHOCK". Feel free to share with us Mal's more emotional response to Shepherd Book's death. I'm really curious to see what you consider to be an emotional response.

___
Sorry, sometimes my wife forgets that she is not an alien from outer space.

[–] gory_reer 8 years ago

I'm not comparing their immediate reactions to either incident, you reckon Mal isn't visibly more emotionally affected, more despondent after Book's death (perhaps due to that occurring earlier and being less brushed past by the film) than Zoe is post-Wash's death? I wish I saw it that way (though I still wouldn't be able to get over the film's different tone).

[–] NVDan 8 years ago

I'm not comparing their immediate reactions to either incident...

So you're no longer claiming Zoe's emotional reaction was merely shock? I suppose that's progress. It's funny, though. In this thread you've posted, "Zoë's overtly cold (even for her) response to losing her Husband devalues their arc throughout the show" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379786/board/nest/259071602?d=259071602#259071602) and "The Zoe/Wash relationship no longer warms me much knowing he dies and we don't get to witness anymuch anguish from her..." (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379786/board/nest/259071602?d=261430116#261430116). It sure sounds like you were claiming no emotional response from Zoe. As wintersong pointed out, "But she wasn't functional at all! when the reavers are getting in through the door she goes rampage over them getting on the way of Jayne's line of fire and also she get's a slash in her back. That was reckless, completely out of her normal self. That was a mourning-deathwish-revenge state of mind." (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379786/board/nest/259071602?d=262874650#262874650)

...you reckon Mal isn't visibly more emotionally affected, more despondent after Book's death (perhaps due to that occurring earlier and being less brushed past by the film) than Zoe is post-Wash's death?

Yes, I reckon Zoe pleading with Wash to get up when he is obviously dead considering he has a telephone size spike through his chest shows she is visibly more emotionally affected than Mal's reaction to Shepherd Book's death.
___
Sorry, sometimes my wife forgets that she is not an alien from outer space.

[–] gory_reer 8 years ago

Nope, she's still in a "state of shock" to me then and there... then the incident is more or less brushed past and again, my previous comments were regarding more than just the character's immediate reactions. To keep the pace of the main story Wash's death isn't given anymuch focus, neither Zoe's reaction: it's rapidly back to the ensemble's task at hand for her. She didn't get much individual time as she most certainly would've had it still been the TV series. Wintersong feels her being injured illustrates how she was affected, I feel it wasn't important who the injury happened to (just as it wasn't important precisely who died), to me it was a tension-upping snag in a film like any other.

"Claiming"? Sorry if I've been writing how I feel too much like objective statements. You don't reckon I WANT to be irritated by the film, right? I watched them both in a oner so hadn't developed much stubborn loyalty to the show prior to seeing the film.

[–] NVDan 8 years ago

Nope, she's still in a "state of shock" to me then and there...

So in your mind being in a state of shock indicates a lack of emotion?
Interesting.

... and again, my previous comments were regarding more than just their immediate reactions. ... Wintersong feels her being injured illustrates how she was affected, I feel it wasn't important who the injury happened to (just as it wasn't important precisely who died), to me it was a tension-upping snag in a film like any other.

I can't help but notice you glossed over most of wintersong's response. The injury wasn't the point. The point was Zoe getting up and walking towards the Reavers blocking Jayne's line of fire. Again, as wintersong put it, "That was a mourning-deathwish-revenge state of mind." And in your mind totally unemotional.

I watched them both in a oner so hadn't developed much stubborn loyalty to the show prior to seeing the film.

So in your mind people who disagree with your assessment that Zoe showed no emotion over Wash's death and can show where she did do so not because the movie backs up their view but because the have "stubborn loyalty to the show".
Interesting.

___
Sorry, sometimes my wife forgets that she is not an alien from outer space.

[–] gory_reer 8 years ago

No, I'm saying stubborn loyalties to "originals" often inspire disdain for sequels of any kind and I didn't want you to feel that's where my issues with the film stem from. I wasn't dismissing your defense of the film as stubbornly loyal at all, I was talking about me!

[–] NVDan 8 years ago

No, I'm saying stubborn loyalties to "originals" often inspire disdain for sequels of any kind and I didn't want you to feel that's where my issues with the film stem from. I wasn't dismissing your defense of the film as stubbornly loyal at all, I was talking about me!

I apologize. The mistake was entirely mine.

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Sorry, sometimes my wife forgets that she is not an alien from outer space.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

despite his soldier's composure I felt I saw MORE emotion (dejection was my previous choice of word) from Mal knowing Inara is leaving and upon Book's death than I did from Zoe upon her husband's death!

Oh, I agree. But that's because they're two different personalities. Mal was always more emotional, even on the show.

Zoe was always the more stoic one. Zoe's more of a soldier than Mal is.

Seize the moment, 'cause tomorrow you might be dead.

[–] Chromwagner 8 years ago

Glass and Tudyk were not available for a sequel so the studio ordered the firing sqad. In retrospective it was kind of unnecessary and alien to the light hearted style of the series.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

Glass and Tudyk were not available for a sequel so the studio ordered the firing sqad.

Not true. After all, there's no way to know they wouldn't be available for a future project that wasn't even in development.

Glass was in fact not available for most of Serentiy, not a sequel.

Joss specifically mentioned he killed off Book to give Mal motivation and he killed Wash to add a sense of danger to the climax.

But the studio didn't order any deaths.

I don't see it as too alien. Joss's shows have killed off important/popular characters before.

Seize the moment, 'cause tomorrow you might be dead.

[–] sidious82 8 years ago

"... alien to the light hearted style of the series", he said, not to Whedon's style (if killing important characters is some sort of style anyway). And yeah, he's right. Serenity tried to be more adult (so to speak) than Firefly and instead is just colder, two concepts easily mistaken.

[–] LocusNOLA (26) 7 years ago

Actually, the "cozy-family" quality of "Firefly" is one of its best qualities, for me.

That said, I think Book' death give Captain Mal the final certainty of belief he needs to take on the Alliance.

As for Wash's death, it's shattering. But, seeing that death, seeing River take the helm, I am satisfied, dramatically. Plus, Wash being gone reconciled me to the end of the series. I don't need to see more of River's journey - I am fine with what I have.

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

good points there.
I think the OP , like myself , look at the firefly story as timeless , to be travelled many times, which makes writing infinitely harder.
The future is full of surprises , some of them bad. You cant write it so that the "cozy" never stops.