MovieChat Forums > Zero Day (2004) Discussion > Weak Motives... Not suicidal

Weak Motives... Not suicidal


Did anyone else find that these two kids had nearly no motives at all before attacking the school? I mean... They don't really say ANYTHING about why they were going to go on a killing spree until the end when they say on tape they had their feelings hurt a few times by other kids in the school (or something like that) which happens to like... every normal kid in highschool at one time or another

And second... Why do they commit suicide? These kids in no way were suicidal, depressed or had any sort of mental illness that would cause them to take their own lives... If they had'nt mentioned they knew they were going to kill themselves before the shooting even happened, it would have been more realistic because after doing what they just did, they may feel like its the only way out.

Cal especially seems to loom over killing himself such as when he mentions coming out of the school in a plastic bag... Kids like this would just flat out surrender or decide not to shoot themselves in the end (like Andre nearly did... I kinda hoped he was going to decide against it to make things interesting)

Was it just some sort of stupid millitaristic mind set of a "suicide mission" or what? It was just confusing and not very convincing

The shooters at Columbine were suicidal but for reason. Even before the shooting they had issues with their mental state and were previously considered to be suicidal which made it make more sense that they would kill themselves afterwords

If anyone wants to add input/opinions, feel free to do so... Also, on a side-note. I was also dissapointed that we didnt get to see them use the pipe bombs after they showed how they made them and all


ShAnE_MeIsTeR

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When you look through the evidence of the shooting, including the personal journals of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, you'll find they didn't really have much motive, either. Neither was really picked on any more than other students at the school. Brooks Brown, a friend of theirs, was taunted just as much, and he didn't participate in the killing spree. Eric Harris intentionally "outcast" himself starting his sophomore year. Yet girls liked him, he went on dates, and was popular at the pizza restaurant he worked part time. Klebold had a pretty large circle of friends, and was active in the dram club at Columbine High (he worked the audio for stage productions, and spent at least a dozen hours of his own time a week after school there). He even took a trip to Arizona State with his parents to pick out his dorm room for the fall semester. Neither was a bad student, grade-wise. To everyone else (apart from the the parents of Brooks Brown), they were two perfectly normal kids, and there were no outwards signs that anyone could see that would have suggested otherwise.

I think it's a stretch to say Andre and Cal didn't suffer from any from of mental illness. Anyone who seriously plans to murder people, stockpiles the weapons to do so, and actually commits the act, has to have something wrong with them. It isn't normal, healthy behavior in the least. They also suffered from the same sort of superiority complex that Harris and Klebold suffered from (I think at one point in the film they refer to themselves as gods, and each refers to the upcoming massacre as a wake-up call, something they have to do to "open peoples' eyes"; they even say the people in their town are fortunate to have the massacre take place there). And I would definitely say they were suicidal. Andre suggests to Cal that they storm outside and engage the police in a shootout; there's no way they could have expected that scenario to end any other way than being shot to death by cops. That's a form of suicide. And moments before, Andre holds is revolver under his chin, while Cal isn't looking, and repeatedly pulls the trigger; regardless of whether or not he knew the gun was still loaded, it's an attempted suicide. He either thought the gun was still loaded, and expected to die, or he knew it was empty and was merely testing to see how easy it would have been to blow his own brains out.

Historically, almost every single school shooting (or public shooting, for that matter) ends with the suicide of the perpetrator. It's almost as if people finally realize what they've done, and rather than face the certainly severe legal consequences and social backlash that awaits them, they opt to cash in their chips on their own terms. Harris and Klebold, despite any grand escape or rampage plans they may have had for after they launched their attack, knew they were going to go into their school, and never come out alive. Harris even shot at one of the 20-lb propane bombs planted in the cafeteria that failed to detonate, while inside the cafeteria; had it exploded, he would have been killed, as he knew the 300+ students present at that particular lunch hour would have been.

Anyone who commits this sort of act has to know they're going to die because of it, whether it's by their own hand, at the hands of law enforcement, or state-assisted once they get caught.

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I actually thought the concept of having no motives as being a motive was quite good and didn't like the petty excuses the filmmaker threw in at the end about Andre being bullied and all. I mean, who can explain why people do the crazy things they do? Eric Harris was a textbook sociopath and just hated the world and everyone in it. Going on a shooting rampage and then killing himself was probably the biggest *beep* you" to the world he could think of. I saw a bit of that in Cal and especially Andre.

There is actually some subtle hinting however (besides the bullying excuse) about Cal and Andre's motives. After Andre's birthday he and Cal egg the house of one of the jocks at school after complaining that he never gets punished for anything he does. It's their way of leveling the playing field and righting a wrong. I thought that was also an interesting hint at why they would feel the need to take matters into their own hands and get back at the society for all it's faults. That was partly the Virgina Tech shooter's motive as evidenced in his hatred of the unappreciative, snobby rich kids at his school.

The fact that Cal and Andre didn't exhibit explicit suicidal tendencies doesn't really mean anything. Many school shootings and mass murders end in a suicide by the perpetrator. It's just a way of going out in glory and taking as many people with you. And sometimes, like Andre, the shooter turns the gun on himself only to find they can't do the deed after all. Michael Carneal wanted to kill himself after his rampage but couldn't do it and begged the cops to do it for him.

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Their world view was such that people did not respect or love their fellow man, and it would take a horrific event for people all over the world to realize this.

There are a number of personality disorders and or paths traveled in life to suggest how these two arrived to this world view, and evident in their bonding of "i couldn't have done this without you" -- together they were able to find a common-ground where neither felt alone, alienated, without appreciation or without understanding or without acknowledgement.

The other idea here is to transform the concept of a "killer," that people who commit horrible atrocities are just that -- PEOPLE.

You can poke a pane of glass so long before it shatters, and people are as frail and transparent.

The other macabre and ironic quality is the "mission" of these two was over-stated (both for their conscience, and i'm sure over-stated for the movie's sake) as 'not being about their stupidity, angst or because they are crazy,' but because the life they lived led them to see the world needed an event to remind them of the precious quality of life.

Don't get me wrong -- things like Columbine, the personification of this movie, and all that does not create or sustain life is the anti-thesis of the whole life experience. This is also the point of the movie. You don't side with Andre or Cal, but you're left not understanding them.

Which I think is the point . . . you never do understand these things as we cannot rationalize the irrational. But I find this movie told the untold side, that sometimes people have their own view, or their own experience, or their own pain, and they act in the most condemning of ways when led to any extreme of view / experience / et cetera.

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"I actually thought the concept of having no motives as being a motive was quite good and didn't like the petty excuses the filmmaker threw in at the end about Andre being bullied and all."

I get what you're saying with that, but remember, this film was made six years before Dave Cullen's book exposing the fact that the notion that it was "because of bullying" was all but completely a myth. In 2001, when it was filmed, and even in 2003, when it was released, everyone still had the understanding that H and K were two bullied teens pushed off the edge. And I'd say Ben Coccio showed remarkable perceptiveness and insight by making this film given that at the time "Trench Coat Mafia" was still a buzzword and a lot of people were wondering if violent video games contributed to the massacre.

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That's sort of the point, their motivations aren't full satisfactory because in real life normal people don't entirely understand how mass shooters got to this point. I got the sense that not even the shooters fully understand why they did it. I don't know if the boys were severely bullied or not, but in their perspective they felt insulted by the world. People have vastly different reactions to being mistreated, some people come out normal, some have deep psychological issues, and in some extreme cases some people lash out like this.

Also, why don't you think Cal was suicidal? He talked about suicide, he made it clear he wanted to die. And while Andre seemed more hesitant to die, I think there was a mention of antidepressants and people seemed to think he was a tad psycho.

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I think part of the genius of the film is precisely that it never gives a clear reason for anything. There's a term in fiction writing called "point of entry" and it refers to the point in the total story that the narration actually starts at and that the audience first becomes privy to what is happening. Point of entry is often a critical decision, and I'd say Ben Coccio nailed it with Zero Day. We are dropped off right in the middle of the story, when Cal and Andre have already committed to Zero Day and have already done most of their planning. Context about where they are, what the school is like, how they came to the decision, etc. are forcefully denied to us. We are forced to let Andre and Cal hold our hands and guide us through the whole narrative, all the while knowing that we are not getting the full story. This is one film where the director essentially saying "*beep* you" to the audience turns out to be an effective device. There's even a scene where Andre invites Cal to answer our nagging questions in an almost fourth-wall-breaking moment and then the tape just abruptly cuts off with Cal giving an expression that basically says "Why are we doing this? *beep* you, that's why." The film works because it forces the audience to do the bulk of the mental work. It relies on a forced point of entry and exit, limited flow of information, and a paper-thin fourth wall.

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