MovieChat Forums > Der Untergang (2005) Discussion > Blind Faith. And you think it cant happ...

Blind Faith. And you think it cant happen again?

posted 10 years ago by Mellow-Fellow
15 replies | jump to latest

People say...

That kind of blind faith is foolish, incredibly naive, and responsible for many of the evils in our world.

Yes, it is an unfortunate irony we live with as human beings. Religion... Blind faith is it not? What proof does anyone have of their god? Nothing... it is 100% Pure, blind faith. And yes, it is responsible for many of the evils in our world, and is touted as something great to do wonderful things for all of mankind. Don't get me wrong, religion does a lot of good for some people. The problem begins when people living with this belief start thinking their way is the only way and everybody else must be killed or converted. They often dress this reality up with pretty words like "Cleansing", and "Solution".

Hitler became something of a god, take a look at North Korea, and the way Kim Il-sung is depicted there. Nobody else can become president, he is the first and only president and is said to rule from the grave in a sense. The fanatical believe blindly in the regime.

Younger people in the free world don't realize how lucky they are to simply have the availability of free thought and education 'available' to them. Sure public schools are biased in certain directions and even to a minor extent of the teacher teaching them, but we are free to do our own research and come to our own conclusions about things.

That kind of blind faith you speak of could easily happen here, and you are the foolish one to believe it could not. Take a look at the Nuremberg trials, most of the men tried had well above high intelligence levels when they were tested before trial, all smart men, and statistically all of the NSDAP party members were not evil, its not possible, most were probably good people. Nobody thinks they are the bad guys.

People just get enveloped and consumed with the ideology of a fast high-energy movement with basic principles they can stand behind, particularly in a time of greater despair and poverty. I think of it as people developing almost a hive mindset where the comradery and mutual goals among countrymen really rally people together and far outweigh any possible free-thinking individual from speaking out, because the dark sides of these movements often develop too much momentum before anybody takes enough notice out of their daily lives to actually attempt to make a change, and at that point you are shot or imprisoned for your "radical beliefs!"

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Mellow-Fellow 10 years ago

You are looking at an ant hill and calling it the same thing as a mountain. They have similar properties but shouldn't be categorized as the same.

Most everyone today goes on about their daily lives unaware of the atrocities taking place all the time across the globe. Everybody was involved in World War 2. The world was very aware of it's situation and the war, everyone suffered and contributed. Not like this war on terror where the effects are completely transparent for day to day living.

So no it's not happening all the time today. Yeah people are getting killed everyday. Are people being systematically murdered by the millions in extermination camps? No.

[–] firstwinsgop-1 9 years ago

Nobody was "systematically murdered by the millions" in exterminations camps. That is pure nonsense. Tens of millions died in WWII because it was a massive war. Bush and Obama are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands in the Middle East between Iraq, Libya, and Syria, and Obama is currently doing all he can to start a war with Russia that could in theory end up destroying most life on earth.

[–] phantom2-2 9 years ago

nobody was murdered in extermination camps? talk about your nonsense....

or are you just making the case that most people were murdered on the spot and never made it to the camps?

[–] Mellow-Fellow 9 years ago

The tin foil snug enough? Make sure you craft a fine point at the top and climb the tallest tree you find outside in the next lightning storm.

People were exterminated in camps specifically built for killing people. That is not a simple "war casualty" as you are clearly trying to chalk it up to fog of war. Holocaust deniers are right up there with the most ignorant mother *beep* on earth so I wont waste much time here.

There is a huge difference in the motives of Hitler and those of Bush and Obama, though it's cute you put Bush and Obama on the same team, and pure nonsense to say they are responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. Then ironically a few sentences up you chalk the Holocaust up to just being part of war. Patton did all he could to start a war with Russia. Believe me (you wont) Obama is not doing "all he can" to start a war with Russia. I hate to resort to calling names but you are just an idiot, or fishing for a response in the guise of a moron, either way you're still an idiot.

[–] undomiel152003-1 9 years ago

Oh please, stop being so incredibly stupid. I feel embarrassed for you.

Quit ya moanin

[–] CaliCurmudgeon 9 years ago

Nevertheless, death camps and selected genocidal attacks did happen again and again: Cambodia and Bosnia, to name just two.

[–] VVolfySnackrib 9 years ago

You fools. You blind stupid fools! Hitler was not the evil. International Banking is the evil. Lies have been told for the better part of a century about Hitler, and make no mistake, Hitler was a leader that put people first. Western society never puts people first. It always makes up a bunch of excuses why the obedient people must make sacrifices for the state and for the establishment. In Hitler's case, people had to make sacrifice for themselves, for their own sake, and they did. He was one of the greatest leaders that the world has ever seen, and if he was so evil, how come his priorities were similar to that of Lincoln, Jackson, JFK, and Franklin? They were all men who fought the banks. And that is the most noble thing you could ever do for there is no greater or more terrible or more powerful evil in the world.

[–] Mellow-Fellow 9 years ago

Well aside from the fact that you gotta be joking me or luring me in. Lincoln fought a war to free a people and reunite a nation, he gave his life for it... He didn't fight a war under that pretext to exterminate the black people like your Hitler. But sure, they fought for similar things as well. Which is more evil? Do you deny the massive monuments and gas chambers still standing today to reflect upon the Holocaust? Making agreements with Russia then pulls "Barbarossa" out of his ass like the sneaky coward he was. Killing himself in the end seeing how Mussolini was treated, I doubt it, he was just a coward who lost his genocidal conquest of the world over a bitter Versailles agreement. Which may have needed some fixing, but not by invading Poland. He owed his life to a soldier in WWI who spared him, was saved by a priest during baptism, ironic. On what slender threads do life and fortune hang. He was spurned by the Jews prosperity and a debated unrequited love for a Jewish girl in his youth. He would have turned on the Japanese ASAP.

He put his own agenda first, not everything is black and white... He crusaded for animal rights, led the first anti-smoking campaign, was a vegetarian and patron of the arts and he also tried to take over the whole world and "roll tanks through New York" while establishing his ideal of a pure race that was based on blind ignorance. His priorities were similar because they are common problems. I will spare you the complex analogy of how both enemies can do good while one remains evil, wanted total domination, the definition of a tyrant. A dictator. Imagine the world living under North Korea's virtual bubble, that's how it would be today, the Axis bubble, no mention of the heroics of the Allies, do you think he would allow idiots like the neo-nazis skinheads we have around today if it were mirrored in the image of perpetuating Roosevelt's, Churchill's and maybe Stalins ideas? No... You woulnd't be allowed much, the constitution would be ratified and we would live under what was once the GDP.

You have read about the GDP, and since I see you aren't very bright or at least very misguided, that's East Germany and the Berlin Wall, and how well all that worked out right? Yeah they built a big ass wall and couldn't keep their people from hemorrhaging out of that place so they shot them at the border (see North Korea) Then even as a half measure North Korea is in a cloud of denial under the facade of prosperity when it's clear to just about everyone on the planet it's a failed state... Their leader wanted a water park, and killed his uncle with an anti-aircraft missile, at best, just assassinated him, then poisoned his aunt for association because his fat cheese eating ass wanted to slide down some water, something they probably don't see very often, let alone drink.

Just because Hitler had a few good ideas doesn't make him a good man, sure ethics are a human concern I believe Einstein, but propaganda aside the man was evil, and only became more so as he gained power and realized what he could get away with. He actually could have won the war if there were more checks and balances to put his ego in place. For one stopping him from freezing half his army to death, leaving Stalingrad alone, and prioritizing like a rational person instead of a genocidal psychopath.

Western society never puts people first. It always makes up a bunch of excuses why the obedient people must make sacrifices for the state and for the establishment.

Ironic again you use the term "Sacrifices for the state and for the establishment" when that's exactly what Hitler called upon Germans to do with him. Every societal structure has sacrifice, what do you think conscription is, or voluntary service to your country? What do you think taxes are, laws that you don't agree with but abide by for the amalgamation of a symbiosis in our community of people. I don't think Lincoln, JFK, or FDR ever experimented on living people with abominable sciences either, but I've never really had to check into that one unless you think they had any idea about Tuskegee or consider JFK allowing his sister to have a lobotomy, which was pretty messed up, but I've wasted enough time on you I doubt you even took anything I said in.

[–] VVolfySnackrib 9 years ago

You got your crap all wrong as you subscribe to the propaganda version.

[–] Mellow-Fellow 9 years ago

Maybe I just put you in your dumb-ass place where you belong and you had nothing to refute so you come along with a one sentence 'You're wrong, I'm right, waaaaaaah, propaganda' response. No I subscribe to the historical version. You picked the wrong person to have this kind of argument with. Where is all my 'crap' wrong? You are saying the mass of books I've read and knowledge I've accumulated is propaganda, but the small amount of absurd books or texts you've found hold more weight over mine? Because you want it to, you need to get out more, get some hobbies friend.

Or, I'd be just fine with ending this now if that's cool with you, because we both know it's just going to make you look worse, and waste both our time.

By the way: I think the whole "Evil" reputation Hitler gets is from you know, exterminating his prisoners in gas chambers under the pretext of "showering". And most of what led up to it... We've come to call it genocide, and is probably one of the most unarguable deeds of evil a man can commit. If the man does not pull the trigger but orders the death whom is responsible? Both. Or if you are one of those Holocaust denial people, lets just let it be and part ways like I suggested. You seem young, dumb, and misguided, get some better friends, don't forget those hobbies too.

[–] Stevicus-2 9 years ago

That kind of blind faith you speak of could easily happen here, and you are the foolish one to believe it could not.

I suppose anything is possible with human societies. I don't know where you're writing from or where "here" is from your point of view, but I will say that in the U.S., our very existence and foundation included a system of checks and balances and clear warnings about why we should not have a government where a single individual or faction has all the power. We opposed the idea that all power should rest in a prince or a king or even a particular faction. The idea even meant that government itself should operate at a minimal level and be decentralized.

Like many countries in Europe, Germany lived under a monarchist system. The notion of swearing an oath to a human being, whether a prince, king, kaiser, or fuhrer, was something perfectly normal and natural to these people. That's where the "blind faith" comes in, but it would be absolutely unheard of in the United States.

Nobody swears an oath to a human being, although we might swear an oath to the Constitution and the principles behind it. That's the key difference. Our system is designed in such a way because we absolutely have no faith in any one human being as above the law, divine, or infallible. As long as we can keep that to heart and continue to believe in it and practice it, then there will be no blind faith - not in this country.

We also don't swear any oath to any church either, as the separation of church and state is another founding principle.

[–] Mellow-Fellow 9 years ago

All good points. I see you've never been in the service. Try telling your CO you don't subscribe to the notion of swearing an oath to absolute obedience even if it means your life. Sure.. They don't make you swear an oath to a particular individual but make no mistake, the chain of command is the royal dictatorship delivered down from generations past.

Yet, one eloquent manipulative individual could do it and they would have to be reallly intelligent, and devious in ways we only see in movies but it could be done. The government gains power every day. FDR introduced a heap of new legislation that gave the president like 3 times the power he had before his office, because "the people" had such faith in his governance during the war. I wont make this too long by listing how large our government is today in 2016, compared to say 1900, If you'd like, look it up, finish reading it and tell me there isn't some unpleasant pit in your stomach you can't directly explain.

I am inclined to agree though, with today, in the information age it would be near impossible to reach Hitler's level of diabolical scheming without being extinguished quickly. Anyone in the future is going to have to use technology and mass communications in such a way that would make the Obama online campaign a joke into the rudimentary level of reaching the billions of people who get up and check their email first thing in the morning now days. Never underestimate the inadvertent stupidity of the people though. Stupidity might be a strong word, it's just that a lot, a whole lot of people don't care about voting or who is in office or what goes on until it affects them directly... Word of mouth no longer spreads from person to person and gets exaggerated over the multiples of times it's told..... I hate to bring this up, but see the Bible for a good example, or any older religious text. You tell sally, johnny kissed mary, sally tells joey, johnny kissed mary, but it was in her mom's room, and he got to second base, joey tells fred johnny screwed mary in his parent's bedroom on prom night.... Thats a really basic example you get the idea. With the internet you would have to do something I'm incapable of explaining, perhaps manipulate media sources by gaining leverage over networks, like massive leverage, and how to acquire this power in the first place? I don't know, ramble on.

[–] Stevicus-2 9 years ago

All good points. I see you've never been in the service. Try telling your CO you don't subscribe to the notion of swearing an oath to absolute obedience even if it means your life. Sure.. They don't make you swear an oath to a particular individual but make no mistake, the chain of command is the royal dictatorship delivered down from generations past.

True, I've never been in the service, but not because I didn't want to join. I tried to enlist but due to a minor physical (but non-crippling) defect, I was medically disqualified. So, at least I can say with a clear conscience that I'm not a slacker; I did make an honest attempt to serve my country, but my country didn't want me.

Still, my understanding is that they have some recourse in the military if they're given illegal orders by their CO. They can't use the defense that they were "just following orders."

Yet, one eloquent manipulative individual could do it and they would have to be reallly intelligent, and devious in ways we only see in movies but it could be done. The government gains power every day. FDR introduced a heap of new legislation that gave the president like 3 times the power he had before his office, because "the people" had such faith in his governance during the war. I wont make this too long by listing how large our government is today in 2016, compared to say 1900, If you'd like, look it up, finish reading it and tell me there isn't some unpleasant pit in your stomach you can't directly explain.

You're correct about FDR, although one thing to keep in mind is that he took office during the Great Depression when there was a lot of despair and misery throughout the country - largely due to the incompetence and mismanagement of the previous Administrations. But FDR was not a dictator; he faced opposition and his hands were tied to some extent. In contrast, Hitler could eliminate his opposition with impunity and build up the police apparatus and the military as much as he wanted, whereas FDR was limited in how much he could do in that regard.

When considering the chain of events leading to the rise of Hitler (or Stalin, for that matter), the thing that strikes me is that the ruling classes of Europe - monarchs, aristocrats, etc. - they were all so arrogant and smug to believe that "peasants" and/or "little corporals" couldn't get the better of them. While not directly related to Hitler, an interesting study is on the fall of the Romanov Dynasty in Russia, illustrating the consequences of what happens when a ruling class becomes too insular, out of touch, arrogant, egotistical, prideful, complacent, and with a massive superiority complex.

I think the same qualities are existent when evaluating how someone like Hitler could gain power. They're led to believe that it couldn't possibly be due to the fact that the aristocracy was comprised of incompetent, crappy leaders who for centuries made it a point to mistreat and abuse the Great Unwashed while building up collective anger and a volcanic resentment among the people. Instead, they believe that it must have been due to the manipulation and almost "magical" oratory of a single individual. Hitler is often painted as some kind of devil, a supernatural being, not some fortunate opportunist who managed to back into power because everyone else in the government was incompetent.

The "old order" of Europe (for lack of a better term) lost the faith of the people all by themselves - and they can't blame it on anyone but themselves. Hitler and Stalin came along at just the right moment when that faith was at its lowest point. But due to their own arrogance, the aristocracy could never come to terms with that. That's why it had to be due to the "magic" of a single individual, since to suggest otherwise would be a costly admission that the peasants might actually be more than just "mindless sheep."

FDR is a different case entirely, but one can still see shades of that same mentality at work among the ruling classes in the United States. The struggles for civil rights and working people - and the manifest opposition they had to overcome - clearly show that these aristocrats just didn't know what they were doing. Left to their own devices, they would drive the economy into the ground which would lead to political upheavals and eruptions which lead to extremism. As much as they rail against liberalism and progressivism, that's really what saved their bacon and kept this nation from falling into tyranny.

So, the lesson here is quite clear, but it's a lesson that only the upper crust and the ruling classes can take to heart. It's their job to keep the people happy, and if the people aren't happy, then they'd better work to change that situation...quickly. Don't wait until Hitler or Lenin or Stalin show up at your doorstep. Be proactive and stay on top of things before it gets to that point. Don't be stubborn, and always be willing to compromise. Above all else, the upper class has to come to the realization that no one is superior to anyone else. Everyone in the world is equal and deserving of respect and dignity. The minute we stop believing that, then we've already lost.

I am inclined to agree though, with today, in the information age it would be near impossible to reach Hitler's level of diabolical scheming without being extinguished quickly. Anyone in the future is going to have to use technology and mass communications in such a way that would make the Obama online campaign a joke into the rudimentary level of reaching the billions of people who get up and check their email first thing in the morning now days.

The internet is an interesting tool and may be something of an "equalizer" in terms of mass communication. Photographic and video technology has also improved immensely. A famous example is the Rodney King beating by police which was caught on video. People are demanding more openness and transparency, and body cams and dash cams are becoming more prevalent. (But again, largely due to the same arrogance I mentioned above, police and other agencies resist the idea of more photographic surveillance. They don't like the idea of the public knowing what they do, and this should also be a red flag and warning for the potential for tyranny.)

But the other side of that is the internet is quite noisy and cacophonous. I notice this when I browse sites like Reddit where it seems that they form their own sub-cultures which can be somewhat insular. People can use the same technology to block or ignore anything they don't want to see or hear. So, instead of using the medium for an exchange of ideas and opposing viewpoints, a lot of people might cocoon themselves into their own alternate reality prone to groupthink and circle-jerking. A lot of people go around glued to their phones and reduce their real world interactions to a minimum.

It also makes it easier to track people's attitudes and the mood of the people, so if they are unhappy, upset, or angry, then the powers that be should have a clear indication as to why and what the possible solutions might be. But I also see the same level of arrogance when people are dismissed as "trolls" or "losers" or "wackos," without really addressing what they're actually saying or trying to convey. A lot of people simply don't want to listen to anything that might take them outside their comfort zone, and this is a tragic mistake that could prove to be very costly in the long run.

[–] Mellow-Fellow 9 years ago

When considering the chain of events leading to the rise of Hitler (or Stalin, for that matter), the thing that strikes me is that the ruling classes of Europe - monarchs, aristocrats, etc. - they were all so arrogant and smug to believe that "peasants" and/or "little corporals" couldn't get the better of them. While not directly related to Hitler, an interesting study is on the fall of the Romanov Dynasty in Russia, illustrating the consequences of what happens when a ruling class becomes too insular, out of touch, arrogant, egotistical, prideful, complacent, and with a massive superiority complex.

Such a gem to see a great piece of history brought up by you. Now I feel compelled to revisit it but I have to admit I've been sitting at my keyboard trying to re-read about the Revolutions of 1917 and the Bolsheviks but somehow got distracted on the formula (and actually understanding it) to gauge distance by dropping a rock and counting the seconds. Man I love the information age and hope and a little luck I might see 50 more years of it.

I will read through the old sources, they slaughtered his family, daughters and servants and all... I want to say Nicholas II? I remember a part in particular how the soldier's bullets would not penetrate the diamond dresses of the women, then they used their bayonets to no avail against the diamonds, finally settled on shooting them point blank. I believe some enthusiast exhumed the graves and they did all the DNA testing and then I don't remember much after they were "publicly" reintered after the union of soviet socialist republics collapsed.
I'm going to read it, It's almost tragic. I know little of the specifics and thanks for bringing it up.

But to touch on that subject I've always wondered about the position of slavery. I always thought, I would plan an elaborate escape plan, and kill everyone of them I possibly could but thats big talk when I don't have to back it up, these are(in 3rd world)/were very uneducated people uneducated in even the simplest mathematics or ways of correspondence. But it's simple numbers and superiority. At one time I believe the blacks outnumbered the whites in the south 8 to 1. I don't understand, perhaps it's like Lincoln said 'Once you familiarize yourself with the chains of bondage, you prepare your own limbs to wear them.' It's just easier to go on living miserably than fighting for a just cause and dying.

As much as they rail against liberalism and progressivism, that's really what saved their bacon and kept this nation from falling into tyranny.

Indeed, it's also what might bring about the downfall of our Nation. Maybe not. I just love irony.

(But again, largely due to the same arrogance I mentioned above, police and other agencies resist the idea of more photographic surveillance. They don't like the idea of the public knowing what they do, and this should also be a red flag and warning for the potential for tyranny.)

Exactly, what are they afraid of, I'm monitored constantly at my job digitally. Most of these idiot cops join the force to abuse their power and I hate to go with the cliche but you know the type, kid pulls you over, probably about 28 years old now, just one look at him and you know he got it bad in school, now he's got the big stick and he's the lawman... Not all of them, but then why should the be against body cams, it should have been implemented years ago, you could have streaming data in 48 hour loops, and pauses at incidents where you would have to hire a supervisor separated from the entire district as to limit any cronyism or bribery (kind of like the red light cam cops). So it could rotate out the stream and take up gigabytes compared to petabytes, pretty easy to do now days, and not too expensive. Easy to manipulate? Maybe, but prejudiced mexican black hating cops aren't always the smartest, and if we get even 25% of them, that's better than we've been doing.

It also makes it easier to track people's attitudes and the mood of the people, so if they are unhappy, upset, or angry, then the powers that be should have a clear indication as to why and what the possible solutions might be.

It's called metadata, and the powers that be do have a clear indication, but sometimes people are just having a bad day, and you cant have millions of Americans on an NSA watchlist of different segments because of simple metadata that "could" be dangerous in some way... What happened to reasonable doubt. Use a proxy server if you care, I'm not paranoid enough and know that I'm not interesting enough for them to be interested in me so I don't turn it on unless I'm doing something I don't want them to see... And even then, if I was a really bad guy I could mask my original IP through a series of chain proxies and Secure servers but then that alone doesn't make me a bad guy, It's like wearing a disguise in public, it's suspicious, but not illegal so move along officer.

As far as Reddit, you've reached the bottom echelon of the internet (maybe not the bottom) but at least the top layer of the bottom and the top layer of the bottom is still pretty ugly. You want a sub-reddit community you are better off finding a real forum about your topic of interest. My advice if anyone cares to know, to the younger people younger than me, learn everything you can about that screen you are looking at right now, and what is powering it, then in the same scope look beyond.