MovieChat Forums > Palindromes (2025) Discussion > Solondz, women, and false relativism *SP...

Solondz, women, and false relativism *SPOILER WARNING*


This started out as a reply to another thread, but I decided it deserves its own thread, instead, and it's somewhat more developed here. Spoilers are sprinkled throughout:

The "abortion --> hysterectomy" development is a major plot line in the film. However, because it's in keeping with movies' squeamishness with abortion (if a character has one, she has to "pay" for it in some way, by having emotional or physical anguish afterwards, even though the vast majority of women having abortions don't have those experiences) Solondz unfortunately has to play with reality in order to accomplish it.
The doctor is shown telling her parents that she had a hysterectomy done on her without her knowledge while she was under anesthesia from the abortion. She is shown waking up in the clinic, and her parents elect not to tell her, and as the movie progresses we see that she never finds out. But there are several reasons why this is impossible: 1) A hysterectomy is major surgery - the little storefront clinic Aviva is in would never have been able to perform it. She would have been transfered to a hospital. 2) Similarly, the recovery period for a hysterectomy is weeks long - Aviva would have been hospitalized for weeks, and there's no way she would not have noticed the pain she was in, or the surgical scar, or the fact that she was in a hospital. Yet in the movie she is shown walking out of the clinic the same day. 3) Even if you discount the first two reasons, Aviva would have noticed in the weeks and months afterwards that she was not getting her period, and therefore was incapable of getting pregnant. Yet we see her gamely trying to get pregnant with the trucker guy.

And yes, the film does play quite obviously with reality in other ways: chiefly the choosing of different actors and actresses to play Aviva at different stages. But the way abortion is portrayed is not on that realm: he's trying to say that this *is* the experience of abortion, and then with that as a foundation,(which has to be real in order for his argument to work), he then introduces other elements of the plot, and other fantastical elements, like Mama Sunshine and her kids, and the different actors.

So, even though the kind of complications of abortion as portrayed in the film are extremely rare (much more rare than complications of actual birth, by the way, especially for a 12-year-old like Aviva), Solondz chose to use this as his arc. Why? Is it fair to criticize him for distorting this complex phenomenon to its worst-case and most-rare scenario? Other people on this board would say no: that this is simply an artistic choice he's making, and it's done all the time in movies: movie psychiatrists are always twisted or tormented individuals, in movies, characters in labor always push out babies in record-breaking time, and have a much higher likelihood of having to be driven across the city by some nervous panicky driver, causing comic highjinks. So, is it fair to say that Solondz is being, himself, unfair, for employing a similar distortion here?

Yes. And here's why: the question of abortion is pretty damned central to women's status as human beings, and to their very survival: every country in which abortion is illegal has much higher maternal death rates, and all you have to do is check out stats by the World Health Organization to confirm this. It's a right women have fought long and hard to be able to gain, and in this country it's being attacked from all sides (and the movie did explore the way this is attacked, in the callous murder of abortion doctors -- although I wonder what Solondz is trying to say when the true tragedy is **SPOILER WARNING** that the bullet hits the child instead, implying that the real problem with murdering doctors is mainly that you might not succeed in killing your intended target?)

Anyway, I digress. Why do I say that it's unfair of Solondz to join on the bandwagon of how nearly every single movie, song, or TV show treats abortion? Abortion is treated, in these art forms, as either a) unspeakable, meaning, literally, the option is never mentioned even when the pregant woman is too young, too unstable, too selfish, etc, to have a baby; b) okay, you're allowed to say it's a woman's right, but only as long as you don't exercise it (see Sex and the City, Good in Bed, etc) or c) on the rare, rare occasion that a character has one, it has to leave her with emotional scars (Six Feet Under, Nine Lives) or physical scars (21 Grams) or destroy her fertility altogether (Palindromes). And yet, if women didn't have the right to have abortion, without fear or shame, it would be reducing them to slaves of their own bodies. This is a right that's fiercely under attack from people who don't even think women have the right to birth control. (Find me an anti-abortion organization that supports birth control, and I'll eat my hat. Not even "Feminists" for "Life" supports it.) And yet look how it gets eroded and attacked in the cultural sphere! To make my point, imagine if, in 1973, divorce had finally been made legal, and women's right to live with a husband of their choosing, rather than being forced by the government to remain married when they no longer wanted to be, had only just been granted. Now imagine that every movie that ever touched on the subject of divorce portrayed it as unspeakable, or a right that should never ever actually be exercised, or as something that will always scar a woman physically or emotionally! Not one movie in which a woman finally gets the courage to leave a stifling or abusive marriage and for whom divorce is a liberating thing.

If that were the case with movies about divorce, you would reasonably be able to draw several conclusions: 1) the movies were being dishonest, because that's not the actual experience of divorce in this country, and while divorce can be painful and terribly sad, it sometimes is exactly what is needed, especially when a one partner wants to control or even abuse the other partner; and 2) you'd also conclude that the question of women's liberation from bad marriages was not being treated fairly in films. You'd say: why is divorce always being shown as a horror, when it's shown at all? Are filmmakers trying to say that it's bad to be able to choose whether you stay married or not? And you'd, rightly, be pretty pissed. Well, that's what the situation is with abortion in movies and songs and TV -- the actual experience is distorted and twisted, and the sum total ends up saying some things about abortion that simply aren't true.

Back to Palindromes: The main tragedy in Aviva's life, as portrayed in the film, is not that she's a 12-year-old girl who has no other ambitions in life but to be a mother -- something which, societally, is a major, major problem. No, this is lost in the wave of horror Solondz gives her. The main problem isn't that he callously manipulated facts about biology to do it, although that's a sign that he's got an agenda. The main problem is this: Solondz wanted to make a film in which abortion, even when it's clearly the right choice (this girl is in no way mature enough to be a mother, and carrying the pregnancy to term is risky for a 12-year-old) is terribly harmful and turns the girl into a runaway, a murderer, a lost soul. She has a desire which is a sign of how young girls are devalued in this society -- again, think of how from a very young age she thinks that her only validation is to be a mother -- and yet, when she is saved from having her terrible wish fulfilled, that destroys her. Given the terrible things that happen to her as (Solondz argues) are a result of her abortion, it would've been better to have become a mother at age 12. Waaaait a minute -- what kind of a *beep*ing argument is that to make? Either a) Solondz agrees with that, which would cast a pretty bad light on whether he thinks women should aspire to be anything other than mothers, or b) what's more likely, he thinks both paths are equally *beep*ed up, and there's simply no hope at all for young girls like Aviva. Well, Solondz, abortion is not, in actual fact, worse than becoming a mother at age 12 because you think motherhood is your only value and you're tragically impatient to get there, because you think nothing else you could do with your young life is as good as that. (How many 12-year-old boys exist in the world who think that their only real value is as fathers? How many 12-year-old boys in the world sit making lists of their potential babies' names?)

It's not, as some reviewers and posters have said, that the film portrays "both sides" as equal. On closer look, here's what he says about the anti-abortion side: They are portrayed as people who, at their heart, have pretty good ideas, about caring for every child, no matter how disabled (look at Mama Sunshine and her array of children, and how loving and warm she is portrayed), and giving every fertilized egg a chance to become a baby. They are portrayed as people who would be good, if they weren't also hypocritical (meaning, not living up to an ideal that they should live up to) -- they judge Aviva as a "whore", and they are so misguidedly zealous in their desire to protect all zygotes that they kill doctors in the process. But, overall, they are portrayed as people whose moral core is basically good, and the tragedy is that they have strayed from it.
And the pro-choice side? Their only portrayal is Ellen Barkin, shown as being materialistic (it's as if there is no moral argument for not having a child when you don't want to, and the only arguments Solondz allows her to make are callous, shallow materialistic ones). And the ultimate effect of abortion is shown as being terrible. I'm sorry, but this is not only *not* even-handed, but Solondz ends up siding with, and portraying as morally superior, people who think women's role in society is principally to produce children!

And so, in what turned out to be a longer post than I meant, ultimately this movie is making a pretty backward argument about women, and hopes for any kind of liberating vision, and a pretty retrograde argument about abortion. He probably meant well, but he makes a fatal assumption to start with: he thinks that, since there are two sides to this argument, they both must be equally wrong and equally right. Not always, Solondz -- there are "two sides" to the debate over whether Black people are intellectually inferior, and there are "two sides" to the debate over whether global warming exists or it's just some strange invention by thousands upon thousands of scientists. But those "two sides" are ... right, and wrong. It's the same here.

On a societal level, the two visions for women are *not* equal. Taking away a woman's right to abortion is the forceful reassertion of male domination -- this is not "moral"!! This vision of women's role in society states that women should not have the right to birth control and abortion, which can only mean that whenever they engage in sex, they do so with the fear that they will again get pregnant. (For those who dismiss what a real tragedy this is, check out this link, to a blog of someone who is trying to reconcile Christian views on birth control with their desire to not have any more painful and problematic pregnancies. http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/18/a-christian-man-considers-contraception/

What view of women is expressed in not allowing women to prevent pregnancy? )

The other side thinks that women should have the right to decide when they have sex, with whom, and that when they do engage in sex, they have the right to have birth control, because they have the right to enjoy sex without paying for it with pregnancy. It also says that once women do become pregnant, it would be wrong to force them to remain so, because that would be violating the autonomy of their bodies.


It would have been a far better film if, rather than sticking to stereotypes, on all sides, and false claims of moral equivalency, he would have had the courage to go deeper. What if he had focused on the question: why is it that a young woman is willing to risk her life, her future, her whole selfhood, for the sake of having a baby? What kind of world is this, if this is what goes on? Who in society thinks that's just as it should be, and who in society wants to change it? Is it possible to change this? Why or why not?

Thoughts?

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Oioh!
Great points, really deep vision... and I will need a second reading of the film, by the way I watched it without any kind of subs and in the original languages, so I missed a lot... anyway thanks for sharing your thoughts.

______________________________EnjoY_the_CataLonian_seNse_Of_DramA______________________________

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you really viewed this movie through a very narrow personal political view, and missed the point in the process.

what you suggest as a far better film sounds very boring to me, better suited for a pamphlet.

Solondz doesn't imply "that the real problem with murdering doctors is mainly that you might not succeed in killing your intended target?", quite obviously not the case.

there are no claims of "moral equivalency"

"The main problem isn't that he callously manipulated facts about biology to do it, although that's a sign that he's got an agenda"

again, that is your own narrow political view speaking. Solondz agenda is telling a good story, every filmmaker "manipulates facts" (have you heard of Superman?) to suit the narrative.

"ultimately this movie is making a pretty backward argument about women"

the movie isn't making an argument at all, it is telling a story, that is the fundamental point you keep making and it is wrong.

again, Solondz is a filmmaker, a storyteller. You obviously have a huge axe to grind with the abortion issue and that is distorting your view of the film.

You sentiments are better suited to a pamphlet or a flyer, not a narrative film.
The funny thing is i think i basically agree with you on the issue but a filmmakers only responsibility is to the story and to the characters not to a movement or a group or a party.

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Woah. You wrote a lot. lol. but...i do agree, and you make fantastic points about abortion. Plus, every "pro-life" person thinks they're being advocates for innocent little babies. When in reality, how many babies are going to live healthy, complete, satisfying lives with a mom that didnt want them. and adoption is not the answer, because that leaves emotional scars and can end up not even happening because the mom gets so attached. to be painfully honest, i'd say that the child would be better off not being born. not with how much crap and pain they'd have to go through in life. but anyways, stay pro-choice and thanks for discussing these things even though conservatives try to make it taboo.

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I think if you reread what you said, you'd realize you aren't making complete sense...

Babies become children who ultimately become adults. However messed up their childhood may have been (which happens with all types of families, not just mothers who considered abortion) they eventually have complete control of their own lives and who they are for potentially 90-something years. Why would anyone want to take that away? No childhood is "healthy, complete and satisfying", really. Every childhood has problems; many people define their families as "dysfunctional". There is no perfect childhood. And again, some of the most messed up are completely likely to have come from a mother who didn't even think about abortion.

I'm confused how adoption can't be the answer because that leaves "emotional scars"... for who? The parents? Because there is emotional scarring anyway. If you think about it, even having a child is in a way a "scar". You will never be the same once you are pregnant. Whether you get rid of it (emotional scarring), put it up for adoption (emotional scarring) or have it, which changes your life forever (though we hope for the good... it takes a lot of work and sacrifice), you are different and emotionally changed. If you mean for the child, adoption is generally very smooth when done right after birth. The adoptions that have problems are the older children, or people who were in and out of foster homes. And even then, those can be sucessful. A baby adopted a birth does not seem likely to have any more emotional scars than a regular child born into that family. If the adoption doesn't happen because the mother gets attached... why is that bad? So a mother realizes she loves and wants to keep her child? Isn't this a good thing? But it would have been better to get rid of the child, rather than come to the conclusion that the love for her child is more important than whatever reason she was coming up with NOT to have it?

I feel like you're throwing a lot of thoughts out there, but you haven't actually sorted them out. And maybe because it's just not a big issue to you, understandable if it doesn't directly affect you right now. But it is very, very important to some people and there are lots of things you're merely misting over, that if you care to, you might want to think about.

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Spoliers.

Ok the DVD copy i rented had some sound issues, where the sound would go so quite that i could barely hear anything even with full volume. So i could be wrong from my understanding but i thought that something went wrong while getting the abortion and because of that she would not have been able to had children. From my understanding manly from other tv shows, and movie as well as bad practices (basically why it should stay legalized) that its possible that an abortion can go wrong and cause u to not be able to have children. That was my assumption from that scene.


I also thought that it wasnt so much saying that "this *is* the experience of abortion" but more so the same journey. You have sex, u get pregnant, you make a choice, you deal with that choice. Each actress of Aviva seemed to experience something different, although her story was the same it was a different experince for each actress of Aviva to me that symbolized that every abortion is done for a different reason, yet it has the same end results, and each person will deal with this differently. Also that Christian family was so extreme, as well as the killing of the doctor that it was almost mocking the idea of pro life.

The next thing after im not sure if your trying to say kids that that age can't have babies, my mom works in a school. She has kids having sex in grade in grade 7 , girls having their periods in grade 5. So im not sure if that was what u where implying with artistic stretch.

"**SPOILER WARNING** that the bullet hits the child instead, implying that the real problem with murdering doctors is mainly that you might not succeed in killing your intended target?" <-- I agree with this, if you stop the doctors to stop the abortions, The women will end up somewhere else, in an un save environment, ending up hurt or dead.

I do not understand your point about, every movie being the same, and or the part about divorce. (however i agree with the birth control thing and my PERSONAL OPINION about religion is that the reason they do not believe in birth control, abortion and or gay relationships is because religion is a business, it was created for social control, and the easiest way to make the religion grow is threw children. Since its is my belief that many children choose there religion from positive and negative reinforcements from their parents. And that is why they dont accept birth control and abortion. lol they just dont know it Neways that is my personal opinion on that) Neways There are many movies/tv(and i wish i could name some, but i believe SUV have touched upon it) that discuss women having an abortion and it being the right choice for them....they dont make a big deal about it because it was the right choice. They dont make movies about the right choices or things that dont impact your life at all. Not to mention this movie touched upon how it was the right choice for the Mom in this movie to have an abortion.

I really like your point about his point he was trying to make about the film, how an abortion is clearly the right thing to do, yet it destroys her. I do feel that she was lost from the beginning, and stayed lost. And there are probably not that many 12 year old boys that think that all they have to do is be fathers. I do think this movie touches upon society and how no matter what we are shaped by it some how. I think she was lost in the beginning of the movie for thinking in order to be happy she needed something to love. The little black Aviva portrayed it in a happy ton, more like a child playing house, the other girls seemed to be depressed and the child would fill what they are missing. And after everything that happened in her life, we see how selfish and how she does not understand the world around her ie murder, sex with an adult etc. it was almost like saying, sometimes when people keep the child it is out of selfishness to themselves and are not thinking of that child who is being born. To me this movie said abortion is the right thing to do in some situations.


Neways i agree with your views on abortion, birth control, and womens rights. And i didnt mean to take away from what you where saying. But i just saw the movie differently then you did. And have seen many independent or films from other countries where abortion has been in the topic. I do feel that showing extremes can be mocking of a certain idea, because when you are shown the extreme is it easier to see how wrong it is. I felt this movie did that, it showed an extreme selfishness and lack of knowlegde of Aviva, It showed an extreme religious groups, that looked crazy from there beliefs. Neways i thought it was well done, and didnt just touch apon abortion but child abuse, child depression, how you need to educate are children about, sex, STDs, pregnancy not only at home but in schools. To me this movie was done well, because it said so much more.

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[deleted]

ehehe fantastic! After physical attack, that's the most second common thing a man would do under threat of having of one his privileges suspended: equate! equate! equate! Ignore HIStory. Every argument is equal therefore you can be right and also wrong, by the way is death speech?
Although I'd love to point fingers at Solondz for his genious at tearing up every ethical referencial system, I do believe this to be so much less than that. I dont know, I just cant give that much credit. All I can see is this really really silly pleasure on the absence of commitment, unless you count inclusive indifference as commitment. Does he?

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I agree with many of the things the original poster 'comolaflores' said. You are obviously coming from a feminist point of view (as your reading of the film suggests) and it contains a lot that I agree with.

Your reading was also very literal in places which I also didn't have a problem with but I think the film maker was obviously playing with these attitudes.

I found the film interesting but slightly sickly. The post modern framework provided an ambiguous effect and yet many of the other characters were over simplified to the point of stereotyping. Which was perhaps the point the Todd Solondz trying to create - similar to the conventions of a fairytale? But I couldn't see why exactly. I was moved in places but so what? It didn't feel as experimental or as empathetic as it thought it was.

It was a strange way to deal with this sort of subject. So what if child abuse is like a palindrome? It feels like an empty symbol. The balance in the film was wrong as the previous poster pointed out and some of the basic film language was problematic - blurred and yet very precise in it's interpretation on a complex subject.

The humour at times felt almost like the sort of humour in American Pie - crass. OK, I was being dared to laugh at Christian disabled kids because I am so cynical and yet it spent to long explaining the hypocrisy of Christian anti-abortionists.

Would he spend the same time explaining the hypocrisy of Christian creationist too? They are in the minority, surely - compared to the Catholics who vagualy believe in anti-abortionism without having to make the hard decisions that woman in those sorts of positions have to confront.

Perhaps it is because I am British and people with this sort of fundamentalist anti-abortionist opinions are viewed as simply misguided idiots with very little to contribute to a rational exploration of the subject.

The film didn't really help me understand either the conceptual or emotional background to how people could really picket an abortion clinic and still be considered within the boundries of what most people consider 'normal'. Which is why it felt like an ultimately empty experience.



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The "abortion --> hysterectomy" development is a major plot line in the film. However, because it's in keeping with movies' squeamishness with abortion (if a character has one, she has to "pay" for it in some way, by having emotional or physical anguish afterwards, even though the vast majority of women having abortions don't have those experiences) Solondz unfortunately has to play with reality in order to accomplish it.
The doctor is shown telling her parents that she had a hysterectomy done on her without her knowledge while she was under anesthesia from the abortion. She is shown waking up in the clinic, and her parents elect not to tell her, and as the movie progresses we see that she never finds out. But there are several reasons why this is impossible: 1) A hysterectomy is major surgery - the little storefront clinic Aviva is in would never have been able to perform it. She would have been transfered to a hospital. 2) Similarly, the recovery period for a hysterectomy is weeks long - Aviva would have been hospitalized for weeks, and there's no way she would not have noticed the pain she was in, or the surgical scar, or the fact that she was in a hospital. Yet in the movie she is shown walking out of the clinic the same day. 3) Even if you discount the first two reasons, Aviva would have noticed in the weeks and months afterwards that she was not getting her period, and therefore was incapable of getting pregnant. Yet we see her gamely trying to get pregnant with the trucker guy.


Where do you get the idea that its a storefront clinic? From what I saw in the movie, it was an abortion clinic and doctors who know how to perform an abortion would certainly know how to perform a hysterectomy. Also, Aviva would not be in the hospital for weeks. Days? Perhaps... It depends on how the surgery is performed. One is not even in the hospital for days after childbirth these days, so its not far-fetched to believe Aviva would be discharged within a few days. You are taking it for granted that she left the same day. Its never implied or stated either way. As for her period? One - alot of womens' periods are very sketchy, coming a few times in one month and then not coming at all for months on end. So, again, not a far-fetched idea that a 13 yr old girl would think nothing of not getting her period.

And yes, the film does play quite obviously with reality in other ways: chiefly the choosing of different actors and actresses to play Aviva at different stages. But the way abortion is portrayed is not on that realm: he's trying to say that this *is* the experience of abortion, and then with that as a foundation,(which has to be real in order for his argument to work), he then introduces other elements of the plot, and other fantastical elements, like Mama Sunshine and her kids, and the different actors.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say in this paragraph. Are you stating the Sunshine family is fantastical? That it could never exist in real life. It does, in fact, exist IRL.

So, even though the kind of complications of abortion as portrayed in the film are extremely rare (much more rare than complications of actual birth, by the way, especially for a 12-year-old like Aviva), Solondz chose to use this as his arc. Why? Is it fair to criticize him for distorting this complex phenomenon to its worst-case and most-rare scenario? Other people on this board would say no: that this is simply an artistic choice he's making, and it's done all the time in movies: movie psychiatrists are always twisted or tormented individuals, in movies, characters in labor always push out babies in record-breaking time, and have a much higher likelihood of having to be driven across the city by some nervous panicky driver, causing comic highjinks. So, is it fair to say that Solondz is being, himself, unfair, for employing a similar distortion here?


I didn't take the political elements from the abortion arc as you did. To me, the abortion arc was more of the mom pushing Aviva into getting one and then something happens and totally ends her childbearing abilities. Like, if the mother had listened (really) to her daughter and let her keep the baby, she would have had her grandchild that she later cries about losing due to Aviva's hysterectomy.

Yes. And here's why: the question of abortion is pretty damned central to women's status as human beings, and to their very survival: every country in which abortion is illegal has much higher maternal death rates, and all you have to do is check out stats by the World Health Organization to confirm this. It's a right women have fought long and hard to be able to gain, and in this country it's being attacked from all sides (and the movie did explore the way this is attacked, in the callous murder of abortion doctors -- although I wonder what Solondz is trying to say when the true tragedy is **SPOILER WARNING** that the bullet hits the child instead, implying that the real problem with murdering doctors is mainly that you might not succeed in killing your intended target?)


Oh no...absolutely not. He does hit the doctor and again, TO ME, the doctor represented different sides of humanity just as the changes to Aviva represent the same. I mean during the day, he is performing abortions (or murdering babies, depending on what side you sit on) yet at night, he is the loving father with adoring children. Two polar opposites, really.

Anyway, I digress. Why do I say that it's unfair of Solondz to join on the bandwagon of how nearly every single movie, song, or TV show treats abortion? Abortion is treated, in these art forms, as either a) unspeakable, meaning, literally, the option is never mentioned even when the pregant woman is too young, too unstable, too selfish, etc, to have a baby; b) okay, you're allowed to say it's a woman's right, but only as long as you don't exercise it (see Sex and the City, Good in Bed, etc) or c) on the rare, rare occasion that a character has one, it has to leave her with emotional scars (Six Feet Under, Nine Lives) or physical scars (21 Grams) or destroy her fertility altogether (Palindromes). And yet, if women didn't have the right to have abortion, without fear or shame, it would be reducing them to slaves of their own bodies. This is a right that's fiercely under attack from people who don't even think women have the right to birth control. (Find me an anti-abortion organization that supports birth control, and I'll eat my hat. Not even "Feminists" for "Life" supports it.) And yet look how it gets eroded and attacked in the cultural sphere! To make my point, imagine if, in 1973, divorce had finally been made legal, and women's right to live with a husband of their choosing, rather than being forced by the government to remain married when they no longer wanted to be, had only just been granted. Now imagine that every movie that ever touched on the subject of divorce portrayed it as unspeakable, or a right that should never ever actually be exercised, or as something that will always scar a woman physically or emotionally! Not one movie in which a woman finally gets the courage to leave a stifling or abusive marriage and for whom divorce is a liberating thing.


I am pro-choice. I have even made an appointment for an abortion, but didn't follow through. I have also had a miscarriage. I am not an overly sappy or emotional person. An abortion CAN leave these types of issues. Does it always? Of course not. But the experience is real and relevant.


I will have to leave the rest of my response til later. Off to watch The Big Lebowski! lol

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The "abortion --> hysterectomy" development is a major plot line in the film. However, because it's in keeping with movies' squeamishness with abortion (if a character has one, she has to "pay" for it in some way, by having emotional or physical anguish afterwards, even though the vast majority of women having abortions don't have those experiences) Solondz unfortunately has to play with reality in order to accomplish it.
The doctor is shown telling her parents that she had a hysterectomy done on her without her knowledge while she was under anesthesia from the abortion. She is shown waking up in the clinic, and her parents elect not to tell her, and as the movie progresses we see that she never finds out. But there are several reasons why this is impossible: 1) A hysterectomy is major surgery - the little storefront clinic Aviva is in would never have been able to perform it. She would have been transfered to a hospital. 2) Similarly, the recovery period for a hysterectomy is weeks long - Aviva would have been hospitalized for weeks, and there's no way she would not have noticed the pain she was in, or the surgical scar, or the fact that she was in a hospital. Yet in the movie she is shown walking out of the clinic the same day.


I think it was supposed to be symbolic, not realistic. Those who are pro-choice want women to have control over their own body but she didn't have any control over hers. It goes to show that things aren't so black and white as both sides would want you to think. To keep screen time down, they had to have the consequences come pretty quick, I suppose.


So, even though the kind of complications of abortion as portrayed in the film are extremely rare (much more rare than complications of actual birth, by the way, especially for a 12-year-old like Aviva), Solondz chose to use this as his arc. Why?


So if something is rare, it shouldn't be in a movie?

the question of abortion is pretty damned central to women's status as human beings, and to their very survival: every country in which abortion is illegal has much higher maternal death rates, and all you have to do is check out stats by the World Health Organization to confirm this.


Well that begs a few questions. What about abortions performed on healthy mothers and babies? Are abortions illegal in these countries even in cases of life and death for the mother? And you also have to take other factors into consideration, like quality of prenatal care. You have to address these other issues first before you make a claim like that. Maybe you have a point, but nobody who doesn't already agree with you will take you seriously unless you do a little more work than that.

Anyway, I digress. Why do I say that it's unfair of Solondz to join on the bandwagon of how nearly every single movie, song, or TV show treats abortion? Abortion is treated, in these art forms, as either a) unspeakable, meaning, literally, the option is never mentioned even when the pregant woman is too young, too unstable, too selfish, etc, to have a baby; b) okay, you're allowed to say it's a woman's right, but only as long as you don't exercise it (see Sex and the City, Good in Bed, etc) or c) on the rare, rare occasion that a character has one, it has to leave her with emotional scars (Six Feet Under, Nine Lives) or physical scars (21 Grams) or destroy her fertility altogether (Palindromes).



Maybe that's because it's very hard, if not impossible, to make a good movie where a woman becomes pregnant, has an abortion and all is well. What's a stake for her if she goes through with the abortion? How has this abortion changed her? Why tell the story in the first place? If the answer to her problem is obvious, why tell the story? It can be done in books, if the abortion is just a small side plot. Books can go off on tangents. And my guess is if you'd read a book with abortion as a tangent, you'd forget about it, especially if nothing too horrible happened as a result because the book would only reinforce your beliefs and there would be no reason to remember it. It's harder to have a movie (that's not a blatant piece of political work) where a woman is unexpectedly pregnant, takes care of the problem and that's that. There's no time in a movie for events that don't have much impact on the characters. In a TV show, it's probably impossible because there's even less time. Imagine a TV show where someone gets pregnant, worries about it all through the episode, and then decides to have an abortion and that's that. Can you imagine it at all? What was the point of watching that episode? And if such an episode did exist, you'd forget about it in a second anyway because it was boring, and didn't make you think. Maybe you only remember the movies where something bad happens as a result of an abortion (or where no abortion takes place) because these shows, movies, whatever were actually interesting and/or got you thinking.

Besides, she wasn't punished for choosing to have an abortion. She didn't choose to have an abortion. The decision was really made for her. Even those who are pro-choice are against women and girls being forced to have abortions so what exactly is your problem with a forced abortion ending badly? Did you want her to have a forced abortion and everything to turn out swell? Are you that convinced that it was the right thing, in which case, why aren't you still convinced? Either the mother made the best choice she could have made at the time or she made a bad decision. It's really very simple. If you're right, and it was the right thing to do, it would remain the best choice, no matter what happened, but the fact that you doubt its rightness proves there's no simple answer.

As for Sex and the City, who knows, maybe they had good aesthetic reasons not to include abortion in their comedy. So long as the characters have a choice, what does it matter if they choose to keep the baby? Isn't the show still pro-choice? Or are you just pro-abortion, and not pro-choice?

In 90210, there was an episode or two where Andrea tries to get an abortion. She does not get an abortion in the end, but that's probably because Gabrielle Carteris was pregnant at the time and the only reason they made Andrea pregnant was to accommodate the actress's pregnancy. They knew from the beginning that Andrea had to have the baby, but they still had her seek out an abortion which shows they were very mindful of reality. They didn't have to go that far, but they did.

I can't speak for any other shows because I haven't seen them. I will say that any comedies that only briefly mention abortion, if at all, do so most likely because there's nothing more unfunny than abortion.



Back to Palindromes: The main tragedy in Aviva's life, as portrayed in the film, is not that she's a 12-year-old girl who has no other ambitions in life but to be a mother -- something which, societally, is a major, major problem. No, this is lost in the wave of horror Solondz gives her. The main problem isn't that he callously manipulated facts about biology to do it, although that's a sign that he's got an agenda. The main problem is this: Solondz wanted to make a film in which abortion, even when it's clearly the right choice (this girl is in no way mature enough to be a mother, and carrying the pregnancy to term is risky for a 12-year-old) is terribly harmful and turns the girl into a runaway, a murderer, a lost soul. She has a desire which is a sign of how young girls are devalued in this society -- again, think of how from a very young age she thinks that her only validation is to be a mother -- and yet, when she is saved from having her terrible wish fulfilled, that destroys her. Given the terrible things that happen to her as (Solondz argues) are a result of her abortion, it would've been better to have become a mother at age 12. Waaaait a minute -- what kind of a *beep*ing argument is that to make? Either a) Solondz agrees with that, which would cast a pretty bad light on whether he thinks women should aspire to be anything other than mothers, or b) what's more likely, he thinks both paths are equally *beep*ed up, and there's simply no hope at all for young girls like Aviva.


Well there's certainly no hope if a girl wants to be a mother so badly and her parents' only response to that is to get her an abortion and then act as if nothing ever happened. The parents aren't helping her at all. They're ignoring the real issue and focusing on the surface problem. They're sweeping everything under the rug, acting like they can get their daughter an abortion and all will be well, forgetting what got their daughter there in the first place.


And the pro-choice side? Their only portrayal is Ellen Barkin, shown as being materialistic (it's as if there is no moral argument for not having a child when you don't want to, and the only arguments Solondz allows her to make are callous, shallow materialistic ones).


I thought this was realistic. Solondz has been quoted as saying that he hated the fact that in the movie Vera Drake, the nobleness of the cause was taken for granted. He said he wants there to be questions asked, not just acceptance that what one does is the right thing. And I think that might be partly why he had Joyce be materialistic. She claims that the abortion was the right thing for her to do, and everyone always feels their motivations are strong, when really, looking at someone from the outside in, they may seem completely greedy and shallow. We always feel that we do things with good intentions in mind, but just because we feel our intentions are good, that doesn't mean others will think so. Joyce had to be flawed. Her motives had to be questionable, otherwise the movie wouldn't make you think. There's nothing I hate more than a movie that's obviously rooting for a particular political side.

And I find it very strange that you feel Mama Sunshine's family was portrayed as better than the pro-choice Joyce in the movie (you forgot the murdered pro-choice doctor, by the way, who never did anything wrong, that we know of, if you believe that abortion is a sanctified right). Mama Sunshine's husband was a murderer. Sure, he might have been a good person...had he not been a murderer. Ted Bundy would have been a fantastic person...had he not been a serial killer. I mean, come on. The husband set up the murder of an abortionist (in pro-choice speak, he was responsible for the death of a completely innocent man). Even many, if not most, pro-life people would be horrified at what the pro-life husband did---he committed a disgusting crime by most anyone's standards. I was absolutely sickened. There was nothing in the movie to suggest that the abortionist deserved to be killed. What his murderer and an accomplice say about it does not count. The audience is expected to know better than them. And Mama Sunshine was teaching her kids how to be judgmental. Did you forget about the story she told of her legless daughter who ran away from home? What would drive a legless girl to run away from such a "safe haven"? Isn't that daughter, then, a lot like Aviva? There's no reason to suspect that Mama Sunshine's family is better than Aviva's. In this movie, like in real life, everyone is flawed and everyone thinks they're better than everyone else and in that way, they have very similar basic human traits. They're not exactly the same, but they are human and they think they're so right and everyone else is wrong. And even if they say they want to change, that doesn't mean they will.


And so, in what turned out to be a longer post than I meant, ultimately this movie is making a pretty backward argument about women, and hopes for any kind of liberating vision, and a pretty retrograde argument about abortion. He probably meant well, but he makes a fatal assumption to start with: he thinks that, since there are two sides to this argument, they both must be equally wrong and equally right. Not always, Solondz -- there are "two sides" to the debate over whether Black people are intellectually inferior, and there are "two sides" to the debate over whether global warming exists or it's just some strange invention by thousands upon thousands of scientists. But those "two sides" are ... right, and wrong. It's the same here.


The whole pro-choice stance is founded on the idea that you can't legislate morality (and with moral issues, opinions differ). The very logic behind the argument is that there's no fixed right or wrong answer for all situations. From what I gather, by being pro-choice, you're embracing the idea that there are shades of grey and that different factors complicate the matter and that it's up to the woman to decide what's right for her. All this movie is saying is that things are complicated and that there's not always a perfect solution that everyone can get a handle on. That's what Solondz is trying to say. He's not trying to say that sometimes abortion is necessary. He's not even trying to say that abortion is wrong under all circumstances. If those were his messages, he would have made an entirely different movie, but those are not the messages he wanted to give. He wanted to show life in all its messiness. To me, that's a far more interesting story than a politically-driven one.

This sucks worse than I Heart Huckabees ----Stewie Griffin

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