Isabel commits suicide to stop Mammon from entering the world and gets sent to hell for it.
Constantine commits suicide (for a second time!) to stop Mammon from entering the world, and Satan frees Isabel when he doesn't have to, and John gets to go to heaven?
Two gaping plot holes, one nested inside the other - another someone can explain the different destinations and Satan's freeing Isabel.
"In the middle of my BACKSWING?!"
John commits suicide because lucifer is always said to personally go to earth and collect john. Satan takes his son out of isabel and makes him go back to hell. Why should he care about isabel? He doesnt need to kill her or take her. He is sure of winning the war anyway so he will have her soul since he believes so. Satan frees her because john warned him of his sons intentions. Satan has principles and feels he deserves constantine something. In satan lore, he was once an angel so he has some sense of fairness still.
John gets to go to heaven because he sacrificed his soul for isabel. He gave his life for another.
Hollywood Will Eat Itself.
DorianGrei, Isabel was the twin that jumped off the building and killed herself not the one that harboured Mammon.
John requested that Isabel be sent to heaven to show the he is a good guy deep down. It's quite a simply message really.
To answer the op, Satan is depicted as being honourable. We know this as he is shown to stick to the rule of not interfering directly in the outcome of the world.
Thus he feels that he owes Constantine for the Mammon business, so when Constantine makes his simple request it is granted.
I hope that's straightened things out.
No. I'm sorry but it makes no sense to me.
Isabel suicides to stop Mammon and goes to hell.
Constantine suicides to stop Mammon and goes to heaven.
Suicide equates with Gabriel's statement: "You're f**ed." Lucy's honor has nothing to do with Heaven's Judgement - God says you are unworthy of Heaven ergo you are going to Hell.
I am sorry but it makes no sense to me, that two people doing the same action for the same reason have two different outcomes.
Aside from the plot need.
"In the middle of my BACKSWING?!"
Isabel don't suicide to stop Mammon, she does for all the things she knew it was going to happen (the visions of the things Mammon it was going to to with the earth) just like Constantine in his first attempt, his second attempt was different he does to save Angela's body and Isabel's soul.
When he asks to Lucifer for the freedom of Isabel's soul his suidice becomes in sacrifice so he have the chance to go to heaven.
Helps for you?
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Finally the flesh reflects the madness within
Maybe this will explain it better this is off Wiki:
"Gabriel throws Constantine from the room and begins to release Mammon. As Gabriel goes to stab Angela with the Spear and release Mammon, Constantine slits his wrists. Time stops and Lucifer, who hates Constantine enough to collect his soul personally, arrives. Constantine tells Lucifer about Mammon’s plan and Lucifer sends Mammon back to Hell to keep Mammon from conquering Earth before him. Gabriel attempts to smite Lucifer, but is relieved of its holy powers and defeated.
In return for helping Lucifer, Constantine asks that Isabel be allowed to go to Heaven. Lucifer happily obliges but as Lucifer drags Constantine to Hell, Heaven appears before him. By sacrificing himself for Isabel, Constantine may enter Heaven. Infuriated, Lucifer heals Constantine’s wounds and cures him of his cancer so Constantine may prove that he belongs in Hell."
Someone already explained why Lucifer lets Isabel go. So Constantine going to heaven wasn't Lucifer's action. Constantine was being dragged to hell already, but I guess because of his good deed, Constantine was redeemed and allowed entry to heaven by God.
Constantine did not commit suicide to get to heaven, it was to get Mammon's dad to come down and deal with his son. He was basically telling the father what the son was doing, so he would take him home, haha.
Constantine got into Heaven, because at the last minute, he sacrificed himself. His eternal soul for Isabel. It was really two birds with one stone, cos (1) Isabel goes to Heaven. (2) He might as well try his luck with this redemption/sacrifice thing.
It worked!
From a purely dogmatic point of view, how would Satan be able to get Isabel in to heaven? You are sent to hell by God, not the other way around. While Satan may be happy to free her, it seems odd that he would have the ability to grant her salvation. Any theologians care to comment?
shareI dont think Satan is happy to free anyone from his dominion. He wants suffering for as long as he can, to as many souls as possible. So in letting her go, he was just abiding by the "rules" of the "game" whatever they are, pre-established through divine means, and that goes outside of the context of this movie and even the bible itself.
Also, in this case, there is the very quizzical notion of promises. Satan made a promise and he actually kept it, in hindsight, he got tricked. It's all very funny, really. And for him to play by the rules, even when he realised he had been tricked, that really makes me question the whole Satan thing.
This was a humanist/rennaissance Satan, lets put it at that.
Technically, I'm with you on this one. One of the reasons I liked Constantine was because it was more than just a "monster" movie; it delved into spiritual and theological themes. In the movie (as well as in life), once you commit suicide, you turn against God's plan for you, and you therefore divorce yourself from Him, which free will allows you to do, but is ultimately not in your best interests (as Isabel found out). It wouldn't be in Satan's power to countermand God's will, so no, he couldn't send Isabel to heaven. But, it's also just a movie, so we're not supposed to over-think it.
share(singsong) "You're not helping!" -- Sorry, could not resist a Rachel Weisz quote from another movie....
1) Isabel knew what would happen if Mammon got loose
1a) Aside from being a devout Catholic, she probably had visions
2) Isabel kills herself to stop Mammon
3) Isabel gets sentenced to Hell
1) John knows what will happen if Mammon gets loose
1a) He is well-versed in the After Days, as well as having been to Hell itself
2) John kills himself to stop Mammon
2a) Lucifer gives a freebie and lets Isabel go to Heaven
3) John, already Hell-bound, gets sentenced to Heaven
Am I suppose to believe that Constantine, after many schemes across the years of trying to buy his way into Heaven, has suddenly had a completely pure impulse of sacrificing Lucifer's boon for someone else? That the thought never crossed his mind that this particular sacrifice would finally get him through the Gates?
Am I suppose to believe that Lucifer feels he owes Constantine anything? John killed himself to save his world (the same thing Isabel did), and got what he wanted. Lucifer got what he wanted - by stopping Mammon he can continue his bet.
From the way I see it, it is Lucifer who should get God's blessing. He had no reason to let Isabel go yet he did. Constantine should still be Hell-bound for the unforgivable sin of committing suicide - twice.
"In the middle of my BACKSWING?!"
Silknight you do have a point.
However if we discuss the facts of the movie (not religion in real life) it really does work out and this is how it goes:
1. Isabel commits suicide to save the world
2. Isabel goes to hell.
1. John commits suicide to save the world
2. John "gets going" to hell.
1. Lucifer offers John a freebie (an extension or something else ...) for his services
2. John does not take the extension cause he knows he is *beep* anyway so he asks for Isabel's freedom
2a. Lucifer grants the wish
3. John gets saved because he does a selfless deed which he did not have to do and is offered heaven.
4. Lucifer heals John so he can earn his way back to hell again, but that's just Lucifer acting desperate.
So in all of this I do agree that Lucifer is the all around good guy. He does all the good deeds anyway. But John and Isabel are the ones who get him to act in that course of action so that's why they get the credit.
At the end (although I hate it when this is said to me :D) this is only a movie in which Satan has a son as well as God having a son of his own. So may I ask in what sort of way did either of them reproduce?!?
This is fiction and the truth is somewhere in the middle. You have to figure out what's right and what's wrong for your self and then try to stick with it hoping that you're actually right :D
It looks like Constantine sacrifices himself not so much to save Isabel or Angela but to save the world. We are told over and over that if Mammon breaks through to the mundane plane, then (literally) all hell will break loose on Earth. By the time Constantine cuts his wrists, he is out of other options to prevent that. His sidekick Chas is dead, Angela is helpless and Gabriel has gone rogue, conspiring with Mammon to bring him through for Gabriel's own twisted reasons. By killing himself Constantine gains the time to talk to Satan (since for him time almost stops), and he figures (correctly) that Satan will not be happy at his son's attempts to overturn the ancient settlement between heaven and hell. (He also figures that it will be Satan himself who comes to collect him, giving him the chance to talk to him at once.)
Satan himself seems a little dubious of the prospects for damning Constantine even at first (he says to Constantine: "I didn't think you'd make the same mistake twice - and you didn't"). That's why he's willing to make a side deal about Isabel. By freeing Isabel, he thinks he confirms Constantine's damnation. (Incidentally, the short pause where Satan looks up at the sky as he considers Constantine's offer seems to be so he can contact God and make sure that the deal will actually be acceptable in heaven).
Of course, it doesn't work out as Satan planned. Constantine's willingness to kill himself to save the world is genuine altruism, so far as anything in the movie tells us. Of course, sacrificing yourself for a greater good is not necessarily suicide in the moral sense. This is why Constantine starts going to heaven after Satan takes care of Gabriel and Mammon (not because of what he did for Isabel, good though that may have been). His account is finally in the clear. *Then* Satan frantically works to cure Constantine's cancer and keep him alive. That way he keeps Constantine on Earth and gets another crack at damning him.
In terms of Catholic theology (and the movie only makes even a sort of theological sense on a Catholic basis) much of the above is of course nonsense. But then -- it's a movie. On its own terms the logic makes perfect sense.
the big difference is that Constantine isnt granted entrance to heaven because he stopped mammon, its because he traded his soul for isabel´s, its actually pretty simple, apart from that isabel killed herself she saw creatures and thought she was going mad. Where the hell do say that she did it to stop mammon?
shareit seems, that you are a moron, there is nowhere in the movie said that Isabel killed herself to stop Mammon from entering the world !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
shareYour "plot holes" hinge on your assumption that Isabel killed herself in order to stop Mammon. Are you sure that's why she did it?
shareCan none of you people remember what Rachel Weisz's character's name was?! You all keep calling both twins Isabel and refer to both of them as Isabel because you can't just back-click to the main page and find her damn name. Jeez!
shareYou all keep calling both twins IsabelWho's "you all"? Only one person in the thread got the twins mixed up. share
Has anyone said her name? You apparently can't even remember it. Not one person has mentioned her name correctly in the entire thread.
shareAbout three people have mentioned her by name so far. Might want to go back and read slower.
Or better yet, find something more important to complain about.
Your "plot holes" hinge on your assumption that Isabel killed herself in order to stop Mammon. Are you sure that's why she did it?
If it were simply because Isabelle felt she was going mad, why would he leave the secret message for her sister...pointing her to the Cor. verse in the Dark Bible about how Mammon would be able to take over the Earth. She knew that he needed a "powerful psychic" and she was it to serve as a sort of vessel for him...Maybe she thought killing herself would stop him, while leaving the verse for her sister to find to warn her as Mammon/Gabriel would come after her....
shareActually I think she did know...remember when she left that "secret message" on the window of the hospital room...she quoted a verse in the "Dark Bible" (I guess that is what it is called)...depicting the coming of Mammon....why would she write that verse for her sister to find, if she had know idea what was going on (and she was simply going mad)....
sharedid you watch the movie ??? Isabel killed her self, because she had enough, not to stop Mammon from entering the world !!!!!!!
shareWatched the movie, read the screenplay and the book. Izzie-wizzie jumped off the roof because she knew Mammon needed a powerful psychic to enter our world. Being dead kinda chuffed that plan up a bit for ole Mam's.
Also; there's proof she knew about the whole plot because she left her secret-twin suicide message for Angie in fingerprint grease on her window. Just being crazy does not explain how she knew about specific passages in a book that doesn't exist on our plain of existence.
Luci' sent her to heaven because the last thing anyone wants is to owe a favour to someone you hate. It wasn't difficult to get her there, since existencially; Hell is #outside of God's presence#. He simply threw her out of Hell, ta-daa; she's in Heaven.
Better to have what you don't need, than need what you don't have. - my proverb.
OK guys I think I've figured it out.
Things are not cut and dried. Both heaven and hell aren't final destinations impossible to escape, they are more like opium dens where the dope never runs out.
Isabel committed suicide largely to prevent the return of mammon, but it was still suicide and God deemed she deserved to go to hell anyway. Call it one hell of a technicality.
BUT that's not the end, Isabel continues to live in hell, and when John goes into hell Isabel calls out his name and arguably gives him evidence of her being there (for her sisters benefit). Isabel also is able to communicate with her sister from hell when she whispers "Constantine", there's no other explanation for what happens on that video except it was a direct communication from hell by Isabel to her psychic twin.
Also notice Isabel in hell, she isn't being devoured by demons but instead is dressed in white in the same clothes and seems to be eternally reliving her sacrifice/suicide. What this tells us is Isabel isn't suffering very much in hell because she doesn't fully belong there, she only got there largely due going overboard with her wanting to stop the apocalypse.
This probably explains why Satan has no problems with letting Isabel go from hell, she didn't really belong there in the first place, and wasn't suffering much at all. This also makes it probable that Isabel knew about Constantine and was relying on him to bring her back from hell.
Two gaping plot holes, one nested inside the other
Suicide is a mortal sin.
Both Isabel and Constantine are condemned to hell for it. The only reason why Constantine got out the first time was because he was saved by being resuscitated. But he knew that when he died, he would go back.
Isabel possibly attempting to prevent the Mammon plot was no excuse for her act. Because it is considered a loss of faith. She lost faith in God.
In many myths, stories and parables, Satan is portrayed as a being who likes to stick to agreements. Granted he tries to push the agreements in his favor but he still honors the outcome.
Constantine told him about his son's deal with Gabriel. As part of his code, Lucifer granted him a favor. That was how Isabel was released. We don't know if she went to heaven or is wandering around limbo. It depends if Satan contacted heaven when he released her.
Constantine was granted absolution because he did not plea for himself. He sacrificed his soul to save another. Satan again interceded because Constantine didn't prove himself worthy of this absolution. So Constantine lives with his fate still up for grabs.
Lucifer specifically asks if Constantine wants Isabel to be let into heaven, there's no reason to assume she went to limbo.
shareLucifer had to intervene first hand for Isabel. He specifically had to request clemency. That is a big deal, especially for the King of the damned. He considered Constantine worth all that trouble.
It seems Constantine outplayed Lucifer in that as well. He egged Lucifer into getting her into heaven. Lucifer could have just released her and she would go to limbo.