MovieChat Forums > Constantine (2005) Discussion > Absolution plothole?

Absolution plothole?

posted 13 years ago by dobraye_utra
20 replies | jump to latest

Just watched the film (whilst reading the book) and something occured to me when John does the last-rites bit on Balthazaar.

He points out that being 'half' human, Balthazaar could be forgiven and thereby granted entrance into heaven. Afterwards, he notes that you have to ask for forgiveness to receive it...

My thought is: if Constantine knows this; why doesn't he go to a church, get absolved by the priest/other officiator, and get his free pass back into Heaven?

Colour me stupid flavoured here, since I'm not exactly well-versed on the religiosity angle, but that seems to be the way it works.

Better to have what you don't need, than need what you don't have. - my proverb.

[–] physics101 13 years ago

My thought is: if Constantine knows this; why doesn't he go to a church, get absolved by the priest/other officiator, and get his free pass back into Heaven?

Isn't that the plot of Dogma?

[–] dobraye_utra 13 years ago

Sort of; though my familiarity with the plenary indulgence loophole is pretty fuzzy.

Though I doubt Constantine getting into Heaven would be a reversal of God's decree, and would therefore destroy the universe...

Better to have what you don't need, than need what you don't have. - my proverb.

[–] SwampThang 13 years ago

If you commit suicide but are resuscitated and survive, did you really commit suicide? Did you really commit that unforgivable sin. I want to say no.

It would be attempted suicide at most, which I would think is not a sin.

[–] dobraye_utra 12 years ago

Well according to the story he did succeed, since he was 'dead', for several minutes.

Better to have what you don't need, than need what you don't have. - my proverb.

[–] bsharporflat 12 years ago

If you commit suicide but are resuscitated and survive, did you really commit suicide? Did you really commit that unforgivable sin. I want to say no.

Erm..nice try. But the answer is yes. If you kill someone or rape a virgin and God brings them back to life or restores her hymen, you are still a murderer or a rapist.

If you try to kill yourself and it results in your death, you committed suicide. No way around it.

[–] king_of_bob 11 years ago

If you were dead, then yes, you succeeded in killing yourself. Whether your revived or not is not relevant. Pretty sure God doesn't make the same allowances as the law, but even attempted suicide is illegal. Suicide is one of very few crimes you can be jailed for failing to commit.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

[–] nihilister 11 years ago

He has no faith (which in my opinion is a bigger plothole) , therefore he doesnt seem to give a s..t about being saved or going to hell etc. Etc...

[–] king_of_bob 11 years ago

It isn't actually a plot hole. He KNOWS that Heaven and Hell exist. He can't have faith in something he KNOWS to be true.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

[–] alvaro-jneto-684-642758 10 years ago

That's not what faith is, so no, you're wrong.

[–] king_of_bob 10 years ago

Yes, it is. Faith is belief in something without evidence(or in spite of). Knowing and believing are not the same thing.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

[–] alvaro-jneto-684-642758 10 years ago

That's a limited secular (for lack of better word in my limited vocabulary) explanation of faith, which doesn't really fit the faith of any religious tradition I am aware of. Once you see, you still have faith in what you see. These are not mutually exclusive occurrences.

[–] king_of_bob 10 years ago

No, that's the definition of faith as used in the movie. They go with definition 2 and 8.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

Once you see, you still have faith in what you see.

False. Again, knowing and believing are not the same thing. The world is basically round, this isn't a belief, it's a known fact. Similarly, Constantine knows heaven and hell exist. It's a known fact to him. He knows it to be true, he doesn't have to believe.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

[–] alvaro-jneto-684-642758 10 years ago

A simple logical exercise will give a conclusion all statisticians and all the Greek philosophers have come to know: there is no such thing as absolute certainty. Your claim that this notion is false only shows you haven't thought it through.

I'm sure you will highlight the circularity inherent in my statement, which will serve as positive evidence that you have at least begun to engage the concept consciously.

Nonetheless, at what point do they go with definition 2? I can't remember it. Neither can I, from the top of my head, recollect any point in which the Bible states that faith ceases the moment material manifestations are recognised.

[–] king_of_bob 11 years ago

You can't be absolved of suicide. It's a mortal sin for which there is no forgiveness.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

[–] dobraye_utra 11 years ago

According to a -somewhat- modern church ruling; suicide can be absolved if the person has some form of mental problem.

I wonder if the church would consider being a 'seer' a mental problem?

"Kids, cover your ears. Hey Joker: F-" Jack

[–] always_keep_fighting 11 years ago

I would think that if anyone commits suicide, there is something wrong with them mentally. That's my opinion. If God condemns someone to an eternity in Hell because they could not live with whatever reality HE GAVE THEM, then you can bet Hell will be a lot more crowded than Heaven.
God sure is picky; he gives us all these little rules and regulations, then if we don't confess or buy our way out of their sins, off to Hell we go. I'm calling bulls--t. If He's a kind and loving God, then He understands our weaknesses and does not condemn us for them. If He's the school bully and sends us to Hell with no regard for our reasons for committing these sins, we'd all better get used to the idea of going to Hell. At least a lot of our friends will be there.

[–] tj_mower 11 years ago

This is not true. Any sin can be forgiven if you repent and ask forgiveness. IMO that's the plothole here. However, as someone pointed out, John has no faith, so that could be standing in the way of his forgiveness.

[–] king_of_bob 11 years ago

This is not true. Any sin can be forgiven if you repent and ask forgiveness.

You're wrong, actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin

Besides which, you have to be genuinely sorry for the sin you're asking forgiveness for. I saw no indication that John felt bad about trying to kill himself aside from the fact that he learned it condemned him to hell.

Prof. Farnsworth: Oh. A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!

[–] David_Bro 11 years ago

Did you read the whole article?

[–] alvaro-jneto-684-642758 10 years ago

Which was a impactful, yet simplistic way of reflecting Man's condition.

But to give you an analogy: have you ever apologised in word only? Having done something you know rationally to be wrong, but feeling as if it is right?

Constantine was "cursed" - as he put it - with seeing things he should not have to see. He was completely bitter towards God. Any apology from him would have been in words only.