Was Ray Immoral?

Many times throughout the movie it is shown that Ray does care about Mirabelle more than an 'independent free love manipulative guy' ever would.

He stands by her when she's really down with depression (something a jerk would never do for a "booty call"), gives her thoughtful gifts and sincere compliments, and uses his money to make up for what he could not give her completely: himself.

Ray pursued the relationship not because he was stringing her along; we could see he could have other women, if he wanted (and hotter and more "liberal" ones, too: the kind any independent free love guy loves the most); but he did so because he did love her, as he clearly states in the end.

However, he was an aging sexagenarian, dating a woman even he considered to be too young for him, and probably thought keeping his distance would be best for both: it would be best for her, who would not get attached to a man whose time is running out, losing the best years of her life in the process (while she could be meeting a more suitable life partner instead); and it would be better for him, who would not get attached to a younger woman who could meet an attractive younger guy at any moment, and leave him too old to be hurt like that.

In a way, Ray sacrificed his own happiness to give her the chance of a more complete happiness than the one she could have with him (in his mind). When he said they should keep their options open, he really did also mean to keep her options open, even though she didn't think like that.

Granted, that was not entirely his decision to make, but he was a complex character, a sensitive man, and we didn't get a lot of backstory on him. He could have been dealt a severe blow earlier in life which could further compound to the way he kept her at bay.

The reason he was not entirely clear on that was likely because he wanted it to be ambiguous. He wanted her, but he thought he couldn't have her as he would like. So why let something with no future (in his eyes) become something serious? But still he wanted to be with her.

Also, he could use that ambiguity later if necessary as a consolation for himself as to why she left him (if she had). It was unclear enough that at first she interpreted it in one way (the way she wanted to), but she could easily take it the way he said he meant, if it ever came a moment for her to want to do that. In that case, he could always come back to that "speech" as a reminder that that's what he wanted in the first place, so he couldn't complain. It could be used to numb the pain.

One sign that this was the case is that he felt terribly guilty after sleeping with someone else, and had so much respect for her that he just told her about it because she deserved to know. Remember he said he thought it was gonna be OK. Why would he think so?

1. He didn't think he had real feelings for her.

2. He had told her that it wasn't supposed to be serious and they should keep their options open

i.e.: He thought he was being a "free love kind of guy" and being honest about it, so there was no harm. When her companion asks if he's seeing someone, he answers "Yes. ...no...".

If those conditions were true, then yes, it would have been ok. But it turned out not to be ok. He realized he had real feelings for her, and, most important, he didn't really feel so casual about their relationship at all.

But he was still an aging old man in love with a 20-something year old. The conditions that motivated his choices and behavior in the first place hadn't changed. So what could he do? Just try and make the best of their time together until a more appropriate opportunity would come along (for her, too), secretly hoping this day would never come.

So no, I don't think there's any possibility that Ray was just using her, and even less that he was "immoral". I really don't see interpretation as a "somewhat liberal" mindset at all. Sounds more like a very judgmental viewpoint stained by sexism and religious bigotry. But it doesn't just show in your comment. There are people here defending Ray but with similar viewpoints, but going in the opposite direction. Prejudice, sexism and religion run (and hurt) deep.

I see your point, but I did not find Ray to be immoral because he was not cheating on his spouse. I don't find it immoral that an older man dates a younger woman. And frankly, Ray's "speech" to Mirabelle was filled with red flags that she might have caught, had she been paying attention. For example, when a man like that says "I'm not looking for anything permanent right now", he usually means "I just want a friend with benefits." Some may call it immoral or misleading, but the woman has to read between the lines. Ray may have made the assumption that Mirabelle understood, but she was doing her share of assuming too, as evidenced in her conversation with her friends.

Honestly, I found Ray to be more pitiful than immoral. It was sad to see someone who was so in denial and out of touch with their emotions. I think it was clear that Ray loved Mirabelle, but obviously he couldn't face this fact until after it was too late. However, at least he acknowledged it and apologized. I loved the fact that in spite of Ray's emotional shortcomings, he was still able to recognize and learn from his mistakes. It showed character on his part; something I did not see in Bob and Charlotte from "Lost In Translation."

Thus, I HATE it when people compare this movie to "LIT." They are not the same at all! Ray and Mirabelle are both single adults and there is nothing wrong with their relationship other than the major miscommunication between them. But Bob and Charlotte are both married, so their relationship is adulterous and immoral. While Ray and Mirabelle both grew from their experience, each becoming a better person in the end, Bob and Charlotte remained unchanged to the end: self-centered and unrepentant. They clearly had no remorse for what they'd done to their spouses, yet the movie glorified Bob and Charlotte as heroes, patting them on the back simply because they didn't take their affair to a physical level. BFD! They *still* cheated AND they didn't even have enough conscience to regret it. Frankly, I found them to be almost sociopathic in that regard. I certainly didn't find either of them likable.

To sum up, I think it's pretty clear that I preferred Shopgirl. LOL

Whether I find Ray immoral is actually a tough question. I don't think that Ray is immoral for the reasons that many people seem to think. I don't think that dating a much younger woman, who is in fact an adult, is immoral. I also don't think that wanting a sexual relationship without emotional committment is immoral as long as he is honest about it. I think that my problem with Ray is that he was conveniently "honest" with her after he charmed and romanced her, and after he got what he wanted and bed her. In the beginning he wooed her and acted as if he had real interest in her. They didn't sleep together on the first date, and he came across as if he appreciated her in more than just a physical way. He was very charming and seemed almost shy, and he pursued her in an almost old fashioned way. The morning after talk actually shocked me, as did his conversation with his therapist, because I didn't see that coming at all. I can understand how Mirabelle could easily misenterpret his comments, especially since their true meaning wasn't at all what she wanted to believe. It did take some major denial on her part to fall for him the way she did, but despite his openness after their sexual encounter, he had in fact layed the groundwork for an emotional seduction and I think he has some copeability in heartbreak. The naration after their break up also confirms that he consciously chose to keep himself emotionally distant from her, so his coldness is actually calculating. It is obvious that he knows that she cares more for him than he does for her, yet he continues to use her to aleve his loneliness. I don't know if I would technically consider this immoral, but it is definately selfish and opportunistic, not to mention unkind. He claims to have believed that she "understood", but a man of his age and intelligence had to know better. He just knew that by having the talk with her after their first night together that he had created a sort of loophole to allow himself out of feeling guilty. In the end, though, he did feel guilty because he knew that he had not really been honest with her in his actions, nor had he been honest with himself. He may not have been immoral, but I wouldn't say that he was a good guy either. I think he was flawed, as we all are. At the end of the film he realizes that because of his refusal to allow himself to care about her as deeply as he could have, they both suffered a loss.