MovieChat Forums > The Singing Detective (2003) Discussion > This better be good

This better be good

posted 22 years ago by mj-31
28 replies | jump to latest

The original '80s miniseries with Michael Gambon was one of my favourites. I notice many IMDB'ers agree because of the exceptionally high rating it has received (9.4 out of 10, see: http://us.imdb.com/Title?0090521 ).

I would sure hate for them to ruin this story with a bland American version of it.

I noticed they changed the name of the lead character from Philip E. Marlow to Dan Dark. I hope this does not imply that this is going to be a poor rewriting of the original screenplay.

For those who liked The Singing Detective also check out Pennies from Heaven with Bob Hoskins and the sci-fi series Cold Lazarus (which was released after Dennis Potter's death).

[–] lonp 22 years ago

I just got Singing Detective out of our Public lending library for a second view. And have been a huge admirer of Dennis Potter (except for Christabelle)
starting with the original Pennies From Heaven.

But I did not/do not know that the original Pennies From Heaven with Hoskins
ever became available on a video source. Can somebody email me this info if it is correct. I am going to check for Cold Lazarus from the state database of library holdings. Thanks for the news.

As to Robert Downey Jr. being in _anything_ by Potter much less continuing in a Hollywood career for any reason I think is an insult to the good taste and common sense of the viewing public: virtues which have been tested repeatedly for many years anyway.

[–] Cassie-op 22 years ago

Hi,

I find your comments about Robert Downey Jr. to be very unkind. The man has a disease and has suffered much trying to get it under control. Recent court actions have lauded his almost two years of sobriety and the contributions he's made in helping others with the same problems. Life isn't simple, but we can try to be kind to one another. This man is a fantastic actor...just watch Chaplin or Wonderboys or Restoration or Less than Zero or Two Girls and A Guy or Season Four of Ally McBeal to name a few...his timing and intelligence in becoming a character are near genius and his communication with the camera is sublime. Word is already out that Keith Gorden has directed a jewel of a film that has done the Dennis Potter screenplay great justice and that Downey has hit the mark.

I hope you enjoy the film.

[–] BenjCarr 22 years ago

OK, don't be silly.

The reason Downey managed two years of sobriety was because, ahem, he's been in prison most of that time. Drug addiction is a disease, but he's been given chance after chance - and I get the feeling that any lesser-known person would've just been kept in prison at this point.

I hope the film is good. I like Downey as an actor, but, come on, this drug addiction problem is mostly his doing.

[–] webrageous 22 years ago

Just a correction: Mr. Downey was NOT in prison at all during his nearly two years in recovery.

How many chances should a person suffering from drug addiction get? As many as it takes!

He's been doing well. I look forward to seeing this new film.

[–] McGonigle 22 years ago

The reason Downey managed two years of sobriety was because, ahem, he's been in prison most of that time.

And how, exactly, is that supposed to help keep him away from drugs??

BTW, Downey was brilliant in Wonder Boys. He's really a great actor.

[–] mavericketerna-1 22 years ago

<<The reason Downey managed two years of sobriety was because, ahem, he's been in prison most of that time>>

Don't be such a snob. If he sobered up in prison then he sobered up. It doesn't matter how, the point is, he did it. He's clean and even if he isn't, that's none of our damn business is it? Yeah he may have gotten himself into a mess but he's done his best to get out. If he's not sober enough for you then don't watch the damn movie.

"You should have realized, if Voldemort didn't kill you, we would. Goodbye Peter..."

[–] aljv77 17 years ago

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT AN ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY IS????? THIS IS WHY SOME PEOPLE BECOME ALCOHOLICS, DRUG ADDICTS ETC....

SOME PEOPLE CAN TRY SOMETHING ONCE AND NOT HAVE IT TAKE OVER THEIR LIFE. OTHERS BECOME ADDICTED. OF COURSE HE DIDNT HAVE ACCESS TO IT IN JAIL. THAT DOESNT MEAN THAT HE IS NO LONGER ADDICTED TO IT.

IF YOU OR I HAD AN ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY, WE WOULD BE IN THE SAME BOAT AS RDJ.
DONT JUDGE SOMEONE UNTIL YOU HAVE WALKED IN THEIR SHOES FOR AWHILE.

I GIVE RDJ CREDIT FOR RISING ABOVE AND GETTING HIS LIFE BACK TOGETHER. GOOD ON HIM!!!!!

[–] cluelessblonde 22 years ago

I am so with you - why does every one feel the need to criticise his personal life when he is such an amazing actor. Wonderboys is one of the best films ive ever seen and he even makes awful awful films such as One Night Stand watchable - he is great in that travesty actually. Of course the fact he is soooo cute doesn't hurt. He is also a talented singer and songwriter and musician and artist and just about everything else you can imagine so why concentrate on his personal problems? WHy not celebrate his talent and offer him support to help him get over his addictions.

[–] jon5000_66 22 years ago

[–] Boone-4 22 years ago

Both Cold Lazarus and (the far superior) Karaoke were actually made after Potter's death as well, going a little way to dispell the knee-jerk "this will be terrible" brigade. As I understand it the screenplay for Singing Detective was written by Potter himself and has undergone barely any changes whatsoever. Potter himself had worked on a film version off and on for quite some time before his death, so hopefully he had time to get it right! As for the director, Gordon is very accomplished at getting remarkable performances out of surprising actors (Nolte in Mother Night, f'rinstance), and such direction should be befitting to a project that originated on television. Personally I can't wait!

[–] judy48blue 22 years ago

Personally, I can't wait either. Gordon is a good director and Potter is responsible for the script. Downey is an amazing actor and will blow everyone away with his performance. I have heard that the script is a gem!

[–] wordcraft 22 years ago

I hope you are right, Boone-4. Unfortunately the track record of U.S. localisation (Pennies from Heaven and Cracker lurch to mind) is not good, and the prospect of an involved and often harrowing 6 hour 55 minute television series being packaged for a Hollywood 2-hour popcorn slot by an outfit who produced Spice World and Braveheart does not exactly fill me with confidence.

Besides, I'm not sure where you get the stuff about Potter having screenplayed this out as a movie. He is currently getting "story" credit, which means a butcher's cleaver could just as easily have been used on his original. The comparison you offer with the posthumous Karaoke and Cold Lazarus is no more encouraging, either; both these productions were made lovingly by Whistling Gypsy and the Beeb (and Channel 4) and with a group of people who cherished Potter's legacy: Hywel Bennett, for example, got his first big break in a Potter Wednesday Play some thirty years' previously, was also in PFH, and would have probably PAID to be in Karaoke. Can the same be safely said for the makers of the film version?

I don't think the knee-jerking has anything to do with Potter's health; more with the medical staff. But let's hope for the best - at least it might prompt some bright spark to re-release the original and give those Moulin Rouge zealots something half-decent to compare their trashy pop video with.

[–] sidetracked 22 years ago

Hi all,

For what it's worth, I directed this new version, which we premiere at Sundance next month. To be crystal clear: Potter absolutely wrote this script, which I first read, and fell in love with, back in 1993. Whatever changes were made in adapting from the original were his. I wouldn't have touched someone else's version of Potter's work with a ten foot pole.

Potter spoke in interviews before his death about being excited about re-imagining the series as a film; that moving it to America, and changing the time frame let him explore the same story in new ways, and that while some great details and story pieces were of course lost in condensing it to two hours, he hoped that the gain in focus would make it a more subjective and intense experience.

I'm a huge fan of Potter and of the original. When I read this adaptation, I felt he had created something just as special in it's own way. If I it disappoints anyone, I'm sorry. But know that it was done with love, passion and reverence for Potter, his words, his ideas, and his work.

Keith Gordon

[–] judy48blue 22 years ago

Dear Keith, I am thrilled that you answered here. I should think this will set everyone straight on the question of Dennis Potter. I am really looking forward to seeing this film. I am a big fan of Robert Downey Jr and Mel Gibson. Can you tell us what it was like to direct Downey? What do you think of him as an actor? I have a lot of friends who are also really looking forward to seeing this movie and are big fans of Downey too. By the way, I finally watched "The Chocolate War" last month and loved it. Thanks again for setting everyone straight on this point. Good luck at Sundance!

[–] swanjac 22 years ago

Dear Mr.Gordon,this is the first time ive ever used a bulletin board service so please forgive any grammatical errors, its all a bit new to me.
I would like to wish you the very best of luck with this project, clearly from your response, you feel as much passion and commitment to Dennis Potter as the television public of the UK did during his lifetime.
I hope you understand the somewhat pessimistic response of the other respondees....Brit Film and TV has been almost systematically butchered by America when it comes to remakes (not just Brit projects either..French film has also suffered, the dreadful U.S version of the stunning French Nikita springs to mind) and it has to be said..Dennis Potter is a tough writer to convert to American tastes.
I have always believed, The Singing Detective, was the finest piece of Television Ever made, Anywhere, Anytime!
A bold claim i know! but i really do believe it so.
And thats where i think the problem is...you see, how can you improve on perfection?
I admire your courage! What a project you've taken on!
But its these situations i normally ask..."Why" ?
no, not being sarcarstic i swear, but i do wonder WHY do Americans NEED to have perfectly good films re-made with American Actors?
Ive no gripe against Mel Gibson...i saw the guy perform in Hamlet...quite a surprise..its just to us Brits, devoted to the original screenplay, its gonna be a tough conversion job to accept American Accents in a very British story.
I feel Potter is just Too complex for american audiences..hell, it left a lot of Brits confused!
I saw a few respondees mention Cold Lazarus and Karaoke...i felt those particular stories were not quite as polished as his earlier work, i wondered if his illness had taken its toll...the narrative being a bit directionless, although i agree the production team that made it clearly adored Potter.
Pennies from Heaven, with Hoskins, really is a jewel, only surpassed by The singing detective.
"Where the Buffalo Roam" is another early gem from Potter, actually filmed in my home town of Swansea,Wales in 1966 ( i was 2 year old lol) and starred a 22 year old Hywel Bennet.Unusually for location shoot, it was made entirely on Videotape, Black and White of course!!
Sorry if i rambled.
Good Luck with the Singing Detective...if its half as good as the original, it should do well.

[–] sidetracked 22 years ago

Hello,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. Let me respond, not by way of argument, so much as to give a slightly different perspective.

First, remember that the idea of re-telling the story with an 'American accent' was Potter's, and I believe he had specific artistic reasons. The modern detective novel/character/noir film is so rooted in the American psyche, and deals with some of the specific oddnesses of this culture in the 20th century. Among other things, the American obsession with 'answers' to life's complexities, and our ever growing xenophobia and fear of the 'other'. It's no accident that Potter updated the noir sequences to the 50s, when McCarthyism was in full flower, and that those sequences are now more redolant of Sam Fuller and Mickey Spillane than Philip Marlowe. (That also adresses the question of the character's name change, raised in an earlier post). And the American ideal of the 'man alone against the world' spurning intimacy and human contact (again - I don't think it's by accident that Potter isolates the character in a private room in the US version). I think he relished the chance to observe and skewer the US mindset in some of the same ways he did the English.

Second, keep in mind how few people here ever got to see the original, or ever will. I think Potter was hoping to speak to a new generation, and a new audience. We showed the film to his long time agent yesterday, and she was very happy, and said Potter would have been too. And I believe it's for that reason. Or why Potter's children have their names on the film as co-producers. What any artist wants is to comunicate to people, and hopefully this work will introduce his genius to many who may have never heard of him before. If it inspires some to go and get tapes of the original, I'd be thrilled.

Yes, most 'Americanized' remakes have been disasters, but unlike the 'Nikita's' of the world, this is the original creator re-conceiving the piece in a whole new medium, not a 'remake' of a feature film, by someone who had no hand in the first. Had 'Singing Detective' been a play, would you have the same objection in the author rethinking it for film? Also, this film wasn't made with an eye to 'cashing in' on earlier success. We made the film for little money, and I don't think anyone expects to get rich from it!

In many ways I see Potter as more a playwrite than a film maker. And in that vein, (for example), while Olivier's 'Henry V' was brilliant, does that mean that years later Branagh shouldn't have made his version.? Both are valid, and both add something to the world.

As to why I would take this on - what director could resist Potter's mad genius? I knew there would be those who would hate the film no matter what we did. But knowing this is what Potter had wanted, to have the chance to work with words and ideas of this rare wit, quality and intelligence was worth whatever resistance we may encounter.

I hope you like it.

As to Judy's question about Downey - he is indeed a superb actor, who creates a character specific and different enough from Gambon's brilliant performance that I think it will avoid the endless and pointless 'who's better' comparisons. He's also a kind and gentle soul, who has hurt only himself in his personal struggles, and who seems to finally be on a good and happy path. I know many resent the second chances he's been given, but when you're around him, and you see the enormous talent and enormous heart the man has, only the most vindictive would wish him ill. Perhaps if more people were given more second chances, we'd have fewer people who have just given up. Maybe the problem isn't any special treatment given to Downey, but the fact that an equally special person without his resources wouldn't be given that second chance. But that's just my opinion.

Best to all,

Keith Gordon

[–] judy48blue 22 years ago

Dear Keith, thank you for such a wonderful answer. Wow...I am blown away! Please know that there are many many fans of Robert who are sending their most positive thoughts and prayers for sucess at Sundance! Best of luck in all of your future endeavors! We saw a tiny clip of TSD last night on ET and the fan sites for Robert are buzzing with excitement! It looks fantastic and there are scores of his fans ready to wait in line and see your film. thnak you again so much! take care, Judy

[–] lindaeior 22 years ago

Dear Mr Gordon,

I have been a fan of Robert's for a couple of years now, and I just felt the need to thank you for those wonderful words about him. Too many times his fans have had to read people's negative comments (although they rarely come from those who really know him), and it feels fantastic to hear from someone who only has good things to say about him. From the bottom of my heart: Thank you!

I'm very much looking forward to the premiere of your film, and I wish you, Robert, Mel and the others the best of luck!
All the best,

Lin

[–] wordcraft 22 years ago

Yes, congratulations, Mr Gordon. I think you have just made me roughly 100% more determined to try to catch the film.

I'll admit I shared all the misgivings you can find further up in these posts (and on the pages of the TV version, and on the pages devoted to PFH), and I'll admit my first impulse was to sigh a resigned "more of the same remodelling in the American image crap; when WILL they learn to leave well alone", and I'll also admit that your initial appearance in these columns left me a bit sceptical - on the principle that "on the Internet nobody knows you are a dog...".

BUT... your measured response above has gone some way to reassuring this old cynic, at least.

The truth is, like it or not, you'll get hammered by some for sure; passions justly run high about this piece, as you well know, and people hang on jealously to their memories. Nobody likes having their dreams of dramatic perfection trampled over in hob-nailed boots. You'll probably get extravagantly adored, too, by those who were too young or in the wrong place to catch the original and/or who would watch an actor (ANY actor) they like in anything, even the mediocre, but by all accounts this is an honourable enterprise and deserves to be given as much objectivity as we flunked traditionalists can bring to it <grin>.

I'm still staggered that Potter ever got over his Hollywood PTSD following "Pennies from Heaven", but if he did, so be it. All the same, he was taking a risk (given that he must have known he would not be around to oversee things) that the "skewering" you mention could be carried through with aplomb by the very people he was seeking to skewer, if you get my drift :-), or that the loss of the autobiographical aspects (the Forest of Dean material in particular) would not be a fatal blow.

Bring it over to Sodankylä (the Midnight Sun Film Festival) this June, there's a good chap, and I'll make a strenuous effort to fly up to see it. Their site's on the web. There's also Espoo Cine in August, but then you don't get the Midnight Sun, of course.

To the person who mentioned the lovely "Where the Buffalo Roam" in another post (as I did, too, earlier), I was fortunate enough to be thirteen, at a sensitive age, and completely blown away that Wednesday night when it appeared. Since then I have never been able to see Hywel Bennett in anything, or read the word "Geronimo", without remembering the play.

Best of luck with your venture. Should be opening in a few hours, by my reckoning.

[–] ellendellen 22 years ago

Thank you, it was a really interesting letter/comment. I really hope this movie becomes a great success, because I really think Robert Downey Jr. deserves it... And all the others :) It seems interesting, I'm absolutely going to see it when it is on the theaters.

[–] megm 22 years ago

Hip hip hooray!

Nothing can ever touch the amazing experience that Gambon's Singing Detective continues to provide for me.

Now we have a posthumous release to enjoy from an artist I admire so much and thought had stopped producing, Dennis Potter!

Ain't life grand! (Except for the fact that I live in El Paso, and this film will probably never show here.) I'll see it some day! As god is my witness!

Yee haw!

[–] Jemfred 22 years ago

I also have great hopes for this film – only wish I could find an online trailer! My main worry now is the obviously different soundtrack that the movie will have – The original TSD soundtrack is... so many superlatives come to mind.

But then, there's a very real danger in this film being a success. Or, of course an opportunity.

Will (possibly/hopefully with equal good taste) versions of Lipstick On Your Collar, Karaoke or Cold Lazarus follow?

There's a thought to stop sleep for a while!

[–] swanjac 22 years ago

Dear Mr Gordon,
my apologies for the long delay in replying...life etc! lol
Thank you for your response, i was amazed and pleased you actually took time out to do that, much appreciated.
your thoughtful and thought - provoking comments have made me determined to try and catch your version of TSD as soon as poss.
I wish you success with this project and any other venture you embark on in future.
Have you worked in the UK at all? For Directors who want to experiment with the genre a bit, i feel there is slightly more leeway here than in the states.
The only problem here in the UK is lack of money :(
Have you a project lined up for the future? Actually, as far as im aware, Potters "Where the Buffalo Roam" has Never been remade, its a great story!
I just hope the reception TSD has received hasnt put you off such a project for life!
From what i can gather reading the postings here, it has had a bit of a stony path to tread?
What Was that about Britney Spears?? she a film critic?
i thought she was some bimbo "pop" tart about to disappear back into obscurity.....
look forward to seeing your work, good luck in the future
cheers
John Piper

[–] chris65203 22 years ago

Dear Mr. Gordon,

First of all kudos for coming onto the board, I know lesser directors would never do something like that.

Just a few months ago I saw 'midnight clear' for the first time, and I was blown away, what a great film. I'll have to pick up some of your other works in the near future. I wish you the best with "The Singing Detective" and only have one question. All I know about this film at this point is that it was remade from a british TV series and that it is a musical. My question is how is it the same/different from some of the other musicals that have been coming out recently (I don't mean this as an insult I'm just wondering).

All the best with "The Singing Detective" and sorry about the spelling and gramatical erros.

[–] swanjac 22 years ago

Hi Chris...
well, i havent managed to catch this version of the singing detective yet, but, the original 1986 TV series, made by the BBC, is not just a musical...in fact, Dennis Potter the guy who wrote the piece, deliberately wanted it as "unclassifiable"!
it is probably the finest piece of Television Drama ever made / written.
its almost indescribably good.
If you ever get the chance..try to see it...its mind-blowing!
cheers
john piper

[–] sidetracked 22 years ago

Hello,

I'll never give anyone else a hard time for 'spelling and gramatical errors'. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

As 'Swanjac' noted in his reply, Potter's works (especially his 'musical' pieces like 'Pennies From Heaven' and 'Lipstick on Your Collar'), were often experimental, unique and quite unclassifiable. Yes, there are songs sung by the characters, but they are always lip-synching to old songs (in this case 1950s proto-rock and roll). There are a few all out 'musical numbers' with dancing and stylized sets. At other times Downey's character is performing on stage as 'The Singing Detective', and at others characters fall into song in the middle of naturalistic dialouge, somtimes only briefly.

It's all very funny and playful and odd. Potter smashed together various genres and styles (musical, film noir, naturalistic drama, slapstick comedy) as a way of getting audiences to look at story and character in new ways. He'd both poke fun at cliches, yet still use their inherent emotional power at the same time. He had a love/hate relationship with much of popular culture (music, film, literature), and used those elements explore how our culture making us who we are.

In terms of recent film, some of Charlie Kaufman's writing has some of that same playful use of genes and style ('Adaptation', 'Being John Malcovich'), if not the same use of music.

All my best,

Keith Gordon

[–] chris65203 22 years ago

thankyou

[–] Short_Legs 16 years ago

Firstly, I can't believe I am replying to a thread which is almost 6 years old...! But anyway, in response to lonp:

"As to Robert Downey Jr. being in _anything_ by Potter much less continuing in a Hollywood career for any reason I think is an insult to the good taste and common sense of the viewing public: virtues which have been tested repeatedly for many years anyway."...

I HOPE YOUR WORDS TASTE NICE AS IT'S SURE AS SHT YOU'LL HAVE EATEN THEM BY NOW!!