MovieChat Forums > Runaway Jury (2003) Discussion > This is one of the dumbest, most hypocri...

This is one of the dumbest, most hypocritical movies ever *spoilers*


Putting Liberal/Conservative jazz aside, this movie is still a steaming pile of nonsense. First off, the gun company was in total compliance with the LAW. You can't ask more than that. The guy who sold the gun illegally was punished and the guy who committed the crime was dead...JUSTICE was done, but somehow that wasn't good enough? We have to go after the manufacturer, merely because they're aware that their product is sometimes misused?

Ok...so what if Ford is aware of how many Fords are involved in drunk driving incidents? Are we gonna sue Ford for selling a car to an alcoholic? I mean, aren't people responsible for their OWN actions?

And BTW, if you think guns can be illegalized and crime rates will decrease, you're living in a vacuum. Just ask yourself if anti-narcotic laws keep drugs off the streets. Your best bet is leaving the potential perp wondering if he's gonna get perforated for breaking into your house. Period. If he KNOWS you don't have a gun and your neighbor does, who do you think is gonna get robbed, raped and murdered? Yeah. You.

Another thing: Nick and his little girlfriend break all kinds of laws, too many to count. The 'evil' gun company, who has complied with the law 100% prior to the trial (hiring Fitch was obviously wrong) only hired Fitch in the first place to defend itself against an unjust lawsuit. Entire companies were on the line; that's JOBS! Livelihoods. Family businesses built over generations. They're just supposed to lie down and take it while these two 'activists' break every law in sight and manipulate other human beings in some twisted revenge quest? Those are our heroes in this film? Uh, no.

I love the line at the end of the film...'we let them vote their hearts'...ummm, excuse me, you *let* them??? How bloody nice of YOU. Give me a break.

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"We let them vote their hearts"

THIS is the scariest part of the whole film. Screw logic, reason and evidence. Just vote the way that makes you feel good.



"Atlas Shrugged"- Coming soon to PPV --See it again!

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Exactly! WHAT ABOUT THE LAW, GUYS?? You know, the little thing that keeps us from living in total anarchy????

The script had the ex-military antagonist say '*beep* the law!' but he was the guy who was actually going WITH the law. It was Nick and his girl who were the ones (figuratively) *beeping* the law!!

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>"And BTW, if you think guns can be illegalized and crime rates will decrease, you're living in a vacuum."

Why are crime and gun crime rates so much lower in countries where it's illegal? I don't understand the American arguments at all. Pretty sure nobody in my street has a gun, and nobody has ever come after any of us with one either. Go figure.

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I don't know you or where you live, but on nice streets and in good neighborhoods, NOBODY has to worry about guns unless somebody has come from another place to rob...so if nobody on your street has a gun, we can assume you don't live in a slum.

Your argument is really shortsighted...the problem, of course, isn't in the nice neighborhoods, but in the ones with gangs and drugs. Your country, wherever it is, has those problems too.

So the short answer is that if a country has fewer crimes committed in it, gun control is obviously not the only factor. There may be far fewer people living there than in the U.S....you may not have a terrible illegal immigrant problem like we do...you may not have as many large cities as we do...you may not have a gang epidemic enabled and fueled by social apologists the way we do.

HERE, where the movie was set, the states and cities with the tightest gun control are always the most violent. Washington D.C., New York, Chicago...crime rates went up when law abiding citizens were disarmed and left defenseless.

I'd be interested in knowing the country in which you live, and more importantly, what your crime rates were BEFORE guns were outlawed. Odds on, if they are indeed lower, it's not because of a law regarding guns. My argument stands.

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We don't really have the same problems. I don't have the time to go around chasing numbers now but statistically pretty sure we have far lower crimes (proportionally...obviously a smaller population) and much lower gun crime. Even in the bad areas...people just don't generally have guns. There are some gang issues in Melbourne, occasionally gang members will off other gang members. And it is occasional, like every few years.

I really don't buy the hilarious American argument that you need guns to defend yourself and otherwise the criminals will run riot. It's disturbing and illogical. Really, if you're being shot at who has time to get a gun and shoot back in time? Lol

Here is something that addresses it: http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp they did bring in tighter laws on certain weapons after the Tasmanian massacre and there was a drop in the related crime (though when the figures are so small, it's hard to judge). Now I don't know much about the history, but it's not like we had guns and then they were outlawed. We just never really had them available or part of the culture like America does. Here's all the AIC stuff: http://www.aic.gov.au/crime_types/violence/weapons/otherdocs.aspx
http://www.aic.gov.au/en/statistics/homicide/weapon.aspx

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No offense, but after Australia's gun ban (an IDIOTIC waste of money in a land where you are just as likely to have to defend yourself against an animal as a person), gun homicides went up, armed robberies went up, assaults went up, gun suicides went up, and now you guys have a healthy and thriving black market in cheap Chinese guns. You most definitely DO have a gun culture there in Australia, and whether you know it exists or not makes NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever. It's there.

Govts can't keep drugs off the street, and they can't keep guns off the street. It happens, it will keep happening. Disarming the law abiding citizen is MORONIC. If I choose to keep a gun for self defense, that is up to me, not you. You want to be defenseless? Fine. Just don't drag the rest of us down with you.

When you make guns illegal, only criminals will have guns. Period. What's so hilarious about that?

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I'm fairly sure you're wrong on the stats and you haven't provided any back up. How come our crime and gun crime is proportionally so much lower than the states? And if an average citizen doesn't know about the gun culture, isn't that indeed the point? That's it's not really that rife?

And like I said before, how does it really defend you? If someone wakes you up by barging into your bedroom, will you have your gun ready to go before they do? How about if you walk to the shops and get mugged, do you carry your gun with you and can you pull it out before the person with a gun to your head shoots you? Um, I doubt it.

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Sorry, that's not too bright. So you may get robbed under circumstances so specific that you may not be able to defend yourself, and that justifies not ever being able to defend yourself under ANY circumstances?

Um, yeah and under that logic, you shouldn't bother to have a plan to get your kids out of the house in case of fire because the fire might be between you and the nearest window. Makes sense.

The whole 'victim' mentality that liberals lean toward is perplexing to me because it doesn't make sense...but you guys try to MAKE it make sense by concocting these nonsensical hypotheses that have NOTHING to do with reality and usually depend on the assumption that ninjas are attacking retards. One guy even told me that firing a .357 magnum would break my weak little lady arms. Puh-leese, I fired one when I was a teenager. My lady arms are still good to go.

You wanna live with no guns? FINE. I embrace your freedom to make that decision. It's when guys like you start trying to make that decision for OTHERS that we have a problem. You wanna be a statistic? Go for it. Don't drag everybody else down too.

And dude, not being aware of something has no bearing on its existence. A 747 could be crashing in a ball of fire towards your house, and ignorance of it means nothing.

One thing I will give you: Australia just doesn't have the VOLUME of dense, urban areas that America has. And I hope for your sakes you don't have the volume of social apologists making excuses for bad behavior that we have (which just encourages said behavior). Your crime rates weren't as high as ours BEFORE the gun bans either. So your comparison is pretty apples and oranges. You have all of our problems, but on a smaller scale.

You're a ballsy guy to live with all those snakes and crocs and not own a gun, though. Haha.

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

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Hey, "doesenglandexist", it just shows how ignorant you are as an American! The poster said that he/she lived in Melbourne, which is on the other side of the country from the Outback, or from Northern Queensland, where crocs and snakes live. Melbourne is a city, not vast wasteland. So, no danger of the poster needing a gun in case he or she comes across a croc or snake, as they don't really crawl down Melbourne streets.I suppouse we should beware of all the Aborigines and kangaroos jumping around too. Maybe it is wise to not get all your knowledge on Australia from "Crocodile Dundee"!

Also, your crazed obsession with your gun worries me, and makes me think that you are more dangerous than a lot of the things you fear.

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Your tirade about Melbourne would make sense if he was the only guy in Australia, lol, or if everybody lived in Melbourne. Between the two of us, if I'm ignorant, you should be wearing a helmet.

Crazed gun obsession???? I don't want to be a statistic, so I have a crazed gun obsession? YAWN. Get a hobby, mate.

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These responses made me laugh a lot.

There's an inherent appreciation for firearms in the US, because it's written into their constitution which guarantees the right to arms. Unlike some other countries, there is (barring liberal viewpoints) nothing wrong with gun ownership or possession in the US. In many other countries where gun ownership is illegal there's a negative stigma to the possession of a gun for the average citizen. This has, in my opinion, nothing to do with the merits of gun ownership but rather the innate assumption in these places that only two people have guns: law enforcement and criminals. In a society where gun ownership is illegal, there's nothing wrong with having that perspective- or having the feeling that you don't need a gun to protect yourself. The statistical probability is that you and the next person will both not have guns, and as such there's a legitimate the assumption that your own abilities to defend yourself will be enough since there is this void of an outside influence (in this specific case guns) and then in the off cases where weapons are present the subsequent assumption is that law enforcement can do the trick. However in the US that's simply not the case. There is no stigma that having a gun is anything beyond your constitutional rights.

The true apples and oranges comparison being made here is that where you live (in this example Melbourne, though for many posters or thread readers it will vary) guns have this negative stigma that I explained, and in America they do not.

Personally, I am all for the legality of firearms. I do not live in the United States, and where I live beyond hunting licenses guns are illegal to possess and the steps for legalized possession are difficult and arduous- and the process follows strict guidelines. That being said, I also live in a metropolis where crime is fairly prevalent. Shootings have been much more frequent recently, and while it can be argued that if everyone owned a gun it could go much worse (untrained shooters fire at a gunman under the guise of self defense and stray bullets hit randoms, for example) I feel confident that those who aren't capable of using that weapon either a. wouldn't or b. wouldn't have it on their person.

In the US, it's not like people just walk the street packing a hidden gun- or moreso, most people don't. Those that do, at least to my knowledge, require a permit/license to carry a concealed weapon. Otherwise, they must keep it out in the open. I'd argue that if you have a gun visible to a criminal, they won't screw with you. If they were going to, no measure of self defense would act as a deterrent to them- because they already are aware that their actions could lead to their death and they've accepted that outcome as a possibility and tried to *beep* around anyways. In that specific instance, the argument of gun merits are moot, the outcome is predetermined by the criminal's mindset and intentions- and ultimately, I'd like the opportunity to try and draw and fire first.

I found this thread comedic, as like pretty much any internet venue for discussion, it devolved into a "my way of life is better than yours" argument, which is always worth a cheap laugh. Guns aren't for everybody, and neither is each individual's perception about guns. Ultimately, crime will occur regardless of firearms (crime predates guns, don't ya know) and I do believe they are ultimately a decent deterrent (as shown above in my "I see his gun, I won't *beep* with that guy example).

As to the topic of the post, there is an obligation of due diligence that the premise of the plot's legal argument is based on. The legal case, as far as I understood the movie's intentions, was that the gun manufacturer (by nature of their products being potential instruments to cause bodily harm) has a responsibility to monitor the sales of their product to some degree. They aren't expected to monitor the sales of each gun, but the premise was that one distributor moving mass quantities of automatic weapons *should* have triggered some alarm bells. The fact that they didn't look into it at all (but rather rewarded the seller for his sales acumen) is intended to show that their intention was to make more money, independent of any due diligence required in the sales of their product. I don't know the legal merits of that case, but ultimately since this type of court case doesn't happen often and rarely rules against the gun companies, it's a fair argument to be made that the plot is decently farfetched. That being said, I really liked this movie. I thought they took a powderkeg of a topic and made a good movie out of it. I felt that the liberal side of me was pleased at how they approached the case and its conclusion, while the conservative in me didn't really feel betrayed, as I felt the film decently portrayed the factual nature of "this isn't really the fault of the gun company"- even though ultimately the verdict in the end was against them.

To conclude this wall of text I end with my most lasting thought of this discussion- "doesenglandexist" is a woman who's comfortable shooting a .357, and that's a pretty big turnon. All the (fire)power to you.

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True- just look at Mexico for example. They have strict gun control laws and almost no violent crime....not.

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1) I totally agree with you, dropping the Politics and everyone's googled theories of sociology. What is this movie saying, "Well you guys are in the wrong so we are going to break as many laws as we can cause at the end of the day we are better people than you!".

2)hppg- I know you want to make a point and say guns kill people and god forbid people take personal responsibility. In the real world your more likely to be hit crossing the street b/c some Bimbo is texting and not paying attention to the road. Who does the person take to court, the cell phone company? the person who was texting her? the company who made the cell phone?

(And hppg if you do read this, you can do all the selective reading from my post you wish and try to point out small flaws and send as many links as you want, but at the end of the day it is still Personal Responsibility, You can have Law or Morality but you can not have both. B/c once you toss in Morality any chance of Equal Justice is thrown out.)





3) At the end of the day, the company should be held responsible to a point. And that point end's when they take the person's money and the person walks out of the store. That is it.

Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!

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Everybody should check out England today (Aug 9, 2011). Go to your favorite 24 hr news channel (doesn't matter which) and look at what is going on in this safer, gun free society. God help these people if they don't have a gun hidden somewhere that the govt doesn't know about. It's their best bet if they don't want to watch their children raped and their house burned today.

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I read it, but you didn't make much sense...there is a place for both personal and corporate responsibility for some things.

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There is a responsibility, if your a Business than your responsibility is to your employee's, share holders and profit margins.

If your a General your responsibility is to your troops, King and Country.

And yes, the Laws are responsible for the people and safety of their well being.
But personal responsibility has nothing to do with Business, War, or Government, if we specialize every law for every person and group than the law is not Justice and it is not Equal for All.

Do you think this same group of 'Do gooders' is in every Ghetto in America getting guns off the street? Would they rig the same kind of trail if it was the mother of a victim of a drive by in the Mission district of San Francisco or Atlantic City, Hell's Kitchen, South Boston? Some would say it could be a race issue or a personal grudge against a company that really had nothing to do with some crazy kid who went on a killing spree.

Should a company that sells guns feel responsible if a truck of their weapons get stolen and the guns are sold to Warring factions in Africa?

How about this, if you buy a knife set for someone, the set is stolen and used to commit murder, Do you feel responsible, after all you bought the person the set. Or was the person who commit the murder no matter what, no matter what the weapon was. How far does corp responsibility need to be extended?











Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!

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I don't know how far it should go and I'm really not here to debate that. I was just arguing the silly and incorrect claims about guns, which are secondary to the point. I think it is a stretch to hold manufacturers responsible (though in this case, wasn't the point they knew about this particular black market and did nothing?) and I'm not sure how I feel about it. However, there is more than just individual responsibility and in certain cases I believe it is merited to hold companies responsible.

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What I'm saying is that knowing black markets exist is irrelevant. That's police business. No manufacturer is responsible for misuse or crimes committed by their product. If the gun exploded or something, THEN they would be at fault.

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Exactly! And car manufacturers aren't responsible for drunk drivers, even if they know how many drunk driving deaths involve their product!

What if that nut job had gone into that office with a flame thrower whose manufacturer knew there was a black market for flame throwers? Same crime. Office workers still dead. Whose fault is it then?

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Firstly, I suspect that you either work for a gun company or gun store, or you are a hunter or gun owner.

Secondly, saying that making things illegal won't stop crimes from being committed is ludicrious. Saying that making guns illegal will make it go underground, so there is no point banning it, is like saying that murder shouldn't be illegal, because it still happens anyway.

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I'm not a hunter, not affiliated with the gun industry...but I do own a gun. I know people who have protected both themselves and others by PREVENTING a crime, simply because they had a gun. And not a shot was fired. The police showed up 15 mins later, just in time to accomplish nothing. My family will not be harmed if it is within my power. I'd prefer peace on earth and good will toward men, but that's just not how it is.

Our Dept of Justice here in America just sold a bunch of guns to drug cartels. WTF? Sure, heads will roll for it in D.C., but that doesn't help me here.

Gun laws keep guns off the streets about as well as drug laws keep drugs off the streets. That's what I said, and I'm right. Deal with it. Don't want one? Don't buy it. Simple as that. But you don't get to dictate what *I* do.

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A about a year or two ago, 'selective' parents were blaming McDonalds for children being over weight. They believed, the root of childhood obesity game from Happy Meal Toys and Fast Food, the Clown Prince of Cheese burgers were making their kids fat. So an in effort to cure the problem, they tried to force McDonalds to stop selling Kids Meals. Like the kids would magically stop wanting fast food.

All these ant-gun people seem to forget about Personal Responsibility. Like in the Happy Meal Example, the ultra cool modern parents seem to forget the billion times they brought home fast food rather than cook their kids dinner. But are they some how to blame? Oh No, it is always the other guy, Cartoon, Manufacturer, Video Game, it is never the parent who just plain ignore their kids.

There is one other thing, maybe you can agree with me on this, cause i think we are both on the same page. Is it me, or do the bulk of the people who piss and moan about Gun Laws, have never actual (up close and personal) had any sort of gun violence, but they all seem to 'know someone' who has?





After watching Ken Burns Prohibition, if there is anything this country is good for, we love to tell one another what to do, your anti gun controller was your Dry Voter back in the day. Not knowing, once a market is shut down, the sub market with a few friends in Washington, still want to make money.


Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!

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ohhhhh yeahhhh...because no parent can control how many cheeseburgers their six year old eats, right? lol. yes...you're absolutely right! the weak-minded are all just looking for a path to 'it's not my fault' and leftists are looking for a foot in the 'removing your rights for your own good' door. this movie doesn't need to be critiqued politically to be broken, but it helps. ;-)

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What really makes me laugh a bit, are the people that seem to over look EVERYTHING. The people that are Anti-Gun, are not exactly marching the streets of South Central LA saying 'lay down your arms'. They don't seem to care about the urban cities that really have to deal with the issue, instead, its a 'friend' who knew a guy, that lived across the street from another guy who knew someone else who shot themselves.

Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!

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Only Americans believe they need to protect themselves with guns. I guess it's to do with that old lemon they believe in - that somehow "they're special". Most of us Europeans find your right to carry arms barbaric.

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Most of us Europeans find your right to carry arms barbaric.


I guess that's why we Americans had to come over twice last century and save your asses.
I suppose if I were a European, I wouldn't be so eager to protect my life either. Hitler's gas chambers would be a warm, welcome friend.

European opinion means very little to me, considering the socialist crap-pile many of the nations have become. I'm quite content in my barbarianism.


Speak louder, Mr. Hart! Fill the room with your intelligence!

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If you don't realise that the USA joined both WW1 and WWII to save itself from eventual economic collapse then I suppose that makes sense.

You need to read a few history books first though.

Go on. Give it a go. You seem to be smart but very misinformed.

Cheers, Will

If the opposite of Love is indifference, what's the opposite of Hate?

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Yet it's so-called 'socialist' European countries (and Canada) which regularly top all objective indicators of quality of life. In fact, Norway and Sweden - high tax, high income states - tend to come 1st and 2nd every year in the Human Development Index. Do you even know what 'socialist' means, you turd?

Perhaps if Americans weren't busy blowing each other's brains out at high schools, they could try fixing their crumbling infrastructure, dreadful poverty levels, uneducated, insular population and the worst teenage pregnancy rate in the developed world :o)

And if your views are a product of a typical American educational institution, I'd say the United States' problems are only going to get worse!

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SOCIALIST countries in Europe have been the settings of, far and away, the BLOODIEST, most brutal, poverty stricken scenes from the beginning of the 20th century to the end of it. I cite Hitler, Lenin and Stalin, but it didn't end there. MILLIONS were butchered by Socialists and all in the name of enlightenment and progress. Way to be. Way to be.

BTW, before you go touting your 'development index' you should bother to LEARN what the qualifications are. First and most obvious is FAIRNESS in treatment...sounds pretty awesome, right? That's probably as far as you thought it out. What it ACTUALLY means is that a country where everyone is 'fairly' waiting on a list for treatment (even if they don't get it) through govt healthcare would rate higher than a country where people who work hard and save get better service than people who live off the govt tit...and those indexes have VERY LITTLE to do with quality of technology or service. It's just a cheap way to reword an issue so it sounds good enough to sell to people who won't bother to research anything if it SOUNDS nice or if the word 'free' is within a hundred feet of it.

But people like you just fly the flag and think their good intentions make up for their ignorance. People like you are quick to quote poverty figures but FORGET somehow to take into account that what has been labeled poverty in America is labeled 'middle class' in your Enlightened, Socialist Europe.

The problems of the United States are usually exacerbated by self-righteous ignorami with loud mouths.

P.S....your glorious Socialized EU? It's going down the debt toilet. And its freebie mentality is so ingrained in its citizens that they don't care...they just want their free ride no matter who it hurts.

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P.S. Educate yourself about poverty rate indicators here:

http://www.economist.com/node/17961878

It seems the US system of measuring poverty actually underestimates the levels!

American poor is the kind of poverty that does not exist in other civilised countries, sorry :( It's more comparable to the BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India and China).

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In America, you can have a house, two cars, a computer, giant television, DVDs, video games, etc and still fall below the poverty line, where you pay no taxes and govt buys your groceries for you. Sorry, it's not the number of people who fall below the line that counts; it's where they DRAW the line.

But hey, don't get me wrong. I like a lot of Britons. Not you (if you're British), but still. I know many many tax and 'freedom' refugees.

America is just better.

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I wish I was as uneducated as you, if ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest person on the planet! LOL

I'm only joking, I know it's not your fault you were unfortunate enough to be born in such a dreadful place that thrives on the idiocy of its child-like population. Poor Americans :(

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Look, our little pseudo intellectual failed his history exams, apparently! No wonder no university would take him.

Americans with guns are the ONLY reason you and the rest of the wish-we-were-important types over there aren't singing the German national anthem today. But you conveniently forget THAT. You ignore that *we* made sure you had the right to spout your fantasy nonsense and insult the people you owe your lives to, in spite of the fact that all you have to back up your 'enlightenment' are sad unemployment numbers, increasing dependence on handouts from your nanny govt, and EMBARRASSING GDP to debt ratio. England just raised taxes and all they got to show for it were tax refugees and lower revenue...again! That's indicative of a LEARNING DISORDER. But by all means, continue to back policies that send the SMART ones running to the U.S. We'll take them. Thanks!

Of course everything you've blathered and will blather in the future must be taken with a grain of salt, since you've stated time and again how thankful you are to have been born a Serf on a continent where it's commonplace for govts to decide their people are too stupid to make their own decisions.

Although, if your inane attempts at sounding condescending and junior college freshman level philosophical allusions are any indicator--it may well be the perfect system for YOU. Oh, and google Hobbes before you invoke his name. He is one of the arcitects of a system under which INTELLIGENT people can be trusted to live happily within. So naturally, Europe has rejected him in favor of something resembling a zoo or an old folks home. Hey, is it feeding time? You'd better go stand in line!

Welcome to the limit of your intellect. Please enjoy your stay. If you even read this far, you're better educated than you sound.

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Some of these Britons need to take a look around their own country. Or rent 'Harry Brown' if they have the stomach for it. Many MANY Britons are pro-gun, but their campaign to have their rights restored is quickly slandered by preachy, know it all types who live in nice neighborhoods and don't have to deal with the dregs of the universe on their way to work or sleeping in their beds at night.

I srsly doubt this person represents 'most europeans' anyway. How arrogant. And aside from that...if most europeans are doing something, it'd be wise to avoid it. Everything Europe touches turns to *beep* these days.

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Please try to get an education before you post, reading your output makes my toes curl out of embarrassment for you :(

I wonder why the US never tops the Human Development Index...maybe it's the fact it's a primitive, ultra violent society with a hugely uneducated population with failing healthcare needs, the worst statistics on basic health indicators in the developed world and the fact that most people live in a total state of fear of the outside world (or even outside of their state!).

If I lived in Hobbesian state of nature (which, to be honest, sounds like quite a lot of the US!) I would probably want a gun too. Luckily I live in a civilised region of the world, and I think God every day that I wasn't unlucky enough to be born in the USA! :o)

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Hahaha! Typical. No facts cited to back up your position, just the desperate clawing of a pseudo-intellectual on the losing end who believes his only salvation lies in trying to humiliate the person who won the argument.

You ARE the weakest link. Enjoy drowning in your debt. Hope you never wander into the Elephant and Castle with that ignorant, wanna be elitist mouth of yours. Oh hey...when the EU collapses, remember *I* told you it was going to happen, Nanny State Inmate.

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P.S.....I just re-read your middle paragraph. You have a very vivid imagination. No wonder you're such a happy inmate. The only thing Americans are afraid of is a person like YOU having any kind of power over other people. Ignorant, arrogant, holier than thou and QUITE WILLING to trim the rights of others to suit your beliefs.

And PROUD that it's been done to you. Don't you have a line to stand in for your handouts or something? You're wasting our time.

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Do you know how badly America performs on basic health indicators compared to the rest of the developed world?

Do you know how badly the US education system performs compared to the rest of the developed world?

These are not opinions, they are empirical facts. Brainwashed Americans tend to reject empirical facts and prefer to deal with apocrypha, truthiness and ignorance, thus repeating the cycle.

I know I'm wasting my time because you probably don't have the intellect to understand rational arguments :( Don't you have millions of homeless people to be ignoring? ;)

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Like all Europeans, you're propping up a system that doesn't work and rather than admit you were wrong, you just alter the parameters of the question until it gives you the answers you want. In spite of the fact that every European and Canadian with money comes to the United States for medical treatment, you continue to hang onto the idea that being on a waiting list constitutes 'health care' meanwhile, the U.S. has laws REQUIRING the treatment of indigent patients, so our poor get the same healthcare as yours do, only we don't taunt them by making them stand in line for what they'll likely die before getting. That's healthcare...what else were you squeaking about? Oh yes, education...Well, NOW you have to take into account that the United States educates EVERY CHILD through the age of 18. The rest of the world DOESN'T DO THAT! The rest of the world has much higher standards for which children deserve to be educated than the condition of merely being a resident.

Digest those empirical facts for a bit...don't strain yourself. Oh...and next time you're looking for a cheap self-esteem boost...don't challenge an Mensan with a degree in what you're TRYING to sound intelligent about.

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Wahoo, what a bunch of ignorant tripe! You are so deluded, it's quite breath-taking to behold! If you genuinely are a MENSA member, then sweet Jesus, keep it yourself - I'm sure they don't want to be associated with your inane, blindly patriotic idiocy :D

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Try not to choke on your jealousy in the presence of someone who can actually think as opposed to waiting for govt to TELL them what to think. Your inane and QUITE misplaced sense of superiority is akin to a zoo animal thinking itself above those roaming free. Sure, they feed you every day...but it isn't as 'free' as you think it is.

Like the others of your ilk, when you can't win on points, you fall back on personal insults. Pathetic.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html

Don't let the butthurt get to you...Europe needs every brick in the wall it can get. Enjoy the slide downhill.

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Neither that dumb nor hypocritical. There are plenty of legal but immoral behaviors that became illegal thanks to the intersection between legal cases and social movements. Slavery being the most obvious example. But the best analogy here is to tobacco smoking which in spite of being legal, tobacco manufacturers have been found legally culpable for the harm caused by their product. If you engaged in a less knee jerk reaction and applied a little thought you would be able to see that. Gun manufacturers and "gun rights" are currently ascendant, but no moreso than slavery was in the decades before the Civil War. A change in attitudes towards guns may well lead to a change in the legality of gun ownership and of the legal culpability of gun manufacturers.

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Owning a gun isn't an immoral behavior...and the 'knee jerk reaction' you described is ALREADY illegal. It's the attitude of 'I believe it so you have to live it' that gave us really nifty things like Prohibition and that presently keeps gays from their right to equal standing under marriage laws. Just because YOU don't like something doesn't give you the right to ban it.

The only reason tobacco manufacturers are liable for anything is because they deliberately misled the public about their product. Totally different ballgame.

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The thing is, Hank, our liberal attitude can at worst lead to a debate, whereas your 'I believe it so you must live it" leads to invading countries and the murder of thousands. The US has provided some of the best artists and therefore culture of the last 100 years but your politics is as dangerous as Stalin's.

....

http://soundcloud.com/dj-snafu-bankrupt-euros

Coz lifes too short to listen to Madlib

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heres my two cents...The suit would probably (eventually) be overturned on appeal, but the long-con had accomplished two things...first the manuacturer would be more careful watching over the 'pipeline' between their products manufacture and distribution to prevent future lawsuits....second, Rankin Fitch was out of the Jury selection buisiness.

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I agree with the latter, but let's talk about the former...the gun store owner didn't commit a crime, one of his customers did. And it was a customer of that customer who actually did the shooting. Can a company really be expected to investigate every customer of every business it deals with? Because in this film, that's what they we're being prosecuted for not doing. And the guy who bought the guns from the STORE did it legally. It was the reselling that was apparently illegal.

Hollywood was endorsing a very serious miscarriage of justice because the victim of the injustice (the gun company) had political views they didn't like. Sounds uncomfortably familiar these days, amidst IRS and NSA scandals....

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That is how I saw the film. It was revenge on Fitch and embarrassment for the gun company.

Its that man again!!

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I saw the gun politics and the legal arguments more as background. Certainly this background was informed by a liberal point of view and I thought it was done sloppily. If it was an exercise in liberal propaganda, they could have adjusted the circumstances of the case to make the gun company more clearly on the wrong side of the law. Anyway, unless you have very strong pro-gun-industry feelings, I think it's possible to ignore this flaw in the film and get absorbed in the foregrounded main narrative of the attempts to manipulate the jury and the emerging revenge story.

As for the general question of gun regulation, it's up to each country to make up its mind. There has been some cartoonish portraits of the USA and the UK / Europe / Australia by various parties. The USA has its set of governing values for understandable historical reasons, as does each country. Differences are often exaggerated. Personally, writing as a Brit, I admire some aspects of US society but wouldn't want to emulate their stance on firearms or their (only slightly) more radically free market economics. The statistics show that in the USA you are four times more likely to be murdered than in the UK. The other major Western European countries (Germany, France, Spain, Italy) have lower homicide rates still. They also have lower rates of inequality, which I attribute as the cause of lower levels of social discontent, which in turn tends to result in lower crime. None of these countries are 'socialist'. They were all allies of the USA during the Cold War, when we were all enemies of communism, and all of them have liberalised their economies since then. It's just that the USA (and the UK to an almost equal extent) has moved to the right further and faster. So we have a situation where Obama presides over an economy that is in many respects further to the right than Reagan's yet is seen as a communist by some, as are European countries that are economically to the right of the place they were at when they were fellow defenders of the free world.

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Fair (and civilly put) point. Statistics are easy come, easy go; it's only too easy to shift parameters in a given study and make a scientific survey say exactly what you want it to say. For instance, it's a given in the US that, per capita, you are far more likely to be the victim of a violent crime in the UK.

It helps to isolate and remove the worst crime areas, where you would then find that gun control works in small town UK, and lack of gun restriction works in small town USA.

Basically, IMHO, countries like those in Europe are so small that it's possible to have a blanket national law suit a large enough majority to make it work. And larger, more populous countries like Russia and China and India don't produce reliable statistics, because to be frank, we can't trust their governments. They may not be The Enemy per se, but they'll play with their own stats to save face. Everybody with an ounce of sense knows healthcare in Cuba sucks, but Cuba will still put on a show for Michael Moore's cameras because Who wants to look like a failure on tv?

In the US, many of our states are quite a bit larger than many of your countries, which is why I and many others like me favor state regulation reflecting each state's own culture and needs over blanket one size fits all federal regulations that don't work.

If you think of it that way, what I propose is not all that different than several tiny European nations suiting themselves re guns.

As for our economy, it's really unfair to compare the Obama admin to the Reagan admin. The conservatism of now is found within states rights (the reason Texas creates half of all new jobs) and must battle the liberalism of 'big federal govt' and it's effects (the reason Michigan and Illinois are in the tank, as state level examples)... Reagan had neither the current budget nor the current rate of entitlement spending. Ppl are afraid we'll become like Europe--unable to get along without feeding at the govt trough.

Again, it's fine if you guys decide that's what you want (country by country, it MOSTLY affects only a small population in Europe), but it seems unsustainable and many feel it is the antithesis (and the death knell) of what brought America to prominence in the first place.

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I say this all having never lived in England. All the Britons I know live in America where they get to keep the money they earn, and tell me if I ever live in England, I should obtain private insurance because, among other things, the waiting lists are hell and dentists don't accept NH insurance. I'm also given to understand the events depicted in 'Harry Browne' (spelling?) are quite accurate. I'd take my chances on Chicago's south side before I'd wander into the Elephant and Castle. But you might not. Because we both know the rules of our own turf. :-)

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Your argument would be pretty good except for one thing, that it's heavily implied that the gun company knew their guns were being resold illegally. During the scene with mr Kincaid is being question he gets asked "Was Vicksburg Firearms aware you were reselling their guns" he says no. Rohr then panics about this and says Kincaid was flipped. So it's being implied here that the gun company knew about Kancaid reselling the guns and may have been getting a cut of the action. Also the witness who went missing worked for the company and it was obvious he was a real trump card for Rohr and that he had inside information on the dealings at the company. Though not concrete this also suggests there may have been some backroom deals going on. Unfortunaly in this movie both of Rohrs trump cards are gotten too and we don't actually get to see the evidence. Now it isn't actually said in the movie just implied, but if we do believe what the movie was implying the gun company would have been breaking the law and very open to a lawsuit like this. Had they actually got this confirmed in the movie though we wouldn't have had a movie it would have been an open and shut case. It wouldn't have been about the gun company being to blame for what happens with the guns they sold, but how it is their fault for knowingly letting someone resell their guns illegally so they could make more profit. But like I said if they had actually made this clear in the movie then we wouldn't have had a movie at all.

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Ok, but how is KNOWING that your product is sometimes misused construed as breaking the law? I mean, if Ford Motor Company knows that more drunk drivers choose Ford than any other make, does that make them liable for drunk driving misdeeds? Srsly, how stupid would the gun company have to be to NOT know that guns are sometimes used to break the law?

Now, originally, this plot revolved around cigarettes--and the plaintiffs actually had a case. If the gun manufacturers were selling guns knowing that using a gun in the legal manner prescribed could give you cancer, THEN this movie would have a viable plot. Lol. As it is, Hoffman's side appears to simply be throwing a fit for fiscal gain because the ACTUAL bad guy was dead and therefore unprosecutable. Think about it: if they had been able to just nail HIM to the wall, the gun company would never have been sued. They wanted someone to PAY, and the gun makers were simply the next in line. Or rather, about third in line, but why should we start making sense at this juncture?

Cusack and whatsherface had a beef with Hackman and just didn't care who they hung along the way. I'd be inclined to credit the writers for making their heroes so flawed (because that's realistic), if I thought it was done on purpose. But I don't. I think we're really supposed to admire this pack of criminals for persecuting that pack of law abiding entrepreneurs. More or less.

The fact that the gun company owners were scripted to be unsavory doesn't faze me. It's just a plot device meant to allow the audience to get over their natural moral objection to scapegoating. We can violate THEIR rights because they aren't nice people.

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What I mean when I say they knew. Is that they knew specifically that Mr Kincaid was reselling the guns illegally. It wasn't just the general knowledge of "oh yeah some of our guns will get resold illegally we have no control over that". It was they knew who was doing it and were quite possibly in on it. Unfortunally the movie didn't actually say this expressly they just implied it heavily. To use your Ford motor analogy, it would be pretty much the same as ford selling a car to a drunk and also giving said drunk a bottle of booze as well.

The cigarette plot would have made a lot more sense. I agree the way they did it in the movie didn't make much sense. Had the movie shown that this gun company was actually working with mr kincaid and was actually getting a slice of the money he was making reselling the guns illegally, then they would have had a case.

I see your point there.

Again I see your point. Like I said it would have been better if they actually said in the movie the gun company was involved with illegal activities. Instead it's just implied but not actually showing any proof.

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I read you, but I still have to disagree a *little*...you said it's as though they sold a drunk a car and gave him a bottle of booze as well...even THAT would be a better case for the plaintiff than what went on. They legally sold their guns to a gun shop, which in turn legally sold guns to a guy who was illegally selling out of the trunk of his car. An analogous hypothetical for this film would be more like the MANUFACTURER selling a gun to the killer and giving him a list of ppl he hates and maps to their houses.

I'll give you that the clear duty of the gun company would be to call the police IF they knew of a specific crime going on and had proof of it, but I'll posit that the unlikeliness of this is what kept the screenwriters from saying it outright. Because HOW would the gun company know? Did they hire someone to follow this specific gun shop's customers around? It's a terrible plot hole that makes the suspension of disbelief impossible, unless the viewer just wants that desperately to believe that everyone who sells products they disagree with is evil.

Unfortunately, U.S. laws are formatted to damn us if we do AND if we don't. Sue McDonald's for selling the food that gave you a heart attack--sue McDonald's if they refuse to serve obese ppl. Imagine for a moment if the gun manufacturers OR the gun shop refused service to every customer who didn't look and act like a happy, vanilla American. The illegal salesman presumably passed a background check, and endured a waiting period. Must a business owner use his own time to play private eye as well?

HOWEVER! You do have a very valid point in that it's implied that the gun manufacturers knew, somehow, the actions of one specific buyer out of millions. Doesn't do it for me, but Hollywood gets to make its own rules. :-)

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Like I said that's just what they seemed to be implying. Also we have to remember something, this isn't a real company. It's a fictional one. So we can't exactly have a real world view over it. In movie universe it's hugely likely they knew about this one illegal gun seller and were in business with him lol. If this was a real world case then yeah it would not be likely.

Like you have said previously they needed to make the gun company to look as much like the villains as possible. So implying they were doing illegal business was just another way the movie could be like, "hey these are the bad guys". If they didn't make them look like the bad guys as much as possible then the "heroes" would have just looked like dicks.

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The Heroes *were* dicks.

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