MovieChat Forums > Firefly (2002) Discussion > River seeing alternative conversations

River seeing alternative conversations


Is River seeing peoples thoughts when we see people saying things they aren't really saying or is it just her hallucinations?

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Probably seeing their true emotions manifested as conversations.

Can't stop the signal.

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I think she can read non-verbal communication in such an accurate way that she can practically read people's thoughts. That wouldn't explain why she knew the story of the mute girl though. Maybe she can actually read minds 

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I think she can read non-verbal communication in such an accurate way that she can practically read people's thoughts.
That's the explanation Simon always gives. Before the movie came out there used to be a video where River is being interviewed (it appears to be at the academy) where she says the same thing, but I can't seem to find it now.
That wouldn't explain why she knew the story of the mute girl though.
She could have picked it up from the way the townspeople reacted to the mute girl and from overhearing bits of conversation while she was roaming around the town.

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Sorry, sometimes my wife forgets that she is not an alien from outer space.

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Yeah, you're right! I haven't seen the movie yet, but it seems like a plausible explanation that fits into this sci-fi universe. After all, Wash mocks Jayne for suggesting that River might be an actual witch.

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I haven't seen the movie yet...
Then you have something to look forward to.
After all, Wash mocks Jayne for suggesting that River might be an actual witch.
I love that scene. "She's in Congress?"

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Sorry, sometimes my wife forgets that she is not an alien from outer space.

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You can definitely find the interview on YouTube it is listed as The River Tam sessions . Joss Weedon played the part of the interviewer . Summer was so amazing in that . River broke my heart .

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Without even getting into the movie,from internal evidence alone the first several episodes demonstrate that River can in fact read minds. It seems that she is most adept at reading surface thoughts, and that she has a limited range (although that range is somewhat greater than her sight radius.)

If you go episode by episode, River very consistently sees trouble, and help coming a half-second or so before she has any physical reason to. For example in episode three when she can't sleep because 'there's too much screaming' that's her picking up the surface thoughts of the survivor of the reaver attack. That's why just a few minutes later she wandered to where the bodies were hanging from the ceiling finding them before Mal and Zoe.

Later she says "he's coming back" to which simon thinks she's talking about the rest of the crew. However she meant the surviving crewman. Sure enough she uses this advance warning to prevent simon from going back into the ship, preventing him from being killed by the crewman.

There are lots more examples of her knowing that help, or harm is coming in later episodes, eventually in episode 14 the crew has a sit-down chat about river, and it is explicitly stated that she can read minds. Until that point while some members of the crew may have suspected this fact, they did not openly acknowledge it as being reality.


From the evidence presented in the show/movie it is arguable whether or not River can do in-depth memory probes. Even when it is arguable that she is doing just that such as in episode 4 when river hustles badger by pretending to be from his home area, that could be her just picking up one or two thoughts about his criminal intent and making some good guesses, as simon and the other crew members saw no reason to suspect her of being a reader at that point (honestly it's not a hard guess with how badger carries himself.)

In the movie, while she does in fact learn of the existence of miranda from the alliance senator, we don't know if she learned that info from a scan of his surface thoughts or a full read. For one he might just have been pre-occupied with it at the time of meeting her. For another, there is a popular fan-theory that the 'whedonverse' is connected. According to this theory, River Tam is of all things the newest slayer (a la buffy the vampire slayer). As the slayer's job is well, to kill scary nasty things that go bump in the night like i don't know.... Reavers, he might have been thinking about their creation in connection to River being their last, best hope in defeating them. )

Fan theories aside, we just don't know how deep she can read into other's thoughts. We just know that she CAN, and she can do it from a good distance away. (most likely somewhere between a few hundred feet at worst, or a few miles at best).

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If River can read minds, why couldn't she figure out Saffron's intentions in Our Mrs Reynolds and warn everybody what Saffron was up to?


Constant accessibility has rendered us inaccessible.

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Easy. tell me, what was River's most memorable line that episode?

Behind the scenes
River has no lines in this episode. The one scene she spoke in was cut during the final edit of the episode.

http://firefly.wikia.com/wiki/Our_Mrs._Reynolds

Sure, she might have picked up Saffron's thoughts' but as she is silent the entire episode, I'm under the assumption she's having a bad day due to the combo of dealing with the Alliance's experiments that gave her psychic abilities, and her brother's experimental medication regimens that he's using to try and cure her psychosis/PTSD.


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Exactly. River wasn't all that cognizant of what was and what wasn't real even after Simon got her some new medication.

Can't stop the signal.

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One scene I haven't seen discussed in relation to this supposed mind-reading ability is the shooting scene in "War Stories" where she picks off three different men at a distance without looking. Nobody has suggested she's clairvoyant, so that idea is a non-starter. It's possible her senses were just that keen, but, oddly enough, it seems to make more sense that she could pinpoint their location via hearing their thoughts than the more mundane suggestion that her senses were so sharp she could place them with perfect accuracy without using vision. We've seen ample evidence that she can possibly read minds, but far less evidence that she's the Daredevil.

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it seems to make more sense that she could pinpoint their location via hearing their thoughts


That's a possibility.

We've seen ample evidence that she can possibly read minds, but far less evidence that she's the Daredevil.


Well, it wasn't that she was Daredevil. She did see them. She saw where they were and just calculated where she should shoot. We have seen evidence of how physically graceful she could be.

Let's be bad guys.

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Well, it wasn't that she was Daredevil. She did see them. She saw where they were and just calculated where she should shoot. We have seen evidence of how physically graceful she could be.


My problem with that idea is that she had no way of knowing whether they moved in the moments after she saw them. It takes mere inches to separate a headshot from a bullet whizzing uselessly past. If she'd raked them with an automatic weapon, it would be different. But she used three bullets for three targets and hit all of them perfectly. The rest of the firefight throughout Niska's station involved lots of advancing, retreating, ducking behind solid barriers, sticking heads out to take a few shots before hiding again, etc. The argument can be made that River shot them from memory. It just feels like poor writing in light of the fact that these weren't immobile statues and the fact that it has been established that River can locate people she can't see via thoughts (and possibly some form of precognition?) More specifically, it feels like that explanation requires that luck be made a prominent element, which would defeat the purpose of showing what River can do in the first place, no?

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No, not at all. As Kaylee said, she did the math. And that falls right in with what we know about how smart River is. She wasn't just made a psychic. She was made a super soldier.

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But math relies on known variables. If one variable -- say the specific location of an object on the X axis -- changes without you knowing, you'll get the wrong answer when you make your calculation. She can be the smartest person in all of creation and still miss a shot she wasn't looking at because humans aren't immobile objects. My point is that unless you can establish a methodology which could allow her to calculate the location of unpredictably moving objects 5 seconds after she last saw them using pure intellect/logic, the explanation makes no sense. Or, worse, it relies on some luck, which is the antithesis of math.

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If one variable -- say the specific location of an object on the X axis -- changes without you knowing, you'll get the wrong answer when you make your calculation.


Yes. But a lot of math incorporates those unknown variables.

My point is that unless you can establish a methodology which could allow her to calculate the location of unpredictably moving objects 5 seconds after she last saw them using pure intellect/logic, the explanation makes no sense.


Ahh, see that's the mistake. They weren't moving. They were stationary where they were hiding.

Or, worse, it relies on some luck, which is the antithesis of math.


Not really. Card counting relies on math, yet also on luck. So does all probability/correctional effects. The two are not mutually elusive.

Let's be bad guys.

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The problem with that is then why does she have to close her eyes? If she calculated it already there's no reason for her to "Don't look, don't look, don't look" and do it eyes closed. It might have just been her playful nature but it could also be that she had to concentrate her psychic power...

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I always figured River closed her eyes because she was so traumatized at the idea of committing such a violent act herself was extremely stressful for her. River was still a young woman and was "made into a weapon" by the academy. As she was still traumatized she would have a difficult time with that.


By the time we get to Serenity River has seen a lot more, and then she has been triggered so they can find her. She only willfully commits
violence against the Reavers and in order to save Simon and the rest of the crew, her family, essentially. And this is after the trauma of Miranda has been revealed and she no longer carries that burden. Thus making it easier for her to not need to close her eyes.
Hmm, iced tea. How very musical theater of you.

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The problem with that is then why does she have to close her eyes?


The same reason people lower the radio when they're lost. To avoid any extra stimuli that may distract them.

As we saw several times, River need not close her eyes to use her psychic powers.

Let's be bad guys.

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You forgot when she cut Jane, episode before he betrayed her and Simon trying to sell them to the Alliance at the hospital.

Wasn't me

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