MovieChat Forums > Judge John Deed (2001) Discussion > Jo Mills & Charlie Deed's political into...

Jo Mills & Charlie Deed's political intolerance & extreme left moralism


Particularly the "Hidden Agenda" and "Everyone's Child" episodes.

Hidden Agenda.

While I didn't side with the HIV-positive woman, she stated her case extremely well and reasonably. That to pre-treat, stress over and prepare a child for a disease before it had onset, could potentially induce the disease and act almost as an anti-placebo effect which a healthy lifestyle could prevent.

Mills instead uses arguments of moral indignation at the council's attempt to intervene, intellectual snobbishness and schoolyard arguments accusing a doctor of intentional vindictiveness at feeling intellectually inferior to the mother, because the university she went to. Despite the doctor following the prescribed procedure of care for any child in such a circumstance and doing what she felt was in the child's best interests.

Worse, unlike many lawyers in the programme who argue as it's their job to back the client and find loopholes available to them, she seems to hold this default view both in and out of the courtroom. She genuinely believes the pull at every strand trying to unravel arguments she's putting forward and might just as easily argue them at a dinner party as at the client's hearing.

The daughter Charlie spends half the episode whinging at her dad for not as good as rewriting, riding rough-shot over and ignoring the law, to get her way. Using heavy emotional blackmail despite being in her early 20s and having studied law herself. All the while being morally outraged at the council for using far less unfair or potentially corrupting tactics to get the outcome they want. Complaining at justice being a private members club, despite herself and pretty much every member of her family being a member of that club.

Everybody's Child.

Understood though didn't agree with the boys thinking and thought he probably should have been made to have the surgery, even though it was an incredibly though one. While intelligent to a point, talk of his intellectual grasp, range and complexity, as though so significantly beyond his peers and to warrant description as something to emulate and seek to attain, was really pushing it way too far. Given such an extreme, impractical and intolerant view; wanting to die rather than use the organ of even a single animal, because the bible said one human life was equal to one animal life.

Mills acts as if his intelligence and thinking were so well-rounded, multi-faceted, comprehensive in it's researched and morally accurate, you'd almost think she was advocating the view herself rather than merely supporting the individual's right to decide. A decision based significantly on an adolescent zeal for a course, indoctrination into a belief system and finding meaning and purpose in life, which common among teenagers but often much different even as little as a decade later. I'm only in my mid 20s and remember quite distinctly that live every day as it comes feeling of impermanence and romanticism about life. Quite different when you start getting jobs, families and learning more about the greys rather than the blacks and the whites of life.

Losing the case, she immediately appeals it, taking up more time when the child has just days to live and every wasted hour damages his heart and lessens the chances of success or living a fuller life after the surgery.

When the boy dies in surgery she then gets drunk, bursts in on Deed, where you'd think she might possibly have had a little self-realisation that whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, the delay taken over the decision might well have caused the worst of both worlds for the child and incredible anguish to the parents. Parents who'd known the child for more than the few weeks or months she had. Understandably a traumatic time but she had been arguing for him to be allowed to die, so the news of the surgery not working wasn't nearly as traumatic to her as the desperate mother.

Inside she starts throwing out passive aggressive insults about being morally outraged and Deeds' arrogance at thinking he could play god, when it was a decision he was forced to make and as though she hasn't done that herself hundreds of times in her own job.

Then you have Charlie going on about a criminal going on hunger strike and saying he should have the right to die herself. Then saying that if her own father tried to prevent her from going on hunger strike which literally would kill her, his only child, she'd be outraged, hate his very mention and never speak to him again.

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I disagree to some extent.

First, doctors often do act in a superior manner and attempt to push their treatment on patients. Perhaps you have never had an experience where you disagreed with a doctor or wanted more information than they gave on their own initiative, but I have and let me tell you, it is an infuriating situation. Of course, if you already have a relationship with the doctor whereby they respect you (let's say a long time family doctor), it generally goes alright, but if you are in a clinic or emergency room setting (not by any means out of the question), the doctors tend to be rather as depicted - superior, assume they know best, try to pressure patients. I don't just know this from personal experience, but from studies and the experience of others. Now, I'm sure that most doctors truly do want what is best and are not, as you say, vindictive, but when they ignore the autonomy of a patient, or a parent, they really can cause a lot of problems.

Second, while it is the ethical duty of a lawyer to back their client and represent them to the fullest extent of their ability in almost every situation (barring the exceptions that may arise ethically in the profession), it doesn't preclude the lawyer from having personal opinions on the matter. In fact, it would make sense that a lawyer would be more likely to take on causes they support or to have a practice aligned to representing such causes, would it not? So the lawyer who believes strongly in civil rights may well end up working for an organization like the ALCU in America for example (I'm not sure if there i an equivalent in the UK, but I'm sure you are aware of this example). I see no reason to pillory someone for taking a case they believe in even if they are fictional.

Third, okay, I do agree about Charlie. She's whiny and stupid in this episode. Although, she's right about one thing - technically he could have changed the law, judges can do that. He would have likely had a lot of difficulty doing so though as it was statute, so she was being very unreasonable.

Fourth, well, you missed the point on that episode, as frankly did Deed. He got caught up in the ideal of 'we must preserve life', which was just as ideologically charged. The issue wasn't about what he believed or whether life should be preserved, but if a child was competent enough to make an adult decision. And on an objective look, he appeared so and should have been allowed to die. Maybe you didn't agree with those ideals, but you don't get to choose what a reasonable reason to die is and an arbitrary line is a poor reason for judgement as well. Mills seemed to understand this and only used his reasons as evidence of his maturity, that he was capable of making such decisions. I didn't see her as agreeing with what he believed...not at all, just that his decision ought to be respected. Though her conduct at the end was rather inappropriate, though I suppose she was drunk and emotionally distraught...

Fifth, that's just wrong. She was arguing that the man did not get a fair trial and ought to rather than just being ignored and left to die. She wasn't arguing that he ought to die. I don't see why it was wrong for her to argue that, if I remember correctly, she thought it was unfair because of something wrong with the evidence? I don't remember exactly. Not sure what your point is about her...this last part just seems like a rant to be honest.

It is kind of clear that you just don't really like the show...

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I do like the show actually, or at least the courtroom set-ups, ideas and conundrums (some of the tittle-tattle and relationship stuff can get a little soapy and melodramatic), as I wouldn't bother to write, even about the more difficult episodes, if I didn't respect what the show was aiming for and how it was written.

These two cases are the ones I found most difficult to square and both had strong differing views from a number of characters that were tough to handle as undoubtedly both the woman and boy were intelligent (I'd still argue the boy perhaps not rounded enough to make an adult decision, as he was under age I think, but to be honest had he been a few months older that would have been irrelevant so something of an unfair technicality and not something I should have based the argument against his choice so strongly on).

As is probably obvious I'm not a lawyer; history graduate and now a journalist (moreso sports), so lot of emotive writing and formulating and arguing opinions. I personally think the boy if still alive 20 years later would have been grateful for the outcome of the decision though still probably not to any degree the way it was handled. Though I understand that thought process is frankly irrelevant to the case and he probably did have the strict right to die; just found it hard to accept somebody with that potential giving it up at such a young age. I understand your point that Deeds was really more guilty of attempting to force the situation and put his own moral code and stamp onto somebody else than Mills was.

Again your arguments hold much stronger legal water than mine do and you're almost certainly right, although it must be said there are several times in the series Deed usurps legal president in ways much more popular and clear-cut within the series. One of the things I liked about these two episodes, despite being a little emotional and one-sided in the original post, is the fact that the legally and even morally correct opinion can be the more painful and difficult to accept one.

To the point specifically about the doctors, I haven't personally had that experience with doctors, though fortunately haven't had too much contact with them so far. My mum however has and had to really fight her corner in regards to the medical cover she was receiving and the way she was written about in her medical records for not just accepting treatment she disagreed with being clear on things.

My dad also got ME as a young, successful as it happens but overworked animator and it lead to (along with psychological stuff from when he was a kid) becoming bypolar. My aunt had to work for years to try and get him off Lithiam which was prescribed for many more years than it should have been and ended up causing two kidney failures, both survived but the second one severely weakening his constitution.

Lastly thank you for the nice long reply and you make very good points. It's not an easy job and it's one I wouldn't be cut out for with my sensibility. I do like actually that Mills is shown as being a heart as well as head lawyer and often times I agree with the way she's portrayed. It must be tremendously hard to keep it balanced.


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I quite like it as well. There really aren't any North American court room dramas (well, there was a short one about defence attorneys in America, but they cut that one real fast) and this was the first I saw. When I have more free time I will be looking into more British ones as I've been told Silk is rather good (although that's not my recommendation, I haven't got round to it yet).

In terms of the boy's right to decide, I think people find it tempting to say that he lacks competency to decide because of the nature of the decision and his choice. There is an inherent bias in most people to say 'it isn't rational to choose to die, therefore he is not rational, he cannot choose'. Except, this is a dying view in some respects. We've long accepted that adults can refuse medical treatment and we've reached the point where assisted suicide is becoming a right in many jurisdictions. Indeed, in Canada this year our Supreme Court sent down a ruling striking the criminal provision prohibiting it on constitutional grounds (well, within a year, they always give notice with something so big so that regulations can be made if the government is so inclined - it will be formally legal next year), meaning the government is prohibited from banning it. And this was a near thing as early as the 90s, actually (it just missed legalization then).

But in regard to minors, I have to point something out. Our law often holds minors to an adult standard. Criminally for example. If a minor commits a criminal act, often they may be tried as an adult and subject to the full consequences of their actions, even sometimes if they are years younger than 18. I also happen to know that in negligence if a minor is doing an "adult" activity (ex. driving) that they will be held to the standard of a reasonably competent adult regardless of age. And yet, many people are unwilling to extend adult rights to minors simply because they fall below an arbitrary line of determination of maturity. It is rather inconsistent that a minor risks being held to adult standards of responsibility if they do something, but when they ask to have some measure of determination over their own life, in a decision that is of the most fundamental importance to them, the hurdle is almost impossibly high. In fact, you might be appalled at how few legal rights minors actually have if you troubled yourself to inquire into the matter.

I'm not sure how I would articulate a standard for competency in making medical decisions, but that boy certainly would have met it and I would have as well at that age. And one thing I found problematic was how the impact on his family seemed to be argued as a factor. Such a thing has no bearing on competency and also has no bearing on what is in the child's best interests. Yes, it would be incredibly hard on the family if he died, but that wasn't at issue. What was were his rights as a person (not property) and whether he was capable of exercising them on his own or whether someone else should in his own best interest. Personally, I would have been inclined to choose between either granting him the rights or court appointing someone since the family, in my view, did not have his best interests in mind - they thought his principles were foolish and thought mostly of keeping the family intact I think. Not that I could blame them for the latter, people are emotional beings and have a hard time doing what is right. But I don't know that that is an excuse really. I know I will be the one ensuring such end of life wishes are carried out in my family and I feel honour-bound to respect all the wishes. Even if they did not want what I would prefer, I would do it (which is probably why my mother made sure I knew for all the close members of the family, come to think of it, actually).

In terms of the discord between legality and morality, it can be problematic. The law can go against prevailing morality and personal morality and there are a lot of fairly good examples simply because many governments don't represent the will or best interests of the people anymore (the US is now basically run by corporate interests...it's sad). But there are also ways that people can circumvent this when the law doesn't change. There's jury nullification for example. It's pretty rare, but when an accused person is plainly guilty, but the jury refuses to convict because they don't agree with the law, the law basically becomes unenforceable. This happened in Canada at first with the abortion restrictions (before they were struck). There was a really famous guy called Morgentaler who kept making clinics, which were illegal because they bypassed the highly restrictive regulations, and they kept arresting him. But they couldn't get convictions from juries. He was the one who later went on to get the whole prohibition struck, actually. He isn't alive anymore, but no one will forget him as he is responsible for ensuring abortion was available in all provinces and territories when previously it was almost impossible and you had to go through local committees that would sometimes even deny when it was dangerous not to have one. There's also when law enforcement just won't do anything. In British Columbia right now police aren't enforcing the marijuana laws and haven't for a while. BC cannot change the laws, because that's a federal issue, but they can ignore them. Not that it will matter much longer - we're heading to legalization with the new government. Also, in the 90s when there was that assisted suicide case that was lost, the woman who sued for the right had a doctor help her after anyway, with a government official present, and the police just refused to investigate even though it is against the law to do that (not so unpredictably, she lived in BC - I've thought about moving there at some point, they seem pretty liberal out there...but it's a lot more expensive apparently and they've got more natural disasters too).

As for precedent, it is not always wrong to defy a precedent. I don't know how familiar you are with the Courts, but generally speaking it works thus: (1) statute is binding on any court unless it is ruled unconstitutional; (2) the ruling of a higher court is binding on a lower court unless overturned by a higher court (and the highest court cannot bind itself). From the series, I take Deed to sit on one of the lower courts, so he shouldn't be overturning anything himself if he follows the rules (ha!). But something he could do is distinguish precedent and judges do that in a sneaky way of changing the law all the time. All they have to do is say - this is the precedent y, but it was decided on these facts, it was plainly not intended to apply to the facts in the present situation, so I'm going to make the new rule x. Of course, they could always be overturned, but not if the precedent is now in disfavour, maybe it is outdated or considered wrongly decided now.

And really, they can't do much to a judge who disobeys the rules. Judges are protected from being penalized for their decisions and for good reason - if they weren't there would be no judicial independence as the government could come along and dock pay or fire a judge for making an unpopular decision. But if a judge can get dismissed for bad behaviour, criminal things certainly. I'm not sure it really happens here, they're pretty selective. I'm also pretty sure a judge wouldn't be fired for sleeping with everyone like Deed is threatened with. Sure, it isn't ethical - there's a whole thing in the ethics code about not having conflicts of interest and I cannot imagine that doesn't apply to judges - but that would just bring sanctions and perhaps grounds for appeal. I heard of lawyers who did it, slept with clients or spouses of clients (ick) and they usually got warnings, fines, suspensions, etc. unless they did something for personal gain or something else despicable relating to it. It was never JUST sleeping with them. Although I repeat, ick, can't they find someone else to sleep with?

Oh, and just for kicks, this is the US system and they're just nuts, but did you hear about that judge who challenged a public defender to a fist fight, beat him up, and came back in to hear the cases without him present (so many things wrong with that, the biggest of which is that he broke the law by insisting on continuing to hear those cases without the defendants' attorney present...because he was bleeding outside...)? They didn't fire him. In fact, they only got round to suspending him a year and a half after the incident, probably just because of the viral video that leaked (the investigation only having started a year after the fight...). Oh, guess what state it was, bet you can get it in one if you didn't already know. Now I'd like to think that in Canada we'd fire the guy, or better yet, we'd not have made him a judge in the first place (if you did not know, the US elects most judges, so anyone can get in...recipe for disaster).

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OT, but I would like to comment how much Jo drove me crazy when she was almost obsessive/compulsive about the boy Michael. She finally made the right decision after three episodes, but it was tiring.

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