Just racists think this was rape! - Havoc (2005) Discussion

[–] Rufusifer 13 years ago

Seriously, I agree. There was no rape here. I just watched the scene and Anne Hathaway's character was there trying to stop Bijou Phillips but she kept saying she wanted to do it. She didnt specify that if it was all at once or one at a time but I still think there was consent. At least Anne's character had the decency to tell the truth.

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[–] PhoenixBlah 13 years ago

youngexec, either you're the biggest troll ever and in this case, that's...kinda funny... sort of.

Or you actually think what you post: a girl who has multiple sex partners is a slut, a girl who loses interest in a guy is a bitch, a girl who cries and asks two guys not to force themselves into her isn't a victim rape... and you need serious help.

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[–] murry-4 13 years ago

You're deluded to think there are two different realities. Rape is rape is rape and culture is irrelevant to the definition.

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[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] PhoenixBlah 13 years ago

God, what is wrong with you...
If a girl says she wants it and then decides she doesn't want it anymore, that's her choice. We see her scream "no" and we see the two guy trying to prenetrate her WHILE she screams 'no', so YES this is a rape.

A rape isn't just a girl molested by a guy in a parking lot. There are a lot of different types of rape.

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[–] uffdabock 13 years ago

We here her scream "no", one second later we flash to a screen of two guys penetrating her. Another "no" a second later and then they stop. Obviously there isn't a law that states the exact time that a guy has to stop having sex with a girl when she yells "stop" but 2 seconds seems reasonable to me when they were in a pretty complicated sexual position. To all of the idiots that are going to jump on my words and say "there is a law for the word stop! It's instantaneous!" So your saying that if you meet a nice girl, you go out on a date. You become real close and have sex that night, during sex in between strokes out of nowhere she yells "STOP!" like your playing simon says, and you accidentally stroke one more time then pull out, you raped her? That's why there is no clear law, every case has to be looked at individually. Unfortunately for Hector, it was a rich white girl vs an underprivileged Latino gang leader.

IF you think about the timeline, she was probably in the 3 way for a good 30 seconds before she decided to start screaming "NO". She thought she was "hard" and "tough" and could handle multiple guys and anal sex but she was wrong. Under the circumstances of her disrespecting the gang members culture on a number of occasions and acting like a pompous brat, it was actually pretty respectful of them to just walk away from the girls without giving them more *beep* for being crazy.

The people like PhoenixBlah, trying to convince us it was rape are not confused, they are just motivated by racism. It's very clear the ppl on this board claiming to be "law officers" or "students of the law" are well off white men/women. If a poor and underprivileged hot Latino girl was escorted to a frat party for some ivy league white college students and the same event occurred, the girl's pleas to the cops would be ignored. As they should because the girl's story was completely fabricated and the guys didn't rape her.

The rich white college guys would probably have even waited longer to get off the Latino girl. The reason I say that is because in both cases, the guys knew the girl was naive and out of her element so they didn't respect her, but in the case of what we saw in the movie, the gang members had enough sense to know that some rich white girls cry rape, so they stopped in fear of getting charged with a crime. Assuming the frat guys were sheltered and pompous, they might have even ignored her cries to STOP and just said; "cmon slut! I'm sure this isn't your first time getting gang banged", making that assumption only because she was Latino and poor.

The only reason Hector was charged is because she lied and let's be honest, a rich white girl's word of mouth against a Latino gang member is plenty of enough evidence for conviction. We live in a messed up world where the rich are allowed to get away with murder and the underprivileged poor are treated like rats that need to be exterminated. This coming from a white guy, thankfully I live in a city where all cultures are represented so I have an understanding of the trials that certain ppl face.

John C. Reilly grabbed modern comedy by the throat and gave it THE LAST RESORT!

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[–] PhoenixBlah 13 years ago

Uh ok, I didn't say anything about their race but I'm motivated by racism...
You know me so well, person that I've never met nor talked to before.

1)I didn't say anything about race. So the fact that it comes to YOUR mind that the guys are latino or black and that it matters shows a lot more about your personnality than mine.

2)Guys like you are so incapable of actually develop a good argumentation about the sexism issue that they need to change the problem. I was only personally talking about how a guy treats a girl, about rape and sexism in general and you answer with a 40 pages long message about racism. Pathetic.

3) About the whole "rape" question. I agree the scene is not very clear. First, for me they stop when the other girl rushes into the room, probably because they're surprised. And even if you don't believe that, the issue remains the same. It's about some guy who mentally abuse a girl by making her believe she HAS to have sex with them. The girl obviously isn't in her right mind and the guys take advantage of that. So in the end, even if you don't want to call it a rape, you can't just defend them like they're just good guys playing a game a stupid girl didn't understand.

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[–] uffdabock 13 years ago

She did understand the game. "She wasn't in her right mind" During the movie we see her doing crack/blow or other hard drugs, at the hotel we see her drinking some Tequila, so she was in a pretty stable state of mind for her standards.

"HAS to have sex with them" They didn't have to have sex with them. The girls never really wanted to be in the gang obviously, Emily just was a crazy slut that was bored of her high class white suburban lifestyle and wanted to shake things up a bit. She had even expressed interest in just having sex with one of the gang members at a previous party. The same gang member that she ended up picking at first. The only thing she didn't want to do was have a 3 way anal. But she didn't specify that it was not wanted and even hinted at the fact that it would be ok. So she wanted sex regardless of whether it allowed her into their "fun little gang" (as she probably would have put it). Asking to be inducted into a gang through sex with gang members, aka a gangbang is not something you just decide to do without thinking about it unless you are a really miserable and bored person, as Emily clearly was.

The manner in which you see her lying about to the cops after the fact just goes to show how horrible of a person Emily was and how she felt entitled to lie because hey, they were just Latino gang members. The movie clearly showed that Emily, others in her community and some of the cops were racist, so imo someone on this board supporting that it was rape whether they know it or not is racist.

"I didn't say anything about race. So the fact that it comes to YOUR mind that the guys are latino or black and that it matters shows a lot more about your personnality than mine."

There are many forms of racism you know. The majority of racist ppl are not going to have confederate flags hanging from their porch or blatantly use racial slurs to try to intimidate minorities. Many racist ppl are racist because they were raised in a suburban neighborhood where the majority of ppl in that rich white neighborhood treat minorities as lesser humans. They are used for manual labor like landscaping but other then that they are not allowed in the community. So while growing up the only positive view of inner city minorities that these kids get is the success stories of Rappers on mtv or professional sports players. They see them for what the national media portrays them as, "our entertainment".

It's easy enough for ppl to say "I have friends that are minorities, so I'm not racist." Making friends with people who live outside of the inner city is one thing, but making a tough decision such as keeping the justice system fair for all people, even tatted up gang bangers is another. Not every person raised in this suburban lifestyle will grow up thinking this way, but some ppl might have just enough racism in them to have it affect their decisions, such as "when is sex considered rape"?

John C. Reilly grabbed modern comedy by the throat and gave it THE LAST RESORT!

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[–] uffdabock 13 years ago

"2)Guys like you are so incapable of actually develop a good argumentation about the sexism issue that they need to change the problem. I was only personally talking about how a guy treats a girl, about rape and sexism in general and you answer with a 40 pages long message about racism. Pathetic."

BTW Pheoenix, I did make good argumentative points about the sexism issue and didn't "change" the problem, I just added another element to the discussion. It's ppl like you that hear the word "racism" and immediately discredit everything that person had said and don't even attempt to continue the argument. Complaining / exaggerating about my long posts are another sign that you fail at maintaining a level of composure when engaging in a forum discussion. Pathetic, that you are.

As for the sexism thing, there is usually some bias within sexes as far as guys agree with guys, and girls agree with girls. But when it is clear that the character Emily was just a horrible person and respected nobody including herself, I'm surprised you continue to defend her. Assuming your a girl, which I'm guessing you are. No guy has ever defended a multi convicted male rapist, seems your bias towards the X chromosome is greater then most.

John C. Reilly grabbed modern comedy by the throat and gave it THE LAST RESORT!

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[–] PhoenixBlah 13 years ago

I'll have to admit I find your first post pretty convincing. As a girl (like you sort of said it in the second message), it just feels wrong to me when I feel like a person is abused and I see guys denying it just because they seem annoyed by the evolution of feminism nowadays. That's obviously the OP's case. Go see the other stuff he has posted, it's all about: girls being slut if they have sex, girls being bitch for accusing of rape etc. I mean, even if he's right, does he seriously need to create an imdb account and post stuff JUST ABOUT THAT? That's why I'm defending her actions, not just because she's a girl and I'm a girl and OH FUN we should stick together. (by the way, you probably shouldn't amalgamate a girl accusing a guy of rape and a multi convicted rapist. Just saying)

So yeah, his reaction pissed me off. I still think Emily, no matter how annoying she was, is a troubled girl who doesn't think straight and therefore is really easy to abuse. Like you say, she takes a lot of drug, she drinks too much and has a reckless behaviour, that's certainly not the behaviour of someone feeling good.
For me, she's a minor, she seems to have lost all sense of what's right for her, those guys tell here she HAS TO if she wants to be part of the gang, even if that's not conventionnal rape, that's just not right.

So in the end, I can say you partially convinced me.

As for the second part: first, you've got to stop calling me a racist just because I think girls deserve a better treatment than those poor messages on the thread. I don't give a *beep* about the guys, they're black, latinos, white, asian, green *beep* I know that was a subject the OP was trying to discuss but it wasn't for me, I never mentionned anything about race because that had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

I complained about your post because the interesting things you said could have held in 3 lines. Then you rambled about some hypothetical case for AGES and it just didn't add anything to the conversation.

And the very last paragraph is when you admit you don't understand at all what I'm trying to say. I don't try to defend EMILY. I don't care about this character, she's annoying and frankly poorly constructed but then does it mean she isn't supposed to feel bad after the "rape"? The whole *beep* point is here. So when you're lost and confused and you make mistakes, if a guy takes advantage of your state, that's your fault? You're not allowed to be traumatized?

English is not my first language, not even my second, so I may not have your eloquence, that doesn't mean I "fail at maintenanig a level of composure when engaging in a forum discussion" (funny sentence by the way. A FORUM DISCUSSION. I didn't know it even required a level of composure)

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[–] uffdabock 13 years ago

Thanks for your great reply. Yea, your right the OP is a piece of garbage and is actually motivated by a prejudice, in this case against women. Pretty sad. After reading multiple threads about this same argument, "was it rape or not", I decided to make a long post and give my 2 cents, but I will admit I was rambling and I threw way more then 2 pennies into my post. I didn't mean to single you out, my posts were more a response to everyone on this board that was convinced it was rape. After trying to make sense of some people's unconvincing posts, I came to a conclusion that maybe some people are just racist and can't see the truth without that filter. It's clear you are not racist, maybe some people on this board are and maybe not. Either way, it was interesting to have a formidable person to debate with.

John C. Reilly grabbed modern comedy by the throat and gave it THE LAST RESORT!

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[–] Word-Weight 9 years ago

I just re-watched this film, and there actually was never a "no" in the beginning; I think people (understandably) mistook Emily's "Nrgh!" for "no!" However, the first moment she says, "Stop!" which is the only moment she says it, they indeed stop. The third gang member was even shocked to realize her expression had become one of horror. Hathway's character is not in the room by this point. She rushes in a long ways after both men have already parted from Emily because she heard them scream, "What the *beep* is wrong with you, bitch?" way after the fact.

The movie (and main character) go out of its way to reject Emily's rape claim, so the film's portrayal of that scene was not for victimization, but a person who was romanticizing the details of gang culture only to realize that they were not only out of touch with its reality, but way over their head --- at the very last minute. So we'd have to be arguing against the actual film's intention here.

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[–] Howlin Wolf 13 years ago

Socially/culturally 'accepted' rape is still rape.

The minute ANYBODY gets a sexual experience that differs from their expectations, they are entitled to say 'no'... (or an agreed codeword substitute, for BDSM experiences...) If circumstances persist, and 'no' is not listened to, then it is rape.

Whether 'no' was listened to in this particular circumstance is up for debate... The definition of rape, however, is not.

Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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[–] youngexec 13 years ago

And socially/culturally 'accepted' consent is still consent. If the word "no" is uttered in BDSM, does the sex stop? Nope. Is it rape? Nope.

Gang initiations have their own rules, distinct from the vanilla variety you espouse. That's why Allison backed the gang.

Emily wasn't raped.

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[–] Howlin Wolf 13 years ago

That's WHY I used BDSM as an example... This wasn't BDSM, she said no, therefore activity should have stopped... Simple.

The fact that you think consent can be conferred outside of the party who is supposed to be giving it is disturbing, and if I were a woman, I would be watching my drink around you at a bar.

Gangs are outlaws because they have their own code that exists outside the law... It doesn't mean that the law has not been broken. If a gang member murders to teach 'respect', that does not make the murder any less prohibited - same with rape. We all have to live by the same laws, and if you break those laws despite knowing that they are in place, you are not entitled to claim subsequently that the judgement is unfair.

Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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[–] youngexec 13 years ago

You mentioned BDSM because you were being "cool" not because you realized the implications of "BDSM"

Ya see, BDMS'er don't stop sex if they sense another's pain… which is really counter to the way most people view sex and consent. Yet somehow the snobby, Eurocentrists don't seem to mind this peculiar BDSM convention. "Oh that marquis de Sade…. He was so cutting edge" they praise.

Similarly, Latino gangs have their own way of doing things, but unfortunately their way of doing things falls short of the rich, suburban, Anglican "standards" that make BDSM acceptable. Nevertheless, just because certain racist white people don't like the rules of gang initiation doesn't mean those rules are any less "valid" than another more dominant culture's or subculture's.

You're right it wasn't BDSM. It was a gang initiation... with gang initiation guidelines! Emily asked to join. She wasn't conscribed.

No rape took place!

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[–] Howlin Wolf 13 years ago

I know why I mentioned it... that's why I mentioned it. Debate me all you want, but don't contradict my own actions. You're not that good.

Who mentioned pain? BDSM'ers stop if anybody involved is genuinely uncomfortable, and not pleasantly so... That's why they have safewords that are different to the traditional yes/no. We are led to believe that the girl in the movie was genuinely uncomfortable.

Gangs' way of doing things often falls outside the LAW, which is really the salient point, especially in this case.

I never mentioned BDSM in the context of this scene... I was using it as a comparison only, which you don't seem to have picked up.

She asked for something which she thought was different from what she actually GOT... which is why she complained, and was entitled to do so.

Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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[–] youngexec 13 years ago

You're so easy to read… guy self named howling wolf… that you needn't worry about whether I'm that good or not.

And you have it wrong. Typical lovemaking breaks when discomfort is detected, without words needing to be uttered whereas BDMS'ers use safe words precisely because they DO NOT STOP if anybody is genuinely uncomfortable. As I communicated before…the rules of stopping for vanilla , BSDM, and gang ignition sex are all different and equally valid.

Yup Emily did complain, but the problem is that too many of y'all think that a rich white girl's complaint constitutes rape. And that's racist. Emily agreed to a gang initiation… and thus to the conditions surrounding that. Pro football players beat on each other until the whistle blows, not until the other guy cries uncle. On the street this would constitute assault, but not on the grid iron. Those are the rules!

Emily wasn't raped.

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[–] Howlin Wolf 13 years ago

Do you know WHY I'm named that? Again, no you don't... You're just making baseless assumptions, so can it.

I have it right, because I agree with your definition of BDSM and have never disagreed... The difference is, having safewords as a fallback option denotes consent, whereas the use of the word 'no' does not.

You're the one mentioning the terms 'rich white girl'... and then you say that I'm racist?! My parameters of consent (and more importantly, those of the LAW, which you seem to keep forgetting about...) cover people of every economic status, ethnicity and sex... You're the one claiming special exemption due to certain social rituals - and that is absolute bull.

In games there are clearly defined rules that each willing participant is subject to, as also is the case in law... No laws are broken on the gridiron; laws were broken in this case. She was no longer a willing participant.

Think of the word 'no' as equivalent to a whistle being blown.

Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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[–] youngexec 13 years ago

Do you have a mental deficiency or just refuse to admit it when you are wrong?

The universal function of the safeword is to signal lack of consent (the equivalent of "No or "Stop"), not consent!

I am not interested in whether racist legal conventions were broken. They may or may not have been. I am interested in whether there was a violation of the verbal agreement that took place between parties . And there was not. Get over your blind deference to the LAW! It is illegal to buy sex toys in Alabama, dude.

When Emily decided to join the gang, she did the same thing that every other person who becomes a gang member, football player, or a cell phone users does ie. consent to terms that put "stoppage" into the hands of a 3rd party.

No rape took place.

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[–] Howlin Wolf 13 years ago

The universal function of the safeword is to signal lack of consent (the equivalent of "No or "Stop"), not consent!

WHICH IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG. I AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS TINY POINT! Geez, learn to read an entire post instead of just skimming words and jumbling them up to create a strawman. The only reason I ever brought up BDSM at all is it's the only context where the word 'no' could possibly be justifiably disregarded.

Rape took place in the eyes of the law... This is the only permutation that matters. If you refuse to acknowledge the law, then I refuse to give any credence whatsoever to your argument. I'm done here. It's impossible to have a rational discussion with somebody so bullheaded.

Just because you're looking for ways to excuse being a sex pest does not make it OK... You're on ignore, and I'm only going to take you off in order to mock you.

Born when she kissed me, died when she left me, lived whilst she loved me

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[–] youngexec 13 years ago

No rape took place in the eyes of Hector.
No rape took place in the eyes of Allison.
No rape took place in the eyes of Emily’s parents... after Allison tells them he truth.
No rape took place in the eyes of the law... after Allison did not corroborate.
It is ONLY in the eyes of racists that a rape took place.

If white BDSM’ers can justifiably disregard “No”, and make up their own rules of consent, then the Latino gang members in the middle of an initiation with a volunteer should be able to as well.

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[–] lebellue 13 years ago

Once two men started forcibly having sex with her at the same time..It was rape...
(Before anyone gets all huffy and offended I want to add that I realize that Emily was partly to blame because of her ignorance or naivete and didn't accept that responsibility)

It's one thing to consent to having sex with three men, one at at time..A TOTALLY different situation to have 2 or three on the girl at once. And it looked like they were becoming three until Allison came in and stopped it. They obviously weren't paying any attention to Emily's screams and pleading NO.

They both were prenetrating her..One from the back and one from the front..And who knows in what way...How horrible for a young girl...Although she had bad judgement to get into that situation, that was not the agreement!! She didn't ask for that.......

Having so many men on a girl at once can be VERY harmful physically let alone emotionally! Men are very strong and even just one man can overpower a woman. Two or three? How horrifying for her.....She was like a ragdoll in their hands....

That's my worst criticism of that movie is that they made out as if she wasn't really raped...And she was raped!

Obviously Emily wasn't up front to her parents and the police and it would have been best for her not to even tell the authorities. It would have been best for her to deal with it some other way (inner searching, friends, therapy) since she was more at fault then she let on...BUT the gang took advantage of her naivete and she didn't deserve that. She could have been seriously injured. Anyone who says it wasn't rape has no respect for women or in someone's right to own and protect their own body.

AND as far as that comment about racism....I wouldn't care if these guys were lily white Harvard MBA grads, construction workers, grocery store clerks, black rap artists, or a long-lost relative (God forbid!)....My opinion is the same!

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[–] youngexec 13 years ago

One at a time?

What are you talking about? Gang initiations are parallel, not serial. Thus the term "Gangbang". Men are beaten simultaneously and women are screwed simultaneously. Get a clue.

Emily wasn't raped. Even her friend admits as much.

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[–] lebellue 13 years ago

YOU get a clue....YES, one at a time. I said Emily was young,naive, and ignorant. She didn't expect that they were going to gang rape her. She thought she was going to be having sex with them one at a time.... And it was also obvious that they were being EXTREMELY rough with her, which could be very dangerous when you have 3 strong men on a woman at once. Especially when they have no concern about your physical wellfair.

Also in response to your comment....................

"Emily wasn't raped. Even her friend admits as much."

I want to say that just because a movie script says something, it doesn't mean that it is correct. I would assume that you realize this and don't believe everything you hear....But I will admit that we have different opinions on this rape issue....But bringing up how her friend (Hathaway)felt about it in the movie is not what makes for truth in this matter.

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[–] youngexec 13 years ago

What high schooler thinks “GANGBANG” means one at a time? None! Emily wasn’t naive. She was an entitled, narcissistic, racist. Oh and here's your clue...
"I can handle 3, it's just sex, my ONLY condition is that I get to choose the 3"

Gang initiations are brutal. Hector and his crew weren't being rough with Emily. They were actually taking it easy on her by going two at time rather than three at once. And by letting the spoiled princess pick the guys. Yup! "Airtight" by randoms is what she could have gotten.

Yeah and just because a movie script says something, doesn’t mean it’s false. Hathaway becomes the voice of reason. You just don’t like what she has to say.

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[–] sb06226 13 years ago

Never watched the scene - couldn't sit thru the movie.

I can say however that some folks on here really have no clue as to the legal definition of rape.

It's not even just when she says no - its also about express verbal consent. I am under the impression she asked for it to start, but with the breakdown of each sexual act, verbal consent is supposed to be obtained from the recipient(s) or both parties depending on the act. Obviously most people don't ask their partner during each act if they are willing, but to the law - without expressed, informed verbal consent it is rape. A basic sex ed course will teach you that 2 seconds is too long, and in 99% of cases, physical resistance (could be pushing, could be simply tensing) occurs before verbal. The only time when we are taken out of this is with sexually deviant (I mean no offense, these are the legal terms) acts which include resistance both verbal and physical. Then the safe word or gesture is treated as the barrier for consent.

Ford.
Yes?
I think I'm a sofa.
I know how you feel.

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[–] youngexec 13 years ago

Actually it is you that really has not clue as to the legal definition of rape.

Almost every state is different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[–] sb06226 13 years ago

No, there are federal statutes for rape. This means there is a basic minimum criteria for every state to follow. Every state varies on punishment, and severity of crime (1st degree, 2nd degree, etc - but these variations are small), and lesser crimes (sexual assaults) have variations as well(which is probably where you are confused, because they may or may not be added in a prosecution, depending on the state). But no, in the United States, rape is rape is rape.

When you are talking about statutory, the age does vary in certain states - and some other factors can effect guilt - marriage, emancipation etc.

The punishment may not always be the same, and it may not always include the word "rape" in the convicted charge, but its all listed under the rape statute, and its all rape.

Now when you are talking about oral and anal penetration - these were not listed as rape federally (which most states have listed them as such). However, in tandem with traditional intercourse - the vocal use of the word no applies in the same manner, and the act itself then becomes a contributing force to the "rape", so that would get a second degree charge - as its violence and implication of pain etc etc. I don't live in California, but I'm pretty sure it is one of the many states that recognized sodomy as rape (but either way she was saying "no" not just telling him to stop).

Also important to note- since you seem to think you are up to date on federal laws, that this definition has changed this year, to include the above listed. The federal definition will be more inclusive - victim advocacy groups have been fighting for this for years (since most states have already accepted it as part of their definitions, and the federal definition skews statistics) and they've been successful. So federal rape statistics will probably climb drastically over the next few years, while state statistics for most states will reflect better any true changes.

Ford.
Yes?
I think I'm a sofa.
I know how you feel.

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[–] youngexec 13 years ago

You are a pathological liar.

Under what circumstances does federal law trump state? Tell the board!

What was the federal law in 2005 different than the current law? Tell the board!

Is explicit verbal consent listed in the federal law in 2005? Tell the board

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[–] hodie1 10 years ago

That is such *beep* There are no Federal laws about rape in the US. The governing law is that of the state in which the crime occurs.

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[–] MyNameIswha 13 years ago

i agree with you. and come on if this girl is really rich, then she can afford tv and computer, she has to know what happens in gangs. she could have gone through something much worse, a whole group of men could have been on her, choking her in their desperation to have sex with her. she went to that place knowing what could happen, i feel no pity for her.

if a woman goes to a place where women are raped, and then cry and whine about being "raped"? what the heck was she doing there if she wasnt willing to be raped. she said she could handle 3 and thats what they gave her. they were actually quite gentle with her. she wasnt beaten into submission, they didnt pull in the other girl and rape them both. they stopped, and thats more than most criminals would do.

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[–] sb06226 13 years ago

It's not rape if its voluntary. You can't be "willing to be raped". sigh.

Ford.
Yes?
I think I'm a sofa.
I know how you feel.

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[–] MyNameIswha 13 years ago

sigh... what i meant was that she went into the situation willingly and then calls it rape. she went into that situation knowing it could be dangerous and things could happen that she could not stop. that yes she was going into this situation where some guys could rape her. so yes she went there "willing to be raped" what did she expect in a room full of gangbangers love making?

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[–] sb06226 13 years ago

It doesn't matter if she went in expecting it or not - the fact is every person has the right to stop it at any point. It's not crying rape - once she says no, it is rape. By the way, you have no idea what something like that is going to be like until you are actually there. You can watch every documentary, be aware of the culture and the people, and be educated on the topic - but its never what you would imagine.

I have a question for you. If a woman wears a tight skirt and walks into a shady bar with felons as frequent patrons - would she be asking to be harassed - or is she looking for a drink?

Or a girl who gets into a car with a guy she cares for, they get involved, and she decides shes not ready. Is it OK for her to change her mind?

where is your line? When do you think its OK for someone to ignore you saying no? When are you asking for it?

Ford.
Yes?
I think I'm a sofa.
I know how you feel.

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[–] MyNameIswha 13 years ago

its not rape, they stopped when she freaked out. they thought she was okay with a 3P, but stopped when she freaked. and yes if you know that rapes happen like they do in places where gangs live in, then logically you know not to go to a gangsters house.

do i think a woman over deserves to be raped? no of course not, as a woman i would love to rip my clothes off and run around the world and not worry about the sickos and the perverts. but this is real life, in real life women have to be careful.

so no i dont think a woman that wears a skimpy outfit in a bar, deserves to be raped. but she is being stupid to be going to a shady place and drinking something that will lower her inhibitions. that example however, has nothing to do with getting in a car with someone you care about.

if its someone you care about you know its safe to get in the car. if its a random guy you meet in the street that you like, you use common sense. you meet in public, take your own car until you really know him better.

there are all kinds of risks in the world and we are never 100 percent safe. but we do have to be cautious, and know about all the bad things that can happen. this girl went to that house willing to have sex with multiple men, sadly she got what she went there for.

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[–] sb06226 13 years ago

"so no i dont think a woman that wears a skimpy outfit in a bar, deserves to be raped. but she is being stupid to..."

Stupid. Right. In every place I see fit to go, I never expect to be harassed, raped, etc. I have had to go to many "shady" places for my job. Does that make me stupid too? Just curious at what point it makes a woman stupid to think she can move freely without expecting to be attacked. You should also know that acquaintance rape is the most common form - so the man or woman you trust, not always safe. Since we are more likely to be raped by someone we know, perhaps that bar is the safest place.

You keep saying "you do this" "you do that". Yes, you and I know that the world is not a safe place, but the fact is - when a person gets raped, no matter what they wore, what they did, or where they went, the rape isn't their fault. It's the rapists. We should all protect ourselves, but that doesn't change fault, and it certainly doesn't make someone stupid. Perhaps naive.

Also, it took multiple nos to get them to stop. And as I mentioned previously, its not just "no means no", its also getting explicit verbal consent for each act, without coercion, threats of violence, or being a state that you are unable to truly consent. You re-watch that scene and tell me if you don't see why this is rape as far as the law is concerned.

I'll let it drop here. I encourage anyone reading this to pick up a couple of law books, just to better understand the definitions. In fact, I would say venturing onto the federal site would be better, because of the changes made this year. Peace to you.

Ford.
Yes?
I think I'm a sofa.
I know how you feel.

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[–] youngexec 13 years ago

Don't listen to sb06226's lies and nonsense.

If a BSDM sub consents to be gangbanged and agrees that her safeword is "red", the 3 dudes screwing can keep screwing her even if she screams "No" at the top of her lungs. In anyone reasonable person's eyes there is no rape even though she said "No"

Likewise, when a prissy, entitled suburbanite consents to a gang initiation, where the control is expressly in the hands of the members, and where "No means no" is not part of the gangs "rules" then the scene is not rape… even if they had continued.

If the crew had used 4 guys or guys Emily hadn't picked then and ONLY then would it have been rape. But they didn't. No rape took place, unless you are a stupid racist.

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[–] MyNameIswha 13 years ago

i noticed we have a difference in a opinion its best not to even bother. besides the scene wasnt even so bad, if they were truly rapists, they would never have bothered stopping at all, they would have pulled in the other girl and raped them both. why wasnt the first girl forced? and besides they stopped after a few nos because this was the girl that confidently said she could take 3. i still think the smartest thing a woman can do is to be smart and avoid going to shady/dangerous places on her own. but thats just me.

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[–] youngexec 13 years ago

I can't believe the nerve of someone like that when they haven't even watched the scene in question. And you are too right about the gang NOT attacking both girls, which they could have easily done. I think all the "Emily was raped" camp don't like the idea that women need to be smart, responsible and own their part in creating situations like these.

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[–] MyNameIswha 13 years ago

as a woman, i completely agree with you. women do need to be responsible and smart to avoid situations like that. it may not be possible to avoid them completely, because its dangerous anywhere really. but there are some situations that can be avoided, like the one in this movie.

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[–] sb06226 13 years ago

terestrife- It's not a difference of opinion, its a matter of fact as determined by the law. You really ought not to agree completely with that chap, either. Of course women should protect themselves, but you are aware he did just say once shes in the situation, its what she gets - even if its her intend to stop. If you really feel that way, I sure hope you never change your mind about wanting to sleep with someone, and they ignore it. It's really not a position you'll want to find yourself in.

Other chap - Like I said, I didn't watch the whole movie, but if a woman has to say no multiple times (which was mentioned previously in the thread), its rape. I don't care if she says at the start she can handle it, or wants it (which I did see that part of the scene). EVERYONE has the right (by law) to change their mind at any point. You think being in a gang initiation changes that to make it ok? It actually adds to the crime, because its coercion - and can actually bump up the degree of assault. You don't have to think its rape, assault, or anything of the sort. The fact is, the law recognizing it as soon as that word it uttered, anything after is a crime.

If a person is in a scenario with a safe word, that is different. I pointed that out previously. If she says no, and there is no safe word, no means no. If you think a woman can't change her mind at any point (a man for that matter as well) you really have no clue about the law. Your opinion on whether something is rape or not is not relevant, that is determined by law. It has nothing to do with race, religion, or even prejudice for gang lifestyles, its just a fact - after no is said (assuming this is not a deviant scenario), the circumstances leading up to this point DO NOT MATTER. It doesn't matter that they left the other girl alone either. It wasn't "generous" of them. In a gang this (and more) is perfectly acceptable behavior. That doesn't matter. Gang life doesn't protect you from federal or state law, they are absolute. And at at point in any sexual encounter, every party member has the right, by law, to stop it.

I am quite appalled by the lack of education in this group. Really don't expect anyone to know the ins and outs of the law, but you should have some idea as to what constitutes rape.
Ford.
Yes?
I think I'm a sofa.
I know how you feel.

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[–] MyNameIswha 13 years ago

how can you compare changing your mind about wanting to sleep with one guy, to what the girl in the movie did? she went into a home full of gang members wants sex with multiple guys. sex with guys with a violent life style. its not the same thing at all. after the way she acted the least she could have expected from that situation was to have sex whether she ended up wanting too or not. in a house filled with gangsters ready for a gangbang at that point theres really no turning back. another thing is to be with a guy that you trust and he ends up being a rapist. you can never know people completely, but she knew these men were gangsters, gangsters have a reputation for being involved in gangbangs, rapes, killings. im going to stop here you are just going to keep repeating the same thing over and over. i wont be replying anymore...

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[–] sb06226 13 years ago

"she could have expected from that situation was to have sex whether she ended up wanting too or not" The "not" is rape. If you don't understand that, you need to be fixed. GL.

Ford.
Yes?
I think I'm a sofa.
I know how you feel.

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[–] MyNameIswha 13 years ago

she CHOOSE to go there, knowing it could happen, so its not rape.

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[–] sb06226 13 years ago

It's chose, not choose.

All I can imagine with that comment is that you are trolling. If you aren't, you truly are uneducated and ill-informed. I hope you take a little time and read a little - on anything really. Only up from where you are.

Ford.
Yes?
I think I'm a sofa.
I know how you feel.

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[–] MyNameIswha 13 years ago

i can tell i've won, when the only thing you can criticize is a simple typing error. how sad. lol

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[–] sb06226 13 years ago

I'm not criticizing, I'm correcting. In both your "typing" error, and your information. You don't win, you are incorrect. I just find my time is better spent with people with braincells.

The laws are constantly changing, and you appear to be stuck in the 60's, when men could still have sex with their wives without their consent. I'm not going to keep arguing with you. Feel free to call a civil lawyer in your state, contact a court and do a formal inquiry, whatever you like. It's not hard to find this information. Every person in every state has the right to change their mind at any point during a sexual encounter, if these changes aren't respected, then it becomes a criminal matter. I'm sure someday you will find yourself on the sex offender registry, because you refuse to get with the times. At least we know you've been informed.

Ignore.

Ford.
Yes?
I think I'm a sofa.
I know how you feel.

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[–] youngexec 13 years ago

Yup. When the grammar Nazi shows up it's time to pat yourself on the back.

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[–] RichCrenshaw 13 years ago

"It doesn't matter if she went in expecting it or not - the fact is every person has the right to stop it at any point. It's not crying rape - once she says no, it is rape."

Could you explain the last part a little more?

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[–] uffdabock 13 years ago

My final take on this situation is that even though laws are supposed to be clear and protect every American citizen equally, in court the reality is that they do not. White people, by a vast majority over other races, go through a court process and even though they were guilty going in, do not get charged to the fullest extent of the crimes committed. Many of them never even have to show up to court and lie, the lawyers take care of that. So while the US law shows that in this scene rape occurred, the same situation will not always be judged equally. Words will be used to spin the truth and "he said" "she said" will ultimately decide the verdict.

For comparison look at how some cops deal with drunk drivers. Three separate people, a 35 year old attractive white women, a 45 year old white construction worker or business worker(depending on the state) and a 21 year old black entertainer all get pulled over for slightly swerving on the road. They all get questioned and in this case 2 get to leave with a warning and one gets cuffed, and is charged with a DUI at the very least if he's lucky.

To trust our judicial system to enforce our laws fairly is an ignorant way of thinking. This will never be the case and racism will always be part of the problem until the end of time. Having a moral discussion of whether you think it was right or wrong, aka rape or not, is more valid then spitting out legal text and saying /thread.

John C. Reilly grabbed modern comedy by the throat and gave it THE LAST RESORT!

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[–] youngexec 13 years ago

Wrong. No rape took place. Emily volunteers for the gang initiation.

What you fail to realize about racism and the court system is that being of a certain color allows one to use the system to settle vendettas by finding and construct crime where there truly is none.

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[–] hodie1 10 years ago

Rape is a legal concept, not a matter of crowdsourced opinion. It really doesnt matter what Allison thought; she is neither a lawyer nor part of law enforcement. She was a stupid jaded rich kid. Emily was raped.

The guy on her waited til her back was turned before silently motioning the second guy over. There was a reason for that. They waited until she became hysterical before they finally .got off her. Did Emily get herself into that situation? Possibly. Did she consent throughout the sexual act. NO.

Let's assume Allison never got into law school.

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[–] Word-Weight 9 years ago

You guys confused the timeline of the clips. Emily never said "no," she said, "Nrgh!" and then when she finally says, "Stop!" both men leave the bed. That didn't happen by Allison coming in to stop it; they stopped before Allison even realized something had happened because they finally realized what was happening. She came in after hearing them scold her, but by that time they were already pulling their pants up.

Prior to this scene, she asked Hector to be rough with her, and acted like she enjoyed being roughed by the first male, so by them all observing this, they had a delayed response to associating her final reponse with displeasure, hence their heated, rather confused reaction; that's why the third male was squinting at her instead of joining in; he was trying to read her face, and looked surprised at what he was seeing on it; the same moment he shows that surprise is the same moment the men get off her.

The largest issue that motivated this scene was the misunderstandings and misinterpretations of everyone's terms between both social groups (and genders; I personally find it confusing when women scream rather terribly while being sexed and then affiliate that with evidence of a great, black-out inducing lay, because as a woman, it doesn't sound nor seem pleasant to me, but rather like an encouraged rape fantasy for the sake of men to get off to. Too many women "cater" to that screaming antic which turns some men on, and then you end up with misinterpreting men who can't tell whether it's really "screaming grunts" or musical notes of pleasure until the four-letter-word stop is thrown).

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[–] hodie 12 years ago

She changed her mind. They continued. That is rape. She wasn't the brightest bulb in the drawer, so I really don't care what she thought. She doesn't make the laws, and neither do you.

"Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?"

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[–] AtheistRevolution 11 years ago

I agree, it wasn't rape. I think its probably just feminazis calling it rape. They did immediately end it when she said no. There are plenty of real life gang rapes where it doesn't stop after they say no. I don't know why someone would try to argue rape for a movie.

- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

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[–] PricelessStar 9 years ago

No violation took Place?! Well this just shows how sick and women degrading you foreigners are! So if you Think jumping her anad anal rape her without consent, then you're a racist!? That just shows what sick you immigrants are! White people would never hurt a girl like this! But you are animals and have no compassion or understand for what pain cause girl when you rape them. I'm so sad that my country is beeing flooded by sick women degrading immigrants like you who Thinks rape being called rape are racist. This just shows me even more how sick you immigrants are.

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