I still have yet to see this film, but I just watched a trailer for it and was left scratching my head by the message that flashes across the screen:
"One side fought for god's glory, the other for his kingdom on Earth."
I'm not religious, and I haven't read the novel upon which this film is based, but what exactly is that statement supposed to mean? The Union fought against slavery, which I would assume to be an endeavor concomitant with both of the above concepts in the eyes of most Christians, so to which side is each meant to refer?
One of the reasons I've gone so long without seeing the film is because I've heard that it depicts both sides as being "right", and the Civil War as being ultimately unnecessary, and the trailer does nothing to dispel that idea. Is it just a poor trailer, or is that the message of the film?
------ I'm only five foot one I got a pain in my heart
I always assumed "one side fought for God's glory" was the South, probably meaning that the Confederate generals who are depicted in the film, especially Jackson, were considered to be more religious than their Union counterparts, like Jackson not wanting to fight on Palm Sunday etc. The quote implies that the Southerners were simply guided by their religious beliefs, and did not consider slavery as a major cause of the conflict. Throughout the movie, Confederate generals and Southerners are shown praying to God, worshipping etc, while the Northerners are not depicted in the same way. This is atleast how I've interpreted it.
The other quote implicate that the Union is fighting for a better/more equal society on earth, by fighting against slavery. In the movie we also see Union soldiers loot, fire at civilians etc. The movie is probably the most pro-southern movie in years, the trailer is really misleading.
I can't really answer your question about which side is which, but I do want to point out an error in your writing.
The Union fought against slavery, which I would assume to be an endeavor concomitant with both of the above concepts in the eyes of most Christians, so to which side is each meant to refer?
First of all, slavery in the United States died during the Civil War, but it was *not* the *cause* of the Civil War. This is an easy answer given to gradeschoolers who have difficulty with complicated subjects, and the American Civil War is certainly one of those. As with the vast majority of wars fought on this earth, this war was also primarily fought for economic reasons, of which slavery was a minor point. I'm not going to deny that it was an issue at all: It certainly was, but it was definitely *not* the primary focus of the war. Think about it: As prevalent as racism is in the USA today, do you *really* think that 150 years ago over 2 million men went to war -- willing to die -- for the sake of freeing blacks? or that the million or so Confederates *all* went to war so that their rich neighbors could keep their slaves?
History is written by the winners of wars, and the reason the Confederates fought has been buried very deeply. This movie portrays their cause with absolute clarity.
Secondly, have you read the Bible lately? The Bible not only condones slavery, but has detailed verses on whom you can own and how much to pay (including how much you can expect to sell your own daughter into slavery). For every Christian who stood up saying, "Hey, slavery is unchristian," two would stand up, point at the Bible, and say, "What are you talking about?"
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When people say it was about slavery, they don't mean the North fought to free the slaves; they mean slavery was the cause thanks to the firebrands who convinced the South that that "black" Republican Abe Lincoln was going to take their slaves and sully their honor and women and blow up China with his mind and they had better rebel before he did.
There is a man...he travels fast...he has purpose...he brings violence and destruction.
Movieman, are you aware that four of the seceding states sent proclamations to congress explaining why they were seceding and all of them clearly stated that the main reason was because they feared the government (the incoming Lincoln administration) would abolish slavery in their states? That's fact.
Now, I will agree that the North probably didn't fight mainly to free slaves, But, for the South, that and pride were nearly the ONLY reasons.
Most of this Southern pride, heritage not hate thing arouse with the Lost Cause of the Confederacy movement in the late 1800s. Look it up.
Evidently you haven't read the whole Bible. That the Bible condones slavery is a misguided concept.
While it is true that the Bible does not come right out and condemn slavery, What people fail to understand is that slavery in Biblical times was somehwhat different than the idea we have of slavery in the 1800's. It had more to do with social status than it had to do with race. The role that slaves played in biblical times was more akin to the role that a butler and a maid would have played in Victorian England. the Bible does in fact make outlines of how slaves should be treated. It was really not that much different than working for room and board. And what was considered a slave in Biblical times, often they were payed and simply were a lower social class with lower paying jobs.
However, a fact largely ignored by Anti-Christians is that slavery based on race IS in fact condemned in the Bible. Read Exodus a little closer if you don't believe me. God unleashes plagues on Egypt for having Hebrews as slaves just for being Hebrew.
Southerners spoke contemptuously of Black Republicans; seceded their states because they thought Lincoln wanted "Negro Equality;" and referred to the Emancipation Proclamation a document from the pit of Hell.
By 1860, slavery had a greater net worth than all the capital invested in railroads, banks and factories combined. So while the North went to war in 1861 to preserve the Union and to answer the rebellion of the Southern states, the central issue of Black slavery was the reason the South went to war.
Please read the well-researched Battle Cry of Freedom by James M. McPherson, a man who has researched the Civil War and its issues for 50 years, probably longer than you've been alive. His award-winning book might not give you the answers you want, but it has the truth.
<<<Think about it: As prevalent as racism is in the USA today, do you *really* think that 150 years ago over 2 million men went to war -- willing to die -- for the sake of freeing blacks? or that the million or so Confederates *all* went to war so that their rich neighbors could keep their slaves?
History is written by the winners of wars, and the reason the Confederates fought has been buried very deeply.>>>
What individual soldiers fight for is why the war lasts as long as it does and why its as bloody as it was. Its not why it started. The motivations for those who called for secession conventions, those who were delegates to it, and those who drafted and ratified the Secession Ordinances is who you have to look at to lay blame for the war. A cause that they themselves stated was the protection of slavery. The soldiers didn't have to fight for slavery they were doing the bidding of people who were. The Lost Cause came to be precisely because the South wrote the initial history of the war, literally. The first scholarship of the war was almost primarily Southern, the North so anxious for reconciliation did not refute what was said. The South had their say for almost 70 years after the war. Sometimes the losers write the history too.
"First of all, slavery in the United States died during the Civil War, but it was *not* the *cause* of the Civil War."
It really was, and I'll keep this short for clarity's sake. Prior to the war the South wasn't so concerned with States' Rights. Only when it suited them. For instance, the Fugitive Slave Act was something they supported despite it violating the States' Rights of Northern states. Economic policy was another one, too.
Also, the letters of the time all refer to slavery. If the participants said it was about slavery, then it was about slavery. They controlled every branch of government for decades up until the last few years of the 1850s. Suddenly they could not wield more electoral power than they actually deserved (thanks to the 3/5ths clause in the Constitution) and they literally just threw a fit. They knew that in order to keep slavery they had to maintain a tight grip on all facets of government. Once their grip slipped, they could not guarantee they could keep slaves ignorant, keep Northern papers out of the South, or enforce the Fugitive Slave Act.
Sure, lots of Southerners did fight for home and country, and propaganda during and after the war tried to frame the conflict in other terms to make reconciliation easier. The two sides could not reunite so long as race was considered a factor, because the South wouldn't stand for black equality. The North grew tired of fighting for black rights by the mid-1870s and a culture of the "noble soldier's sacrifice" took hold. It was easier to forget about the slave cause and focus on the actual experience of war. Soldiers united over their shared sacrifices during fighting. And afterwards they were honored with memorials. Black rights was simply too divisive.
And over one hundred years later, many people still buy the post-war propaganda that it wasn't about slavery.
"As with the vast majority of wars fought on this earth, this war was also primarily fought for economic reasons, of which slavery was a minor point. I'm not going to deny that it was an issue at all: It certainly was, but it was definitely *not* the primary focus of the war. Think about it: As prevalent as racism is in the USA today, do you *really* think that 150 years ago over 2 million men went to war -- willing to die -- for the sake of freeing blacks? or that the million or so Confederates *all* went to war so that their rich neighbors could keep their slaves?"
And slavery was not a minor economic issue. Slavery was THE economic issue. Without slavery the South wouldn't have an economy and they knew it.
Your latter statement mixes up the two sides. The South fought for slavery. They were terrified it would be taken away or weakened. You're right that not every Northerner fought for slavery. That's why the government used the "Union" argument for the first few years of the war. But before the war there was an extensive and widely distributed literature condemning slavery. While most whites did not support black equality, most did support the end of slavery. Getting rid of slavery meant there were more jobs for whites. Free labor was the definitive issue in the North during the 1850s.
So yeah, a Northern soldier might not say he was fighting to end slavery in 1861, but the Southern soldier would absolutely admit to defending it. And by the end of the war you'd better believe most Northerners saw the value in ending slavery and were eager for it. But equality and Emancipation are two different things.
"Secondly, have you read the Bible lately? The Bible not only condones slavery, but has detailed verses on whom you can own and how much to pay (including how much you can expect to sell your own daughter into slavery). For every Christian who stood up saying, "Hey, slavery is unchristian," two would stand up, point at the Bible, and say, "What are you talking about?" " --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since you have opened this can of worms, it should be addressed and corrected. Yes, slavery was in the Old Testament. More specifically, people would indenture themselves for the purpose of a) providing for their families and b) for the purpose of attaining some goal or end (as did one Hebrew patriarch who worked for his master for 14 years to qualify for the woman he loved).
In the New Testament, it is clear that believers are only "slaves to Christ". This does not mean in the sense of being indentured. It points out that we who know Christ as Lord AND Savior, demonstrate our love for Him by following His will and example.
When Paul speaks of slavery, he is merely pointing out tha,t whatever condition one is in when they come to salvation through Jesus Christ, they should endeavor to do their best, not for their master (if they happen to be in slavery), but for God. Ergo, if a person becomes a Christian and they happen to have been a slave when they were saved, they should be the best worker for their earthly master, without complaint, soas to better show Christ to others.
In no way does it "condone" slavery.
The reason Lincoln had the U.S. Army attack the CSA was not because of slavery. He attacked them because they exercised their constitutional right to secede from the U.S. Lincoln believed that, had the CSA been allowed to be succesful, it would have doomed the United States Republic.
In point of fact, slavery was, most likely, on its way out, as it was. Yes, it was profitable to the Confederate States of America. Howeve, it was becoming much less so. It is quite possible that it would have died its much anticipated death without the invasion from the North.
One extremely telling scene is that where, one evening, Stonewall Jackson was talking to the black man that he had hired to cook for the troops. Thye had a normal, civil conversation. Then, as both were Christians, they prayed together. When the cook prayed for freedom and, by extention, the end of slavery, Jackson gave no objection. He joined with this black man in his prayer.
Obamunism! The death of the Republic! The price of Freedom is less than the price of Repression!
He attacked them because they exercised their constitutional right to secede from the U.S
Are you confusing the Constitution with the Articles of Confederation? Secession is nowhere mentioned in the Constitution, even obliquely. It's certainly not a legal right of any sort.
Lincoln believed that, had the CSA been allowed to be succesful, it would have doomed the United States Republic.
He was quite probably correct.
In point of fact, slavery was, most likely, on its way out, as it was.
Certainly through no fault of the Southern planter class and political leadership, who were doing their damnedest not only to keep slavery alive, but to expand it into the West.
It's nice that you cite a completely fictional movie scene as proof of, I dunno, Christian charity towards blacks or something. Really throws your whole argument into proper perspective.
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The idea behind the Constitution was to state expressly the limited rights that a central (federal) government possessed. Anything other than that was left to the states. As I expressed in another post it was implied (and Lincoln believed) that once you joined the Union you didn't have a right to leave. Many Southerners slaveholders or not did in fact saw Lincoln's call to preserve the Union by force as an infringement of a right they believed they possessed. That being said I don't think any responsible argument can be made that slavery was not a central issue. One of the rights that Southern states was the right of each state to govern itself more independently; including deciding if they wished to be "slave" or "free".
Earlier posts spoke of less affluent people, on either side, not caring as deeply or having as great a stake in the war. That may be true. Their lives would likely be affected less either way. That's one of the reasons that gave rise to the phrase "rich man's war; poor man's fight".
True, the Constitution exists to limit federal power, but to extend this to a right of secession is absurd. The Constitution clearly views the United States as a single, unified government, not a collection of states. Interpreting the 10th Amendment as an invitation to secession - that the rights left to the states include unilaterally dissolving the Union - is really, really stretching it.
I wouldn't have a problem if Southerners claimed they had a "natural right" to rebel against what they perceived as tyrannical government. Well, I would, but I could at least understand that argument. This obsession with framing Southern secession as "legal" strikes me as ridiculous.
Well then how about we take a couple lines from the Declaration of Independence.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
1. The Declaration of Independence is not the Constitution.
2. Notice the use of the term "people" rather than "states" or "colonies." A majority of people in the minority of states voted to dissolve the Union - most weren't consulted.
"That's what the elves call Justice of the Unicorn!"
1 reply. Agreed. However, the quote from the Declaration is exactly the "natural right" to secede that you spoke of in an earlier post. Clearly you don't agree that this was a right; but it was perceived as such by 11 states in 1861.
2 reply. The word people is used rather liberally to refer to the inhabitants of the states/colonies.
Again, there's a difference between a "natural" right and a legal right. The Founding Fathers, with a few exceptions, recognized they were committing some form of treason in rebelling against England. However, they felt they were right to do so given George's policies towards the colonies. I could understand, up to a point, if the Confederates took that track re: the Federal government in 1860.
However, the Confederates insisted (as do their apologists today) that secession was not only a "natural" right, but legal under the Constitution. Which is a dubious claim unless you have a really liberal interpretation of the 10th Amendment. They don't play the "North was a tyrant" card to the extent that they admit their actions were outside the law, and that they were justified in disobeying the Federal government - perhaps because they realize how shaky of ground that argument stands on.
"That's what he elves call Justice of the Unicorn!"
Just an argumentative question here. I see that the Union government was willing to justify western Virginia's secession from the state of Virginia and form its own state and government a few years later. So would they have accepted it if southern Illinois and Indiana, both of whom sent thousands of soldiers to fight for the Confederacy and both of whom early on supported the right of secession in the southern states been allowed to secede? Or would Illinois south of Cook County (Chicago) today be allowed to secede because it's sick of the unconstitutional and corrupt (state) government located in Chicago rather than in Springfield (as mandated)? This issue has honestly come up many times in the past 30 years.