To me, the exact circumstances of Ace's death are almost irrelevant to the impact of the scene. What gets to me is that Ace is going to die so young, knows she's about to die, and is so calm about it. And yet, near the end, there's that moment of fear and vulnerability. She's accepted her death, but she doesn't want to face it alone. And so her last words to Batman are, "Will you stay with me?" The line delivery by the actress is so perfect, it makes me tear up every time.
As for Batman, what makes that sad for me is that with all his training, knowledge, and resources he's utterly powerless. He's saved countless others, but he can do nothing to save Ace. So he sits there silently and holds her hand because that's the only thing he can do.
Even though the feared psychic backlash didn't happen, I don't think there's anything "painless" about Ace's death.
All excellent points.
I am stuck with: I really don't know WHY exactly it doesn't impact me more. The examples I gave are some possiblilities, but it may just be me...and I definitely see how you can be touched by it. There are good elements.
As a side note...the animation is excellent. I guess there wasn't a lot of action in this episode so the action scene seem to be very well done. For example the way they animated Shayera juking from side to side as she deflected Jack's throwing stars, Ten's hair movement, Ace's "illusions", the shadowing/lighting change on Shayera's and Bruces faces, the way STargirl smoothly punches the bramble barrier, the way Shayera props herself up to see over the barrier.
Anyhow, not to beat a dead horse, but maybe it is Ace's relative calmness that is another reason. If I were going to change it I would have had her agonize over her impending death more. I mean I relate it to Grundy's euthanization in Wake the Dead from the JL season before...which incidentally I don't think quite got to me either. Grundy wasn't really Grundy...just "chaos magic" inside his body. It almost literally
IS like killing a zombie. No humanity there. Now if the zombie body used to be the body of a friend of yours...yeah that makes it tough to blow it's head off, but still it's also much better than the alternative. And so it is a relief...especially if you equate the continued "existence" to suffering. In fact what actually made me misty was seeing Shayera bowing her head at the grave site in
The Terror Beyond...and it cuts to his headstone, "Solomon Grundy. Born on a Monday..."
Okay, Okay...I admit it I am on another tangent. But it is related to the thread, because that is
yet another moment that where this dang series got to me. It just catches you off guard.
Anyhow...I am not sure I am going down the right path on this, but
a. Ace's acceptance that her death is actually for the best (I guess she has come to that conclusion) so she's not struggling with it a whole lot. Obviously she's scared...but the scene does NOT give me enough time to BE that little girl. If she talked about all the things she would do/wanted to do. Or if she begged for her life, saying that she would try try try to control it...I don't know. Believe me...I WANT to feel for Ace, really I do...but in the end, if I put myself in Bats position it's like, "Man, I hope she goes down withOUT a bang." so my focus would be on that. AS a viewer I know that , Batman knows, somehow, that she IS going to go down smoothly. It's sad, but it's kind of anti-climatic. Almost routine Bat-perfection.
b. the fact that Batman is getting off kind of easy...I mean he doesn't have to actually kill a "friend". Watching her die may not be fun, but given the real world alternative of having to fight to kill a little girl...again anti-climatic.
c. We watched the same thing, almost, last season
...maybe all that lessens the impact on me. Again...I am not sure. Am I making any sense? Did Shayera wacking Grundy do anything for you?
I see your point. If say, J'onn J'onzz, had delivered Flash's line "I'm trying to speak for Superman", it could have been more effective. But, J'onn got to deliver Superman's eulogy, so it was nice that another character got this scene. And I thought it was effective that the creators didn't go with the obvious choice (J'onn). To have Flash deliver the line, when he's normally the goof-off, says something about how deeply Superman's "death" affected him.
Yeah...I am almost certain that you have captured the writers intentions there. ...and the point is made, but, obviously, you lose gravitas with Flash which would have led to tears or something
I prefer the understated approach of the episode, with this exchange:
Toyman: What are you going to do to me?
Wonder Woman: I'm going to punch a hole in your head.
With the look on her face, and the tone in her voice, it's just like she's saying "I'm going to kill you motherf#(%er!" IMO, using that line, unbleeped and in that tone of voice, would be the only thing that would have been more effective than the scene as aired.
Ha! I like it. yeah...if they had let Diana cuss at that moment it definitely would have upped the ante.
I remember the first time I watched it. I was thinking, 'oh snap. here it comes!' ...and I knew if she did it it would be ugly...perhaps unshowable...but nonlethal, as Toyman's history proves. But we get left with with Flash, of all people, sermonizing, instead of getting the violence that WOULD BE APPROPRIATE, so, again, it's kind of anticlimactic. The way they did it was sad, but Diana losing control would have been sadder.
I just thought of what is probably another good reason.
e. You kind of have to know that Superman won't really be dead.
On November 6, 2012...God blessed America
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alpha128
11 years ago
Even though the feared psychic backlash didn't happen, I don't think there's anything "painless" about Ace's death. - alpha128 (me)
All excellent points.
I really don't know WHY exactly it doesn't impact me more. It may just be me...and I definitely see how you can be touched by it. There are good elements.
I relate it to Grundy's euthanization in Wake the Dead from the JL season before...which incidentally I don't think quite got to me either.
Anyhow...I am not sure I am going down the right path on this, but
b. the fact that Batman is getting off kind of easy...I mean he doesn't have to actually kill a "friend". Watching her die may not be fun, but given the real world alternative of having to fight to kill a little girl...again anti-climactic.
c. We watched the same thing, almost, last season ...maybe all that lessens the impact on me. Again...I am not sure. Am I making any sense? Did Shayera wacking Grundy do anything for you? - iroquoisjoe
I do not compare Ace's death to Grundy's euthanasia (more on that in a minute).
You write about the "real world alternative of having to kill a little girl" and that "Batman gets off easy". In the real world little girls die every day. Try asking their parents if they "got off easy" because they didn't actually have to kill their child. Batman does
not get off easy. There's been speculation that Bruce's future dog Ace was named after the child he couldn't save. I know there was already an Ace the Bathound in the comics, but I like to believe that there is a connection between the two in the DCAU.
"Did Shayera wacking Grundy do anything for you?" No, it did nothing for me. I felt
no sympathy at all for Grundy and found the episode(s) dealing with his death forgettable. Grundy is the Bizarro of Justice League, only without Bizarro's inherent nobility. I was able to feel sympathy for Bizarro at the end of the S:TAS episode "Identity Crisis"; because even though his brain was damaged, his heart was in the right place. It might also have helped that we got to see Bizarro as "Superman" before the flaws in the cloning process became evident. But early in the JL series, Grundy is just big, strong, and dumb. His lack of intelligence is used for comedy purposes and he is never portrayed as sympathetic. I guess they tried to change that in the episode you mentioned, but I barely remember it. About all I can remember is that Grundy called Hawkgirl "Birdnose".
With the look on her face, and the tone in her voice, it's just like she's saying "I'm going to kill you motherf#(%er!" IMO, using that line, unbleeped and in that tone of voice, would be the only thing that would have been more effective than the scene as aired. - alpha128 (me)
Ha! I like it. yeah...if they had let Diana cuss at that moment it definitely would have upped the ante.
I remember the first time I watched it. I knew if she did it would be ugly...perhaps unshowable...but nonlethal, as Toyman's history proves. But we get left with Flash, of all people, sermonizing, instead of getting the violence that WOULD BE APPROPRIATE, so, again, it's kind of anticlimactic. The way they did it was sad, but Diana losing control would have been sadder. - iroquoisjoe
Agreed. Unfortunately the creators of Justice League had play to an "all ages" audience. Although they did do a lot of "adult content", they also had to create episodes knowing that there were children watching. In this case, they had to quite literally pull their punches. It's a shame that they didn't do what they do on "The Venture Bros." and release uncensored versions of the episodes on DVD.
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iroquoisjoe
11 years ago
You write about the "real world alternative of having to kill a little girl" and that "Batman gets off easy". In the real world little girls die every day. Try asking their parents if they "got off easy" because they didn't actually have to kill their child. Batman does not get off easy. There's been speculation that Bruce's future dog Ace was named after the child he couldn't save. I know there was already an Ace the Bathound in the comics, but I like to believe that there is a connection between the two in the DCAU.
yeah...but you can't really be thinking I don't sympathize with parents of little girls who are dying in their arms...do you? I am saying that, in comparison to Shayera's task with Grundy, it
is easier. Not easy...just easier. To use the Ol' Yeller analogy, it would be terrible to watch your dog die...it's infinitely worse to be the one to put a bullet in his head.
And, so, after having viewed the 'gonna have to reluctantly kill a "bad" guy' set-up just the previous season, and given that even that scene didn't really bring me to tears, and given that in the end they cop out and don't actually have him do it...it might be a reason it hits me kind of flat. ...well, flatter than it was probably intended to.
There's been speculation that Bruce's future dog Ace was named after the child he couldn't save.
Yeah, that's what I thought too.
No, it did nothing for me. I felt no sympathy at all for Grundy and found the episode(s) dealing with his death forgettable.
Yeah...Grundy wasn't all that sympathetic a character even when he was on his last legs. I did, however, find the whole episode excellent and very UNforgettable. It worked for me from beginning to end. It may not have been so sad for me...it was great seeing Hawkgirl/Shayera back in action...but the drama and dilemma of the situation was compelling.
It occurs to me...maybe it is the same thing with Grundy. In the end he actually doesn't fight it and pretty much seems to WANT to be put out of his misery. Putting him down (or even being ABLE to put him down) seems more a relief than a burden.
On November 6, 2012...God blessed America
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alpha128
11 years ago
You write that "Batman gets off easy". In the real world little girls die every day. Try asking their parents if they "got off easy" because they didn't actually have to kill their child. - alpha128 (me)
yeah...but you can't really be thinking I don't sympathize with parents of little girls who are dying in their arms...do you? - iroquoisjoe
Not really. But you could have been clearer in your original post.
And, so, after having viewed the 'gonna have to reluctantly kill a "bad" guy' set-up just the previous season, and given that even that scene didn't really bring me to tears, and given that in the end they cop out and don't actually have him do it...it might be a reason it hits me kind of flat. ...well, flatter than it was probably intended to. - iroquoisjoe
I'm detecting a pattern here. It occurs to me that the creators of Justice League played with the tropes of the superhero cartoon, without complete success.
The Ace scene is set up to be "take Ace down any way you can" and turns into a quiet scene where a scared little girl is comforted by the hero until her time comes. I was moved, you were not.
Grundy is a gangster turned zombie super villain, and the creators write an episode where the heroine mourns his passing. You found it unforgettable, I found it the opposite.
Another example I can think of "Flash and Substance" -
http://dcanimated.wikia.com/wiki/Flash_and_Substance. That episode includes a neighborhood bar that just happens to be a hangout for supervillains, and The Trickster is portrayed as a basically decent guy who is off his meds. I enjoyed "Flash and Substance" despite the offbeat nature of the episode. What did you think of it?
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iroquoisjoe
11 years ago
Not really. But you could have been clearer in your original post.
The Ace scene is set up to be "take Ace down any way you can" and turns into a quiet scene where a scared little girl is comforted by the hero until her time comes. I was moved, you were not.
Well....just for the record: I was moved, I just wasn't moved to tears. ...and I mean I really really really wish it could have gotten to me in that way.
In my mind i keep on coming up with endless ways they could have made it sadder, but I guess that's not important.
If you take the scene in For the Man Who Has Everything. Now, I am not the biggest batfan in the world. ...and when you get to the part where Bruces father is winning the fight. I am thinking, "hold on. That's not right. I know how this ends....right?" And yet, it brilliantly wraps you in. You already know this has to end bad...but by the time it all starts to go exactly the way it HAS TO END, they totally have me. I am torn apart just like young Master Bruce is. Nobody should have to watch the horror of not only reliving that memory, but starting out having it end good and then have the whole horrible ending happen again....and no way to stop it.
THAT is the way bring out some waterworks.
Grundy is a gangster turned zombie super villain, and the creators write an episode where the heroine mourns his passing. You found it unforgettable, I found it the opposite.
If you are talking about Wake the Dead...and not The Terror Beyond...the episode is about so much more than that....right? NO doutbt the Shayera/Grundy relationship was an important theme, but just a part of all that is going on in the story. Not quite perfect episode, but still quite awesome/memorable.
Another example I can think of "Flash and Substance"
This episode has grown on me. Definitely not quite a fave, but something about Flash's nutty villains makes me see it as a good "humor" episode. It's no longer an episode I only watch/show only as a last resort. Yeah, I kinda liked the concept of some supervillains just being "misunderstood"
On November 6, 2012...God blessed America
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alpha128
11 years ago
The Ace scene is set up to be "take Ace down any way you can" and turns into a quiet scene where a scared little girl is comforted by the hero until her time comes. I was moved, you were not. - alpha128 (me)
I was moved, I just wasn't moved to tears. ...and I mean I really really really wish it could have gotten to me in that way. - iroquoisjoe
I stand corrected - you were not moved as much as I was.
Grundy is a gangster turned zombie super villain, and the creators write an episode where the heroine mourns his passing. You found it unforgettable, I found it the opposite. - alpha128 (me)
If you are talking about Wake the Dead...and not The Terror Beyond...the episode is about so much more than that....right? NO doubt the Shayera/Grundy relationship was an important theme, but just a part of all that is going on in the story. Not quite perfect episode, but still quite awesome/memorable. - iroquoisjoe
That's my point. There were
two episodes dealing with the Shayera/Grundy relationship. You found them "awesome/memorable". I can barely remember them. All I remember from them is Grundy called Hawkgirl "Birdnose", and at one point Hawkgirl says to Grundy, "It's me, Birdnose".
Another example (of playing with the format) is "Flash and Substance" - alpha128 (me)
This episode has grown on me. Definitely not quite a fave, but something about Flash's nutty villains makes me see it as a good "humor" episode. It's no longer an episode I only watch/show only as a last resort. Yeah, I kinda liked the concept of some supervillains just being "misunderstood" - iroquoisjoe
Here we're pretty much in agreement. "Flash and Substance" is not one of my favorites either, but it's a fun romp.
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