Forgive us Hrant!


You've always been a brave, honest and intelligent son of this land. You loved it and died for it's democracy. Despite all evil you've had to face during your short life you have not left it and chosen this country as the home for your grandchildren. You should know that you have done much more for Turkey than the ultra-nationalist mob who have been against you and your rights have ever done.

God damn whoever have killed you! God damn the bloody internal or external forces behind him! God damn whoever prefers an isolated, non democratic, backward Turkey, who ever opposes any kind dialog and empathy between Turkish and Armenian nations! God damn whoever expects any benefit from that endless hatred!

Forgive me Hrant! Forgive OUR nation! Forgive Turks who understand you and respect your feelings! Forgive us who are respecting you and your rights!

I am ashamed to death! We are all guilty...First we were not able to protect your right of speech and finally we even failed in protecting your right of living. You know, as it has always bee: If we can not protect the first we can rarely secre the second.

Forgive us....Even if we do not deserve any piece of it...

I'm responsible for your murder Hrant! I'm your killer.

Rest in brotherhood and peace!

You should have seen that scene: Thousands in Istanbul's great Taksim Square are chanting now "We are all Armenians today!"

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As another Turk i couldn't agree more to ersoy.

i am deeply sorry that bullet was shot to humanity. to our heart.

we could'nt protect you.

God bless your soul.

i am deeply sorry.

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Terribly, terribly sad....

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Ersoy, do you have any links to video reports on this matter?

I'd appreciate it. Thanks. :)

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Try that link Varl...It is Turkish. Click on flashing red word "görüntüleri":

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2007/01/19/index.html

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Thanks, Ersoy.

I took a look at that site. It appears that they have a possible lead, based on one of the videos that had a "young man" running along the sidewalk; but, clearly, it's up to the investigators to determine if there is anything significant there. In the end, it just may be a guy who was running (for whatever reason he might have had).

I, also, took a look at NTVMSNBC and found a few videos there. I tried CNN in English as well, but I couldn't find any videos.

I'm a staunch supporter of free speech, even if that speech contains the ugliest words in the world; but to kill someone over mere words, we all -- every single person -- must take a stand against it. This is a terrible tragedy for every freedom-loving person. It's a crime that affects every progressive mind (Turk, Armenian, etc.), so I truly hope that Prime Minister Erdogan comes through on this one and the authorities locate the perpetrator.

I'll continue to search.

Thanks, again. :)

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Ersoy you have any links for Turkish video coverage on it? I speak and understand it so it doesn't have to be direct.

I pretend to work because the Soviet government pretends to pay me.

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UberZoldat,

The link that Ersoy posted (just above my previous post) contains video coverage.

I hope that helps. :)

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[deleted]

I've watched all the vids but I'm looking for much longer coverage since they are only 20 seconds to two minutes long.

I pretend to work because the Soviet government pretends to pay me.

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More video links:

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/5808478.asp

http://www.haberturk.com/2007/01/20/

that one contains links to several channels; choose video haberler link:

http://www.tvrehberim.com/





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More Video:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6281545.stm

http://video.haberturk.com/

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that one contains links to several channels; choose video haberler link:

http://www.tvrehberim.com/

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when will this end? when will inoccent people stop being killed?
shall we ever reach an agreement that will probably save so many souls

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"when will this end?"

Only in the End , I presume . It's terribly sad to witness one more killing - but to tell the truth , the violence was lurking there . A wolf cannot be forced to eat grass . Look at France and Germany - reconciliation seems to be a western word .


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Ersoy,

If I remember correctly, according to reports that I'd read, a judge was murdered by an "ultranationalist" last year. I can't recall the specifics. But I'm wondering what you've heard or read about it. Did they ever find the killer (s)? If so, was/were the killer/killers part of an organization?

I'm just curious. Thanks for any information in that regard. :)

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Yes he was a member of supreme court. Here is the story:

"Mustafa Yücel Özbilgin (1942 - 2006) was a Turkish supreme court magistrate, who was shot dead in the nation's supreme courtroom in Ankara, Turkey on 17 May 2006 by Alparslan Arslan.[1]

The alleged reasoning for the murder of Mustafa Yücel Özbilgin and wounding of four of his fellow judges was that they had previously voted against a Turkish school teacher being allowed to wear a traditional Islamic headscarf outside work.[2] One of the judges who was shot, voted in favour of allowing the teacher to wear a headscarf outside of work, while the other judges who were wounded, voted against.[1]

According to local news reports, the judges were in the midst of a daily meeting in the capital, when the gunman, who was later identified as a lawyer, burst into the room and fired his weapon. Mustafa Yücel Özbilgin suffered a gunshot wound to the head and was pronounced dead later that day in a hospital in Ankara. Police captured the gunman as he tried to escape. According to witnesses, the lawyer shouted, "Allahu Akbar (God is the greatest). His anger will be upon you!"[1]

His death has led to demonstrations in Turkey of support for secularism. The President Ahmet Necdet Sezer was applauded as he attended the funeral and warned that "no-one will be able to overthrow the [secular] regime".[3] The Turkish press has widely condemned the attacks.[4]

The shooting represents a rise in tensions between the fundamentalist secular apparatus of state and supporters of religious rights, as well as Islamic fundamentalism.)

For more go to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Y%C3%BCcel_%C3%96zbilgin

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Thanks for the report, Ersoy. I'm glad to know that the perpetrator (in the murder of the judge and the wounding of four of his fellow judges) was captured. When you consider the perpetrator's motive for the killing, it's beyond comprehension. Turkey must fight those who seek to prevent it from moving foward until those people are no more; it is in the BEST interest of Turkey and its neighbors.


Here is the latest that I've found on the Dink case:

Suspect in Turkish editor's death held

By BENJAMIN HARVEY, Associated Press Writer
38 minutes ago

ISTANBUL, Turkey - Police detained a teenager suspected in the slaying of an ethnic Armenian journalist, acting on a tip from the boy's father after his pictures were broadcast on Turkish television, Istanbul's governor said Saturday.

Ogun Samast, who is 16 or 17 years old, was caught on a bus in the Black Sea city of Samsun, Gov. Muammer Guler said. He was apparently on his way from Istanbul back to his home town of Trabzon, the governor said.

Hrant Dink, the 52-year-old editor of the Turkish-Armenian newspaper Agos, was gunned down outside his newspaper's office in Istanbul on Friday.

Most Turks assume Dink was targeted for his columns saying the killing of ethnic Armenians by Turks in the early 20th century was genocide. Nationalists consider such statements an insult to Turkey's honor and a threat to its unity, and Dink had been showered with insults and threats.

Guler said Samast was arrested in an operation coordinated by police and security officials at the Samsun bus station. Video footage showed paramilitary police at the station inspecting a pistol and then placing it into an evidence bag.

Guler said Samast's father had turned him in.

Samast's photograph was caught by a security camera about two blocks from the scene of the crime in Istanbul and was broadcast live on television stations across Turkey on Saturday.

Guler said earlier that Dink's secretary had identified the young man in the photograph as the same person who had requested a meeting with Dink the day he was killed, the Anatolia news agency reported. The man said he was a student at Ankara University, Guler said.

The request was refused, and the secretary said she saw him waiting in front of a bank about an hour before Dink was killed, Anatolia reported.

Guler said Samast was born in 1990, but he didn't release his exact age. He said the teen was being brought back to Istanbul for questioning along with six other suspects from Trabzon.

Police were investigating whether the teen acted alone or had ties to a group.

Threats and violence against Turkish editors and reporters is not uncommon, and well-known journalists commonly receive police protection and can be seen traveling around Istanbul with bodyguards. Dink was alone when he was killed.

Guler rejected accusations that the government did not do enough to protect Dink.

"Because he didn't request protection, he didn't get close protection," he said Saturday. "Only general security precautions were taken."

Meanwhile, mourners held a vigil at the spot where Dink was gunned down Friday. Many in the crowd, which included Turks and members of Istanbul's small Armenian community, had pictures of the slain journalist pinned to their chests.

"We're here to pay our respects," said Sabri Nas, 47, an Armenian-Turk. "We are against this violence, whatever the motivation."

Turkey's relationship with its Armenian minority has long been haunted by a bloody past. Much of its once-influential Armenian population was killed or driven out beginning around 1915 in what an increasing number of nations are calling the first genocide of the 20th century.

Turkey acknowledges that large numbers of Armenians died but vehemently denies it was genocide, saying the overall figure is inflated and the deaths occurred in the civil unrest during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070120/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_journalist_killed

There are additional reports at the bottom of its page.

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Ahh he was a great man. He came to our Armenian school in Melbourne twice. I had the honour of meeting him. He truly is a sad loss, not only to Armenians, but to free speech and journalism everywhere.

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He was the voice of common sense.A very nice person...I feel like my brother was killed...I have never felt so sad since 1999 Marmara Earthquake. He has been under attack by receiving threads from all kinds of racists (Both Turkish and Armenians).

Murder "suspect" is again from Trabzon, a city in Black Sea coast. It is an extremely conservative and religious area. It is the same city where a catholic priest was killed last year. Furthermore, one of the murderer's friends was found guilty for bombing a McDonald's restaurant in Trabzon 2 years ago. Looks like they are acting as a gang or something...But important point is to find out the of forces are behind those children? Why Turkish state (although Hrant have been refusing to be protected) failed in protecting Hrant? In fact that "Insulting Turkishness" event made him a target for fanatics. Therefore real killers should be considered as the ones who have been responsible for penal code 301 insanity.

Yesterday in several cities in Turkey pro-democratic people made spontaneous protests, rallies against Hrant's murder. Popular slogan was "We are all Hrants, we are all Armenians". Last night right after his murder more than 10000 people made a rally from Taksim Square to his newspaper office. All spontaneously!

His funeral will be on Tuesday, starting from his newspaper to Mother Mary Church in Kumkapi (Little Armenia of Istanbul as I name it!). I'm expecting a great funeral rally with support from several NGO's and all pro-democratic forces.) There will be only one (Already chosen) slogan for the funeral :"WE ARE ALL HRANTS WE ARE ALL ARMENIANS" again. Family says he did no want anything political during his funeral.Therfore ther may be some limitations. People will try to keep silent....

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[deleted]

"We are all Hrants, we are all Armenians"

It depends on how you understand it.
The protesters are probably of armenian decent.

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[deleted]

We (the Turkish people) are all guilty of this crime. It is our crime and it proves that nationalist Turks are ready to attempt heinous crimes in order to "defend" Turkishness. This murder is not the attack of an ignoramus teenager, it is not the work of foreign circles, it is not the work of "button pushers." The trigger was pulled by the bloody hands of Turkish nationalists, but the real fault is rooted within the 100 years old politics of Turkey that upholds the nationalists and opresses the left, democracy and freedom of speech. It is firstly the crime of bloody nationalists and secondly the fault of whole nation.

Some (hopefully most) of the Turkish people curse this hateful murder. Unfortunately, some are glad deep down inside and even worse, some do not care. They must be forced to care.

It is not the time to keep calm and repeat the calls of brotherhood and peace. It is time to go out on the streets and protest and think. It is time for introspection. It is time to find a way to change the status quo.

I hope Dink's untimely and horrifying death was not in vain. Our loss is great and the best thing we can hope for is for him to turn into a spark that will ignite the flames of change.

That change can begin by the annulment of 301. The goverment must not be afraid to lose the bloody votes of nationalists and repeal this undemocratic law at once. We owe it to Hrant dink.




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tilki: I hope Dink's untimely and horrifying death was not in vain. Our loss is great and the best thing we can hope for for him to turn in to a spark that will ignite the flames of change.
Very well said. I couldn't agree more.

Based on the video coverage that I've seen in these last couple of days -- the large numbers of protesters (Turk, Armenian -- and others, I'm sure) all over Turkey, condemning the brutal crime against Mr. Dink -- it just may be that change is coming.

Can you imagine a climate where Turks and Armenians can travel across borders freely, without the slightest of care? Can you imagine the same in the ME? Or the end of the bloody campaign in Darfur? I can be hopeful, can't I?

That's the only way to live.

Think well of each other. Peace. :)

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"We are all Hrants, we are all Armenians"

It depends on how you understand it.
The protesters are probably of armenian decent. "



Is this a joke or are you serious? In both cases you are not even funny...

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Mak:
"Oh really ersoy? Do you have any info of Armenian "racists" who attacked Dink? "

Dink was against French genocide bill and named it as an "Idiocy". Because of his moderate position, he was blamed by some Armenians (I call them racists)as "being a Turk". For example the incidents during the ceremony of PEN award in Heinrich Böll Institute, last year. They shouted at him and called him as a "Turk"....

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I think there's enough on all of our plates than to add conspiracy theories. Turkey is a very complex country and if you start looking for conspiracy theories you'd be able to find one under every stone in the country.
We must all focus on the matter on hand. As tilki and VarlOatesIII put it, I hope that we can all really learn that we are long over due for change from this.
Turkey has to remove 301 from their laws. They must begin to practice actual freedom of speech. Books shouldnt be banned. Politicians shouldnt be heard calling people or efforts for an ethnic cause names.
Everybody in Turkey, who is involved in Turkey, must work to keep the mosaic in one piece. We've received another bullet right in the middle of it. But Im hoping that there are other Hrants in the country to keep working the mold to maintain the mosaic.
We all need to understand the difference between resolving the issue of genocide and planting and feeding hatred against Turks and Turkish citizens.

Our country, our nation is in pain. We've lost one of the best journalists in the country. It's time for all of us to speak up, and dont stop until the darn government acts to change!

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Dink funeral video by Reuters:

http://today.reuters.co.uk/tv/videoStory.aspx?isSummitStory=False&storyId=6f283df2c2a03b83a035312fa45c5e40e5e12e74&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-R3-RelatedNews-1

Funeral participants have formed a rally which was estimated to be longer than 8 kilometers.The crowd was divided into several smaller parts, some around church another around Armenian Cemetary and Agos newspaper office in Taksim and some in between; therefore it is hard to make a correct estimation for the total participation but I believe it was around 75-80 000!

News channels CNN and NTV have given the funeral live from the beginning to the end, about 3 hours.Representatives of ROA and members of Armenian diaspora (especially some of French origine) are on Turkish TV's now. They say they have been surprised by the reaction of Turkish people about Dink asssasination.



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Thanks for that, Ersoy. I'm sure that the funeral touched the hearts and minds of many.

Here are more video clips (from NTVMSNBC):

http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/modules/habervideo/video.asp?CatID=0&VideoSearch=&NewsType=

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From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrant_Dink

Scroll down to the Funeral section for a panoramic photo, which says a lot about how important it is for everyone to unite towards a bright future together.

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[deleted]

Newspaper Hürriyet's aerial photo based estimation for funeral participation:

>200 000 people!!!!

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>200 000 people!!!!
That's massive. More powerful than words.

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I believe this is a great opportunity for a fresh start of dialog between our nations.Obviously Turkish side is tired of empty official messages. Instead, they send their own. They send their cordial message. As Hrant has told before, "Let people, men on the street solve the problem using street politics, even if the goverments fail to solve it". Obviously they are more effective. A week ago, I would never believe that I would ever ever see 200 000 people walking on Istanbul streets with placards of "We are all Armenians"!

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[deleted]

Mak Returns The Hate-Monger says:

There should be dialogue between Turkey and Armenia...and once Turkey finally decides to show all their REAL documents where they sent orders to murder all Armenians in a cold blooded Genocide in 1915 caused by the Young Turks and the massacre of 1.5 Million Armenians and many other Greeks, Kurds, and Assyrians, we can all be peaceful again after proper land is returned as well as proper reparations.


Hello there, hateful nationalist. I have some messages for you, from your bloody handed Turkish ultra-nationalist buddies in Turkey. But first this:

This is a newspaper report taken from largest selling newspaper of Turkey (which I think is crap):

24 January 2007 - http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/dunya/5832009.asp?m=1&gid=112&srid=3431&oid=5

Armenia calls for establishing diplomatic relations with Turkey
without any preconditions, Deputy Foreign Minister Arman Kirakosyan
said. etc... etc...

And now for something completely different:
Here are some of the Turkish ultra nationalist comments written under the news page, handpicked by me for people like MakReturns. There are many others full of hope and peaceful wishes, but I think MakReturns will enjoy these better, this is what he'd rather hear:


"You will withdraw from the Azerbaijan lands you occupy first, only then we will consider your summons."

"Withdraw from Karabakh at once. Surrender the Armenians who massacred the people of Azerbaijan. What preconditions could you bring forward anyway?"

"If they want to establish diplomatic relations with us, they firstly should tell their diaspora trifles to give up their claims of this alleged genocide propoganda, all over the world."

"Do not listen to them, this is a new trap. We don't need them."

"Dink was a Turkish citizen of Armenian background. What's it to do with Armenia anyways?"

"Keep our doors closed, they can open theirs as wide as they want."


Now, these are the same kind of people as MakReturns. How are these comments helping anything? What could come out of the stupid preconditions that Turkish and Armenian nationalists advocate? Why don't you haters shut up already and let peace find it's way?

The border between Armenia and Turkey must be opened at once, without any conditions. Let people come together, live together and hate-mongers will be silenced in time. In spite of goverments, in spite of politics and hundered years old hatred that is kept alive by bloody handed nationalists on both sides, we are all Armenians and they are us.

Live for a world without borders and governments. Because they will all fail in the end.

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[deleted]

More violence , more threats .

http://www.yahoo.com/s/256156/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070128/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_ferry

"ANKARA, Turkey - Police detained a man who threatened to blow up a ferry in protest of pro-Armenian slogans chanted at a slain journalist's funeral"

Will it ever end ? When will the western patience towards Turkey run out ?

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I am sorry for what happened but as a Turk I refuse to be driven into a guilt trip in front of foreigners, especially Armenians who have a beef with my country for decades. That's what they've been trying to do for decades anyway, to drive us into a guilt trip all the while raising and maintaining anti-Turkish propaganda in the western world. These people are more organized and motivated on their objectives than you think.

Just think how much they felt sorry when Turkish diplomats were being assassinated by Armenian terrorists.

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

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Genghis:

Just think how much the Young Turks (Ottoman) felt sorry when Armenian women and children were being raped and murdered by Turkish militants.

The only thing that Turks have to do is stop denying history and face up to the horrors of their ancestors, just like Germany did. Once that happens, Armenians will be able to take the first steps towards reconciliation with the Turkish people.

If the truth is not accepted by Turkey, Armenians will never stop until they have closure. You can count on that.

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Are you the person who called Turks impure some years ago on this board? I can't remember, it has been too long since I last posted here.

The so-called Armenian Genocide needs serious revisioning. As my sig suggests I find truth 'complicated'.

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

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[deleted]

And you are?

I am not contradicting myself in any way. My opinions are quite the same as when I first came to this board except I used to have respect for Armenians.

I want to ask you something to which if you know the answer you won't be able to answer truthfully. Do you Armenians realize you are actually using textbook propaganda methods for promoting this agenda or does it come naturally and unintentionally?

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

I am sure it has some truth in it, some in the core of it, the rest was forged in time.

There is a reason why your people held on to this agenda for 93 years. Maybe more strongly after genocide entered legal terminology in 1948. Don't give me the "It is a humanitarian thing" bs please, that's an insult to my intelligence. This thing is like a religion to you man. Even the most liberal Armenian, when it comes to the so-called Armenian Genocide, turns into this bigoted hate machine. It is in what you eat, what you talk, what you drink. What's more unfortunate is you turned into these great enemies of ours. I am sorry but you people are sick in the head, I've seen enough of them right on this board.

Most of the Turks don't even know what you are talking. They are naive and ignorant about it and can't believe what they are hearing. Because they are ignorant and can't give a meaning to this animosity they will return your hatred with more hatred (see Hrant Dink). Yes, on a broader perspective you people are responsible for his death too because you so successfully built this "Armenians are enemies of Turks" image in years.

As for the textbook propagandha methods, you use many of them, such as

- Argumentum ad populum: Everybody (actually 20 something countries, most in the last years) is recognizing it and so should you Turks.
- Discredit the opposite side of the argument: Turks are liars. Turks are evil. Turks are brainwashed etc.
- Keep repeating what you are saying in every platform: ...during the Armenian Genocide...after the Armenian Genocide...before the Armenian Genocide etc.

Ok?

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

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[deleted]

I just found out about another method you are using.

"Reductio ad Hitlerum: The fallacy most often assumes the form of "Hitler (or the Nazis) supported X, therefore X must be evil/undesirable/bad"[2]. The argument carries emotional weight as rhetoric, since in many cultures anything to do with Hitler or Nazis is automatically condemned."


Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

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[deleted]