The End - The Last Castle (2001) Discussion

[–] wheeeelz-1 18 years ago

Are you that dumb the snipers could see the way he was holding it that he was going to put it up right and even if thats the case US Army ROE (rules of engagement) Say that in this situation you have to wait and see if he putting it up right or wrong.

And he put it up right because they proved there point they could have broken out AND he also did it so that gandolfinis charchter could not be warden anymore and the guys he met would not have to suffer

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[–] bikebryan 18 years ago

"They proved there point they could have broken out"?

The prisoners NEVER had the intent to break out. They were there for their crimes, they knew it and understood it. Their intent was merely to take over the prison, and hold it long enough for the cavalry to arrive. Upon their arrival, the Prison Commander would be clearly seen to be ineffective and would have been replaced, which is what the prisoners wanted - NOT to break out.

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[–] hinnman1 18 years ago

ROE? You don't shoot someone who is not a threat or unarmed unless there is a purpose. They saw no purpose, he wasn't running away, he wasn't carrying a weapon. He was just walking calmly and putting up a flag.

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[–] minerals 17 years ago

Right there when the General was putting that flag up correctly it made all the other guards see the evil of that warden when he pulled his gun out and shot the General in the back. That opened the eyes of all the guards to where they could understand why the General and others would do such a battle is because they were tired of people being killed and beat up for no reason. Plus by that warden being told to drop the gun and that he was under arrest for muder it showed how those other mens' eyes were opened to see how evil that man was and how he was telling lies to outside command about what he was really doing.

Personally the way that warden was killing people it made me so mad with how he was doing those others I was wishing i could have reached and broke his glasses so he could not see. That is how angry that Warden made me and I could see why the General would do such a battle agaist him.

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[–] sbcc-1 18 years ago

you guys suck at movies..they dont shoot to show the humanity of the prison gaurds. the gaurds realize the colonel is crazed at this point and that redford isnt going to do any harm. not to mentions the colonels second in command shaking his head at the snipers. he raises the flag rightside up because its the cliche thing to do in this type of movie the good guy always dies being good.

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[–] axel-50 18 years ago

The flag was suppoused to be upside down but they changed it since it would have been so controversial.

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[–] SpeedRacer2K 18 years ago

That was the movie poster, not the film.

-----
Looks like you forgot to take your anti-retard pills again.

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[–] archangel1313 12 years ago

It would have been better if it was not only upside-down, but also at half-mast...seeing as how he was shot while raising it.

Good men usually die hard...but they still die trying.

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[–] skinnypez 18 years ago

I could be nuts, but one reason the snipers don't shoot might be because if they do the flag will drop to the ground, which isn't supposed to happen (I say this because the camera zooms in on the flag while Irwin is walking with it...almost to remind us that he is holding it and if he is shot it will fall). But that would assume a huge amount of patriotism on the part of the chosen snipers...so maybe that's not it.

Irwin flies the flag correctly because he knows he doesn't have to fly it upside down to show that the warden has lost control. The exploded helicopter, demolished office, and dead guards are evidence enough.

And to the poster who replied first...You are a moron. I highly doubt that the Army Rules of Engagement have a section that deals specifically with the protocol involved when a prisoner may or may not fly a flag upside down...and even if they do, the snipers are under the obligation to follow their commanding officers interpretation of those rules. Also, before calling others dumb, you might want to consider spelling word correctly and using proper sentence structure.

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[–] ultrachronic 18 years ago

Also, before calling others dumb, you might want to consider spelling word correctly and using proper sentence structure.

I was just about to mention that.

I see someone else has that covered.

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[–] morgain_le_faye 18 years ago

Here is my interpretation. Note this IS an interpretation and other people may have different opinions.:

The Snipers did not shoot for probably two reasons. A. They were about to shoot a man who they all learned about in their training. This man was a legend... and people will hesitate to kill a legend. B. Shooting Irwin would desecrate the flag. It would touch the ground, it would get bloody, and it would get dirty.

I think the voice-over at the beginning and end explain why Irwin hung the flag up correctly. The voice-over states: "You tell them nobody takes our flag. And you raise that flag so it flies high where everyone can see it. Now you've got yourself a castle." Irwin plainly saw that the prisoners had the castle. As someone above me mentioned, burnt gaurd towers, a destroyed office, and a wrecked helicoptor are all good pieces of evidence that there was an uprising. Therefore, the prisoners took over the castle, took their flag, and flew it proudly.

Again, I stress that this is what I got out of the movie and that people may and probably did interpret it differently. Hope this helps.

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[–] Spartan10 18 years ago

US Army rules of engagement say that you have to wait, in that situation, to see if he's going to fly it upside down or not?????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, laughing uncontrollably at whoever posted that.

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[–] zalaskit 18 years ago

Please, you dont have to stress that this is your opinion.
I myself, see this exact thing. He flies the flag upright showing that they do have their castle. right as the quote " ... and now you have yourself a castle." is occuring, there is a aerial visual shot of the destroyed prison facility. A great way to end the movie. Good post. I think this is what they meant to convey when they wrote this.

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[–] mdmxq6 18 years ago

I'm surprised no one has said anything about this yet. The simple reason the flag shouldn't be flown upside down is because that would be the country is in distress...under no circumstance should the flag be flown upside down unless the United States of America is in a circumstance of extreme distress. The general knows this and out of patriotism (obviously along with his desire to be a hero to fellow soldiers/inmates) he makes sure the flag is hung appropriately in his dying moments.

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[–] Spartan10 18 years ago

It is a traditional "folktale" type story that if your "fort" or "position" is being overrun that flying the flag upside down will cause your soldiers to rally back and defend it.

It's not a tale of the ENTIRE USA being in distress.

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[–] morgain_le_faye 18 years ago

I only stressed it because I notice that when people post things as fact, others attack. I personally find that rude and annoying, so I figure the only way to safeguard against it is to say that this is one of what could be many interpretations. That's the beauty of movies and literature.

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[–] sarastro-1 18 years ago

I believe the info Yates gave to Col. Winters about flying the flag upside-down was intended as disinformation. This resulted in Col. Winters being more desperate to find his flag, and so he wrongly deployed the majority of his troops to search for it, leaving them unable to respond to the inmates' initial attack.

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[–] deejames 18 years ago

Some people have coveed it but to be clear...the snipers didn't shoot because they have some humanity about them and realized that actually killing a legend simply because he might fly a flag upside down is a little extreme. Also, they may have realized that the warden was out of control.

Also, Redford's character had no reason to fly the flag upside down because the castle wasn't in distress. He had successfully taken over the prison and there was no distress. He knew he didn't have to hang a flag upside down to prove his point. Not to mention, he was a true patriot and never forgot who he was. He was first and foremost a soldier and he believed more in that, than maybe proving his point in the prison.

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[–] tootubby 18 years ago

well, you guys can continue to argue your opinions, personally i believe what the one dude said earlier about "the good guy dies doing good" is best fit in this movie. and its safe to say redford did damn good in it too.

i myself always have to give him a salute when he's at the flagpole, and when yate's voice in the background repeating the stuff about the flag.

come on, its just proper :-p hahaha

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[–] vegarover 18 years ago

Why do at the end of the movie the Sniper (from the prison)not shoot?

I like the KISS method of explinaions (Keep It Simple Stupid), and I think the reason they didn't shoot was because he was unarmed and not a threat. Simple.

They weren't worried about they flag falling to the ground or anything stupid like that.

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[–] qotsa66 18 years ago

hahahah i like the stuff about the KISS method.

I was actually surprised that nobody had pointed out the obvious. They didnt shoot because at that point Irwin was no threat. All this talk about rules of engagement, not letting the flag touch the ground, its all B.S.

And he put the flag rightside up because he didnt need to put it upside down to prove his point. Also, its more patriotic and heartwarming for the movie to end like that. As a non-american, i can´t help to roll my eyes when seeing the US flag shown in such a way in a movie. but i think it was approppriate at the moment. Well, you can´t have a movie about soldiers without some patriotism.

All things considered, a good movie. :)

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[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] archangel1313 12 years ago

To vegarover...

Couldn't have said it better.
Nail, head, hammer...it's all covered.

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[–] Giwu 10 years ago

I don't know that I have anything new to add. I was in the Army and an MP, but never a prison guard.

First of all, had a sniper shot him, he would be court martialed. Winters as an officer would quietly be discharged, honorably and get his full retirement pay and all his benefits. The enlisted man following the orders would be fried - his life ruined.

Do we have evidence that anyone died in the riot? Even the final tower guard, he could have gotten out of the way.

So, no deaths in a prison riot, yet the prison is in total shambles. The prisoners eliminated every deterrent in place (and could have turned the water cannon back on the guards, held them off and raised the flag, but instead they went to formation. Irwin more tha demonstrated they could have escaped, they could have taken over the prison, taken hostages. Winter is removed from Command. Mission accomplished.

I also think telling him the flag was going to be flown upside down was misinformation. It was to get Winters motivated to call out the reaction squads. If Yates had said, "We have stolen your flag." There's just no guarantee that Winter would have reacted like he did and like they needed him to. He had a huge ego. But he knew things were shaky at best. He needed a strong reason to get that flag back.

All typos are hereby blamed on my iPad.

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[–] Steinbrenner 18 years ago

The goal of Irwin and the whole uprising was to get rid of Colonel Winters.

The downed helicopter, burning towers and dead prison guards was a more than adequate reason for General Wheeler to fire Winters. Gen. Wheeler has pull in Washington DC so I'm sure he'll stick up for his dead buddy Irwin, and seek to have Winters locked up in military prison for murder.

So that's why Irwin did what he did. Mission Accomplished...The flag flies high...God Bless America...etc etc

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[–] natuKo 18 years ago

The key word here, is BLUFF.

He bluffed Winters before, and he did it again.

Bluffing is generally thought of in relation to playing poker, not chess, but it does apply to the game of chess albeit ineffectively applied at times. Many opponents will attempt to place pieces in an open space on your side of the board with no real intent of sacrificing the piece.

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[–] thenewvintagehome 18 years ago

I agree with the comment about chess; I guess, like illustrations, metaphors can't possibly be 100% correct.

It is clear that Yates' mission was to secure the flag and to feed misinformation to Winters. The disruption from the other inmate made it possible for him to get the flag without anyone seeing (did you notice he came in to the office with a filled bag) and to lead Winters into thinking that the General had to be stopped before he could raise the flag upside down, something Redford's character never intended on doing. With the mad search for the flag, he accomplished holding the guards, and with the misinformation that it would be flown upside down, he guaranteed Winters would lose his cool and try to stop him from flying it, proving that he was unfit to run the Castle.

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[–] johncooper65 17 years ago

I totally agree with the above poster. There are several references to Irwin's chess playing abilities.

I am not a chess champ (rather far from it) but in the final moments before victory most of the time, the response from the opposing player is deterministic.

Irwin created the whole situation, knowing exactly what the colonel would do. He even explains it to Yates about the 3 acts.

And I am sure that all of you are aware that misinformation in war can be a great weapon as well, that is exactly what happened.

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[–] dfoley8 17 years ago

Another reason Wheeler would have a very easy time in getting Winters kicked out(and probably in jail himself)is of course the fact that Winters shot Irwin in cold blood in front of 1200 witnesses.

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