The angels told Dad that Fenton was a demon who would cause an innocent to die, therefore Dad sought to prevent this, therefore Dad disciplined Fenton and went too far, in the process the sherriff was killed as an innocent, therefore Fenton became f'ed up in the head, therefore Fenton grew up into serial killer, therefore Fenton was a demon.
Isn't this the very definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy?
What if he was a Demon before he was a serial killer?
Picture this... The angels told Dad that if they tried to tell anyone about what they were doing it would cause an innocent to die. The angels knew Fenton was a demon because he had no faith and would eventually betray them and attempt to stop the demons being killed. This is why they asked Dad to kill him. Dad did not kill him, Fenton betrayed them and caused the innocent sheriff to be killed. Dad still refused to kill Fenton but instead locked him away. Fenton was freed when he claimed he had seen God but he had not. Fenton then committed the ultimate betrayal and killed his own Dad before going on to become a serial killer. Becoming a serial killer was the direct result of his lack of faith because he witnessed his dad's actions but could not see the true purpose of his dad's work.
Only the closed mind is certain.
Hah. The poor kid had no reason in hell or anywhere else to believe his dad. Lack of faith making him a demon, my butt. I think the self-fulfilling prophecy is right-on.
shareYou don't need reason in order to have faith. Reason just gets in the way.
Only the closed mind is certain.
Only when it comes to treating God like a creature of Earth that can be analyzed. But when it comes to morals, God VERY MUCH expects us to use reason.
shareThe movie is flawed. When we see the other "demon" acts of evil, they are all depicted as corrupt individuals, callous, calculated. We had the benefit of seeing fenton before he became a demon. Whenever he saw an act of violence he was disgusted. He turned his head. He pleaded with his father not to murder. He tried to make the violence end. Those actions would be considered the moral thing to do with the evidence that the young Fenton had.
By not allowing him to see the visions, Fenton was reduced to repeat his father's actions even down to crossing the names off of the yellow legal paid after he's slain them. Fenton's father turned him into a psychopath because he was exposed to very violent images at a young age.
Are we to deduce that God would allow the corruption of a child? Or that GOd creates demons to be destroyed?
You've got all twisted dude.
Fenton was horrified and crying when he saw the DEMONS destroyed, but when the sheriff, the first ACTUALLY innocent person, is killed he sports a cold, distant gaze, like he didn't care and his face seeps into the darkness.
Now we don't know what went through Fenton's head in the entire movie, all we're hearing is Adam's calculated perception of Fenton's mind. In reality maybe Fenton was a demon and he knew it, and he cried everytime a DEMON was slayed and tried his best to prevent any demon from being killed.
Now whether or not human's are predisposed to be demons is left ambiguous
Fenton was horrified and crying when he saw the DEMONS destroyed, but when the sheriff, the first ACTUALLY innocent person, is killed he sports a cold, distant gaze, like he didn't care and his face seeps into the darkness.
Great point!
[deleted]
At this point, it is still open to interpretation. If Fenton was outed as a demon to his father before committing his future murders, it is entirely possible that he was always headed down the path of a mass murderer. Psychosis is not entirely based upon environment -- psychopaths can come from even stable homes. That is the entire reason why nature vs nurture is still discussed.
I definitely think that Fenton's incarceration in the basement expedited the process -- however, who is to say he wouldn't have gotten there on his own?
It's only self-fulfilling if locking him in the basement was the sole cause of his insanity. If Fenton was pointed out as a demon before ever committing a crime, you could make the case that he was always going to eventually become a monster.
We didn't get to see inside Fenton's head; all we had was Adam's guesses.
If Sandra Bullock can win an Oscar for 'The Blind Side' then ... ANYTHING ... is possible!
Who's to say if my dad doesn't become a serial rapist if he eats three Ben and Jerry's of assorted flavors on the night of the 28th of October?
utter ridiculousness
You've got all twisted dude.
Fenton was horrified and crying when he saw the DEMONS destroyed, but when the sheriff, the first ACTUALLY innocent person, is killed he sports a cold, distant gaze, like he didn't care and his face seeps into the darkness.
Now we don't know what went through Fenton's head in the entire movie, all we're hearing is Adam's calculated perception of Fenton's mind. In reality maybe Fenton was a demon and he knew it, and he cried everytime a DEMON was slayed and tried his best to prevent any demon from being killed.
Now whether or not human's are predisposed to be demons is left ambiguous.
Fenton was horrified and crying when he saw the DEMONS destroyed, but when the sheriff, the first ACTUALLY innocent person, is killed he sports a cold, distant gaze, like he didn't care and his face seeps into the darkness.
If Sandra Bullock can win an Oscar for 'The Blind Side' then ... ANYTHING ... is possible!
DEMON'S DON'T FREAKING EXIST.
Are we to deduce that God would allow the corruption of a child? Or that GOd creates demons to be destroyed?
Keep in mind that it was Adam, not Fenton, telling the story. Supposedly from Fenton's point of view, but it was not Fenton.
At the end it showed why the people killed were demons. It showed what they had done. For instants, that nice old man was a child killer. (When Dad said he was a baby killer, I had assumed he meant an abortion doctor, but he meant a serial killer of children.)
Keep in mind that it was Adam, not Fenton, telling the story. Supposedly from Fenton's point of view, but it was not Fenton.You are absolutely right.
If Sandra Bullock can win an Oscar for 'The Blind Side' then ... ANYTHING ... is possible!
It was not ambiguous. Adam killed Fenton.
Just because you don't believe in the father's cause, it does not automatically make you a demon. IMO it was the father who chose to believe that the visions he saw of people committing murders as demons. People commit murder all the time in history, sometimes they do it because they were psychos who get a thrill out of it, sometimes it's due to self defense or past trauma. We don't know why these people committed their heinous acts but we have an idea why Fenton did. Fenton is shown to be the good responsible son. He was never shown to be malicious or evil waiting to be a serial killer when he grows up. He ended up as such because of his childhood trauma concerning his father's abuse. Fenton was never a demon, he was a good kid who lost his way due to his father's mistreatment.
Global Warming, it's a personal decision innit? - Nigel Tufnel
Fenton said beofre killing his Dad that he (Fenton)was fulfilling his destiny; I think he also said he knew his destiney when he was let out of the cellar. His destiny was to kill his Dad. When Dad was beling buried he knew he would be marked as a demon and asked Adam to bury him in the Rose Garden when Adam destroyed him.
share[deleted]
Nature vs nurture. These two factors are strong forces that will determine a person's outcome. In both your examples, these 2 murderers may not have had been nurtured to kill but they were so by nature. A chemical imbalance, they were born to be socio/pyschopaths. Fenton was never shown to be either a sociopath or a psychopath, there would've been indications in childhood if he was so. He became a serial killer because of nurture, his father bred him to become one unknowingly. Do not underestimate the power of abuse and trauma, especially in young children.
Global Warming, it's a personal decision innit? - Nigel Tufnel
That is actually a good point -- however, since we did not get to see what actually went on in Fenton's head, we can't know if he was already showing some signs of psychopathy. Those signs aren't always visually apparent.
shareI'm not so sure about that OP.
Looking back on it and realising that the father was in fact not crazy, he was still torn between his love for his son and the fact that God was telling him that his son was a demon.
The real question is, did God PUT his son on the list? If God was telling him that his son, Fenton was a demon then are we to assume that he was on the list and his father didn't destroy him because it was his son? His paternal instincts were kicking in.
As a result, his punishment was that Fenton (the demon) killed the father. We all know that Adam didn't have Fenton on his list until much later on in life, so why that is, I don't know. Are we to assume that Adam didn't know himself that his brother was a demon yet? And if he DID know he was a demon, why wasn't he destroyed sooner. I think we'll go with the former and assume he didn't know he was a demon otherwise I'm sure he'd have destroyed him.
Remember, these 'holy visions' present themselves in unconventional ways. Signs. If Adam knew his brother was a demon, then he'd have taken that as a sign and had him on his list much sooner.
Fenton knew he was a demon and Adam knew it too. When they were burying their father, Fenton said something like "Promise you'll bury me in the rose garden after I'm DESTROYED." Adam couldn't destroy Fenton until Fenton's name appeared on the list.
I think Adam was the God's Hand killer. Fenton killed real people and put them in his basement. They would think he was the God's Hand killer, and it would attract Adam's attention. The real God's Hand victims (demons) were all in the rose garden.
Didn't the dad talk about the angel telling him "something" he couldn't believe after Fenton brought the cop home and the dad killed him, right before he put him in the dungeon? If so, since Fenton's action caused the cop to die (because the dad said the angel told him an innocent would die if they told anyone), perhaps Fenton wasn't on the list until after he 'caused' the sherrif to die by telling, at which point maybe the dad was supposed to kill him but didn't.
Also, the dad whispered into Adam's ear right before he died - probably to tell him that the angel told him Fenton was a devil and to pass the responsibility of slaying him to Adam when it was time as Adam mentions in the end?
In the rose garden while they are burying the dad, Fenton says promise me when (or if? can't remember) you come to destroy me, you'll bury me in the rose garden, to which Adam replies "I swear to God I will". At this point, I think both of them know Fenton is a demon because Fenton up until then refers to the killings as murder and killing, but uses the word destroy to his brother about himself, and Adam, just having heard from his dad, knows the angel told his dad he was a demon. He also knows until the angel puts Fenton on his list, he can't just kill him because then it would be murder.
Also, if you believe the premise of the movie, then perhaps Fenton didn't go crazy in the dungeon, but that God really did tell Fenton that he was a demon and that was his destiny. Fenton first says he went into insanity, but then he says he really did see God, so perhaps because of his lack of faith, he still wasn't 100 % sure he wasn't crazy but at the same time crazy or not, the vision he had was telling him his destiny was to kill the dad and be recognized as a demon.
I just saw this movie the other day and I loved it! Very good twist and was definitely one that made me rewind parts of the movie to see what was really going on!
Fenton didn't kill the cop nor did he conspire to lure the cop to be killed. The cop's death is on the father's shoulders alone. If asking help from a cop that eventually gets killed makes one a murderer, then all victims who had a rescuer die are also murderers.
Why would God, traumatize and brainwash a good kid that he was a demon and he had to commit serial killing?
Global Warming, it's a personal decision innit? - Nigel Tufnel
Adam kills by the hand of God, but Fenton is the "Gods Hand killer." Adam's killings are never discovered because he's protected by God.
The new home of Welcome to Planet Bob: http://kingofbob.blogspot.ca/
First of all, it's nothing to do with demons or angels or God. The father and Adam both have a supernatural power. Because they don't understand that power, they put labels on it that they CAN understand - angels, demons, God. In fact, they're just simple visions (has anyone seen the series Medium???).
OK, with that out of the way....Fenton is a tragic character who became a psycopathic cold blooded killer despite being so against it as a child. Even as a child when he killed his father, he was still moralistic. He spent all that time in the cellar and when he came out he said he'd seen God. He only said that so he could get out of the cellar. He knew that the only way to stop the killings would be to kill his Dad. That was what he meant when he spoke about his destiny. He always planned to kill his Dad from the moment he got out of the cellar, he just pretended he was going along with the "demon slaying".
When Adam ran at the guy with the axe and killed him, Fenton was genuinely horrified shouting out "noooo!", and when they were burying the father's body and he asked to be buried there when he was "destroyed" it felt like he was saying the word destroyed in inverted commas, like he was still sarcastic and sceptical about it, but he KNEW that Adam would come after him, because Adam was on his father's side. And Adam said "by God I will" or something like that, with real malevelonce and menace. I honestly believe at that point Fenton was still fine, he wasn't a psychopath. But slowly over the years, everything he saw as a child and all his experiences built up inside him and drove him insane. He must have been a little bit insane from being trapped in the cellar all that time anyway.
Basically, the whole family are complete psychopaths. Just because the people Dad and Adam killed were killers themselves, that in no way makes it right. Fenton is the most tragic character of them all because he was always against the killings.
^^^This so much.
Global Warming, it's a personal decision innit? - Nigel Tufnel
Fenton actually didn't react when Adam killed the guy. The guy, himself, was the one that shouted, "Noooo!" Adam also cried out when he delivered the killing blow. Fenton said nothing.
Fenton was actually pretty blase about the act of killing by that point. He buried his dad and then told Adam to bury him in the rose garden if he "destroyed" him one day. The wording he used is pretty significant.
Fenton didn't say, "If you kill me," he used the word, "destroy" -- which says to me that he accepted that he was, in fact, a demon. It would also explain why he chose to murder innocent people in the future, despite being so against it in the past.
It really is an interesting question: was Fenton driven insane by what he experienced, or was he already headed down that path, which is why the angel told his father to destroy him?
Personally, I only saw Fenton as a tragic figure when I watched the film for the first time and hadn't gotten to the twist. Once it became clear that Fenton's dad and Adam really did see those things, it made me wonder if Fenton's descent into madness was inevitable, and his time in the basement just expedited the process.
They did not kill until the names appeared on their list because that was god's will. they could not kill otherwise or it would be an act of murder to them. Using god's judgment equals god's will using their own judgment equals murder.
This is just my thought but I don't think that god really wanted the child fenton killed it was just a test of the father's faith. I think if he had of tried to kill fenton god would have intervened like he did with abraham. Then maybe fenton would have finally believed and not gone insane turning into a killer.
Hank! I had my pubes shaved. I'm gonna put them under the pillow for the tooth fairy!
God didn't tell them to kill anyone - they were insane!
shareExactly! The father just used the words 'Demon and God', etc. as reasons for including his sons in his murder spree. Who actually knows if any of the people he killed were 'evil' or if he made it up as other reasons to make the murders seem sensible. He was a serial killer and so was his son. The unborn child will probably follow in his father's footsteps believing the same insane 'reasons' to kill.
shareI think you missed the whole point of the film...We're led throughout the movie to think that they're insane, but the end reveals to us that it really was God who gave them the actual task of killing real demons. they were not just using those as labels, it was all real.
shareYep, you missed the point. It was real. That was the twist. The father and son really were doing God's work. Fenton was just a psychotic killer.
Has anyone ever told you you're as boring as you are ugly?
God's work? maybe. Or like someone said earlier, Adam and Dad were given powers but they labelled them as God. I think it's all about destiny, Fenton was always going to kill in the end, that's why the father was told he is a demon, but the father pretty much induced the killer in Fenton (destiny). The only things that bother me with the film were -
How did Adam know all of Fenton's experienced during that time? and Why did he go to the trouble of telling the Cop? <- for the movies sake I know but still. Apart from that it's a solid movie. 9/10
Not really. What the end only proves is that both the father and Adam have supernatural powers and they 'believe' they are doing God's will. Not all killers are born evil, some are made that way like Fenton being groomed and brainwashed by the father to be a 'demon.'
Global Warming, it's a personal decision innit? - Nigel Tufnel
That's what we're led to believe when Adam is telling the story through Fentons eyes. But that is not the truth. The movie proves they were not insane in the end.
The new home of Welcome to Planet Bob: http://kingofbob.blogspot.ca/
If Sandra Bullock can win an Oscar for 'The Blind Side' then ... ANYTHING ... is possible!
What the flying *beep*
What we're really talking about, if we accept that this is at best is an allegory: is coercion.
We're talking about that when one refuses to obey and abide the rules and laws of a system or establishment the establishment is the first to attack you, when before they said they would protect you. They only will protect you as long as you are part of them unconditionally.
Sounds like a manipulative, sleazeball, slimegutter god if he would have his underling, the father, murder his son because the son disagrees with a God, the establishment.
Kierkegaard Abraham-Issac complex is referred and it is the cast. God put Abraham to the test by murdering his own Son. After obedience and faith Abraham and Issac was spared. The father in Frailty did not follow through, he was smited. In both instances god imo is a horrible leader of people.
Which goes back to what we're really talking about, which is Christian Philosophy/Psychology/Ethos tones. It's not far from the tree that we're talking about willed manipulation when referring to Christianity and in this cases loyal followers of Christainity and it's god, which once again since Christianity is the Religion of the slaves and leaders of Christianity are leaders of Slaves, and Leaders of Slaves are poor leaders and they would employ such methods of leading like manipulation, coercion, and psychological attrition.
The story of Abraham and Isaac is Jewish. Adopted into Christianity. You don't study religion do you?
shareFollowing the logic whereby Dad is right and he is being commanded by God, then you could say it was destiny and according to God's plan that all that should happen. If Fenton hadn't been locked up in the basement, perhaps he wouldn't have gone nuts and wouldn't have ended up killing Dad. Remember that Dad refused to "destroy" Fenton -but not Adam. Therefore Dad should leave the scene so Adam could take over and destroy Fenton.
shareFenton was a demon all along. He just didn't "become" until he killed his father.
The new home of Welcome to Planet Bob: http://kingofbob.blogspot.ca/
If Sandra Bullock can win an Oscar for 'The Blind Side' then ... ANYTHING ... is possible!
What are you people arguing about?
This entire film is a crock of ****....?
You are actually taking pure fantasy and fiction as referential pillars to support a completely erroneous framework of theory.
In the real world, every single thing Fenton did was not only understandable but completely just, correct, and righteous; as for him becoming a serial killer IF he even did it's in direct response to the heinous and mad assault perpetuated on his person and psyche from his father and his pure god-complex craziness.
In counter every single thing the dad did was blatantly and inarguably wrong; everything Adam did was wrong even though it was directly resultant and conditioned by his father (which is understandable).
There are no demons, there are no angels, there is no telepathic ability to see people's past via tactile sensation. There is no theoretical debate about the possible scenarios of is Fenton a demon, would he or would he not have become one IF, was it expedited BY; and so too with Dad being just and innocent, the victims being demons and sinful. Bollocks. The truth is the entire foundation of the film is COMPETELLY FALLACIOUS and by no measure you be giving it slack and same token to the lazy and weak finish of the ending. (was good movie up until the ridiculous notion that 'it is all real').
And to any argument that it is allegory, *beep* off. The dad's acts are wrong with no justification or evidence, The Boondock Saints film, that's righteous vigilance and justice in one's own hands. Divine intervention by hallucengentic trips or visions?!?!? for what purpose are you arguing. And there is equally no just interpretation to Fenton's turnout that you're trying to put forth. Fenton was in the right morally and intellectually the whole way. FENTON GOT AN INNOCENT KILLED, THEN FENTON KILLED AN INNOCENT (Dad Demon Slayer), WHY? BECAUSE YOU'RE LEGITIMIZING DEMONS EXISTENCE? Demons exist in a metaphorical form, that are 'horrible, wretched, malevolent' people roaming the world, but that's the closest you get towards any sort of allegorical explanation of the actions executed by the characters.
What's absurd, and moreover SAD, yes SAD, is that this ideology will worm it's way into the collective psychology of a given demographic of people who see this movie. This completely upends everything that is scientific, factual, historical, documented, and statistically sound about Religion, Seances, Divination, Visions, the nature of Good and Evil, forms of Morality, just and unjust moral action, Imagination, Child Abuse, Murder, Just Killing, Kidnapping, Vigilanteism, Psychology, Media Fear, psychotic cultivation, and mental illness. It will insidiously further distort and disorient people who walk this earth into a confounded and spurious perception of REALITY.
This is tantamount to engendering and founding a philosophy off of a pretend world of mythical quantities and false truths. It is tantamount to constructing a philosophy of life based upon the Harry Potter world; magic, make-believe. Completely unfounded--- and departing from Physical-Spatial Laws, and everything we have tried to task and delineate as Universal Bio-Sentience truths, aka universal truths of humanity and nature.
This movie is ridiculous, MAINLY because of whatever twisted contradictory theme it's trying to expound: I grieve for anyone that has either the most remote influence on how "life is and the world woks".
This movie IS at bottom, completely fictional and fantastic no more removed then things like The Exorcist or Blair-Witch-Project: Supernatural Fiction, on par in seriousness of content as a children's book even if tonally and attitude it is DEAD SERIOUS. That's what happens when you have grown adults with minds matured who get serious about Subjects or Essenses (Essenses e.g. Cuisine, Architecture, Poetry, Tailoring, Spirituality) yet have erroneous education and life-insight to support, build, and forge it. Case in point: Religious fanatics, notice the parallel? They are dead serious about something but are dead wrong, and the consequences are drastic contradictions to Nature.
I was enjoying the film and was impressed to an extent but the last 15-20 minutes with the twist (which I saw coming [and everyone else]) but once more or less the entire morality gets upended I toss it from my consideration and laugh and weep at the same time. The ending and therefore message, whether definite or implied is atrocious.
EDIT: He had a good psychological thriller going, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THIS ACTUALLY IS IN REALITY, SINCE IN REALITY THIS COULD NEVER HAPPEN, THE ACTIONS ARE CLOSET TO PSYCHOLOGICAL DYSFUNCTION. But as SOON as he made it a Supernatural Fiction everything goes out the window. If the ending had played out it's trajectory we all would've said excellent expose/dossier of Child-Abuse, Serial-Killer/Violence Cultivation, Religious Zealotry, Psychological Profiling, Trust and Influence of Authority Figures, but instead the closest we get is saying well in theory if he (director) hadn't gone off the deep end and it had stayed within reality we more or less would have a expose/dossier of such.
If Sandra Bullock can win an Oscar for 'The Blind Side' then ... ANYTHING ... is possible!
Further this film awards and champions slave-thinking and obedient action without question, brainwashed and weak-will. Adam, seen as the light, seen as just.
On the other independence, individual thinking, questioning, and strong willed morality towards righteousness are seen as the bane. Darkness and sinful.
Further tying in to why I'm so pissed off right now. This movie is doing nothing but furthering the askew agenda of a slave morality while upholding the worst parts of Judeo-Christian tradition and morals.
You said it! This is no different than believing in the stone monster or the tree fairy, or the moon god. Adults, afraid of the uncertainy of the world (animals in the wild live that everyday), made up stories to assuage their fear and then found the power in man's fear and those in power have used it ever since. Not to mention people willing to do so because they are afraid of death and the uncertainty of life and the unknowing of death.
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