MovieChat Forums > 61* (2001) Discussion > 61* - From a UK viewpoint

61* - From a UK viewpoint

posted 19 years ago by bozz282
34 replies | jump to latest

I first saw this film on a plane coming back from a trip to Florida shortly after it was released. I have always been a baseball fan without knowing much about the game. I do not pretend to know details, stats & facts. Infact, I do not know what most of the abbreviated stats mean (RBI's ??) It does not stand me in good stead for a full on argument about who is the best, but I still love the game.
I have to shamefully confess that prior to Billy Crystal's film, I had not even heard the names Mickey Mantle & Roger Maris. Blame that on living in the UK & not on ignorance guys. What Billy did was show me just how truly great these guys were that season regardless of what they achieved later. Their efforts under immense pressure, were super human.
As soon as I could, I got hold of 61* on DVD & watched everything. I have watched the version with the directors commentary just as many times as without. I have lost count of the times I have sat through this film, each time feeling like I could watch it back to back (& I have !) I have looked up stats on the net, bought & read 'The Mick' & even found this forum. The featurette 'The making of 61*' is equally superb, giving yet more insight into not only the game itself, but the awe in which Billy Crystal & countless others hold for these heroes & they both deserved it.
I do not know the ins & outs of why Roger Maris is not in the Hall of Fame. I'm not qualified to sit here & type my reasons why he should be included. All I can say is that for a man who broke a long standing record not to be included in the hall of fame is a damn shame.
I would like to say thank you to Billy Crystal & everyone that worked on this film. Maybe some of those people may read this & it will make them smile heartily, just like their film made me smile. Nice job !

[–] brett969 19 years ago

I agree with you 100%, Maris should be in the Hall. If only for this acheivement. I am from Canada and have grown up loving everything about this game. I've played it at high levels here in Canada (haha which isn't saying much) but I like to think I have a pretty good understanding of the game. And since Maris so far is still in my mind the true season home run record holder (accomplished without the help of steriods, just look at pics of Sosa, Bonds, and McGwire in their early days..they are half the size they are now) I really think he should be in the HOF. Anyways enjoyed reading your post and am glad people in Europe can enjoy baseball just as much as us North Americans.

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[–] brett969 19 years ago

I think you get all of that from watching the movie..but thanks.

[–] Yoda101382 19 years ago

I'd like to respond to two points made in this thread.
First, Roger Maris does not belong in the Hall of Fame. Maris had 3 outstanding years (1960-1962) in which he won the MVP award twice and was an outstanding player. However, for the rest of his career he is an average player. He doesn't even have 1000 RBIs or 300 HRs in an 11 year career, and his lifetime average is only .260. Granted, there are other guys in the Hall of Fame who don't have great batting averages (not including pitchers, of course), however, they also have home run and RBI totals that show dominance for the majority of their careers. Nobody will doubt that Maris had 3 great years in a row to start off the 1960s and he certainly deserves his space in the lore of baseball, but he is not a Hall of Famer. It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good, to quote Skip Bayless of ESPN's Cold Pizza.
My second point is that it is very debatable about whether Mantle is the best player of all time. While Mantle is one of the greatest players ever, his stats are very similar to another player from his generation. That player, of course, also joins him in a very famous song by Terry Cashman. That's right, Willie Mays of the New York Giants. In the 1950s New York was the home to the three best centerfielders in the game: Willie, Mickey, and the Duke (Duke Snyder of the Dodgers, aka, the Duke of Flatbush). While Snyder is a great player, Mays and Mantle are clearly better. Follow this link and do a comparison of Mays and Mantle: http://www.baseball-reference.com/compare.cgi
If you average the stats of Mays and Mantle on a per season basis you'd find that in all major categories they are nearly identical, and don't forget they played in seasons that were 154 and 162 games. Since Mays played in 4 more seasons than Mantle he obviously has better total stats, but if you go by the averages they are essentially even, except in stolen bases, where Mays leads by almost 190 (338 to 153). Mantle won 3 MVPs, Mays won 2; Mays won NL rookie of the year in 1951, Mantle did not win Rookie of the year; Mays won 12 gold glove awards, Mantle won 1 (keep in mind that the gold glove award was first awarded in 1957); they both led their league's in batting once; Mays was a 20 time all-star (every year from 1954 to 1973), Mantle was a 16 time all-star (every year except 1966 from 1952 to 1968); both led their league in home runs 4 times; Mantle led the AL in RBIs once, Mays never led the NL in RBI; Mays led the NL in stolen bases 4 times, Mantle never led the AL in stolen bases. It is for these reasons that I believe these two are almost without argument the greatest baseball players ever. The Mantle fan will say that I have not included post season stats, and that is a fair point. However, Mantle played on much better teams than Mays did and therefore got to the World Series 8 more times (12 for Mantle, 4 for Mays). To further nitpick, Mays played in 6 post season series if you include the two National League Championship Series he played in, but even still that still makes it 12 to 6 in favor of Mantle. That being said, Mantle still has 18 HR, 40 RBI, and a .257 AVG in post season play. Mays had 1 HR, 10 RBI, and a .247 AVG.
Now, being a New York Mets fan, I of course must rule that Mays is the greatest player ever since giving this distinction to a Yankee is heresy. No matter which player (Mays or Mantle) you say is the greatest of all time you will have a very strong case, but remember this: the song is called Willie, Mickey, and the Duke, not Mickey, Willie, and the Duke.
All that said, 61* is an excellent film for any baseball fan of any age, although some of the language might be strong for an 11 year old to hear, it is still a film that any baseball fan should see.

[–] MyDarkStar 19 years ago

I think it also needs to be mentioned that Mantle played just about his entire career in pain. He ripped out cartilage in his knee his rookie year after tripping over a sprinkler in Yankee Stadium while running after a ball. He also had bone fractures in something like 15 or 16 different places in his body. We'll never know how great Mantle truly could have been.

[–] Yoda101382 19 years ago

I won't disagree that Mantle played with pain for a good portion of his career and that if he had been 100% all the time he would have been better, however, he is not the only ballplayer to have to deal with adversity. Sure, he did have knee problems because of the sprinkler incident, but after how many years is that a valid excuse? If he had taken better care of himself he would not have broken down as easily and would have had more at bats to further his assault on the record books. Mays too, had to deal with problems. Let's not forget he was playing in the era when blacks were first given the chance to play in the major leagues, and that had to have some effect on Mays. Also, Mays had to deal with the awful winds of Candlestick Park in the 2nd half of his career while he played for the Giants.
My point is that if both players played in ideal conditions they would probably still achieve similar results.

[–] MyDarkStar 19 years ago

Sure, he did have knee problems because of the sprinkler incident, but after how many years is that a valid excuse?

Well, apparently it's a valid excuse for at least 10 years since he was still getting taped up for it throughout the 60s. Keep in mind that he never really went through proper rehab for it or anything. He just rushed back to playing. I'm sure if it was Barry Bonds he would have taken the next season off.

I know a lot of Mantle's physical problems were only hurt by himself because of his partying, but the guy was just prone to injuries. He had something like 16 different bone fractures throughout his career.

Comparing Mays and Mantle is just futile. They both had different types of problems that they had to deal with. I just feel we never got to see how good Mantle could be because that sprinkler accident happened in his very FIRST season - and apparently it bothered him to some degree for the rest of his career.

[–] JLamotta 18 years ago

I think it's safe to say that Mantle was the most talented player of all time, or he had the most potential. He did play in pain, but he also played hung over quite a bit, and he didn't take care of his health. BTW has anyone seen the HBO documentary "Mantle"? I cryed my eyes out...what is it about baseball that makes me cry? Field of Dreams, The Natural, Bang the Drum Slowly, this...

Sometimes...there's a man.

[–] DaBullss45 19 years ago

Thank you, very well said. Maris was good for a few seasons, but for the rest of his career he was just a so-so player, mediocre at best. Great year in '61, didn't hit .300 that year either. He'll be in the history books forever even though 3 guys have already passed him, but he still shouldn't be considered for the Hall of Fame. Guy Hecker won 52 games on the mound in 1884, which is good enough for 3rd on the all time single-season list, but he isn't in the hall of fame.

[–] DJMan-51 19 years ago

I followed Maris' quest as a kid and cheered him on, but couldn't realistically support his case for the Hall of Fame. He was a very good defensive player, but his offense was limited to home runs, and once he lost his power due to injuries, he was never more than just a good ballplayer.

He did have that one courageous run at the greatest record of them all. When the smoke clears, probably everybody with consecutive MVP awards or 57+ homer seasons will be in the Hall of Fame . . . except for Maris.

Now, had he become a decent coach, manager or broadcaster after retring as a player, it might have helped his argument, but he became a beer distributor instead. Can't say that I blame him, given his treatment by the game.

[–] r2626 15 years ago

How would becoming a coach or an announcer help someone get into tha Hall Of Fame as a player?

Help stamp out and do away with redundancy

[–] DJMan-51 15 years ago

It keeps the retired player's name in front of the public, and adds a bit to his "fame," which is what we're talking about. Dizzy Dean's career as a broadcaster probably boosted him in.

[–] FRANKDRAFTING 19 years ago

STOLEN BASES??? In those days with guys like Berra and Maris and Moose Skowron on the team a stolen base was insignificant! Mantle was once asked why he was'nt one of the first players to hit 30 home runs and steal 30 bases his reply was "nobody aksed us to". Power was the game in the '50's and early '60's. Speed became more of a factor after expansion and watering down the talent pool. Mays was, in my opinion, maybe the greatest all around player ever, but Mantle was a much more feared hitter and , as far as I know, still holds the record for running from the plate to first base - 3.1 seconds, if memory serves. Mays played in a band box during his hey day. Candlestick park was very small. The winds, when swirling, were terrible to a power hitter, but when the blew out, they had field days. I do feel Mays faced tougher pitching, but he also had McCovey and/or Cepeda batting behind him for protection. Ah what's the use? They were both great!!!!!

[–] Bantam_Storm 14 years ago

Regarding your assessment of Maris, it's very good. I can't add much else except that Maris has his place in Yankee history, as he should, but in baseball history he does fall a little flat. That's not meant to be disrespectful, just honest.

[–] Stirling00 19 years ago

Wow, I didn't think anyone in the UK or the rest of Europe followed baseball! It IS a great game, thought a little hard to follow when you first start watching it I imagine. I have the same feeling towards rugby, it entertains me but I don't always know what's going on. And cricket? No f%#%# clue!

RBI's mean Runs Batted In [how many players make it to home base because of their hits]- they're probably the best way to measure a hitter's offensive production.

[–] Yoda101382 19 years ago

Just to clarify something. I am not writing from a UK viewpoint, but just trying to give some clarity and observation from an American to our friends in Europe.

[–] jucrew1 11 years ago

I realize this post is almost 10 years old, but i have to correct you just in-case anyone else from the UK is just reading this.....RBI's are probably the WORST way to measure a hitter's offensive production.

[–] MyDarkStar 19 years ago

It's great to see that you enjoyed the movie so much & have taken such an interest in Mickey Mantle & baseball in general. For you, I recommend two different movies :

- "Baseball" - this is a very well made documentary mini-series which was made by Ken Burns. It gives the entire history of baseball in Ken Burns' style. Superb.

- "Mantle" - This was an hour long documentary done by HBO on Mickey Mantle. It goes into great detail of Mantle's personal & professional life. It especially goes into detail of Mantle's personal demons including his alcoholism, his father's early death, and his great depression. One of the people interviewed througout the documentary is Billy Crystal. It is being repeated this month on HBO. You can go here for more details & even its schedule :

http://www.hbo.com/events/mantle/

"Baseball" is on DVD & I highly recommend it. Of course it has tons and tons of interviews and rare footage, along with some of the most famous baseball images and videos of all time. It's great for both huge fans of the game, as well as somebody who knows practically nothing about the game. Arguably the greatest documentary ever done on baseball.

[–] amar119 19 years ago

I was sad the last time Maris' name came of up for Hall of Fame consideration and he wasn't voted in, but ... it's true, he only had a few great seasons. But who knows how much better he could've been if he could have really fit in in New York!

Anyway, if you love Maris and are anywhere near Fargo, North Dakota, stop by and see his home town :) They have a museum dedicated to him - I haven't seen it in years, but they have some of his homerun balls, etc. and when they redid it a few years ago they even got some seats from old Yankee Stadium!

[–] FRANKDRAFTING 19 years ago

Amy - Maris was my hero as a kid. I've never been to the museum, but would love to go someday. I remember Mickey Mantle saying Roger was the finest natural athlete he had ever seen. He could do just about anything. Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Maris, Musial(for a short while) - what a magical time the early '60's were in baseball. 1945 to 1965 was truly the golden age of baseball!

[–] jones-95 19 years ago

I love your post!

It's so great to read something sincere and kind on these boards. So many people just want to shout out how they know more than anyone else.

I love this movie too. I've seen it tons of times and each time, it gets me. Each time I smile, cheer, cry and laugh. It's a wonderful story and both Mantle and Marris are the kinds of men baseball--and the world--needs.

There is no place I know to compare with pure imagination. -- willy wonka, 1971

[–] jescci 19 years ago

A couple of thoughts.

Three men have hit more homers in a season than Maris, but it's been done 6 times.

As a poster alluded to above, Maris was also crippled by injuries cutting his career short.

A poster above asked us to imagine what Mantle could have accomplished had he been healthy. I ask to imagine what he could have done had he played sober.

Jim, do you know what you've done?
He knows, Doctor. He knows.

[–] prabhjot 19 years ago

ted williams was the best offense player of all time. if he didn't serve for 5 years he'd have more dingers than hank aaron with a better batting average.
but mays and mantle are up there. also if its just based on stats, theres a ton of players in the majors today that have 500 or will have 500 dingers. i don't think dingers are the only basis of whose the best. i said dinger, henh henh, (snicker)

[–] jescci 19 years ago

<<i don't think dingers are the only basis of whose the best>>

Along those lines, at the rate things are going, there will come a day when having 500 homers is not a guarantee of getting into the hall of fame.

<<if he didn't serve for 5 years he'd have more dingers than hank aaron>>

Doubtfull. Even if he averaged 40 dingers a year - which is more than he was averaging in the years before and after his military service - he'd only have had 721 lifetime.

Jim, do you know what you've done?
He knows, Doctor. He knows.

[–] tpevon 19 years ago

you have to realize, Ted Williams would have broken Babe Ruth's home run record when he retired, not Hank Aaron's. Ted Williams retired in 1960, and if he hit those extra 200 homers, he would have passed the Babe's 714. Then when Hank Aaron retired in 1976, his 755 would have passed Ted Williams 721.

[–] stevfins13 19 years ago

i know all the stats and that maris didnt have the greatest career outside of those three amazing years, but the fact is he did have those three amazing years, with two mvps, if sandy kofax (who has under 150 wins) can be in the hall of fame, and he most definately should with only five good years (amazing years) why should maris...one more thing with putting maris in the context of what he did ask yourself why is bill mazorawski (sp) in the hall of fame (.260 batting average) he is in the hall because of one homerun, if he gets in for one homerun, maris should get in for having the single greatest homerun hitting season ever (without steriods and tiny ballparks) plus two other fantastic seasons

[–] azarr2 18 years ago

The difference was that Koufax from 62-66 was by far the most dominating player in the game, whereas Maris only had 2 years where he was among the elite players in the game (but not in a class by himself like Koufax) and one more year as a good player, and was average the rest of his career. And Mazeroski is in the hall because he was among the best defensive players of all time and supposedly revolutionized the way second basemen turn double plays (according to Tim Kurkjan, at least).

[–] alpa41 18 years ago

Maris was treated bad by baseball people. He went through a lot for even breaking the record. I was glad to see him get the record without the * before his name, for his family. He did not have a hall of fame career. But you know that the story of that season is somewhere in the hall.

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[–] thefoxes-2 17 years ago

Absolutely correct. After all, it's the Hall of FAME... not the Hall of Lifetime Achievement. There are so many one-trick ponies in every professional sports' Halls of Fame, so why should Maris be denied? Because he was a small-town kid who didn't coddle to the finicky New York fans? Ridiculous. What he did over a mere six months is worthy of permanent notoriety. By the way, this is coming from a Brewers fan, of all people, and not a die-hard Yankees fanatic. Maris was robbed in life, and he's still being robbed in death.

[–] edjavega 11 years ago

I myself wouldn't vote for Roger Maris if I were a Hall of Fame voter, but if he ever does get in, I wouldn't complain about that either. The Hall of Fame is precisely that, a Hall of FAME, and certainly every baseball fan knows of Roger Maris, and what he accomplished in 1961.

Yes, his mark of 61 homers in one season has been surpassed a few times. But in those seasons, Bonds, McGwire and Sosa did NOT do it for a World Series champion. Many of them didn't even make the playoffs those years they hit all those home runs. Maris was a winner.

#61 is a wonderful film and certainly one of the most watchable and enjoyable sports films ever made. Kudos to Billy Crystal for making it.

[–] emncaity 10 years ago

So right. Maris was good enough to be a player in the majors for 12 years, and he broke a home-run record that had stood for decades, passing even the great Mantle and several other greats along the way, along with playing on three championship teams in six appearances in the World Series.

He was also a four-time All-Star and a two-time MVP of the entire league, the first time on an AL-pennant-winning team and the second time on a World Series champion.

Yeah. Pretty thin on record, that guy.

He also ended his career with a .982 fielding percentage, so it's not like you could take it away from him on the basis of fielding.

Anytime you have a guy who does something earth-shaking like he did, you can understand why voters might want to look at the rest of his career to see if it's substandard enough to indicate that the one big achievement was a fluke. But there's no way you can look at his record and say that. If he were a career .210 hitter, okay. But power hitters are valuable even if they hit .260; they're told to drive runs in and not worry about average. And a guy who won not one but two league MVPs, and went to the All-Star game four times, and who did it all on the highest-visibility team in the majors while they were winning championships, is no fluke. It's an absolute joke that he's not in.

In the end, the point really is this: Everybody, and I mean everybody, who knows baseball at all knows and appreciates what Maris did. That should end the discussion about whether he belongs in any Hall of "Fame."

The truth is that the perception that Maris doesn't belong in the Hall is a holdover from those "he doesn't really deserve it" days of the pro-Mantle and pro-Ruth prejudice in 1961. There are guys in the Hall right now who can't come close to matching Maris' achievement or notoriety.

For the record, I'm the rare Red Sox fan who not only likes the Yankees and appreciates what they've done (all those years the Yanks were winning World Series in the '90s and '00s, and most Sox fans were ragging them with the "you suck" stuff, I was thinking hey, we ought to pay attention and learn how to play like these guys...and Joe Torre is still one of my absolute favorite people in the game), but who roots for them when the Sox are out of the race or out of the playoffs. I'm just in love with the game and with anybody who's playing it well. Which is exactly why I know, and you know, that Maris ought to be in the Hall. And it's sickening that he's not. On the other hand, to anybody who knows the game, he's in the one that actually matters.