MovieChat Forums > The Believer (2001) Discussion > Sabra and Shatila

Sabra and Shatila

posted 17 years ago by metal_beast100
22 replies | jump to latest

Daniel was right about the Sabra and Shatila Massacre which was carried out by Israel against the innocent Lebanese people in 1983.

That's one of the reasons why Daniel hated being a Jew because extremist Jews were living in denial and consequently are ready to defend every and single action Israel committed even in killing muslim kids, women and innocent men. But again extremism can be found in every religion. Daniel took it too hard on himself and as a result he went to the other opposite end of extremism.

[–] simon12345 17 years ago

You have the facts wrong.
Did you hear Daniel's friend answer him?
What actually happened was that a Christian militia entered the Lebanese camp and did the killing. There is no arguement about this whatsoever. The point of contention is, was the massacre "allowed" by Israeli soldiers who could have prevented it, or not.

[–] akwilks2002 17 years ago

[–] Ostronaut 16 years ago

Don't you think this should be a question too? Is anyone ever speaking about phalangists or murder of their president or terroristic PLO actions, that was based in Sabra & Shatila?

Every time anyone hears this two words it's about condemning Israel. Well, you really have to look hard to find out this was all Israel's or Sharon's fault, actually. But I think the most important part is, that only in a democratic state like Israel there was a trial against someone, who could be even partly guilty of what has happened. Did anyone hear about UN inactivity while massacres in Africa or Belgian/French massacres in Africa? Did someone hear about any general or UN high official undergoing a trial?

Well, truth is, that such things are THAT normal for anyone except Israel (e.g. arabic/islamistic organizations), that this historical event becomes abundantly attention-getting.

[–] Victover 15 years ago

C´mon, don't insult us with the same old *beep* that someone else did it worse so wer'e just fine.
Sabra and Sattila was a landmark to show the israelis wasting a hell of a lot of the world sympathy and the international negative reaction is still hanging up in the air to demonstrate that any nation on earth is capable of anything. This looks really bad in one of them with the guts of calling itself the chosen people.

If every animal had wings the sh*t of this world would be more evenly shared

[–] borogroves 16 years ago

You follow up false facts with more false facts. The Israeli report found Sharon indirectly responsible. Nobody ever concluded that the Phalangists were ordered in by the Israelis. It was horrible that the Israeli soldiers didn't stop the massacre. But don't just make up whatever facts suit you.

[–] tokugawa227 14 years ago

The Israeli Kahan Commission, which was an investigative body, not a judicial body, concluded Defense Minister Sharon was "personally responsible" for the massacre and should never again hold elective office.

From Wikipedia article on Kahan Commission:

"The Defence Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found to bear personal responsibility "for ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge" and "not taking appropriate measures to prevent bloodshed". Sharon's negligence in protecting the civilian population of Beirut, which had come under Israeli control amounted to a non-fulfillment of a duty with which the Defence Minister was charged, and it was recommended that Sharon be dismissed as Defence Minister.

"Initially, Sharon refused to resign, and Prime Minister Menachem Begin refused to fire him. However, following a peace march against the government, as the marchers were dispersing, a grenade was thrown into the crowd, killing Emil Grunzweig, a reserve combat officer and peace activist, and wounding half a dozen others, including the son of the Interior Minister. Although Sharon resigned as Defence Minister, he remained in the Cabinet as a Minister without Portfolio. Years later Sharon would be elected Israel's Prime Minister."

[–] simon12345 16 years ago

Oh please. Even the Israeli investigation blamed Sharon and said that the Lebanese Phalangist (fascist) militias, Israel's allies, were ordered into the camps after the PLO killed their President. The Israeli soldiers cut off access to and from the camp while their stooges murdered women and children. They stood guard for hours hearing the screams.

**************

Absolutely not true.

Read the Israeli investigation papers yourself.

Sharon never ordered them in. He was partially blamed for not stopping it.

By the way, were any - yes, any - of the Arabs who actually did the killing go on trial? No, because killing is quite accepted in the the Arab world.

Only in Israel was an Israeli general investigated for possibly not stopping the killing of another country's citizens.

[–] akwilks2002 16 years ago

Killing is quite accepted in the Arab world? Really? more so in the US? Which city has more murders, LA or Cairo? Name one Arab leader who has killed as many people as Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, Mao, Pol Pot.

[–] simon12345 16 years ago

You feed right into my point.

In the Western world murder is beyond the pale, hence the vilification of those people you mentioned. The Western world abhors murder and won't sit back from labeling these murderers.
In the Arab world, barely anyone blinks an eye. Did you know that King Hussein of Jordan killed 20,000 Palestinians in 11 days of September 1970?
That is more than all the Palestinians killed by Israel since its founding. Yet, King Hussein was regarded as a moderate!
That was but one example. It's a fact.
Honor killings are commonplace in the Arab world. In the Western world it's called murder.

Here you can read more about Black September.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

[–] akwilks2002 16 years ago

So wait. The Arab world has never produced a mass murder like those in the West, but because we feel real bad about white European killers of tens of millions of people like Hitler and Stalin, we are civilized, and they are not? Huh? You lost me there.

King Hussein killed 20,000 armed Muslim terrorists who tried to overtake his country? Oh the horror! George Bush kills that many Muslim men, women and children before breakfast!

Manson, Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, Al Capone, Pablo Escobar, Lenin...The Arabs are pikers when it comes to killing.

[–] simon12345 16 years ago

Again you missed my point.

All your information about killers is only due to the fact that in the Western world killing is terrible. Therefore, it is publicized. In the Arab world people simply don't care much, and that is why there are very few figures.

By the way, your statement about President Bush exposes your anti-American, possibly pro-terrorist, leanings.
We are not discussing war. We are discussing normal life.
In the Arab world killing is very common, and rarely gets reported or prosecuted.
Why don't you travel there, as I did, and live the life a little.
Stop believing the "blame America for everything" crowd, and realize the truth.
Western civilization has its terrible faults, but it can't compare to barbarism.

[–] simon12345 16 years ago

And back to the main point; why was not one Arab, out of the hundreds who carried out the actual killings, put on trial, yet, Ariel Sharon was forced to resign from his position for not stopping the massacre?

The answer, please?

Arab kill Arabs....nobody cares much. A Jew, or American, is remotely involved......the world starts crying.

[–] hilal_em 16 years ago

In the Arab world killing is very common, and rarely gets reported or prosecuted.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cant belive I am reading this.I’m a 26 arab from qatar and this is the first time I know that killing in our countries is as common as drinking water!!!
Dude the united states has the highiest rate of gun related crimes in the world and you are telling people that killing is so common in our countries and people don’t even report it!,in some states you guys can buy guns from K-mart and I have only seen a gun once in my life and just could’t belive I was “meeting a gun in person” !.You guys need to learn a little more about the rest of world.Please don’t assum that you guys are living “the dream” and you are in heaven when the rest of the world is in sorrow.As for Sbara and Shatila it is only a tiny examble of Israel’s long history in crime.I know not all Jews abrove of what Israel is doing but the world need to know that this state has commited many massicars.The westren world only counts the victims of terririsim acts but forgets that the “state terririsim” acts takes much much more lives.If you carry on a simple statistics of how many victims were killed by the israeli army over the years and how many were killed by terrorist you would be shocked to know it is atleast 10 times and lets not forget when a responsible army of a democratic country commits a crime it should be regarded than a much worst act than when terrorists do it

[–] simon12345 16 years ago

Hilal em -

Two points.

1 - You are right about Qatar. Crime is low etc. However, have you ever been to the Palestinian areas and watched murders and all sorts of violent crime take place without almost anybody caring? Did you know that last year when Hamas took over the Gaza strip they were throwing Fatah people off rooftops? Probably not. But it's true. Do your research from people who were there.

2 - You can not compare Israel to Arab terrorists. If the Arabs would just accept Israel's presence in the Middle East, you know as well as I know, Israel wouldn't launch any wars. Everything is caused by the Arab's refusal to accept Israel. If you don't agree with this, you are either hopelessly brainwashed or a knee-jerk-anti-Israel-no-matter-what.

[–] rysadi 14 years ago

"2 - You can not compare Israel to Arab terrorists. If the Arabs would just accept Israel's presence in the Middle East, you know as well as I know, Israel wouldn't launch any wars. Everything is caused by the Arab's refusal to accept Israel. If you don't agree with this, you are either hopelessly brainwashed or a knee-jerk-anti-Israel-no-matter-what."

------------------------------------

The problem is not arabs not wanting to recognize israel, its that israel does not want to recognize a palestinian state. The israelis want all their land AND they want to be recognized. You can't have it both ways no matter how many children you shoot.

Do you know how many deals the arabs have tried to make with israel? Do you even remember the King abdullah deal from just a few years back? Full recognition if israel withdrew from the occupied palestinian territories. What was israel's response? NOTHING.
They instead dropped bombs on Lebanon and then later dropped phosphorus bombs on Gaza. So much for peace.

The israelis know they can take all of the palestinian land if they wait long enough and kill enough palestinian men, women, and children and just generally make life miserable enough for the palestinians to leave. They have full US support so whats the hurry?

[–] Archimagibel 14 years ago

"The problem is not arabs not wanting to recognize israel, its that israel does not want to recognize a palestinian state. The israelis want all their land AND they want to be recognized. You can't have it both ways no matter how many children you shoot. "
Exactly what you said the opposite. All the peace negotiation attempts have always come from the Israelis. Israel left Gaza strip and received rockets, which are fire at Israeli civilians, children among them.

If you arabs really cared about palestinians you wouldn't have kept them as refugees in miserable conditions, but given them full citizenship. It only reveals that no body really care about palestinians in arab countries, all teh despotic rulers and ,so called opposition wants, is some scape goat for their miserable citizens (an lets face it, most population of arab countries does not live in good conditions) to sweep them away from the real problems of their countries.

[–] akwilks2002 16 years ago

You are wrong. Crime in Arab countries is far less thasn crime in America. Period. And I don't there have been any Arab Hitlers or Stalins that we don't know about. I joined the US Army Reserve when I turned 17 and served 8 years, so don't lecture me about patriotism. Don't believe Israeli and Fox News propaganda.

[–] simon12345 16 years ago

All due respect to you for your service.

But I disagree. The Western world, with all it's faults, is much less violent than the Arab world.

[–] akwilks2002 16 years ago

Where the Arab and muslim world is lagging is in the treatment of women and embrace of modern science and values. But in the 20th centruy, the West was far far worse in terms of crime, violence, war and genocide.

[–] pbl1 12 years ago

and all the centuries before that...arab/muslim world was the undisputed champ!

What the $%*& is a Chinese Downhill?!?

[–] therealmikewebster 12 years ago

In the contect of the film, Daniels point makes no sense. He brought up Sabra and Shatila to say that Jews are capable of massacres, but earlier on, he states that he doesnt consider Israeli's to be Jews at all. All the bickering about Sabra and Shatila aside (it was the Israeli-allied Kataeb who committed the massacre while the IDF played the role of passive observer), in the context of the movie, this is something of a plot hole.

The movie is primarily about anti-Semitism in regards to American Jews, it would have been better if Israel simply got the first mention during the interview scene and was not talked about after that. Not every topic about the Jewish people needs include Israel, nor does Israel have a monopoly over Jewishness. The Believer got this mostly right.

[–] scion9 12 years ago

Daniel is being asked if he is a Fascist, and he replies "What is a Fascist?" The argument is about the definition of 'fascism' and Daniel is implying that Zionism is Fascism. He's trying to undercut the presumption of moral superiority that his opponent holds.