MovieChat Forums > The Believer (2001) Discussion > Question

Question

posted 15 years ago by kausix777
12 replies | jump to latest

I haven't watched this movie but the plot summary and the description disturb me.

Here's why:

"the Plot follows a morally confused young adult struggling with the conflict between his beliefs and his heritage."

Thinking over conflicting thoughts is the mark of a matured individual, not a morally confused soul.

Also, the protagonist is said to be "self"-loathing. I don't understand this. When ordinary American citizens opposed the war in Iraq, did they become self-loathing and anti-American?

why is it assumed here that a person of Jewish origin would always have to have a jewish self? Beliefs are built over time, partly inspired by surroundings and parentage / heritage. The protagonist may not be "self" loathing but may be loathing certain practices associated with jews.

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Div_Muzza 15 years ago

Thought this was a pontless film. Had no real point to it. Good performance from Gosling but weak plot.

Anybody in Glasgow looking for actors contact me at [email protected]

[–] inspired-kiwi 14 years ago

"Thinking over conflicting thoughts is the mark of a matured individual, not a morally confused soul."

I disagree. I think people at a large variety of places in their life can 'think over conflicting thoughts'. For example a teenager contemplating suicide probably often 'thinks over conflicting thoughts' whilst probably having a morally confused soul.

Plus, is anyone ever really 'matured'? I think maturity is a journey not a destination.

[–] kausix777 14 years ago

Hmm - interesting point of view. Agree with the example you gave. But in this case, the conflict is within the protagonist's "self" who is said to be "morally" confused. So, who gives that moral? :-)

[–] inspired-kiwi 14 years ago

I assume by "in this case" you are referring to the film? If so I don't understand why you don't see where the morals are coming from that are confusing the protagonist. Have you still not seen the film? They make it very clear in the film where the morals come from that confuse him.

[–] kausix777 14 years ago

I guess I finally need to watch the film before commenting on it any more. Sorry. :-)

[–] inspired-kiwi 14 years ago

Just wondering are you studying/have you studied social psychology or sociology?

[–] kausix777 14 years ago

No, but they interest me quite deeply.

[–] inspired-kiwi 14 years ago

Just some of the terminology you used - I studied psych and did Social Psych as part of my degree.

[–] kylopod 14 years ago

>Also, the protagonist is said to be "self"-loathing. I don't understand this.

Let me put this simply. "The Believer" is about a Jew who joins a neo-Nazi group. Neo-Nazi groups, by definition, do not like Jews. Therefore, a Jew who joins a neo-Nazi group is by definition engaging in a self-loathing act. The most obvious reason why a person would engage in a self-loathing act is because that person is a self-loathing individual. Therefore, it is natural to assume that a Jew who joins a neo-Nazi group is self-loathing.

[–] kausix777 14 years ago

Disagreed. I think you did not understand my post.

a Jew who joins a neo-Nazi group. Neo-Nazi groups, by definition, do not like Jews.

Ok, so maybe he did not like Jews either. That's what my question is: Why is it expected that all Jews would like Jews?

Therefore, a Jew who joins a neo-Nazi group is by definition engaging in a self-loathing act.

He's engaging in a Jew-loathing act, not a "self"-loathing act. Again, the assumption on your part is that all jews' "self" is jewish (thoeretical or in practice).

The most obvious reason why a person would engage in a self-loathing act is because that person is a self-loathing individual.

Again, not a "self-loathing" act but a jew-loathing act, you may say. And that is what my point is: he may be a self-loving person who does not associate his "self" with a group that he assumedly belongs to.

[–] ciprianl 10 years ago

The point is that Nazis hate all Jews, even the ones that don't acknowledge themselves as Jews (Jews who converted to Christianity were not exempted from persecution by the Nazi regime, nor from persecution from earlier progroms in Medieval Europe). That's why antisemitism is a form of racism. It's the race that counts, not culture or avowed identity. So a Jew who joins up with them while he knows he is one (this is not the case of someone who doesn't have any knowledge of his Judaic ancestry) must hate himself for being a Jew (or, in this case, maybe hate God for making him a Jew).