Good enough for 'em! But I dont know what atrocities you're talking about. I know that in 1870 the Germans paraded through Paris, humiliating the French after their defeat. Also it is true that most of them were never punished. A lot were never caught in South America. Id like to point out to you that I dont see anything wrong with hating a rascist. You could say Im rascist against Germans, but thats because they started the most terrible war in history, in my opinion, at a time when most other civilised countries in Europe were democracies. But seriously, what atrocities?
Hello Niall100!
Good enough for 'em!
?
I know that in 1870 the Germans paraded through Paris, humiliating the French after their defeat.
That's normal, it takes place in every war, on any side. Especially with France, there was the problem that France regarded Germany as its "arch-enemy" - for centuries! Just think of the terrible campaigns in the Palatine executed by Louis XIV or just think of the terrible army of Napoleon! I have got the impression that (not only) you think that Germans are the most belligerous, aggressive, war-loving people in Europe, if not in the world. That's why I would like to give you a statistic. In all in all 278 wars between 1480 and 1940 the following countries took part:
England / Britain: 28 %
France: 26 %
Russia: 22 %
Turkey: 15 %
Poland: 11 %
Germany (inclusive Prussia): 8 %
Got it?
Also it is true that most of them were never punished. A lot were never caught in South America.
No. The highest "big shots" were hanged after the Nuremberg Trials (rightfully). And very many ordinary men (soldiers etc.) had to stay many years as prisoners etc. Those how could escape were mostly on the "middle-level".
Id like to point out to you that I dont see anything wrong with hating a rascist.
Why?
You could say Im rascist against Germans,
So... didn't you say above that you hate racists?
but thats because they started the most terrible war in history,
WWII was undoubtedly a terrible war. But that one was forced upon Germany. It was Britain and France who declared war on Germany and refused all German peace offers - NOT vice versa.
Moreover, if you say that hate "Germans" as such for WWII, this is a hate based on ethnicity, i. e. "racist".
in my opinion, at a time when most other civilised countries in Europe were democracies.
You seem to equate "civilization" with "democracy" here - but these terms are not synonymous. Moreover, every sovereign country has the right to determine its system of government on its own - may it be a democracy or not.
And no, many countries in Europe were not all democracies. Just a few examples: Spain, Italy or Russia. Russia is very important in this context. The cruelties and the millions of massacred civilians by the communists after the October Revolution lead to a fear of communism in Germany. And in France and Belgium for instance, half of the people were not allowed to vote.
But seriously, what atrocities?
Well, you tell me that you do not know about all this, now...
"Firestorm" For a long time, I imagined the bomb war like this: The Allies (British and US-American) threw bombs on German military installations, weapon-production-plants, infrastructure like railway stations and so on. By this, unfortunately it was caused also what we nowadays euphemistically call "collateral damage" either because the target was missed, some buildings nearby were affected or the wrong target was chosen (e. g. they thought they'd bomb a steel plant that was in fact a school). This picture is wrong, or only a small part of the picture. Well, because more than 90 % of the industry remainded uneffected, whereas the most import 130 cities were destroyed completely. Deliberately.
In 1940, Winston Churchill decided to terrorize the German people for centuries by both devastating the German (not: Nazi) culture and the country - destruction of inner cities, castles, palaces, monasteries, churches, cathedrals, libraries - and killing about one million civilians. For no military reason but terror for the future. (In the end, the number of dead civilians by the bomb war was only 650 to 800 thousands.) It was even planned to use WMDs (chemical or biological) on Germany, but this would have inhibited the occupation. It was even planned to burn down the Black Forst: Nazi trees! The last one to declare war on nature was Caligula (allegedly).
"It is one of the greatest triumphs of modern emotional engineering that, in spite of the plain facts of the case which could never be disguised or even materially distorted, the British public, throughout the Blitz Period (1940 - 1941), remained convinced that the entire responsibility for their sufferings rested on the German leaders." [F. J. P. Veale, "Advance to Barbarism")
There were even "emigrated German" architects that helped the Americans to build up models of German cities in the Nevada desert. They imitated the typical architecture in North and South, East and West. First, they threw bombs to destroy the roofs and the window panes. And then there were fire bombs thrown into. This in several places in the city, so that they unified in a ring that enclosed all asphyxiated all life within. The civilians (women, elderly people and children - the young men had to go to war) had leave the cellars as soon as they could not hear the bombers anymore. Often this was too late.
"Bomber" Harris was not even given the honours other generals got and his pilots were not even given the orders all the other soldiers received. Some of Winston Churchill's biographers even pointed out that he should have been put in the
dock of the Nurmberg trial on war crimes as well. Just one more.
Did it even help to precipitate the surrender, the end of the war? No. Just the opposite, unfortunately. 1. The planes bombing the cities were not there to bomb the weapon industry at the same time. 2. It even forged the Germans closer together with their government: They organized the food and water supply, while the civilians sat in the air protection cellars with the Americans bombing by day and the British by night. Even those who vehemently opposed the nazis were shocked by the destruction of their cities.
Examples: Dresden and Pforzheim were only destroyed because till then they were undestroyed. Or Swinemünde, a spa city on the Baltic Sea crammed with refugees from east Prussia was bombed: the spa park where women and children settled, followed by deep flying planes shooting at the fleeing. But Peenemünde nearby, the city where the nazis viciously tried to build a "wonder weapon" (V2) and where more than 20.000 slave workers died, was NOT attacked. In my home town, there was a military plant in a smalltown on the outskirts. But this plant was NOT attacked. Instead, the whole inner city looked like ground zero; even the cathedral was deliberately attacked 3 times (and destroyed). Or Dresden: This city on the river Elbe ("Florence of the Elbe") was destroyed for no military reason but keeping the planes busy: It was crammed with refugees for East Prussia and full of art. The (mainly British) planes destroyed the museums, opera house, the Frauenkirche (rebuild and reconsacrated on October 31st 2005 - just have a look in the newspapers) - and killed roughly estimated 300.000 civilians in a single night: They were either asphyxiated, burnt to dust, shrinked to the size of a children's doll or - burning like a torch because of the phosphorine deliberately used jumping into the river Elbe - boiled alive in the fire-heated river. The railway station in Dresden was NOT attacked - this was done three weeks later by American planes.
If you are interested in Germany and the Germans today, it is important know about this. You wondered why the Germans so vehemently opposed the Iraq war? That's why.
I'd like to add that not only the British invented the bomb war but they even started it in WWII.
"Ethnic Cleaning": In the eastern parts of Germany (East Prussia, Silesia etc.) and eastern European countries where they had lived for centuries 12 - 15 million civilians (elderly people, women and children) were expelled from their homes and driven off to the west in winter - 2 to 3 millions (especially little children) died on the way: frozen, starved, violated to death etc. Even this spring, Ian Kershaw, a British historian said in a respectable political German magazine that all this was good ("at least there are no Germans in Eastern Europe anymore") - and no letter to the editor was published in the next issues - although I'm sure the magazine got a lot.
Mass violations: The Read Army deliberately (!) used mass violations as a method of terror and warfare. E. g.: Estimated 80 % of the female population of Berlin was raped by Red Army soldiers-
POWs: Not only many German POWs were transported to Russia (Siberia) to do forced labour, but also 5 to 6 million German POWs simply "disappeared" in both Russian and
Allied (British, French, American) hands (it is only disputed in whose hands disappeared more). "Disappeared" here means "vanished": Beaten up, starved, shot etc. - all an infringement of the "Geneva Convention".
Read: "Other Losses" by James Bacque.
Forced labour: Also many civilians (e. g. male and female teenagers) in the parts of Germany that were occupied by the Red Army were forced to do forced labour in Siberia - and often never came back.
And furthermore: If you want to hate everything that is German - at least be consequent and hate EVERYTHING!
* Don't listen to classical music by Mozart, Bach, Beethoven - all Germans!
* Don't read books by Goethe, Schiller - all Germans!
* Don't read books anyway - bookprint with moveable letters in Europe is a German invention!
* Don't buy a car with airbags - German invention!
* Don't drive a car anyway - German invention!
* Don't be Catholic - German Pope!
* Don't be Protestant - Martin Luther was German!
* Don't wait for Santa Claus - German invention (Wotan/Odin, Martin Luther, Moritz Schwind, Thomas Nast)!
* Don't put up a Christmas tree in your house - German invention!
* Don't have a christmas wreath with four candles - German invention!
* Don't have a christmas calendar with 24 doors - German invention!
* Don't go to New York - German foundation (when the Dutch founded "New Amsterdam", they officially still belonged to Germany - until 1648)
* Don't have any german shepherd, schnauzer, pomeranian, poodle etc. - all German breeds!
...
* Don't download any mp3-files - German invention (Fraunhofer-Institut)!
* And finally switch off your computer - German invention! ;-)))Yours,
Thusnelda
PS:
As you can see, there's more in this world than the mass media and the entertainment industry present you - just find out for yourself! :-)
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Balberith
19 years ago
Beautiful post Thusnelda!
Oh BTW, would you please check your private messages box.:-)
"A real man would rather bow down to a strong woman than dominate a weak one"
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Total_Overdose02
19 years ago
Stalin may have killed more people, but Hitler's IDEOLOGY was MUCH more evil!!
How stupid can you both be?
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ketone_of_sexiness
19 years ago
I'm black so either way it went I would have been dead...
I don't hate Germans though for what happened about 60 years ago(even though about two years ago I looked in a book called the Holocaust Chronicles and saw the pictures, I didn't sleep for about three nights, and became depressed for about two weeks), I mean, If I hate all Germans for what went on in Germany 60 something years ago, then I should hate all white people for what happened a hundred something years ago, and not all are guilty.
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velcronewsletter
19 years ago
many survivors say that they don't want to talk to the german people their age becuase they were brainwashed into being in the hitler youth
OOOOOH MATRON! *Cue the campy voice Kenneth*
The elusive duende.....
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Thusnelda
19 years ago
many survivors say that they don't want to talk to the german people their age becuase they were brainwashed into being in the hitler youth
"Racists".
So much for the assertion that "nobody claims 'collective guilt'".
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Nnn000
19 years ago
I get what your saying total overdose02. Stalin killed opposers of his regime but Hitler killed Jews, gypsies, gays, Poles, Slavs and was working on having one perfect race - blue eyes, blonde hair etc. I'm inferior in Hitler's eyes.
BTW They should bring out the soundtrack of this film - I think it's excellent and I would definitely buy it!
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manaloo
19 years ago
i agree with you on the soundtrack idea, i looked to download some of the songs, but i cannot find anything. which is a major bummer
And the hardest part, was letting go not taking part... The Hardest Part - Coldplay
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Thusnelda
19 years ago
I get what your saying total overdose02. Stalin killed opposers of his regime but Hitler killed Jews, gypsies, gays, Poles, Slavs and was working on having one perfect race - blue eyes, blonde hair etc. I'm inferior in Hitler's eyes.
Once again, it was not "only" Stalin, but e. g. Lenin and Trotzki (yes, Frida Kahlo's Trotzki) as well.
And the communists did not only murder people because they were against their regime, but simply because they existed. The terror started just after the October revolution. In the early 1920s, millions of farmers or orthodox priest were slaughtered not because they "opposed" the regime in any way, but because they simply "were there" and represented - in the stupid communist ideology - the "old order". They were victims of the ideology, just like the victims of the nazis.
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Thusnelda
19 years ago
Niall,
I received a private message from you. But I'd like to answer you in public, because I think it is important to make some points clear:
It was not me but YOU who started the "hate thing" saying you "hate the Germans". I only replied. Furthermore, I said that I feel quite uncomfortable discussing all this in a thread on Anne Frank. But you asked me about atrocities yourself.
You argue like this: I'm not a racist, except for when it comes to Germans.
My point is: All racism is wrong, that's what we should learn from the holocaust and from Anne Frank.
It is really a horrible irony that the only thing you seem to learn from Anne Frank and these horrible crimes: racism again, now against Germans. And even more tragic: Anne Frank was GERMAN - if you say that you hate all Germans you imply that you hate Anne Frank as well! The only ones who claimed that Anne Frank wasn't German because she was of jewish faith were the nazis! You just reproduce the racist nazi ideology but drawing a basic distinction between "Germans" and "Jews". There were and are Germans of many confessions: Catholics, Protestants, Atheists, Muslims, Jews, Buddhist, Hindus and many more.
Furthermore, it is racism as well not to feel sorry too for the dozens millions of murdered by the communists in the 20th century - do they deserve less commemoration because they are "only" Chinese and Russians? Or because they are not presented that often in the mass media?
I was born 30 years after the war and I cannot change the past. The only thing we can change is the future and we should do everything we can to stop racism and all kinds of stupid ideologies.
But don't worry, I will not post in this thread anymore.
Thusnelda
PS:
Just for the record:
* It was you who wrote about a war in the 19th century.
* In the "Schindler's List" board I posted in order to refute some right-wing-extremists.
* Germany did NOT wage war against Ireland.
* Anne Frank was not murdered: She died due to typhoid fever in Bergen-Belsen.
* Terrible anti-jewish-laws were in power in these days not only in Germany, but also in other European countries, e. g. Hungary. The Jews were excluded from certain professions etc. A terrible wave of anti-semitism rushed over Europe. That's why in so many countries the people handed over their Jews to the nazis.
* As the president of the State of Israel, Mr. Moshe Kazav, pointed out in his speech on the commemoration of the liberation of Auschwitz January 27th, 2005, the other countries - especially the allies KNEW about all the mass murders that were committed in the concentration camps: And they did do NOTHING, altough they definitely had the knowledge and they had the means (bombers).
* ~ 75 - 80 % of the Germans today were born after 1945, most of the others (like my parents) were only little children at the end of the war. Those who were 21 years and older are over 80 years old today.
* All elder Germans I asked (more than 100) all answered me that they either knew nothing or had heard rumours or even knew about prisoners being kept in concentration camps. But all of them (ordinary people) swore that they did not know that the prisoners were murdered there, particularly not at this terrible extent. They were all shocked when they heard about the mass murders after the war.
* Concentration camps (a British invention) unfortunately were quite common at the time - for instance, America put US-citizens of Japanese descent into concentration camps during WWII. The British even ran them in the 1950s in Kenya.
* As you referred to the British treatment of Ireland: Did you ever read "Famine" by Liam O'Flaherty?
* To treat or even just call someone else as "inferior beings" is terrible, no question. But I'd like to remind you that this language was very common that time in the past, not only in Germany but also - for instance - in America. A propos: A very renowned woman talked about "humans" (= whites = WASPs), "sub-humans" (= Catholics, Jews, people with brown skin) and "sub-sub-humans" (= Africans, African-Americans, American Indians etc.). Do you know who it was? It was Margaret Sanger, the founder of "Planned Parenthood" (PP), a famous (notorious?) US-organization for "family planning". They never distanced themselves from her founder. They claim to fight poverty and to help women, but the truth is: They want to stop "sub-humans" and "sub-sub-humans" from reproducing. They are very aggressive, list everyone who is against abortion among "extremist and terrorists" (!) and even - some time ago - in San Francisco, they had a game on their website where teenagers could kill Catholics by shooting them with condoms. This organzition is very powerful in the US, e. g. endorsed by Bill Gates and Hollywood-Stars like Kristin Davis. PP wants to produce a racist class society just as described in "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley (his half-brother Julian was one of the numerous lovers of Margaret Sanger): They want to be the "Alphas" themselves and try to reduce the number of "Deltas" and "Epsilons" to make it easier to rule over them. "Brave New World" initially wasn't written as a warning, but as a plan. - This is not about "abortion yes / no" in general, but about what THIS special organization has in mind. You think I went in-too-deep into this? Well, as a German I have learned what happens if you just look at the friendly facade and if you do not examine what some people REALLY have in mind. Thus, if you want to fight racism, for instance, find out about Margaret Sanger and PP for yourself: www.google.com.
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Thusnelda
19 years ago
Stalin may have killed more people, but Hitler's IDEOLOGY was MUCH more evil!!
What do you mean by that?
By the way: It was not only Stalin who murdered the 100 millions, but also, for instance, Lenin and Trotzki (yes, the friend of Frida Kahlo). The terror and mass murder with millions of dead kulaks (Russian farmers) started right after the October revolution.
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Thusnelda
18 years ago
Dear Niall100,
I know that it is a little bit late right now, but I accidentally came across some news, and reading them I remembered our little discussion more than a year ago. I think that this might be of interest to you...
Ever heard about this?
Irish President Offered Nazis Condolences
DUBLIN, Ireland, Dec. 30, 2005
(AP) Ireland's president during World War II offered condolences to Nazi Germany's representative in Dublin over the death of Adolf Hitler, newly declassified government records show.
Until now, historians had believed that Ireland's prime minister at the time, Eamon de Valera, was the only government leader to convey official condolences to Eduard Hempel, director of the German diplomatic corps in Ireland. De Valera's gesture _ unique among leaders of neutral nations in the final weeks of World War II _ was criticized worldwide.
The presidential protocol record for 1938-1957, made public this week within a trove of previously secret government documents, shed new light on one of the most embarrassing chapters in the history of independent Ireland _ its decision to maintain cordial relations with the Nazis even after news of the Holocaust emerged.
The new document confirmed that President Douglas Hyde visited Hempel on May 3, 1945, a day after Ireland received reports of Hitler's death.
The newly released document says Hyde _ who served as Ireland's symbolic head of state from 1938 to 1945 and died in 1949 _ visited Hempel at the diplomat's home in Dun Laoghaire, a Dublin suburb. It says the president did not send an official letter of condolence to German government headquarters because "the capital of Germany, Berlin, was under siege and no successor had been appointed."
The Republic of Ireland, then called Eire, remained neutral throughout World War II, which in local parlance was called "The Emergency."
Tens of thousands of Irishmen volunteered to serve in British military units, but many others rooted for Germany against their old imperial master Britain. The outlawed Irish Republican Army built contacts with the Nazis in an ultimately fruitless effort to receive weapons and money for insurrection in neighboring Northern Ireland, a British territory.
De Valera's government brutally suppressed the IRA but also rebuffed requests to allow Jews fleeing Nazi persecution to receive asylum in Ireland. De Valera also refused to allow Britain or the United States to use strategic Irish ports for protecting Atlantic convoys from attacks by German U-boat submarines, a policy that cost thousands of Allied seamen's lives.
In his May 1945 victory speech, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill condemned de Valera's neutrality. Churchill said Britain had considered laying "a violent hand" on neutral Ireland to seize its ports, but avoided this thanks to the crucial support of Northern Ireland, which remained part of the United Kingdom when the island was partitioned in 1921.
But de Valera argued that to refuse condolences "would have been an act of unpardonable discourtesy to the German nation and to Dr. Hempel himself. During the whole of the war, Dr. Hempel's conduct was irreproachable. ... I certainly was not going to add to his humiliation in the hour of defeat."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/30/ap/world/mainD8EQKMO00.shtml
"cordial relations with the Nazis even after news of the Holocaust emerged" -
hmmm... for a formally neutral country in WWII, Ireland was very strongly on Germany's side. ;-)
Yours,
Thusnelda
PS:
Did you read the book I recommended to you ("The Speckled People" by Hugo Hamilton) yet?
"Dublin Where the Palm Trees Grow" by the same author is worth reading, too.
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Balberith
18 years ago
I might add that you come across many people in the USA who are a mix of German and Irish ancestry.:-)
Well figuring that both peoples love potatoes and drinking its fitting I guess.LOL
"A real man would rather bow down to a strong woman than dominate a weak one"
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Thusnelda
18 years ago
I might add that you come across many people in the USA who are a mix of German and Irish ancestry.:-)
Well figuring that both peoples love potatoes and drinking its fitting I guess.LOL
Hahaha!
Very good remark, Balberith! :-)
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Balberith
18 years ago
Danke Thusnelda!:-)
"A real man would rather bow down to a strong woman than dominate a weak one"
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Lyndhen
13 years ago
quote from Thusnelda
"It is one of the greatest triumphs of modern emotional engineering that, in spite of the plain facts of the case which could never be disguised or even materially distorted, the British public, throughout the Blitz Period (1940 - 1941), remained convinced that the entire responsibility for their sufferings rested on the German leaders." [F. J. P. Veale, "Advance to Barbarism")
I'd like to congratulate on using a quote that actually exists. Unfortunately, I feel I should point out that F J P Veale was a member of the British Union of fascists.
http://www.oswaldmosley.com/fjpveale.htm
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Big_AL-96
12 years ago
London was bombed before any civilian centres in Germany were bombed. Only after London, a civilian city was bombed was the order given to bomb German cities.
Germany declared war. Hitler knew the consequences of invading Poland, in that a state of war would be declared should he do so. He still went ahead and invaded Poland.
Thinks he knows a total strangler online! .....Diablo
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